Gavilar being Dalinars opponent?

[SomePog]

So i was rereading RoW and had this thought, could Gavilar be Odiums champion? I mainly thought of this when i had the thought that Dalinar has basically succeeded in every way Dalinar has failed. He has bonded the stormfather, He brought back and united the radiants, he (Although probably in a different context than Gavilar) united the world, and even a successful marriage with Navani. 

This alongside the fact that Odium has been seen to be a planner over very long times he may have made Gavilar into a cognitive shadow and kept him somewhere (maybe a perfect gem) all this time in prep for the duel, this also works with some meta thinking that Brandon wants a major twist and probably that the duel will be a halfway point (like the siege Kholinar) 

it would also be a plausible support to the "Dalinar refuses to fight them" and maybe the character arc for Dalinar would be accepting the fact that his Brother is kinda a POS and the end for Dalinar would be killing Gavilar.

[Use the Falchion]

It's a relatively popular theory I've seen on the Shard and less so on Reddit, but I personally don't think it would happen. 

 

First off is that Dalinar no longer has any guilt about Gavilar's death. He got rid of that when fighting Szeth in WoR. Secondly, Navani's abuse at the hands of Gavilar would be all the motivation Dalinar needs to beat him. Third is that we've seen several people come back from death already, and I've seen some complaints that doing such a thing too many times makes death cheap - Gavilar would be just another example of that. 

 

Personally, I think Dalinar's arc in the next book will be about letting go of control. Wit admits that Dalinar is far too good at finding and keeping power, and it's something we've seen him do for three of the four released books. I think Dalinar will need to let go of control of the moment and the fate of Roshar and learn to leave it in the hands of others. 

[Duxredux]

1 hour ago, SomePog said:

it would also be a plausible support to the "Dalinar refuses to fight them" and maybe the character arc for Dalinar would be accepting the fact that his Brother is kinda a POS and the end for Dalinar would be killing Gavilar.

Way of Kings Prime spoiler:

Spoiler

For what it's worth, the original draft had Dalinar coming to the conclusion that Elhokar was a bad king and dueling him to the death. That was removed from the version that was eventually published with most of the structure revised. Whether or not Brandon decides to rehash this for WaT, this concept is already out there.

[SomePog]

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

First off is that Dalinar no longer has any guilt about Gavilar's death. He got rid of that when fighting Szeth in WoR. Secondly, Navani's abuse at the hands of Gavilar would be all the motivation Dalinar needs to beat him. Third is that we've seen several people come back from death already, and I've seen some complaints that doing such a thing too many times makes death cheap - Gavilar would be just another example of that. 

 

It wasnt the guilt of not defending Gavilar, what i meant was how Dalinar is one of the few characters close to him that doesnt realise Gavilar was not a good person and the arc would be Dalinar understanding that his brother was a bad person and a bad king, which i think could fit in with the "Needing to let go of power" idea since he will see qualities in Gavilar that are in him and he would accept that he isnt the best to lead.

I do agree that the abuse Navani had would def switch Dalinars opinion so thats fair alongside the too many revivals though

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

It's a relatively popular theory I've seen on the Shard and less so on Reddit, but I personally don't think it would happen. 

First off is that Dalinar no longer has any guilt about Gavilar's death. He got rid of that when fighting Szeth in WoR. Secondly, Navani's abuse at the hands of Gavilar would be all the motivation Dalinar needs to beat him. Third is that we've seen several people come back from death already, and I've seen some complaints that doing such a thing too many times makes death cheap - Gavilar would be just another example of that. 

Personally, I think Dalinar's arc in the next book will be about letting go of control. Wit admits that Dalinar is far too good at finding and keeping power, and it's something we've seen him do for three of the four released books. I think Dalinar will need to let go of control of the moment and the fate of Roshar and learn to leave it in the hands of others. 

Yes, it's a very popular theory, so popular that there was a topic made just a few days ago supporting this theory, discussing heavy spoilers from the KoWT Prologue - if you're interested here's the topic, and here's Prologue to Stormlight book five.

Personally I think it's very unlikely. In RoW ch 114 Taravangian spotted the loophole in the contract saying: 

Quote

It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities—so subtle—that his predecessor had missed. Yes … Dalinar has set himself up … to fail. I can beat him.

For Gavilor-Champion theory to work it would have to be Rayse who took Gavilar's soul, invested him and made him into Fused/CS, which means this was his plan all along. It wasn't. Rayse wanted Dalinar to be his first champion and then Kaladin, both of those plots failed. Rayse wasn't prepared even for Dalinar refusing him, he didn't predict Dalinar Ascending at all (he said that to Taravangian in OB). Rayse would have no reasons to make Gavilar into CS after his death (or at least keep his soul). For Gavilar to be CS it would have to be Rayse who invested him, so this isn't "a possibility Taravangian's predecessor had missed" anymore and Taravangian can't bring back a soul that went into the Beyond - nobody can do this. 

I don't see any foreshadowing for this theory. Except for the fact that they are brothers, this wouldn't achieve much. Both Navani and the Stormfather can tell Dalinar how terrible Gavilar really was, that he worked with the Sons of Honor to bring Desolations back, he abused people close to him, including Navani and Dalinar, potentially Jasnah as well, and so many other things that Dalinar would have no problems in finding motivation to kill him. And Dalinar was always a better fighter than Gavilar. The stakes are just too low for this to happen. 

 

[coolsnow7]

On 1/21/2024 at 7:20 PM, SomePog said:

So i was rereading RoW and had this thought, could Gavilar be Odiums champion? I mainly thought of this when i had the thought that Dalinar has basically succeeded in every way Dalinar has failed. He has bonded the stormfather, He brought back and united the radiants, he (Although probably in a different context than Gavilar) united the world, and even a successful marriage with Navani. 

This alongside the fact that Odium has been seen to be a planner over very long times he may have made Gavilar into a cognitive shadow and kept him somewhere (maybe a perfect gem) all this time in prep for the duel, this also works with some meta thinking that Brandon wants a major twist and probably that the duel will be a halfway point (like the siege Kholinar) 

it would also be a plausible support to the "Dalinar refuses to fight them" and maybe the character arc for Dalinar would be accepting the fact that his Brother is kinda a POS and the end for Dalinar would be killing Gavilar.

I’ve been playing with this idea. I think there’s something to it. Gavilar would need to be alive, which is not impossible but not obvious from the prologue. (At the same time, Brandon has hinted pretty heavily towards that in the prologues…) Anyway he’d need to have been heavily invested at his death. Not impossible but not obvious how.

 

Secondly it’s not clear how having Gavilar as the champion helps Odium achieve his goals. It’s clear to approximately everyone that Dalinar is the better fighter. Again not impossible - we don’t know anything (and all the theories around it are junk) about how Odium plans to win - but not obvious yet.

 

Bottom line I’m starting to think this is correct just because the foreshadowing is so goddamn heavy. But what it means in terms of the rest of the story, I got nothing. It’s kind of a meaningless piece of the puzzle right now.

On 1/22/2024 at 9:05 AM, alder24 said:

 

I don't see any foreshadowing for this theory. 

 

Have we read the same prologues?

[alder24]

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Have we read the same prologues?

Yes, just because prologues focus on Gavilar's assassination isn't enough evidence for me, especially considering KoWT prologue. Dalinar has no conflict related to Gavilar anymore, the only one he had was resolved at the end of WoR and that was just guilt of being drunk that night. As you pointed out, choosing Gavilar as Odium's champion brings nothing that could help Taravangian. If Dalinar was struggling with living up to his brother's name, or with having guilt for stealing his brother's wife, not being able to protect his brother's son or anything like that, then that's a foreshadowing, a conflict to be resolved - but this is all absent. 

[coolsnow7]

On 1/24/2024 at 9:00 AM, alder24 said:

Yes, just because prologues focus on Gavilar's assassination isn't enough evidence for me, especially considering KoWT prologue. Dalinar has no conflict related to Gavilar anymore, the only one he had was resolved at the end of WoR and that was just guilt of being drunk that night. As you pointed out, choosing Gavilar as Odium's champion brings nothing that could help Taravangian. If Dalinar was struggling with living up to his brother's name, or with having guilt for stealing his brother's wife, not being able to protect his brother's son or anything like that, then that's a foreshadowing, a conflict to be resolved - but this is all absent. 

KoWT prologue is literally called “To Live” lol. 

[alder24]

5 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

KoWT prologue is literally called “To Live” lol. 

And yet he died at the end, as all men have to. 

[Banazir864]

At first I misread your post as "Gavinor" and thought this was that theory again.  So, kudos for a new and creative theory.

But, yeah, I agree that this is unlikely.  If Odium had Gavilar all this time, why didn't he bring him out earlier?  Think of the chaos it would cause if Gavilar came back and demanded the crown, especially if he was secretly working for Odium.  And it's not like Rayse would have been saving Gavilar to be a surprise champion:  As some of the other posters have noted, that line from Taravangian implies that Taravangian's champion is someone Rayse didn't think of.  This is further supported by the lengths Rayse went to to recruit Dalinar and Kaladin as his champion, which would have been pointless if Rayse already had a champion lined up.  Even if Dalinar was Plan A and Gavilar was a secret Plan B, it would make more sense to use Gavilar's return to try to turn Dalinar rather than hold him in reserve, especially since Gavilar's return would destroy Dalinar's relationship with Navani.

[Dofurion]

I think I can put a twist on this. What if he is a clone of Gavilar?

Let me explain: the general plot of another cosmere book revolves around replicating the soul (I know the book I am referring to may be obvious, but I don't put it because it is not the general thread), so a Shard could not grab and create an entity based on all the information left in the spiritual realm about that person who has already gone to the beyond (something like a carbon copy)

[Iron-Eyes]

So, you mean taking the imprint that the soul has left in the spiritual world and using that as kind of mould, and filling it with investiture?

[Dofurion]

7 minutes ago, Iron-Eyes said:

So, you mean taking the imprint that the soul has left in the spiritual world and using that as kind of mould, and filling it with investiture?

Exactly. In addition, this gives us the advantage that even if it is not Gavilar, it would allow us to create based on him (or anyone, really) a "person" perfectly designed to be able to bond the Unmade. You know, nine shadows

…Although such a creature may not be stable.

[MadMax634]

I honestly don't think that Oduim champion will be Gavilar, It could very well be Elhokar though there was certainly enough time for Elhokar to be brought back to life with the Fabrial thingy.

I think that Use the Falchion was right about this:

On 1/21/2024 at 4:47 PM, Use the Falchion said:

Personally, I think Dalinar's arc in the next book will be about letting go of control. Wit admits that Dalinar is far too good at finding and keeping power, and it's something we've seen him do for three of the four released books. I think Dalinar will need to let go of control of the moment and the fate of Roshar and learn to leave it in the hands of others. 

And that Dalinar letting up power will be letting Adolin fight as Dalinar's champion.  Either Dalinar will allow Adolin to fight Oduim champion or Adolin will somehow go behind Dalinar's back and fight. In RoW, it seemed like they were setting up Adolin to have a larger part in the next book with him getting more screen time and more POV time.

 

[Master Silver]

23 hours ago, MadMax634 said:

I honestly don't think that Oduim champion will be Gavilar, It could very well be Elhokar though there was certainly enough time for Elhokar to be brought back to life with the Fabrial thingy.

I think that Use the Falchion was right about this:

And that Dalinar letting up power will be letting Adolin fight as Dalinar's champion.  Either Dalinar will allow Adolin to fight Oduim champion or Adolin will somehow go behind Dalinar's back and fight. In RoW, it seemed like they were setting up Adolin to have a larger part in the next book with him getting more screen time and more POV time.

 

I also think it will be very hard for Adolin to travel all the way back to Urithiru without an Honor spren trying to collect him. After all he is very honorable. And having a living spren may in some ways help the dead-eye spren you are bonded too (maybe it makes it easier to swear oaths). But that is a double edged sword, because as Odium sais, the power will bind you eventually.

[Colors]

Yeah, I don't buy it will be Gavilar. What would that add but cheap shock value?

Besides, as others have laid out far more eloquently than me...it just doesn't add up.