Stormlight Archive: Wind and Truth Prediction

CtrlAltDepressed · January 18, 2024

Hello Fellow Theorists,

**SPOILERS FOR EVERYTHING STORMLIGHT INCLUDING PROLOGUE**

I have a theory about who Odiums champion will be in SA5 - Gavilar.

Now, hear me out. We see in the prologue that Gavilar is interacting with the 'stormfather'. My friend and I are both in agreement that is NOT the stormfather, simply based on the fact that the character in the prologue is nothing like the character bonded to Dalinar. We can be very confident Dals is the true stormfather given that he opens Honors perpendicularity.

So, who is the fake stormfather? We believe it is Odium, or a servant of Odium, 'helping' Gavilar find the words to become a Herald. However, Szeth had other plans and ends Gavilars quest to be a Herald prematurely. I believe it is Odium due to when Gavilar says 'I NEED this' and 'stormfather' says 'Those are almost the words.' which implies to me that the correct words were 'I WANT this', playing into the weird permissions restrictions of shards as well as Odium viewing himself as Passion.

My thought is this, assuming that was Odium (by that I mean him or his forces) then Gavilar would have had a decently strong Connection to Odium. We have seen that when a shard is Connected to someone, they can interject themselves at the time of death before the spirit fully moves to the Beyond. Im proposing that due to this Connection, Odium caught Gavilar before he was dead dead and convinced / tricked him into becoming a fused.

Further evidence of this can be seen when Todium ascends, he mentions that he can see the contingencies that Rodium had put into place and knows how he is going to use them.

I think Rodium was keeping fused Gavilar in his back pocket in the event that he did have to do the contest of champions, since that was not his first choice.

I dont have much actual evidence for this, but I think that scene would be SO COOL. We know Dalinar has chosen himself....he shows up to the fighting ground, and his 'dead' brother is there to fight him for the fate of Roshar. That would play into the character arcs of Navani, Dalinar, and Jasnah. Each of these characters had many things left unsaid to Gavilar, and this would be the perfect opportunity to further explore those relationships. Especially since Navani spent so much time in Rhythm figuring out how to kill fused for good.

Let me know what you all think!

Voidlit Man · January 18, 2024

WOB

Questioner

Can a Shard hold on to the Cognitive Shadow of a person for later use?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that can indeed happen.

Questioner

Without it being fully Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

You don’t have to fully Invest it, no. They would have to do some Investing shenanigans, but what you’re asking is quite possible, very possible.

So, for instance, let me give you a corner case. You might be asking: could Endowment send somebody back later than immediately after they have passed away? The answer would be “yes.”

I’m gonna tell you, I have no immediate plans to do that, but it is possible within the framework of the cosmere.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

This confirms that you can hold a cognitive shadow "in reserve", but the last bit makes me think that if Gavilar was to come back, he would either have to be a cognitive shadow the whole time, or somehow revived in a similar manner to Szeth. If Gavilar was brought back, what powers would he have? Do you think he would be a normal fused, one with all the powers, or one with specifically bondsmith powers? I know that a Bondsmith Fused has never happened before, but with a new Odium, it might be possible.

CtrlAltDepressed · January 18, 2024

3 minutes ago, Voidlit Man said:

This confirms that you can hold a cognitive shadow "in reserve", but the last bit makes me think that if Gavilar was to come back, he would either have to be a cognitive shadow the whole time

Arent the Heralds and Fused already considered cognitive shadows?

3 minutes ago, Voidlit Man said:

Do you think he would be a normal fused, one with all the powers, or one with specifically bondsmith powers?

The vision of the champion and nine shadows would seem to suggest he will be something new, considering he has shardplate and we havent seen that on a fused yet.

listerfeend · January 18, 2024

14 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The vision of the champion and nine shadows would seem to suggest he will be something new, considering he has shardplate and we havent seen that on a fused yet.

Moash has Shardplate, and is thoroughly team Odium, right? The Shardplate in the vision could very well be his. Dalinar feels something very familiar about the eyes of the champion in that vision too. That could definitely have been either a twisted reflection of himself, or Gavilar at this point...

Master Silver · January 18, 2024

Not sure how many breaths Vasher is carrying these days, but sure would be nice to give Dalinar a boost. Although you could argue stormlight does the same thing. I think Gavilar's name has come up too much for him not to be Odium's champion. If Gavilar has gotten to see events play out over the past (7 or 8 ?) years from the eyes of Odium, he would have every reason to hate Dalinar (took his wife and kingdom, acomplished what he could not in bringing back the Radiants and got his son killed). It reminds me of what Morgoth did to Hurin.

alder24 · January 18, 2024

43 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Now, hear me out. We see in the prologue that Gavilar is interacting with the 'stormfather'. My friend and I are both in agreement that is NOT the stormfather, simply based on the fact that the character in the prologue is nothing like the character bonded to Dalinar. We can be very confident Dals is the true stormfather given that he opens Honors perpendicularity.

Disagree 100%. Spren can change and Stormfather in the Gavilar prologue isn't that different from the Dalinar's Stormfather. And SF told Gavilar that "If I try again, I will do it differently.," which explains differences. Gavilar saw the Stormfather as the shimmering, the SF felt Herald dying and that was very shocking and agonizing, even lightning appeared. SF tried to hide the fact that the Herald had died and wasn't prepared for this. SF even said to Gavilar that "he can't order him around" when he was asked to watch the door but did that anyway - something very similar to how Dalinar's Stormfather did on multiple occasions.

Dalinar opened Honor's perpendicularity while being a Bondsmith and opening perpendicularity is a Bondsmith power. Gavilar was no Bondsmith.

47 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

So, who is the fake stormfather? We believe it is Odium, or a servant of Odium, 'helping' Gavilar find the words to become a Herald

So why would the Stormfaker Odium be so surprised and devastated by Gavilar, when he said that he would just immediately break and let Fused back onto Roshar instead of holding them back in Damnation? That's not what Odium would do.

Quote

That is true. I do not speak in human ways. But still, once you are a...Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns. Why is it this doesn’t bother you?
Gavilar shrugged. “I will just give in.”
What?
“Give in,” Gavilar said, heaving himself out of his seat. “Why stay in that other place, to be tortured and potentially lose my mind? I give up each time and return immediately.”
The Heralds stay in Damnation to keep the Voidbringers away. To prevent them from overrunning the world. To lock them and seal them away. They—
“They are the ten fools for that,” Gavilar explained, pouring himself a drink from the carafe near his balcony. “If I cannot die, I will be the greatest king this world has ever known. Why lock my knowledge and leadership away on another world?”
To stop the war.
“Why would I care to stop a war?” Gavilar asked, this time genuinely amused. “War is the path to glory, to training our people to recover the Tranquiline Halls. I will never die, and never know that place, but my people...well they should be properly trained, don’t you think?” He turned back to the shimmer, taking a sip of orange wine. “I don’t fear these Voidbringers. Let them stay and fight. If they are reborn, well, we will just never run out of enemies to kill.”
The Stormfather did not respond. And again, Gavilar tried to read into the thing’s posture. Was the Stormfather proud of him? Gavilar thought this an elegant solution to the problem; he was uncertain why the Heralds had never realized it. Perhaps they were all cowards.
Ah, Gavilar, the Stormfather said. I see. I see my miscalculation. Your entire religious upbringing...created from the lies of Aharietiam... It pointed you toward this conclusion. Terrible though it is.
Damnation. The Stormfather wasn’t pleased. Gavilar recalculated. He couldn’t afford to let the Stormfather seem him as anything but devout. It suddenly felt terribly unfair. Here, he was drinking this awful excuse for wine to follow the ridiculous codes, he gave every possible oblation of piety—and yet, it wasn’t enough?

51 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I believe it is Odium due to when Gavilar says 'I NEED this' and 'stormfather' says 'Those are almost the words.' which implies to me that the correct words were 'I WANT this', playing into the weird permissions restrictions of shards as well as Odium viewing himself as Passion.

It's not the words that matter, it's the intent. You must mean and believe in the words you're saying and this was Gavilar's first time when he said words which he truly meant, that weren't just a random guess.

Quote

Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”
The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.
“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”
So close. And so far.
[...]
It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong.

55 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

My thought is this, assuming that was Odium (by that I mean him or his forces) then Gavilar would have had a decently strong Connection to Odium.

The biggest problem with this is for Odium to do stuff like we see in the prologue, Odium needs a really, really strong Connection to that person and Gavilar had no way of gaining that Connection. It took Odium decades to establish this proper Connection to Dalinar. Odium can't just show himself to anyone, he needs that Connection - that's why he couldn't directly influence Kaladin in RoW, he did this using Moash's Connection. How would Gavilar gain that Connection to Odium in the first place?

Moreover before the True Desolation started, Odium would be locked away from Roshar, stuck on Braize - it would be even harder for him to show himself on Roshar and interact with Gavilar in any way.

RoW I-4:

Quote

OUR CONNECTION GROWS STRONGER, Odium said. I HAVEN’T NEEDED A STORM TO BRING YOU INTO A VISION FOR MONTHS NOW, VYRE. I USUALLY DO IT FOR TRADITION’S SAKE
[...]
“Could you show him anything?”
I HAVEN’T THE CONNECTION TO HIM. Odium considered, humming softly to a rhythm. I SEE A WAY. THERE ARE HOLES IN HIS SOUL. SOMEONE COULD GET IN. SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HIM, SOMEONE CONNECTED TO HIM. SOMEONE WHO FEELS AS HE DOES.

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Further evidence of this can be seen when Todium ascends, he mentions that he can see the contingencies that Rodium had put into place and knows how he is going to use them.

That was about Rayse's plans for the whole Cosmere, Taravangian's loophole relies on something that Rayse had missed - Gavilar is then unlikely to be the answer, RoW ch 114:

Quote

But … beyond that, what of the entire cosmere? He couldn’t see that far yet. Perhaps he would eventually be able to. But he did know his predecessor’s plans, and had access to some of his knowledge. So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presided over by broken gods
There was so much to do. He sorted through Odium’s previous plans and saw all their flaws. How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? How had he let himself rely so much upon a contest of champions? Didn’t he know? The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control.
It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities—so subtle—that his predecessor had missed. Yes … Dalinar has set himself up … to fail. I can beat him.

I personally think that the very last words of the prologue seal the idea of Gavilar as the champion of Odium:

Quote

And in the end, Gavilar Kholin, heir to the Heralds, died. As all men, ultimately, must.
Alone.

CtrlAltDepressed · January 19, 2024

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

So why would the Stormfaker Odium be so surprised and devastated by Gavilar, when he said that he would just immediately break and let Fused back onto Roshar instead of holding them back in Damnation? That's not what Odium would do.

Because he is trying to reasonably impersonate a splinter of Honor is my best guess to be honest.

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

The biggest problem with this is for Odium to do stuff like we see in the prologue, Odium needs a really, really strong Connection to that person and Gavilar had no way of gaining that Connection. It took Odium decades to establish this proper Connection to Dalinar.

Gavilar conquered his kingdom right alongside Dalinar, and was no stranger to the thrill. He was cosmere aware to an extent, knew an abnormal amount of details about the oathpact, was in possession of an anti-stormlight sphere, and was actively searching for an unmade. Navani and Aesudon both note he had been studying these things for many years, if i remember correctly since he conquered Alethkar and ' settled down. All this makes me think he could have had a strong Connection to Odium.

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? How had he let himself rely so much upon a contest of champions?

This makes me think Rodium was not considering a contest of champions in his overall strategy. We know Rodium wanted off Roshar as soon as possible, but we dont know Todiums overall plans. There is implication he plans to rule the cosmere as Rodium did, but the mamner in which he does that could be entirely different. What I mean by that is something like Rodium was hyper focused on breaking out of whatever is trapping him there (presumably doesnt want to leave a huge chunk of investiture), however Todium, in his heightened Ascension power, can see more clearly, and has more long term plans than just shattering every other shard (although that is probably part of the plan).

I could see Dalinar breaking the oath of champions due to it being his dead brother. If Gavilar played as if he was unwilling or tortured (maybe he actually is) Dalinar might not be able to kill him without breaking his bondsmith oaths, thus Todium wins either way.

17 hours ago, listerfeend said:

Moash has Shardplate, and is thoroughly team Odium, right?

Could be a powerup from Odium specifically for the contest to make it more even? Alethi duels traditionally are between full shardbearers.

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

And in the end, Gavilar Kholin, heir to the Heralds, died. As all men, ultimately, must.
Alone.

Spoiler

Kelsier was described as dead and he persists. Plus, this would be a Returned situation, where they have actually died.

Edited January 19, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed

alder24 · January 19, 2024

11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Because he is trying to reasonably impersonate a splinter of Honor is my best guess to be honest.

Then he should have stayed quiet and not tried to change Gavilar's mind and convinced him of the value of being tortured for eternity. We know who the Stormfather is, Gavilar didn't, Gavilar had no idea how to impress the Stormfather and he thought being pious will work - it didn't. Gavilar didn't even know that the recovery of the Tranquiline Halls isn't real. Odium could have just said “oh I see your point, maybe that will work,” or something like that and Gavilar would have believed in that.

The fact that the Stormfather reacted this way proves that it wasn't Odium who impersonated him.

11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Gavilar conquered his kingdom right alongside Dalinar, and was no stranger to the thrill.

But Gavilar wasn't the target of the Thrill, he wasn't shaped by the Thrill, he wasn't bloodthirsty like Dalinar was and he wasn't broken by his own actions. Just being under Thrill's influence isn't enough.

11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

He was cosmere aware to an extent, knew an abnormal amount of details about the oathpact

Disagree, he thought he knew. He failed to realize that Restares is Kalak, that Nale is a Herald as well, despite them not hiding it from him. He was blinded by religion. He thought that the Oathpact wasn't broken and that Taln would be the reason for it being broken in the future. Gavilar was just wrong.

Quote

Those Words. The most important ones Gavilar would ever say. When he found the right ones, he would be accepted into the Oathpact, and ascend beyond mortality. He had not yet asked which Herald he would replace; it felt crass, and he did not want to appear crass before the Stormfather. He suspected, though, he would replace Talenelat, the one who had not left his Blade before striking into the world, then dying. After all, it seemed his actions—being out of line with the others—were most in danger of breaking the Oathpact.

11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

was in possession of an anti-stormlight sphere

True and that's another problem for Odium-the-Stormfaker. If that was really Odium then Odium would know how to create anti-light and wouldn't need Raboniel to do that.

11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

This makes me think Rodium was not considering a contest of champions in his overall strategy.

Of course he Raysed considered the contest in his plans but his chosen champions slipped out of his hands twice - Dalinar and Kaladin. Then he had to agree to terms that weren't favorable no matter the outcome, because his Shard was pushing strongly against him. Rayse was in conflict with his own power and couldn't deley it any longer, he wasn't as smart as Taravangian and was blined by the power so he simply couldn't figure any better solution. Taravangian could and did.

11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

We know Rodium wanted off Roshar as soon as possible

Not entirely true. Odium is now fully invested and committed to Roshar. He can't just leave. What he wants is to be freed of Honor's restraints, which don't just bind him to Roshar, but also prevents him from using his powers at full potential. He wants to use Roshar as his training camp for his army that is meant to conquer Cosmere in his name. He needs Roshar. OB ch 57:

Quote

“And what are the consequences of my releasing you?”
“Well, first I’d see to Cultivation’s death. There would be … other consequences, as you call them, as well.” [...]
A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.

RoW ch 112:

Quote

the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. [...]
Odium chuckled softly, rotating his scepter beneath his hand so the butt ground against the golden stone at their feet. “Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?”
“To destroy us.”
“Why would I want to destroy you? I am your god, Dalinar.” Odium shook his head, staring into the infinite golden distance. “I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not for one people or one miserable windswept continent. A battle of the gods. A battle for everything.
“Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as hardened as I have made you.”

Spoiler

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet. He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things. Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process. So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I could see Dalinar breaking the oath of champions due to it being his dead brother. If Gavilar played as if he was unwilling or tortured (maybe he actually is) Dalinar might not be able to kill him without breaking his bondsmith oaths, thus Todium wins either way.

If Rayse was planning to use Gavilar as his champion (which we know isn't true because Dalinar was meant to be his champion) then Taravangian wouldn't consider his loophole to be "a possibility Rayse had missed." Therefore Rayse didn't want to use Gavilar, so he didn't make him into Fused, nor did he hold onto his soul and that simply means that Gavilar's soul slipped into the Beyond and now is beyond anyone's reach. Taravangian can't make Gavilar into his champion if Rayse hadn't planned for this to happen - he didn't.

Yes, I agree, Dalinar seeing Gavilar as Odium's champion would mess everything up and he might want to refuse to fight him or kill him. But he's not the only person that would have such an effect on Dalinar.

11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier was described as dead and he persists. Plus, this would be a Returned situation, where they have actually died.

Spoilers from other series are not allowed on this sub-forum. Please edit your post (top-right of your post, 3 dot menu -> edit) and put this in a spoiler box with a proper warning before it.

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

There were multiple hints throughout HoA that Kelsier is still out there and is helping the crew, like Spook talking to him in the dream. There are no hints like that about Gavilar.

CtrlAltDepressed · January 19, 2024

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Not entirely true. Odium is now fully invested and committed to Roshar. He can't just leave. What he wants is to be freed of Honor's restraints, which don't just bind him to Roshar, but also prevents him from using his powers at full potential. He wants to use Roshar as his training camp for his army that is meant to conquer Cosmere in his name. He needs Roshar. OB ch 57:

Quote

“And what are the consequences of my releasing you?”
“Well, first I’d see to Cultivation’s death. There would be … other consequences, as you call them, as well.” [...]
A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.

If im following the general sentiment of what youve put here (great stuff btw), you would be in the camp that thinks SA5 is going to end with Odium 'winning'? I would agree with that if so.

MASSIVE future cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

We see the Radiant in the sequel to sixth of the dusk using void / warlight many years in the future, so we know Odium at the very least is still around.

"The room remained still, Sapling carefully edging his hand away from his sidearm. "I do not envy your decision," the armored alien said. "You've been thrust into a conflict you do not understand. But like a child who has found himself in the middle of a war zone, you will have to decide which direction to run. I will return in one month, local time."

The colored portion of the creature's armor started to glow more brightly, a deep violet that seemed far too inviting a color to come from this strange being." (sixth of the dusk sequel)

To me it seems like Odium has won and this is us seeing him expand to conquer the cosmere.

alder24 · January 19, 2024

6 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

If im following the general sentiment of what youve put here (great stuff btw), you would be in the camp that thinks SA5 is going to end with Odium 'winning'? I would agree with that if so.

Not entirely. Yes, he will win against Dalinar but I believe by doing that Taravangian will deadeye the Stormfather, which will cause endless Weeping, causing flooding that will destroy Kharbranth, thus Odium will break the deal with Taravangian and that will either be exploited by the Coalition, or it will force Odium to withdraw for a time being.

Spoiler

On 12/6/2022 at 2:41 PM, alder24 said:

Unfortunately I think Dalinar might get killed, hurt or broken. But the reason I think that would be the case is so many Death Rattles predicting that something bad will happen to the Stromfather. He will suffer, maybe become a deadeye, be shattered, or be ripped off from Roshar completely - there are too many Death Rattles suggesting something like this. Stormlight will be gone, Highstorms will be gone. Only endless Weeping and darkness will remain.

Quote

The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather!

I'm cold. Mother, I'm cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop?

Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.

The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule!

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms—illuminate the silence above.

Expand

And there is this Death Rattle:

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

It also refers to water raising. I think that whatever Todium will do to Dalinar and to the Stormfather causing endless Weeping, would flood Roshar and unintentionally lead to flooding and destruction of Kharbranth. This will mean breaking of the deal between Odium and Taravangian, hurting and exposing Odium in process, making him unable to act and susceptible to attacks. Todium destroying Kharbranth would be very poetic and fitting. Every time when he was emotional and passionate, he cried easily, "they were his own tears".

Future Cosmere spoilers, SotD2:

Spoiler

18 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

MASSIVE future cosmere spoilers:

Hide contents

We see the Radiant in the sequel to sixth of the dusk using void / warlight many years in the future, so we know Odium at the very least is still around.

Quote

"The room remained still, Sapling carefully edging his hand away from his sidearm. "I do not envy your decision," the armored alien said. "You've been thrust into a conflict you do not understand. But like a child who has found himself in the middle of a war zone, you will have to decide which direction to run. I will return in one month, local time."

The colored portion of the creature's armor started to glow more brightly, a deep violet that seemed far too inviting a color to come from this strange being." (sixth of the dusk sequel)

To me it seems like Odium has won and this is us seeing him expand to conquer the cosmere.

Yes, that looks like Warlight/Voidlight. But one thing to consider, Radiant Shardplates glow in the color of their Order's glyph, for Skybreakers this is gray (we've seen in Dalinar's visions that Radiants of different order have their plate glow in a different light). I don't know from where the violet-blue color came from, but the deep violet is most likely Warlight/Voidlight when he was Lashing himself up.

Quote

Armor of a futuristic cast, smooth and bright with a soft violet-blue glowing at the joints. The helmet glowed at the front with a slit-like visor, and an arcane symbol, remind Dusk vaguely of a bird in flight, etched the front of the breastplate. [...]
The colored portion of the creature's armor started to glow more brightly, a deep violet that seemed far too inviting a color to come from this strange being. He lifted into the air a few inches...

It's too early for Odium to fully win on Roshar, there are 5 more books to go.

NH2316 · January 19, 2024

19 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I dont have much actual evidence for this, but I think that scene would be SO COOL. We know Dalinar has chosen himself....he shows up to the fighting ground, and his 'dead' brother is there to fight him for the fate of Roshar. That would play into the character arcs of Navani, Dalinar, and Jasnah. Each of these characters had many things left unsaid to Gavilar, and this would be the perfect opportunity to further explore those relationships.

Discussions of mechanistic plausibility aside, I do like the idea of everyone gets revenge on Gavilar for F&*%& so many things up and being such a jerk to everyone who ever loved him. That said, that feels very neat and happy to me in a way I don't personally expect to happen.

40 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

If im following the general sentiment of what youve put here (great stuff btw), you would be in the camp that thinks SA5 is going to end with Odium 'winning'? I would agree with that if so.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

39 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

If im following the general sentiment of what youve put here (great stuff btw), you would be in the camp that thinks SA5 is going to end with Odium 'winning'? I would agree with that if so.

Not entirely. Yes, he will win against Dalinar but I believe by doing that Taravangian will deadeye the Stormfather, which will cause endless Weeping, causing flooding that will destroy Kharbranth, thus Odium will break the deal with Taravangian and that will either be exploited by the Coalition, or it will force Odium to withdraw for a time being.

Reveal hidden contents

On 12/6/2022 at 8:41 AM, alder24 said:

Unfortunately I think Dalinar might get killed, hurt or broken. But the reason I think that would be the case is so many Death Rattles predicting that something bad will happen to the Stromfather. He will suffer, maybe become a deadeye, be shattered, or be ripped off from Roshar completely - there are too many Death Rattles suggesting something like this. Stormlight will be gone, Highstorms will be gone. Only endless Weeping and darkness will remain.

Quote

The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather!

I'm cold. Mother, I'm cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop?

Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.

The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule!

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms—illuminate the silence above.

Expand Expand

And there is this Death Rattle:

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

It also refers to water raising. I think that whatever Todium will do to Dalinar and to the Stormfather causing endless Weeping, would flood Roshar and unintentionally lead to flooding and destruction of Kharbranth. This will mean breaking of the deal between Odium and Taravangian, hurting and exposing Odium in process, making him unable to act and susceptible to attacks. Todium destroying Kharbranth would be very poetic and fitting. Every time when he was emotional and passionate, he cried easily, "they were his own tears".

Future Cosmere spoilers, SotD2:

I do expect SA5 ends in tragedy - if not an overt version of "Odium Wins", at least "Odium doesn't lose and therein survives to do everything he wants to in the cosmere once the Space Age rolls around". It's an end to an arc (SA1-5), but also a midpoint in the overall SA.....that just seems like too great a chance to end on tragedy to pass up (for presumably some kind of redemption arc in SA6-10). Who know, though?

CtrlAltDepressed · January 19, 2024

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Spoiler

Yes, that looks like Warlight/Voidlight. But one thing to consider, Radiant Shardplates glow in the color of their Order's glyph, for Skybreakers this is gray (we've seen in Dalinar's visions that Radiants of different order have their plate glow in a different light). I don't know from where the violet-blue color came from, but the deep violet is most likely Warlight/Voidlight when he was Lashing himself up.

Spoiler

Do you think this points to a joining of the shards Honor and Odium? How else would a Radiant be using warlight to fuel surges? Seems like a lot of work to meld the lights together if he couldve just used stormlight, but if warlight was now being produced instead of stormlight.....

23 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

That said, that feels very neat and happy to me in a way I don't personally expect to happen.

thats a very good point

Edited January 19, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed

alder24 · January 19, 2024

3 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Spoiler

Do you think this points to a joining of the shards Honor and Odium? How else would a Radiant be using warlight to fuel surges? Seems like a lot of work to meld the lights together if he couldve just used stormlight, but if warlight was now being produced instead of stormlight.....

Yes.

listerfeend · January 19, 2024

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Not entirely. Yes, he will win against Dalinar but I believe by doing that Taravangian will deadeye the Stormfather, which will cause endless Weeping, causing flooding that will destroy Kharbranth, thus Odium will break the deal with Taravangian and that will either be exploited by the Coalition, or it will force Odium to withdraw for a time being.

I'm a little confused by this. You seem to be indicating that the Shard itself, not the vessel Rayse, made an agreement with Taravangian to save Kharbranth. So, I guess my confusion is, why would the deal that T had with R have any bearing now? Or are you saying that just because Todium is still bound by whatever agreements Rayse made for things like not attacking Hoid? So basically, Tod is bound to preserve Kharbranth still, and you think his actions could cause the destruction of Kharbranth, thus weakening Tod in some way? Does that about sum it up?

Which leads to a secondary question. The pact was specifically that Odium would spare the city and any human born there and their spouse. If an indirect action of Tod, like him somehow making a dead eye out of the Stormfather, causes the destruction...does that count as Odium breaking the pact? Rod specifically said

Quote

“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?"

-Emphasis mine

I'm not sure how pedantic they get to be, but, if I can interpret a secondary consequence of a previous action as "Not Odium actively destroying or killing anyone in the city" I'm sure T's perspective could take that into account, right? I know that, when asked about Honor being able to defy whatever agreement between the 16 to not settle with each other, Brandon basically said "He would say he did keep to that agreement" (I can't find the specific WoB right this instance). That does imply that whatever agreements are made by Shards, binding though they may be, they ARE up for interpretation by the Vessel/Shard/Intent

Edited January 19, 2024 by listerfeend
forgot a word

alder24 · January 19, 2024

34 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I'm a little confused by this. You seem to be indicating that the Shard itself, not the vessel Rayse, made an agreement with Taravangian to save Kharbranth. So, I guess my confusion is, why would the deal that T had with R have any bearing now?

For the same reason Taravangian is bound by the deal Rayse made with Dalinar or Taravangian can't hurt Hoid - those oaths are binding the Shard itself. A Vessel isn't separate from the Shard, they are intertwined and a Vessel is just the mind controlling the power and it's the power that is Connected to all. Taravangian is a Shard now, he is Odium and he is bound by the same oaths Odium is bound - this includes all oaths that Rayse made because Rayse was Odium too. RoW ch 114:

Quote

He could end this war. Storms, Dalinar and Odium’s contract—which bound Taravangian just as soundly—would do that already.

44 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Or are you saying that just because Todium is still bound by whatever agreements Rayse made for things like not attacking Hoid? So basically, Tod is bound to preserve Kharbranth still, and you think his actions could cause the destruction of Kharbranth, thus weakening Tod in some way? Does that about sum it up?

Yes and yes.

46 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Which leads to a secondary question. The pact was specifically that Odium would spare the city and any human born there and their spouse. If an indirect action of Tod, like him somehow making a dead eye out of the Stormfather, causes the destruction...does that count as Odium breaking the pact? Rod specifically said

In my opinion yes.

47 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I'm sure T's perspective could take that into account, right?

Yes, perception matters. But in this case the destruction of Kharbranth would be the result of Taravangian's action causing the death of the Stormfather. The only one who would be responsible for the city's destruction is Taravangian. If you kill an entity responsible for controlling the weather you are just asking for a catastrophe to happen. Taravangian loves and wants to preserve his city and family so badly that it's very likely he will blame himself for its destruction. He cares for those people even if he used them to achieve his goals.

51 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I know that, when asked about Honor being able to defy whatever agreement between the 16 to not settle with each other, Brandon basically said "He would say he did keep to that agreement" (I can't find the specific WoB right this instance).

Yes, but this wasn't a binding oath but an agreement, which even allowed Shards to agree to settle together. Honor and Cultivation agreed to settle together and later they even allowed Odium to settle on Roshar too. But Odium was Splintering Shards using the fact that they had settled together, thus breaking the agreement as the justification - which gave him an edge. This also means that even if Taravangin won't consider himself responsible for the destruction of Kharbranth, others can argue that he is and that will give them an edge in fighting - a very dangerous edge.

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

That does imply that whatever agreements are made by Shards, binding though they may be, they ARE up for interpretation by the Vessel/Shard/Intent

Yes they are - to some degree.

listerfeend · January 19, 2024

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but this wasn't a binding oath but an agreement, which even allowed Shards to agree to settle together. Honor and Cultivation agreed to settle together and later they even allowed Odium to settle on Roshar too. But Odium was Splintering Shards using the fact that they had settled together, thus breaking the agreement as the justification - which gave him an edge. This also means that even if Taravangin won't consider himself responsible for the destruction of Kharbranth, others can argue that he is and that will give them an edge in fighting - a very dangerous edge.

Is that canon though? Ambition, to the best of my knowledge, wasn't settling with anyone, and wouldn't have had that same weakness? Unless I'm missing something. I know Mercy was involved in that fight as well, but it's unclear to me what their involvement was.

This raises more questions for me than it answers though. Who's perception matters more, is this literally a democratic debate? Where one side can make arguments, and the validity of those arguments is determined by...whichever side has the most support? I'm not sure how that plays out. Frankly, if Ado made a planet where a specific spren is required to prevent the destruction of civilizations by flooding, seems sort of like Ado is at fault for Kharbranth's destruction.

I'm not making that as a serious argument, it's just one of those things where perception shaping reality makes for really weird interactions when we don't know who's perception is the one that matters.

CtrlAltDepressed · January 19, 2024

26 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I'm not making that as a serious argument, it's just one of those things where perception shaping reality makes for really weird interactions when we don't know who's perception is the one that matters.

I interpreted this as their internal perception. It is exactly like Kaladins slave brand on his forehead. Since he sees that of himself, it stays. Since Honor did not see what he did as breaking the agreement, he wasnt weakened. If he had believed that to be the case, he wouldve been weakened. That is more than likely how Odium was able to kill him in the end. I dont know which oath Honor broke, but thats my interpretation. Perhaps Odium convinced him that it was wrong to settle with cultivation and that is what ultimately did him in.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

This also means that even if Taravangin won't consider himself responsible for the destruction of Kharbranth, others can argue that he is and that will give them an edge in fighting - a very dangerous edge.

I can only see this being applicable if Taravangian is actually convinced of their argument. It must be an internal perception to create the crack for another Shard to exploit. Otherwise, he wouldve done to Cultivation what he did to Honor.

Zrogezrg · January 19, 2024

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

The biggest problem with this is for Odium to do stuff like we see in the prologue, Odium needs a really, really strong Connection to that person and Gavilar had no way of gaining that Connection. It took Odium decades to establish this proper Connection to Dalinar. Odium can't just show himself to anyone, he needs that Connection - that's why he couldn't directly influence Kaladin in RoW, he did this using Moash's Connection. How would Gavilar gain that Connection to Odium in the first place?

Not sure about rest of the theory but Galivar 100% has some connection to Odium. Ulim (a voidspren) is delivered by Axindweth who is close to Galivar, Eshonai says she seems like his once mate (they seem to be close). So by some simple networking, there is connection. Not sure how strong though.

Galivar also has some access to voidlight spheres, which points to some contact with Braise/Odium.

CtrlAltDepressed · January 19, 2024

Just now, Zrogezrg said:

Not sure about rest of the theory but Galivar 100% has some connection to Odium. Ulim (a voidspren) is delivered by Axindweth who is close to Galivar, Eshonai says she seems like his once mate (they seem to be close). So by some simple networking, there is connection. Not sure how strong though.

Galivar also has some access to voidlight spheres, which points to some contact with Braise/Odium.

Agreed.

On the note of the anti-stormlight sphere, that would partially explain why Odium was so interested in him. He could have had the knowledge Raboniel found much earlier if Gav hadnt been killed.

listerfeend · January 19, 2024

2 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

On the note of the anti-stormlight sphere, that would partially explain why Odium was so interested in him. He could have had the knowledge Raboniel found much earlier if Gav hadnt been killed.

that is assuming that Odium didn't know that, which doesn't seem likely to me. I am fairly sure that Odium very specifically did NOT share that knowledge with Raboniel, and probably wasn't super pleased that she found all that out in the first place. But was also likely hindered by Intent to not interfere as she was following her passion.

alder24 · January 19, 2024

52 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Is that canon though? Ambition, to the best of my knowledge, wasn't settling with anyone, and wouldn't have had that same weakness? Unless I'm missing something. I know Mercy was involved in that fight as well, but it's unclear to me what their involvement was.

The WoBs are canon unless proven wrong by books or more recent WoBs. We don't know if Mercy settled with Ambition, but this doesn't matter. We know Odium targets specific individuals and Ambition was the number 1 on his hit list. He didn't have to use the agreement breaking justification everytime, especially if Mercy was helping him fight Ambition. And after Roshar he was planning to attack Autonomy, who is settled alone. Odium wants to kill them all and he uses any advantage he gets.

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

58 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

This raises more questions for me than it answers though. Who's perception matters more, is this literally a democratic debate? Where one side can make arguments, and the validity of those arguments is determined by...whichever side has the most support? I'm not sure how that plays out. Frankly, if Ado made a planet where a specific spren is required to prevent the destruction of civilizations by flooding, seems sort of like Ado is at fault for Kharbranth's destruction.

What I meant by "others can argue and that will give them an edge" doesn't mean that Odium would fully suffer the consequences of breaking an oath, it means that others might have an edge over him but not as great as if he were to perceive his action as breaking the oath. The fact that Odium wouldn't perceive that as breaking an Oath would most likely be more significant than the perception of others, but they can still use that against him to some degree. In the same way Devotion and Dominion could argue that they agreed to settle together but still be affected by Odium's perception that they've broken the agreement, which gave him an edge.

34 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I dont know which oath Honor broke, but thats my interpretation. Perhaps Odium convinced him that it was wrong to settle with cultivation and that is what ultimately did him in.

I don't think so. I think Honor exposed himself by imprisoning Odium which might be somewhat against the agreement on allowing Odium to settle on Roshar. As per WoB, Honor didn't consider his actions of settling together as breaking the agreement, and if two agreed, then there is no problem - I don't think this was the main issue here.

Spoiler

R'Shara

Did Honor and Cultivation binding Odium to the Roshar system directly cause the death stroke to Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

*sighs indecisively for a good ten seconds* RAFO. It's fiddly.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

38 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I can only see this being applicable if Taravangian is actually convinced of their argument. It must be an internal perception to create the crack for another Shard to exploit. Otherwise, he wouldve done to Cultivation what he did to Honor.

Again, I didn't mean a full crack, just that it would give an edge to the aggressor. Just some minor advantage but it wouldn't fully expose Odium like if he were to really break an oath.

27 minutes ago, Zrogezrg said:

Not sure about rest of the theory but Galivar 100% has some connection to Odium. Ulim (a voidspren) is delivered by Axindweth who is close to Galivar, Eshonai says she seems like his once mate (they seem to be close). So by some simple networking, there is connection. Not sure how strong though.

Galivar also has some access to voidlight spheres, which points to some contact with Braise/Odium.

Some Connection is not enough. Voidlight was carried from Braize, we don't know if Gavilar did this personally, it seems unlikely for a king to disappear for weeks or months and we have no mention of this happening (iirc). Still that’s too little for actions like this when Odium is bound by the Oathpact to Braize and has very limited reach on Roshar. There needs to be a significant Connection which simply wasn't there.

And I'm not even mentioning how would Odium gain access to the Stormfather's visions without the Stormfather being somewhat involved in that.

30 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

On the note of the anti-stormlight sphere, that would partially explain why Odium was so interested in him. He could have had the knowledge Raboniel found much earlier if Gav hadnt been killed.

That was anti-Voidlight. If he was with Gavilar that means he had been with him most likely for years before his assassination. In OB 49, 23 years before OB, 12 years before Evi's death, ~18 years before Gavilar's assassination, Gavilar mentioned things which seems to suggest he might have been getting visions already. That's a very, very long time for Odium to find out the secret of anti-light - he just needed to watch Gavilar making it. But this isn't even needed, Gavilar made anti-light very recently, shortly before the assassination, that's when he finally said to Amaram that he was successful. If the Stormfaker was Odium, he would have known how to make anti-light. This is too recent for Odium to miss.

Quote

So, at the opportune time, he pulled Amaram aside. “Meridas,” Gavilar whispered. “These meetings are growing onerous. My experiment was a success. I have the weapon I have been hunting.”
Amaram started, then spoke softly. “You mean...”
“Yes, we’ll return the Voidbringers to this land,” Gavilar said. “But when we do, we will have a new way to fight them.”

Quote

“Do you ever wonder about the time when this kingdom was truly great, Dalinar?” Gavilar asked. “When people looked to the Alethi. When kings sought their advice. When we were … Radiant.”
“Traitors,” Dalinar said.
“Does the act of a single generation negate many generations of domination? We revere the Sunmaker when his reign lasted but the blink of an eye—yet we ignore the centuries the Radiants led. How many Desolations did they defend mankind?”
[...]
“Words are important,” Gavilar said. “Much more than you give them credit for being.”
“Perhaps,” Dalinar said. “But if they were all-powerful, you wouldn’t need my sword, would you?”
“Perhaps. I can’t help feeling words would be enough, if only I knew the right ones to say.”

40 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

that is assuming that Odium didn't know that, which doesn't seem likely to me. I am fairly sure that Odium very specifically did NOT share that knowledge with Raboniel, and probably wasn't super pleased that she found all that out in the first place. But was also likely hindered by Intent to not interfere as she was following her passion.

I don't think so. Then Odium would have just ordered Moash to kill Navani as soon as they got her. He allowed Raboniel to investigate this because he saw the use in it and wanted it. Anti-light poses no danger to Odium.

CtrlAltDepressed · January 19, 2024

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Still that’s too little for actions like this when Odium is bound by the Oathpact to Braize

Wasnt the oathpact just between Honor and the Heralds, odium being trapped is a seperate event / oath??

alder24 · January 19, 2024

4 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Wasnt the oathpact just between Honor and the Heralds, odium being trapped is a seperate event / oath??

Yes, yes, however the Oathpact is part of it too. Odium a have limited reach when Heralds are on Braize. Most of his investiture is on Braize, Unmades are dormant and even BAM went against Odium and started the False Desolation. We don't see Odium contacting people in between Desolations (little to no information tbf). He can't do nearly as much as he can when Desolations are in progress.

Spoiler

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

ScavellTane · January 20, 2024

I wonder if Honor 'gave' the Singers to Odium to bind him to Roshar.

Stormlight Archive: Wind and Truth Prediction

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