discuss The Heart of the Lord of Scars

[Duxredux]

I've seen various opinions regarding Kelsier over the years on 17th Shard and I wanted to poll the public opinion on what kind of person Kelsier really is. I was hoping for this to be an open discussion on how people perceive Kelsier, and as such I'd like to lay down some guidelines to hopefully keep this thread polite, thought-provoking, and a safe place to share your views and experiences.

First, it's okay to respectfully disagree, but please do not imply that another person's experience was wrong. Your experience with the books is your own and does not invalidate another's.

Second, if someone posts explicitly incorrect factual data, then yes, please correct it, but this is the most extreme disagreement I want. Even for someone quoting a character's view on Kelsier, that is subjective within the context of the story.

Again, I want to know what people think, not try to arrive at any sort of conclusive answer.

 

I'll put out some background in the order of the poll, though it's probably unnecessary .

Spoiler

Questioner

I think Kelsier is one of the best-crafted fantasy characters I've seen in the world. He resonates with me on new levels. What exactly were your influences in the character when you were constructing him?

Brandon Sanderson

Two big influences for Kelsier. The first is, I wanted to do kind of the classic rogue archetype guy, but someone who had had something so fundamentally life-shaking in his life that he had to look deep within and become somebody else. But it's mixed with the other big inspiration, which is, there's kind of some psychopathic tendencies to him, and he would be a villain in many other books. But in this one, he's what the world needed. And those two combinations created for me a really nice tension inside a character.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

i_are_pant

1. Which of your protagonist characters do you dislike the most as a person? Taking into account that you know all of their inner secrets and motivations.2. On the flip side. Which of your antagonists do you connect with the most? The Lord Ruler seems an obvious choice as he was misunderstood by everybody for so long. But still, I'm curious.

Brandon Sanderson

• This is a tough one, as while I'm writing, I HAVE to like everyone. However, the most disturbing of them is probably Kelsier. He's a psychopath--meaning the actual, technical term. Lack of empathy, egotism, lack of fear. If his life had gone differently, he could have been a very, very evil dude.

• Elend. I see myself as an idealist like him.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 17, 2013)

Brandon himself says that had his life gone differently he could be a very evil dude and is an actual psychopath. His formation of the Ghostbloods and involvement in the Cosmere doesn't paint the most friendly of pictures. During the days of the Final Empire his hatred of the nobility was considerable and he has an innate ruthlessness. He forced the very first Skaa plantation we see to flee or join the rebellion.

Is Kelsier a good man? I remember his lesson to Vin on friendship and what friendship really means, choosing to go toe-to-toe with a Steel Inquisitor to save Spook. Most of what we see Kelsier doing in Mistborn 1 is directly related to the plan, but there is a scene later in the book where Vin goes with him and visits the Skaa to give them supplies and encouragement. This is framed as a break from his plotting and recruiting, this is what he does to decompress and at least partially relax the mask of the Survivor of Hathsin. I remember his encouragement, his willingness to change and try to see the good in others and protect the Skaa. His time as a Cognitive Shadow during Secret History shows him repeating Leras's counsel to himself, to do better, that the hearts of men are not his toys, and we see him weeping as Spook runs into the flames. 

Kelsier is also extremely charismatic and draws a lot of attention and notoriety, deliberately so. He was famous before he became the Survivor of Hathsin and sowed the seeds for his own religion hiring OreSeur to enact a false resurrection. He drew power away from Yeden the leader of the Skaa rebellion, created a fake belief of mystic power when he had Demoux fight Bilg in the army, enhancing Demoux strikes with Allomancy. Even when he goes to free Spook, he thinks to himself about how he's always wondered if he could best an Inquisitor. We've since learned that he has established a name for himself among the Southern Scadrians as the Sovereign, with a temple built in his name in the north, complete with dead/sacrificed(?) Southerners and elaborate traps and locked door. At the end of Secret History, Vin asks Kelsier how much was about them, and how much was about himself and proving that he hadn't been beaten, a question that Kelsier didn't know the answer to. Presumably he was the one that commissioned or created the Bands of Mourning, the most powerful artifact since the Well of Ascension. He also is looking to obtain Stormlight from Roshar and has a chapter of the Ghostbloods working in the shadows there (though there are hints of a schism between chapters).

Kelsier also has the distinction of being the only person we know to have Ascended to become a Shard and willingly given up the power, though Vin is very close. In his first life he had to be restrained from stopping the first round of executions, he sprinted for 16 straight hours and would have fought an entire army to try to save the army of the rebellion at the end of that sprint if Vin hadn't stopped him. Not once, but twice he has deliberately placed himself against a god expecting to die - the fact that neither The Lord Ruler or Ruin managed to permanently kill him doesn't discount the expectation of death. At least, I'm going to say that letting go the power of Preservation when Ruin is trying to kill you is tantamount to accepting death. We also have that medallion that Hoid gave Wax showing Kelsier helping the freezing Southern Scadrians.

 

So. What do people think? We've gotten very few glimpses from his point of view since Secret History, and it's been 300 years since he was alive. Who do you think Kelsier is at his core?

Edited December 31, 2023 by Duxredux

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Duxredux said:

So. What do people think? We've gotten very few glimpses from his point of view since Secret History, and it's been 300 years since he was alive. Who do you think Kelsier is at his core?

It's hard to say. In the small, personal interactions he is a good person. He cares for his friends, trusts them without question and supports them even if that means risking his own life. He wants them to be happy. He is a good friend.

But on the grand scale? Sure, he orchestrated a plan to bring the Final Empire down, he forged a weapon that killed the Lord Ruler. But was that to make Skaa free or was that his revenge for killing Mare and for their suffering in the Pits? Did he go from one Skaa household to another every night to cheer them up, encourage them and give them hope or was that because this was a part of his second plan, to spark a religion that will last and overthrow the Empire, thus achieving his revenge? Was he killing nobles to encourage change or was that just his personal vendetta?

Those questions can be rightfully answered in both directions because Kelsier is a complicated character. I have no doubt that Kelsier cared for Skaa and wanted to improve their lives, but his hatred for TLR, the system and the nobles went beyond reasonable, and was a dangerous obsession that fueled his actions. He had no remorse for Skaa that, to provide for their family, had to sell themselves to the Empire and serve in the garrison and the palace guard. In contrast Vin cared about them, she knew they could be better, she knew what horrible dilemma they were facing and she gave them a chance - one of them later saved her by leading Elend to her, by the end this man saved the world by delivering Kelsier's message to Marsh. Kelsier would have just killed him. 

This hatred that fueled him was a double-edged sword. It could have been easily used for "evil." And that's dangerous. He got better because of Vin, but did he fully get over his past self? Did he change? I don't know, I don't think so. He sparked another religion, he leads another "crew" with questionable goals and he judges what's right or wrong. 

In the end I agree with Brandon. I think he is a person who could have become a villain in other circumstances. I don't know if he is on the way to becoming a villain now, but he definitely can become a villain.

You've already mentioned Vin's quote from SH, but I still want to put it here because that was a rare moment of Kelsier being fully transparent with himself:

Quote

“Once, you taught me an important lesson about friendship. I need to return that lesson. A last gift. You need to know, you need to ask. How much of what you’ve done was about love, and how much was about proving something? That you hadn’t been betrayed, bested, beaten? Can you answer honestly, Kelsier?”
He met her eyes, and saw the implicit question.
How much was about us? it asked. And how much was about you?
“I don’t know,” he said to her.

Edited December 31, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

I chose "other" because I do not find those descriptions to be mutually exclusive.

To me, he's a rogue-type protector who chooses his plans, at least subconsciously, based on how they will affect and increase his reputation; a good man, that could have easily become a villain in a different story.

I do disagree with with Brandon though - I don't think Kell, as written, would be a true psychopath/sociopath. Instead, I think he adheres to a personal moral code that differs from the norm, and he rejects those he finds that betray his code. If he were a true psychopath/sociopath (antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and dissocial personality disorder (DPD)) he would be incapable of true friendship - and he is shown to clearly value friendship and possess some level of empathy.

[Rorzikel]

Agreed with @Treamayne, I do not think Brandon wrote Kelsier as what he thinks he did or that his depiction of the real life disorder is accurate. For one, psychopath is not the medical term for ASPD, and has not been featured as a term in the DSM since 1968, which conflicts with Brandon's assessment of "He's a psychopath--meaning the actual, technical term." It is a charged term that is soaked in pop culture stereotypes more than genuine science, and I'm skeptical that at the time of these wobs or even now that he has tried to take the same non biased approach that he did for Shallan or Kaladin's mental health.

Similar to how not every bad ex is a clinical narcissist, not everyone who has certain traits qualifies for antisocial personality disorder.

[+Oltux72]

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's hard to say. In the small, personal interactions he is a good person. He cares for his friends, trusts them without question and supports them even if that means risking his own life. He wants them to be happy. He is a good friend.

But on the grand scale? Sure, he orchestrated a plan to bring the Final Empire down, he forged a weapon that killed the Lord Ruler. But was that to make Skaa free or was that his revenge for killing Mare and for their suffering in the Pits? Did he go from one Skaa household to another every night to cheer them up, encourage them and give them hope or was that because this was a part of his second plan, to spark a religion that will last and overthrow the Empire, thus achieving his revenge? Was he killing nobles to encourage change or was that just his personal vendetta?

I am going to put hypothetical words into his mouth:
If a lion chases a zebra and the zebra tries to escape, neither is doing anything wrong, though their goals are mutually exclusive.

If you are one of his, he is willing to die for you. He literally did so. If you are against him or his, your very existance is a stain on the universe. If you told him that you are everybody's friend, he'd tell you that thereby you are nobody's friend. Kelsier is most of all tribal.
Kelsier has no problem accepting that people have incompatible interests and you have to pick a side. Note that this does not mean that he was dishonest when he said that he did not know whether he fought against somebody or for somebody. The question is secondary to him. As would be the question whether he is a good man. Primarily he is a loyal man.

20 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I chose "other" because I do not find those descriptions to be mutually exclusive.

Yes. Neither are they consistent within themselves. Kelsier will protect the marginalized. But not the weak.

20 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I do disagree with with Brandon though - I don't think Kell, as written, would be a true psychopath/sociopath. Instead, I think he adheres to a personal moral code that differs from the norm, and he rejects those he finds that betray his code. If he were a true psychopath/sociopath (antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and dissocial personality disorder (DPD)) he would be incapable of true friendship - and he is shown to clearly value friendship and possess some level of empathy.

Absolutely. What he tried to do to safe the doomed army is inconsistent with being a psychopath.

[Treamayne]

33 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Neither are they consistent within themselves.

I neither said nor implied they were consistent across definitions. I only said that my personal take on Kelsier included elements of more than one of the options presented (elements from 3 of the 4, to be specific)

Edited January 1 by Treamayne
SPAG

[+Oltux72]

27 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I neither said not implied they were consistent across definitions. I only said that my personal take on Kelsier included elements of more than one of the options presented (elements of 3 from the 4, to be specific)

Indeed. Sorry, if I should have implied anything else.

It just seems important to add that even within the options some parts apply, but others do not. For example Kelsier is not a psychopath, but had he been a pure blooded noble, he would have gone into villainy as far as Straff Venture.

[Duxredux]

Incidentally, I wrote out the top post to try to be relatively unbiased and to show evidence for the various options. 

I'm not entirely certain on him being an attention seeking diva, or at least whether or not that is one of his core characteristics. Everything that Kelsier did to setup the Church of the Survivor including the recruitment drives, showboating overcoming his discomfort of entering the resistance caverns, even his encouragement of the crew I put under suspicion as being part of the plan to provide the Skaa sufficient hope and motivation to rise up and overthrow the Final Empire. Sure, he setup a religion in his name, but he didn't actually expect there to be an afterlife once TLR killed him, so unless he was going for post-humous glory, seems kind of odd for someone as pragmatic as Kelsier usually is. The crew was suspicious and confronted Kelsier about his growing fame, which I believe is when he directs them to the executions reminding them of why they were fighting. This isn't to say that he isn't good at drawing attention to himself, but I wonder if he's merely weaponized it like Lightsong emphasizes his laziness and apparent uselessness. This doesn't address the religion setup in the South though and a temple built to the Sovereign (though that one might be elaborate misdirection to hide the Bands of Mourning). Kind of depends on if he likes the glory despite sticking to the shadows or if he's found it's just flat out easier to get people to do what he wants when they think he's a deity, something that he would probably be annoyed to find he shares with Hoid. Depending on how the Firemothers work, whether or not Hemalurgy is involved or if the Southerners even knew about Hemalurgy, I could see that either needing some fake divine mandate or creating rumors of divine power. Ooor Kelsier could just be lapping it up, but I'm leaving this one as open-ended in my head canon.

 

Quote

Dane Brown

Hypothetically, if Kelsier were to meet Kaladin, what would he say?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably "don't be so hard on yourself, kid." That would probably be what Kelsier says. He would do some version of "I've been there, don't be so hard on yourself. You can't fix it all." That's what my gut says.

Kelsier would really like Kaladin. He's the sort of person that Kelsier just... Kelsier loves to see and recognize the people who are just innately good and trying to do good. He's drawn to that because it's not something that is natural to him, if that makes any sense. He can recognize it, though. And it's one of those things that he kind of wants to preserve in the world. And he would really like Kaladin.

Adam Horne

Would Kaladin like Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably not. But Kelsier would probably be just fine with that.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

Based on this, my take is that it is not easy or natural for Kelsier to do good or be good and he deliberately surrounds himself with good people to keep himself in check and inform his goals. After Mare's death, his goal was to bring back Mare's flowers. He listens and tries to change when Vin shouts at him about nobility, Dox scolds him for putting Vin in danger, or Preservation rebukes him. This is part of the context that I view Marsh talking about being the third leg to a tripod balancing Sazed and Kelsier, where if Kelsier doesn't have someone around that he trusts to shout at him and slap him upside the head, he will get into trouble. It's a similar concept to Dalinar talking to Navani (WoK chapter 64: A Man of Extremes) about how he is a weak man, and how weakness if bound correctly can imitate strength. It's becoming a problem though that some of the people Kelsier could trust to be a better moral compass like Marasi or Sazed either turn him down or are growing less reliable. 

 

At any rate, I'm probably in the minority, but I'm not sure if self-aggrandizement is core to who Kelsier is (at least after coming out of the Pits of Hathsin), and that for someone with at least some psychopathic tendencies he tries to do good and surround himself with people who are better than he is, which is perhaps the best you could hope for some with his brand of behavior disorders.

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Indeed. Sorry, if I should have implied anything else.

It just seems important to add that even within the options some parts apply, but others do not. For example Kelsier is not a psychopath, but had he been a pure blooded noble, he would have gone into villainy as far as Straff Venture.

Eh, the discussion was my primary goal, the poll was mostly to fuel the conversation. There's a tradeoff between too few over-generalized options and choice-overload and 4 options plus "other" seemed to fit the general view of Kelsier as I've seen him portrayed in the various threads. It's actually multiple choice so people can choose multiple options or whichever fits closest. Besides, it's already generating discussion right? If people are genuine interested in the discussion, they'll read your point of view.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

This isn't to say that he isn't good at drawing attention to himself, but I wonder if he's merely weaponized it like Lightsong emphasizes his laziness and apparent uselessness. This doesn't address the religion setup in the South though and a temple built to the Sovereign (though that one might be elaborate misdirection to hide the Bands of Mourning). Kind of depends on if he likes the glory despite sticking to the shadows or if he's found it's just flat out easier to get people to do what he wants when they think he's a deity, something that he would probably be annoyed to find he shares with Hoid. Depending on how the Firemothers work, whether or not Hemalurgy is involved or if the Southerners even knew about Hemalurgy, I could see that either needing some fake divine mandate or creating rumors of divine power. Ooor Kelsier could just be lapping it up, but I'm leaving this one as open-ended in my head canon.

Kelsier was a god. If you can claim that, is letting people build shrines to you narcistic or merely confident?

[SheepAreFluffy]

There's one thing that's really stuck with me about Kelsier right from the start. He always talked up the importance of his crew and working together and all that stuff, but when it came down to his final plan in The Final Empire to get himself killed and then stage his resurection, he worked alone (except for OreSeur, who was integral to the plan). So that's who I think he is at heart: someone who is only going to trust himself when the chips are really down. Nothing I've seen of him since has changed that opinion that I've had from the start.

[The Stick77]

42 minutes ago, SheepAreFluffy said:

There's one thing that's really stuck with me about Kelsier right from the start. He always talked up the importance of his crew and working together and all that stuff, but when it came down to his final plan in The Final Empire to get himself killed and then stage his resurection, he worked alone (except for OreSeur, who was integral to the plan). So that's who I think he is at heart: someone who is only going to trust himself when the chips are really down. Nothing I've seen of him since has changed that opinion that I've had from the start.

This is interesting to me because I think if anything Kell’s actions perhaps show that he trusts his crew more than anything. While yes he knew what had to be done and didn’t trust his crew not to stop him I think he showed greater faith in them by trusting them to pick up the pieces after his death. He had enough trust that his work would be carried on and I think that perhaps paints the opposite picture of him.   

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, SheepAreFluffy said:

There's one thing that's really stuck with me about Kelsier right from the start. He always talked up the importance of his crew and working together and all that stuff, but when it came down to his final plan in The Final Empire to get himself killed and then stage his resurection, he worked alone (except for OreSeur, who was integral to the plan). So that's who I think he is at heart: someone who is only going to trust himself when the chips are really down. Nothing I've seen of him since has changed that opinion that I've had from the start.

Kelsier trust his crew in the sense that a good general makes sure he can trust his staff. But that does not mean that they are a democracy. In the end he makes the command decisions.

[Duxredux]

That is a good question. Why does Kelsier feel the need to keep so many secrets, even from his closest friends? In the context of Mistborn 1, Here's a few options:

• He trusts people but at arms length. In Secret History it talks about his relationship with Marsh, how both of them always knew that if the other screwed up they would both get hunted down and executed. This may also be an echo of TLR implying that Mare had betrayed Kelsier. 
• He obscured only the parts of the plan that would have even hinted that he intended to get himself martyred. He wasn't just putting on a show for the crew, he was putting on a show for the entire Skaa population, and the crew's response to his death, particularly Vin running over and weeping over his body added a degree of authenticity to the performance that would have been very difficult to obtain had any of them known that he intended to die. The question is, was his inflexibility in maintaining his position as crew leader simply because he knew he was the only one that had all the pieces to the plan and he needed the crew members to not improvise and disrupt the hidden agenda?
• It may also be simple pragmaticism for Skaa thieving crews to keep very tight control on information should any member ever be caught by the Steel Ministry. Look at how quickly everything fell apart when they believed that Marsh was caught and broken. The life lesson about information risk learned growing up with Marsh applies tenfold when running an entire crew that can get executed if a single job goes too far awry.

 

I'll also note that Kelsier has pretty much been outside of the law from day 1 without it ever really being his fault. A half-noble Skaa, he was illegal from birth, joined the underground where is chances of execution were lower, and became a deity (okay that last one is his fault, but he wasn't expecting to live with the new role, at least the first time). He's magically anchored to Scadrial so it's not like he can hop over to Roshar and live as a random ardent. He works from the shadows with the Ghostbloods, but what alternative does he have if he wants to still be involved with important dealings of Scadrial?  It's not like he can walk down the street to the local pub, hood down, sleeves rolled up, spike through his eye, and order a beer. Look at what kind of deference happens when MeLaan, MeLaan, reveals that she's a Faceless Immortal, now imagine if Kelsier showed up at the Governor's mansion. If Kelsier really wanted more control over Scadrial, I think has plenty of potential to gain more and has chosen not to, considering he is a major religious figure in both the North and the South. Mythology is different from theocracy. He has a big enough following that he could probably set himself up as an immortal ruler and he has chosen not to do so.

 

On the subject of lies,

Quote

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

Why would Kelsier not want the memory of him helping the Southerners to get out?

Edited January 3 by Duxredux

[The Stick77]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Why would Kelsier not want the memory of him helping the Southerners to get out?

To answer this one I think it’s less the memory of him helping the Southerners and more he didn’t want the fact that he was still alive and influencing Scadrial to get out. Kelsier is revered as a deity but the Ghostbloods aren’t exactly well known and I don’t think that Scadrial’s government would be particularly trusting of the Ghostbloods. I suppose that for the specific “helping the southerners” memory would also make the government more distrusting of the Ghostbloods if it appears that they are “taking a side” so to speak in the already tense political situation with the Malwish.

[QuantumAce]

My take is Kelsier is a good person at heart, and his initial motivation is usually to help people. However, he has an extreme, unchecked capacity for ruthlessness. That ruthlessness can twist or overwhelm his initial motivations. He takes "ends justify the means" to an extreme, and I believe his ego gets caught up in that. If you are going to do something destructive, why not do it with style? I can very easily see him taking a full heel turn as time passes and his humanity starts to wear. 

[SheepAreFluffy]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:52 AM, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier trust his crew in the sense that a good general makes sure he can trust his staff. But that does not mean that they are a democracy. In the end he makes the command decisions.

Yeah, he is ultimately the one who has to make the final call on everything, but that doesn't mean that he has to make decisions without even consulting anyone else. There's plenty of room for something along the lines of "OK, we'll talk this through, brainstorm it together, come up with different ideas, but then if we can't agree then we'll do it my way". And (from memory; it's been a while) that's generally how the crew operate through The Final Empire. Kelsier is vrey open to ideas and suggestions from others... up until the point where he isn't. For his final plan of martyrdom, he didn't involve anyone else at all. It wasn't just that he was the one making the command decision. He made the command decision and didn't tell anyone else about it. That's the part that really stuck with me.

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, SheepAreFluffy said:

Kelsier is vrey open to ideas and suggestions from others... up until the point where he isn't. For his final plan of martyrdom, he didn't involve anyone else at all. It wasn't just that he was the one making the command decision. He made the command decision and didn't tell anyone else about it. That's the part that really stuck with me.

To be fair, do you think his plan would have worked, if he had told the crew?

[Duxredux]

One of the bigger hints that Kelsier wasn't anticipating a long and healthy life was after Vin saved Elend from Shan and called out the crew for being noblemen without titles. You have the scene where Vin is crying in the mists and talks about how everyone leaves her and asks when Kelsier is going to leave her. Kelsier can't give a straight answer and Vin grows suspicious. Aaand this is Vin we're talking about who followed Kelsier into Kredik Shaw and got attacked by a murder of Inquisitors. She ran with him to their beleaguered army and talked him out of risking himself to protect them. I really don't think Vin would have taken Kelsier's martyr gambit well at all and may have tried to actively oppose it. Kelsier handpicked the crew because they were good people, and good people don't leave their mates to fall in the cacky.

I'll also note that Kelsier's self-sacrifice is echoed throughout the series by the entire crew. Most of the crew decided to send Elend and Vin away with Spook during the siege of Luthadel so that they would survive while the rest of them died (it failed because Spook knew and spilled the beans. Spook became the Survivor of the Flames. Vin and Elend chose to let themselves die to take down Ruin at the end. It might say something that while Kelsier hid his agenda, every single member of the main crew made a similar call to sacrifice themselves, though like Kelsier some of them lived to tell the tale. It's well established that Kelsier is good at reading people, even Shards, and among the entire crew I think there's an implicit acceptance to his martyr gambit (except maybe Marsh and he was mind controlled for half the trilogy). I'm not sure if Scadrial would have survived without Kelsier's example actually.

[SheepAreFluffy]

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

To be fair, do you think his plan would have worked, if he had told the crew?

Who knows? Beware of anyone who claims to be able to see the future. Hypothetically, from the perspective of Kelsier trying to decide whether to share his plan, I think there would be reasonable arguments that doing so could either increase or decrease the likelihood of success. On the one hand, by not telling them, they couldn't try to talk him out of it, they had a more authentic reaction to his death, there was no chance of the plan being revealed if any of them were compromised. On the other hand, if he had told them then they could have worked together to refine the plan and spot any flaws that he as a single individual might have missed, and if they knew the plan then they'd definitely be ready to do what was needed in the aftermath to move it along. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

From an out-of-universe perspective, I also think there's no reason why it couldn't have worked. If Brandon had chosen to have Kelsier share his plan to the crew and then have them all develop it together before it eventually worked out, then I don't think I'd have been left thinking "oh, how absurd, that plan could only have worked if nobody else knew about it". I don't think it would have been as dramatically satisfying if things had played out that way, but I don't think that it would have been unrealistic or unbelievable. So in short: I absolutely think that it could have worked.

I guess the question is, what were Kelsier's motivations for keeping the secret rather than telling everyone else? It's certainly possible that he did a very careful and considered cost-benefit analysis and determined that the plan was more likely to succeed if he kept it secret than if he didn't, that it was an entirely pragmatic decision. But for me and my interpretation of the character, that rings a bit false. I suspect it was more of an emotional decision than a calculated one. Some combination of a flare for the dramatic and a sense that he alone is the one who has to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders.

8 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I'll also note that Kelsier's self-sacrifice is echoed throughout the series by the entire crew. Most of the crew decided to send Elend and Vin away with Spook during the siege of Luthadel so that they would survive while the rest of them died (it failed because Spook knew and spilled the beans. Spook became the Survivor of the Flames. Vin and Elend chose to let themselves die to take down Ruin at the end. It might say something that while Kelsier hid his agenda, every single member of the main crew made a similar call to sacrifice themselves, though like Kelsier some of them lived to tell the tale. It's well established that Kelsier is good at reading people, even Shards, and among the entire crew I think there's an implicit acceptance to his martyr gambit (except maybe Marsh and he was mind controlled for half the trilogy). I'm not sure if Scadrial would have survived without Kelsier's example actually.

That's an interesting comparison with the siege of Luthadel. Because in that case, trying to send Vin and Elend away seems like it didn't work out at all. You can never say for sure what would have happened if they hadn't been sent away, and maybe things would have played out in such a way that Vin never figured out how to control the Koloss. But by and large, it seems that sending them away was absolutely the wrong choice and that it ended up costing lives. So we have one instance where the secretive self-sacrifice worked and one case where ti didn't, so it would be easy to say that Kelsier made the right call and then the others made the wrong call, but that's very results-oriented thinking. Yes, with hindsight this is the case, but at the time when the decisions were made? I don't think that either decision was made with enough information to really predict how they would turn out. So, personally speaking, I'm more inclined to forgive the crew for sending Vin and Elend away, because at least in that case it was a decision made by consensus of multiple people rather than one made unilaterally by a single individual. Individuals are more prone to making really bone-headed decisions, because all humans are flawed and we all have our blind spots. Yeah, Kelsier's decision worked out, but I mostly see that as him getting lucky more than anything else.

[The Stick77]

Whether or not Kelsier’s sacrifice was right is interesting. Clearly the ends justified the means here it overall worked and let the Skaa rebel but could he have told the crew? I honestly think they might’ve been able to talk him out of it. It’s clear how much the crew means to them and they really did have influence over him in a lot of ways. It’s all speculation obviously but I think he made the right decision doing it the way he did. Overall is he a good person? Maybe not initially but by the end of the original trilogy he definitely grew in a lot of ways. He definitely could be a dangerous person for the future of the Cosmere though. His goal is to protect Scadrial no matter what but it seems Scadrial is an aggressor in space age Cosmere. Will he defend his planet even if it doesn’t deserve it is a question that I am excited to see the answer to moving into eras 3 and 4.

[Lord Spirit]

I think Kelsier is partially all of the options, but not fully for most of them.

He does do some psychopathic moments, but he is clearly still (mostly) sane enough to create the ghostbloods.

He did things that he thinks are good (killing the lord ruler, letting vin ascend), but his perception of "Good" tends to align with his own self interest.

He cares about his appearance and enjoys having power, but I don't think his main goal is world or cosmere domination and I feel like he has a mostly realistic view of himself.

In total I think that his current priority is still the same as at the end of Secret history, to find a way to return to the physical realm and to get his powers back. Kelsier seems like a slightly less dangerous version of taravangien.

On 12/31/2023 at 12:37 PM, alder24 said:

This hatred that fueled him was a double-edged sword. It could have been easily used for "evil." And that's dangerous. He got better because of Vin, but did he fully get over his past self? Did he change? I don't know, I don't think so. He sparked another religion, he leads another "crew" with questionable goals and he judges what's right or wrong. 

also on a completely separate note this reminded me very much of Prof/Limelight, where they start out as a good person trying to help a desolate world with their "crew", but then end up changing. they both recreate their group to help them achieve their plans. obviously Kelsier isn't the same as the lord ruler, but he has shown a willingness to kill people who get in his way. Prof also changes sides for a very deliberate reason, but these are just some parallels I noticed, sorry if they're poorly explained.

[JPGU]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:50 PM, Lord Spirit said:

In total I think that his current priority is still the same as at the end of Secret history, to find a way to return to the physical realm and to get his powers back. Kelsier seems like a slightly less dangerous version of taravangien.

That mention you made of Taravangian reminded me of the following WoB that may be interesting for this topic:

Quote

Questioner

Would Kelsier approve of what Taravangian is doing?

Brandon Sanderson

No. He would not. He would understand it, but he would disapprove.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3330