Who would win?

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

In a fight would a Mistborn compounder (like Rashik( I think that's how you spell it)) or a knight radiant of the fourth ideal win in a fight?

I think the Mistborn compounder would win, I mean fourth-ideal knights are crazy powerful, but having, super speed, super quick thought, not need to stop for hours or days, infinite strength, and unlimited healing? You are almost guaranteed to lose against anyone who can do that.

Feel free to comment on this or to create other battles

[bmcclure7]

19 minutes ago, laserz667 said:

In a fight would a Mistborn compounder (like Rashik( I think that's how you spell it)) or a knight radiant of the fourth ideal win in a fight?

I think the Mistborn compounder would win, I mean fourth-ideal knights are crazy powerful, but having, super speed, super quick thought, not need to stop for hours or days, infinite strength, and unlimited healing? You are almost guaranteed to lose against anyone who can do that.

Feel free to comment on this or to create other battles

Mistborn compounder most definitely 

[Aredor]

An important point to consider in this is what order of Radiant is attacking Rashek. The most powerful Radiant order is most certainly the Bondsmith Order, so I'll use their abilities in the fight.  Because they're fighting, I'll assume they know what the strengths and weaknesses of each are. I'll also assume that there would be no Atium.

Points for each:

Compounder: can heal instantly, expand mental and physical speed, toughness, a LOT of investiture, and a whole lot more. 

• The Compounder has the definite advantage with F-Zinc and F-Steel.

Bondsmith: can manipulate Connection and can put out a whole lot of Stormlight/Towerlight/presumably Lifelight.

• Has access to a perpendicularity, giving unlimited access to Stormlight - improving reaction times.
• Presumably can take away Allomancy and Feruchemy. (Reasoning - Allomancy and Feruchemy are in the spiritweb, and so is Connection - which the Bondsmith can maniuplate.)

What would happen?

Bondsmith would probably lose, based on just how fast the Compounder can go. I'd think it'd depend a lot on the individuals and their individual fights, though. Maybe the Compounder winds 4 out of 5. 4th ideal Bondsmith would be very experienced with how to use their powers, and would be very strong. The compounder would get hit a couple times, but I'd assume that'd be fine for them, if a little embarrassing. I'm not sure how the Compounder would break the Plate, though. Maybe use A-Duralumin and A-Steel to smash a button or a metal bar through the Plate? Even though that would deplete all the stores, it would probably incapacitate the Radiant, letting the Compounder win. 

I don't think we have enough information about Bondsmithing to reasonably determine the outcome of this fight yet. What are the limits? We have no idea. Hopefully Stormlight 5 will shed some light on the situation. 

[Duxredux he/him]

I mean you can discuss it if you want to, but you'll get some well used arguments from the older 17th Sharders. Alternately maybe some fresh blood will add in some new ideas and some of the old fogeys should just watch and chuckle.

Feel free to peruse the 1000+ posts on slight variations on the topic on 6 separate threads in no particular order. Don't necro them, please. Or just skip them and have fun imagining the fight.

Edited January 11, 2024 by Duxredux

[alder24]

11 hours ago, laserz667 said:

In a fight would a Mistborn compounder (like Rashik( I think that's how you spell it)) or a knight radiant of the fourth ideal win in a fight?

Not this again.  I was going to post all topics of this nature from a recent year or two but @Duxredux did that already. 

It's spelled Rashek.

My opinion hasn't changed, a Fullborn would still win. Tap a lot of steel, to get to Radiant before he even notices you, tap pewter to smash his plate to pieces and punch him in the brain directly, then leech all of Radiant's Stormlight using A-chromium with A-duralumin, killing them instantly. Radiant can't even react to this, even Bondsmith won't be able to react fast enough to manipulate Connections. A Fullborn can use A-electrum with F-zinc and F-chromium to have a reliable future sight, he can even burn A-electrum with A-duralumin to directly see the future like Elend did at the end of HoA. He can use duralumin enhanced emotional Allomancy to paralyze Radiant once the plate is broken. A Fullborn is just op.

[Trusk'our he/him]

11 hours ago, laserz667 said:

In a fight would a Mistborn compounder (like Rashik( I think that's how you spell it)) or a knight radiant of the fourth ideal win in a fight?

I think the Mistborn compounder would win, I mean fourth-ideal knights are crazy powerful, but having, super speed, super quick thought, not need to stop for hours or days, infinite strength, and unlimited healing? You are almost guaranteed to lose against anyone who can do that.

Feel free to comment on this or to create other battles

Yup, the Fullborn wins outright unless the author decides to pull a deus ex machina; Compounding physical speed alone should be enough to take out the Bondsmith, but a Full Feruchemist and Mistborn is just overkill.

[KelsierFortnite he/him]

But what about a Fullborn, 5th Ideal Bondsmith 10th Heightenening Awakener Elantrian Mastrell Forger Aetherbound vs STICK

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

What about a Steel inquisitor vs. a third ideal radiant?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, laserz667 said:

What about a Steel inquisitor vs. a third ideal radiant?

Topics like this are really common every year. Just 3 of them from a year ago, a Mistborn vs 3rd Ideal Lightweaver, Skybreaker, or Windrunner, if you're interested to read.

Steel Inquisitor would be like this topic Kaladin or Kelsier or Kaladin vs Vin. It depends what kind of Radiant and Inquisitor we're talking about. Was he a full Mistborn before and thus half of his powers are doubled or just a Seeker? Is this HoA Inquisitor with additional spikes or maybe even Marsh with 20-something spikes or just TFE one with only 9-11 spikes? Do they have Atium? What Order is this Radiant? Some orders are more combat oriented and will have an easier time winning like Windrunners or Stonewards, others will probably lose like Lightweavers or Truthwatchers because they're less focused on fighting, but it really depends on circumstances.

Edited January 11, 2024 by alder24

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, laserz667 said:

What about a Steel inquisitor vs. a third ideal radiant?

As @alder24 said, it really depends on a lot of factors. 

If we're talking about the standard Steel Inquisitor pre HoA, even one who's a natural Mistborn, then they get curbstomped by basically any decently skilled 3rd oath Radiant of any order.

If we're talking about HoA ones, it still depends. What Feruchemical powers do they have? Do they know Compounding? Do they have access to modern metals, such as chromium and Nicrosil?

It depends on a ton of different factors, especially for Inquisitors as they can vary so much in their powers,, but if the Inquisitor has so many spikes that they're basically a Fullborn, then they're a Fullborn (for the purposes of determining whether they'd win a fight at least).

Edited January 11, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

Has this idea below been used?

6th Heightening Awakener vs. a Pewterarm

Awakener has lots of dyed cloth and the Pewterarm has lots of pewter.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Has this idea below been used?

6th Heightening Awakener vs. a Pewterarm

Awakener has lots of dyed cloth and the Pewterarm has lots of pewter.

Awakaner wins easily - just Awaken the cloth to strangle the Pewterarm. I even believe that with enough prep time an Awakener can win against a Mistborn.

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

I can't provide input because I am unfamiliar with Awakening

[Duxredux he/him]

In the immortal word of Wayne, you can beat anybody, so long as you don't let them fight back properly. Fights are so much about environment, experience, circumstances, and more. On paper, a Thug should trash a Tineye, unless that Tineye is Spook as a full Savant. On paper a Crasher, a Bloodmaker Slider, and a Pulser should get trounced when facing a small army of bandits with a Pewterarm, Gold compounder, Coinshot, and Lurcher, unless it's Dawnshot with his posse. 

Now this isn't the case with every author, but I've listened to Writing Excuses and Brandon generally builds narrative goals within the structure of his fight scenes. It's almost never group A just wants to fight group B, it's Kaladin who has no desire to fight, he just wants to keep the other slaves of Bridge Four alive and the scene pacing focuses on him protecting them when they get injured or exposed. It's not Vin and Zane just beating up a bunch of soldiers for no reason, she's hunting Cett at the top of the keep to get him to stop bullying Elend and Luthadel. It's not Kelsier just duking it out with an Inquisitor, he needs to protect the Skaa, Elend, and give a showy enough fight that he can inspire the Skaa to rise up in rebellion (with a good dose of revenge as well). 

I've seen a few ways that these discussions go and generally the ones that I find the most interesting aren't focused solely on "who is the best", instead I find the ones where people try to come up with clever strategies that capitalize on one powerset's strengths to hit the oppositions' weaknesses and vice versa. Limitations foster creativity. For example, it can now genuinely be an important question to ask in Rosharan combat: how good are you at singing? Radiant Shardbearers are used to being able to tear through normal troops, but what happens if the entire appropriately named Singer army starts chanting the anti-tone of Stormlight in every conflict?

I'm curious, what other formats of vs threads have people enjoyed most? 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Awakaner wins easily - just Awaken the cloth to strangle the Pewterarm. I even believe that with enough prep time an Awakener can win against a Mistborn.

Oh yeah. And from what we saw in TLM I don't even think gold compounding could save someone from an awakener with enough rope and ribbon.  Strangle or constrict is the only command needed. You get a half inch thick rope that is long enough to wrap up the arms of the pewterarm and its game over. 

I think awakening is just way to underestimated. Not saying steel and iron couldn't hurt them. Guns obviously are a weakness for anyone (except plate is arguable). 

But even with plate I think awakening strength is more tied to the materials strength. If you have access to thick / strong enough cordage or straps I think everything in the cosmere is vulnerable to a constricting attack. 

Big question is this though, would leeching an awakened item sap it of all of its breath fast enough to regroup?  

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't even think gold compounding could save someone from an awakener with enough rope and ribbon.  Strangle or constrict is the only command needed.

Your right, being a gold compounder would not save you from being strangled but if your a cadmium compounder then you could just, survive.

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Oh yeah. And from what we saw in TLM I don't even think gold compounding could save someone from an awakener with enough rope and ribbon.  Strangle or constrict is the only command needed. You get a half inch thick rope that is long enough to wrap up the arms of the pewterarm and its game over. 

13 hours ago, laserz667 said:

Your right, being a gold compounder would not save you from being strangled but if your a cadmium compounder then you could just, survive.

Miles could literally ignore all pain. A gold compounder would be able to ignore strangulation and healing would keep him alive for a very long time (Radiants don't have to breathe - Stormlight keeps them alive - the same would be for any Bloodmaker or gold compounder). That's enough for them to find a knife or blow themselves up with a dynamite stick like Miles did. They would need to be completely restrained, which can be done relatively easily with an Awaken material (Vasher did that to Kaladin), but once they are binded like that, just take out their metalminds, stab them in the heart and cut off their head - that should kill them much faster than just strangulation.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Miles could literally ignore all pain. A gold compounder would be able to ignore strangulation and healing would keep him alive for a very long time (Radiants don't have to breathe - Stormlight keeps them alive - the same would be for any Bloodmaker or gold compounder). That's enough for them to find a knife or blow themselves up with a dynamite stick like Miles did. They would need to be completely restrained, which can be done relatively easily with an Awaken material (Vasher did that to Kaladin), but once they are binded like that, just take out their metalminds, stab them in the heart and cut off their head - that should kill them much faster than just strangulation.

Yeah strangle is a decent use of a small rope. A longer length and that rope could just crush them.  This is why I am always trying to think of the limit of awakened objects. If it is limited not by breath but by the material itself then a longer piece of rope should be able to go further than just strangling. It should literally be able to wrap and crush them.  A python without a head to cut off. Thinking about how my eyes bulge from just a bit of pressure in a rear naked choke makes me terrified of what would happen to a body if a 25 foot length of rope were to be commanded to crush it instead of just strangle. As it tightens pressure builds up everywhere else. Once the arms are trapped it wouldn't take too long for the rope alone to finish even Miles. Wrapped around the torso that thing would be absolutely destroying his body nonstop. Far more trauma per second than a firing squad I would think. Crushed ribs, punctured lungs, no space for the heart to even attempt a blood pressure.  Shoot we can bottom out a blood pressure with too high of peep. Constricted would be easier. The amount of bleeding and intercranial pressure would be tremendous. Radiants too... although the plate is the trick there. 

 

I wonder how thick the rope would have to be to be able to constrain shardplate strength or to be able to crack plate and crush it. 

[Duxredux he/him]

I'll note that strangulation is often misunderstood. In most cases where something is around the neck and is choking someone, they don't pass out because they can't breathe, at least not directly. For proper chokeholds like the rear naked choke (RNC) they pass out because the jugular veins that cycle blood to the brain get blocked off. It's why someone can hold their breath for a couple minutes but pass out within 10 or so seconds of getting put in a chokehold. I mean yes, you can choke someone by crushing their windpipe, but constricting blood vessels takes less force and usually happens much earlier.

A Cadmium Compounder can manually oxygenated their blood but in this scenario they won't be able to exhale the carbon dioxide accumulating in their brain because that blood is trapped. Now maybe they can have a Cadmiummind store waste CO2 to flush the blood, but that's complicated, theoretical, and requires them to assign half of their potential Feruchemical storage just to respiratory waste. I'm guessing the carbon dioxide has to go somewhere.

 

Now with Awakened ropes used to simply compress a target, it takes time to wind a long material around something as elongated as a person. It's not instantaneous and dependent on the width of the Awakened material, the diameter of the target, and how the material needs to move to add additional layers. One loop of rope is pretty easy to get around someone, but something like a cocoon is going to take time. The solution is probably to use wider material like a carpet to maximize width and so minimize turns around a person, but walking around with something that bulky is a bit of a tell. Thin rope will need several passes before it can bind an appreciable area, and notably Vasher used scarves and wrapped Kaladin's hands himself, he didn't just toss a scarf at him and have it start winding itself around him. And of course if you can intercept the Awakened objects like Kaladin did with the sheets leaping off the clothes line, then you can avoid a lot of problems.

Fullborn might be able to just flex off an Awakened constrictive binding by compounding Feruchemical Pewter and maybe Gold if they need it. Set themselves on fire with Brass if they have to, since most Awakened objects are organic and organic means carbon and hydrocarbons and therefore flammable.

Now if I was a Radiant Sharbearer going up against an Awakener, then I might check if I can do something like have my plate spren make a sharp edge along one side of my armor. The dorky imagery is like the cutting edge for a plastic wrap dispenser. Basically something to passively cut anything that tries to constrict me. Takes no effort on my part once it's setup.

Rosite Aetherbound might be able to grow a cutting edge beneath the binding. Sand Master probably uses ribbons at a distance to intercept and cut the Awakened objects. Let the Sandmaster even touch sand and it can use one ribbon to gather more sand and externally cut off the binding. Anyone other than Kenton probably sandblasts their body in the process but would survive if quick enough. Alternately use a ribbon to fetch a sword and cut myself free thay way.

 

Now if I'm the Awakener and this is how people are planning against me... I might use a single longer rope already tied to an anchor to grab the target by the ankle and crack them like a whip to injure and disorient, then send ropes along that rope to bind the target at the end. Thin ropes can throw boulders at fortified positions, so they should do just fine to yeet people at brick walls as well. Alternately see how far material science has progressed and see if fiber core steel cable works, sewing blades into the rope, or see how well Awakened objects can operate machine guns and artillery. An alternative route is to use something similar to braided fishing line which is thin enough and strong enough to cut into the skin of the angler if they aren't careful. A Bloodmaker or Radiant could do it, but it's psychologically hard to break something that is embedded in your skin and digs in deeper the more you struggle. Even a Sandmaster or Aetherbound might have problems with that. Something as thin as a fishing line would also be very hard to spot and intercept.

How would I counter that Awakening style? Etc. Etc.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

36 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I'll note that strangulation is often misunderstood. In most cases where something is around the neck and is choking someone, they don't pass out because they can't breathe, at least not directly. For proper chokeholds like the rear naked choke (RNC) they pass out because the jugular veins that cycle blood to the brain get blocked off. It's why someone can hold their breath for a couple minutes but pass out within 10 or so seconds of getting put in a chokehold. I mean yes, you can choke someone by crushing their windpipe, but constricting blood vessels takes less force and usually happens much earlier.

A Cadmium Compounder can manually oxygenated their blood but in this scenario they won't be able to exhale the carbon dioxide accumulating in their brain because that blood is trapped. Now maybe they can have a Cadmiummind store waste CO2 to flush the blood, but that's complicated, theoretical, and requires them to assign half of their potential Feruchemical storage just to respiratory waste. I'm guessing the carbon dioxide has to go somewhere.

 

Now with Awakened ropes used to simply compress a target, it takes time to wind a long material around something as elongated as a person. It's not instantaneous and dependent on the width of the Awakened material, the diameter of the target, and how the material needs to move to add additional layers. One loop of rope is pretty easy to get around someone, but something like a cocoon is going to take time. The solution is probably to use wider material like a carpet to maximize width and so minimize turns around a person, but walking around with something that bulky is a bit of a tell. Thin rope will need several passes before it can bind an appreciable area, and notably Vasher used scarves and wrapped Kaladin's hands himself, he didn't just toss a scarf at him and have it start winding itself around him. And of course if you can intercept the Awakened objects like Kaladin did with the sheets leaping off the clothes line, then you can avoid a lot of problems.

Fullborn might be able to just flex off an Awakened constrictive binding by compounding Feruchemical Pewter and maybe Gold if they need it. Set themselves on fire with Brass if they have to, since most Awakened objects are organic and organic means carbon and hydrocarbons and therefore flammable.

Now if I was a Radiant Sharbearer going up against an Awakener, then I might check if I can do something like have my plate spren make a sharp edge along one side of my armor. The dorky imagery is like the cutting edge for a plastic wrap dispenser. Basically something to passively cut anything that tries to constrict me. Takes no effort on my part once it's setup.

Rosite Aetherbound might be able to grow a cutting edge beneath the binding. Sand Master probably uses ribbons at a distance to intercept and cut the Awakened objects. Let the Sandmaster even touch sand and it can use one ribbon to gather more sand and externally cut off the binding. Anyone other than Kenton probably sandblasts their body in the process but would survive if quick enough. Alternately use a ribbon to fetch a sword and cut myself free thay way.

 

Now if I'm the Awakener and this is how people are planning against me... I might use a single longer rope already tied to an anchor to grab the target by the ankle and crack them like a whip to injure and disorient, then send ropes along that rope to bind the target at the end. Thin ropes can throw boulders at fortified positions, so they should do just fine to yeet people at brick walls as well. Alternately see how far material science has progressed and see if fiber core steel cable works, sewing blades into the rope, or see how well Awakened objects can operate machine guns and artillery. An alternative route is to use something similar to braided fishing line which is thin enough and strong enough to cut into the skin of the angler if they aren't careful. A Bloodmaker or Radiant could do it, but it's psychologically hard to break something that is embedded in your skin and digs in deeper the more you struggle. Even a Sandmaster or Aetherbound might have problems with that. Something as thin as a fishing line would also be very hard to spot and intercept.

How would I counter that Awakening style? Etc. Etc.

I don't think it needs to coil slowly. Look at how constricters catch and kill prey. They grab it and throw their body over in folds to initially bind it and then they slowly reposition those folds until it is neater and tighter.  A rope with an untwisted and open end would have long fingers and could initially grab someone and then throw folds more like a constrictor. It happens in the blink of an eye. 

Maybe they don't have snakes in the cosmere to base the imagery off of.  

The braided line is smart. An awakened braided line could absolutely just cut fools in half after grabbing them for you.  Eviscerate people. 

I have thought that some form steel wrapped cable, or aluminum if it would work, wrapped line would be great as well. 

The awakener version of the Iron Spider Suit instant kill would be spooky and possible with steel cable and the 9th heightening I think. 

Some doc ock awakened suit. 

But for rope constricting... I would fashion the imagery like a python striking and pulling while throwing itself over and around. Length of the rope probably doesn't have to be that long either. Have it lay couled against your arm and strike forward as you extend your arm towards the opposition grabbing them with the untwisted fingerling ends of the rope. 

Put sharp aluminum caps on the ends of the untwisted rope fingers and use imagery of the rope attacking eyes and noses... just these long rope tentacles of death.  If that made it into the eyeslit of some plate and the aluminum tiped bits acted like drills boring into the soft tissue and targets it wouldn't be able to be healed through. Like aluminum bullets that won't let you simply heal them out. All while the body length of rope is wrapping around your arms.  

Fairly terrifying imagery.  I love awakening. 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 1/12/2024 at 12:07 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Fairly terrifying imagery.  I love awakening. 

Glad to hear about someone as passionate about a magic system as I am about Hemalurgy