Hemalurgy, era 3, and corrupt governments

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I was posting in the feruchemical rankings thread when a terrifying thought hit me.  

TLM has already shown us that hemalugy doesn't have to kill the person.  

WoBs indicate that the spiritwebs can be healed via Gold feruchemy post spiking. 

And era 2 as well as all of human history has proven that government will abuse its power if allowed. 

Do you think that an application of hemalurgy and gold medallions could be stripping powers from people and then allowing them to heal back enough of their soul to live a normal life powerless? 

If this is possible and the governments of future cosmere settings were to discover it how long until they deem specific powers as too dangerous and attempt to force those individuals to have the powers removed?  

I guess Rashek did this in a way by turning all feruchemists alive into mistwraiths at one point. 

I also assume that these benevolent governing bodies would immediately give those spiked powers to the indoctrinated police or military forces they choose to. 

A real slippery slope. 

[Quantus he/him]

44 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think that an application of hemalurgy and gold medallions could be stripping powers from people and then allowing them to heal back enough of their soul to live a normal life powerless? 

No, since the Gold Healing would be able to restore the missing Spiritweb including the stolen powers, per WOB, so it wouldnt remove them.  But I do fully expect they'd use Aluminum Spikes for this purpose, though it might be paired with a Supermax prison and not a parole system.  

 

[Longshot97 he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

No, since the Gold Healing would be able to restore the missing Spiritweb including the stolen powers, per WOB, so it wouldnt remove them.  But I do fully expect they'd use Aluminum Spikes for this purpose, though it might be paired with a Supermax prison and not a parole system.  

So, I'll edit the WoBs in later, Brandon has said that replacing the part of your Spiritweb associated with the Metallic Arts would require quite a bit of F-Gold.

Quote

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020)

You can simply skip to the end, the bold text is the important stuff.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Longshot97

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Longshot97 said:

So, I'll edit the WoBs in later, Brandon has said that replacing the part of your Spiritweb associated with the Metallic Arts would require quite a bit of F-Gold.

You can simply skip to the end, the bold text is the important stuff.

Thanks for the WoB. With a bit of limit testing it is totally possible to pay people to give abilities via hemalurgy while granting enough healing to heal the soul of everything but that invested ability.  

Frustrthis reminds me of the thread @Frustration made in warbreaker forum about the value of breath.  

How much do you think it would cost the rich and powerful to pay the impoverished yet genetically gifted people of scadrial to give up their powers?  I assume certain powers would sell for a lot more. 

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Longshot97 said:

So, I'll edit the WoBs in later, Brandon has said that replacing the part of your Spiritweb associated with the Metallic Arts would require quite a bit of F-Gold.

You can simply skip to the end, the bold text is the important stuff.

Ooh! OK, I see.  They can be healed part way.  That could work, though it leaves them capable of restoring their powers if they can get more healing. A really obvious Aluminum Spike through the Forehead or something would work better from a Crime&Punishment standpoint, though there's some ethics around the stigma and public shaming element of it. 

 

...side note:  Can you survive an Aluminum spike through the brain the way you can with other metals?  Standard Rules of Hemalurgy say Yes but it feels like too magical of an effect to work around Aluminum.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

28 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Ooh! OK, I see.  They can be healed part way.  That could work, though it leaves them capable of restoring their powers if they can get more healing. A really obvious Aluminum Spike through the Forehead or something would work better from a Crime&Punishment standpoint, though there's some ethics around the stigma and public shaming element of it. 

 

...side note:  Can you survive an Aluminum spike through the brain the way you can with other metals?  Standard Rules of Hemalurgy say Yes but it feels like too magical of an effect to work around Aluminum.  

So I assume that you have to be actively tapping large amounts of gold while the spike is being driven through anything vital to be healed in time.  

 

Even if you were using a medallion for the healing process is there a moment while using the power that you "have the power" to the point where the temporary F gold would be stolen as well?  

We also know you can't heal while aluminum is in you.  So it would likely push the off button anyways if it goes through the head right?  

My thought was not to commit genocide of all metalborn via hemalurgy but that the government could potentially mandate that specific powers be forfeited over to them via hemalurgy while allowing the person to live a normal power free life.  

Or in a different sphere of possibilities, that powers could be sold permanently to the highest bidder while simultaneously disarming the lower class of the metallic arts.  

 

[Quantus he/him]

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So I assume that you have to be actively tapping large amounts of gold while the spike is being driven through anything vital to be healed in time.  

 

Even if you were using a medallion for the healing process is there a moment while using the power that you "have the power" to the point where the temporary F gold would be stolen as well?  

Indeed you'd need the reserves available and at hand, though supposedly survival instinct will Tap any available gold to keep you alive without needing to consciously do it, and donating to Hemalurgy is generally lethal or pretty close.    

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We also know you can't heal while aluminum is in you.  So it would likely push the off button anyways if it goes through the head right?  

 

 

That's the question: It's not healing to survive the implantation of a Spike in the head's Bind Points, that's just the innate function of hemalurgy's realmics.  But as always, aluminum is special so I cant really say how it plays long-term.

[Duxredux he/him]

14 hours ago, Quantus said:

Ooh! OK, I see.  They can be healed part way.  That could work, though it leaves them capable of restoring their powers if they can get more healing. A really obvious Aluminum Spike through the Forehead or something would work better from a Crime&Punishment standpoint, though there's some ethics around the stigma and public shaming element of it. 

 

...side note:  Can you survive an Aluminum spike through the brain the way you can with other metals?  Standard Rules of Hemalurgy say Yes but it feels like too magical of an effect to work around Aluminum.  

 

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

That's the question: It's not healing to survive the implantation of a Spike in the head's Bind Points, that's just the innate function of hemalurgy's realmics.  But as always, aluminum is special so I cant really say how it plays long-term.

Isn't it only Hemalurgically charged spikes being placed that warps organ location? I don't think an uncharged spike will shift the organs around. This goes back to the debate over whether or not Aluminum can hold an Invested charge or not, but in this case notably on the Hemalurgic table Aluminum "Removes all powers". Not "steals", "removes".  Unless you want to add in the the ethics of charging the spike in the first place for the forehead spike (assuming it's even possible with Aluminum), doing this with an uncharged Aluminum spike will probably just leave them dead.

Side note, do you think the organ location warping is due to the Spiritweb having to shift to accommodate the additional piece of soul that is getting hotwired into the system?

 

Back to the OP, as for governmental control of powers... it will likely depend on what kind of controls are placed on Medallion tech or if there is a black market of Hemalurgic spikes and Medallions. Harvesting someone's Brute Ferring abilities could be pointless if they can go down the street or hit up the black market and pick up a medallion that gives the same power. We don't know how the Bands of Mourning were made, but they were, so granting Allomantic abilities via Unsealed Metalmind tech is possible.

Going beyond that don't forget that we already have seen a dictatorship government with a brutal police force that hunts down illegal power users and forcibly removes their abilities. That's the Steel Inquisitors in a nutshell, not just Rashek transforming all Feruchemists into Kandra. This also is direct opposition to Kelsier's agenda of democratizing powers, so either he would need to change his objectives to allow this government, or the government would need to be able to withstand the Survivor of Hathsin, because I can't see Kelsier letting this one slide, particularly if it was a visible government with easily assassinated figures. Not sure if this will change in future eras, but the current limits on Hemalurgically gained powers imposed by Harmony also will prevent another Lord Ruler from being created by this government. I'm also iffy about Harmony letting this slide either or if he would recruit another Dawnshot.

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

 

Isn't it only Hemalurgically charged spikes being placed that warps organ location? I don't think an uncharged spike will shift the organs around. This goes back to the debate over whether or not Aluminum can hold an Invested charge or not, but in this case notably on the Hemalurgic table Aluminum "Removes all powers". Not "steals", "removes".  Unless you want to add in the the ethics of charging the spike in the first place for the forehead spike (assuming it's even possible with Aluminum), doing this with an uncharged Aluminum spike will probably just leave them dead.

Duh, of course.  You are correct, I dont know what I was thinking.  Im generally in the camp that doesnt think Feruchemy or Hemalurgy actually impart a charge, so of course they wouldnt have the survival benefits (no death, no infection, etc).

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Side note, do you think the organ location warping is due to the Spiritweb having to shift to accommodate the additional piece of soul that is getting hotwired into the system?

I tend to picture it more like a shardblade, so when it's transitioning between realms it's more literally fuzzing out of the Physical Realm where it touches the blood and fuzzing back into the PR when it comes out on the other side.  Mostly because they also get spikes in major joints without any mechanical disruption, if I recall correctly.

It'll have to be earrings then, for prisoner control.  

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Back to the OP, as for governmental control of powers... it will likely depend on what kind of controls are placed on Medallion tech or if there is a black market of Hemalurgic spikes and Medallions. Harvesting someone's Brute Ferring abilities could be pointless if they can go down the street or hit up the black market and pick up a medallion that gives the same power. We don't know how the Bands of Mourning were made, but they were, so granting Allomantic abilities via Unsealed Metalmind tech is possible.

I think there will always be a hemalurgy black market, because they arent going to be able to scrub the knowledge entirely and it's available to anyone with more metal than morals.  It can also permanently steal attributes, that's something medallions cant do.  The rest depends on how well the medallion tech makes it to the masses and not just those with the money or bloodlines or whatever.  

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Going beyond that don't forget that we already have seen a dictatorship government with a brutal police force that hunts down illegal power users and forcibly removes their abilities. That's the Steel Inquisitors in a nutshell, not just Rashek transforming all Feruchemists into Kandra. This also is direct opposition to Kelsier's agenda of democratizing powers, so either he would need to change his objectives to allow this government, or the government would need to be able to withstand the Survivor of Hathsin, because I can't see Kelsier letting this one slide, particularly if it was a visible government with easily assassinated figures. Not sure if this will change in future eras, but the current limits on Hemalurgically gained powers imposed by Harmony also will prevent another Lord Ruler from being created by this government. I'm also iffy about Harmony letting this slide either or if he would recruit another Dawnshot.

Good points, all.  Counterpoint: Discord.  If Scadrial goes down a dark timeline it could end up fracturing into warring kindgoms like Sel or Nalthis. At that point a major hemalurgical movement feel all but inevitable somewhere, be it a religious movement or "scientific" research, or even a rival world/shard curious about Hemalurgy's potential.  

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I tend to picture it more like a shardblade, so when it's transitioning between realms it's more literally fuzzing out of the Physical Realm where it touches the blood and fuzzing back into the PR when it comes out on the other side.  Mostly because they also get spikes in major joints without any mechanical disruption, if I recall correctly.

But the body changes and twists. Brain wraps around spikes in the eyes, heart shifts etc. There is a physical change, HoA ch 41:

Quote

Hemalurgic spikes change people physically, depending on which powers are granted, where the spike is placed, and how many spikes someone has. Inquisitors, for instance, are changed drastically from the humans they used to be. Their hearts are in different places from those of humans, and their brains rearrange to accommodate the lengths of metal jabbed through their eyes.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Are Hemalurgic spikes fabrials? Is a body that has been spiked a fabrial? Are koloss and kandra also something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, actually.

[...]

Koloss and kandra are similar, though in this case, the soul is mostly just being distorted by using an Invested spike. In the cosmere, the body will attempt to match the soul, and so a twisted soul (Spiritual aspect of a person) can have profound effects on both mind and body.

FAQFriday 2017 (March 10, 2017)

The body changes because the spirit web was altered and twisted and the body tries to match those changes. Spikes are still in the body, they don't "fuzz out". They just hold a piece of a spirit web which isn't physical but spiritual, thus there is no need for any "fuzzing out."

13 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Good points, all.  Counterpoint: Discord.  If Scadrial goes down a dark timeline it could end up fracturing into warring kindgoms like Sel or Nalthis. At that point a major hemalurgical movement feel all but inevitable somewhere, be it a religious movement or "scientific" research, or even a rival world/shard curious about Hemalurgy's potential.  

I don't think that's who Discord will be, TFE ch 8:

Quote

His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.

The Cold War is starting on Scadrial. Discord would be more involved in aiding and giving knowledge to people in my opinion, not encouraging people to fight with each other. But it's likely Discord will encourage the use of Hemalurgy, even if Sazed doesn't like that.

However what will happen with limits on Hemalurgy if Harmony changes to Discord? Will they disappear? Change? Shift back like they used to be before Harmony?

[Quantus he/him]

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But the body changes and twists. Brain wraps around spikes in the eyes, heart shifts etc. There is a physical change, HoA ch 41

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

  Hide contents

Questioner

Are Hemalurgic spikes fabrials? Is a body that has been spiked a fabrial? Are koloss and kandra also something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, actually.

[...]

Koloss and kandra are similar, though in this case, the soul is mostly just being distorted by using an Invested spike. In the cosmere, the body will attempt to match the soul, and so a twisted soul (Spiritual aspect of a person) can have profound effects on both mind and body.

FAQFriday 2017 (March 10, 2017)

The body changes because the spirit web was altered and twisted and the body tries to match those changes. Spikes are still in the body, they don't "fuzz out". They just hold a piece of a spirit web which isn't physical but spiritual, thus there is no need for any "fuzzing out."

Ah, I stand corrected.  Thanks!

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think that's who Discord will be, TFE ch 8:

The Cold War is starting on Scadrial. Discord would be more involved in aiding and giving knowledge to people in my opinion, not encouraging people to fight with each other. But it's likely Discord will encourage the use of Hemalurgy, even if Sazed doesn't like that.

However what will happen with limits on Hemalurgy if Harmony changes to Discord? Will they disappear? Change? Shift back like they used to be before Harmony?

I could still see Discord influence and/or the cold war itself leading to a simple fracturing or nations, cultures, and ideologies, which in turn will create more diversity in how all three metallic arts will be used.  War has historically good for giving bad people a supply of victims to experiment on, and a strong motivator to set aside morals for results.  

And that assumes no other Shards (or off-world refugees....) show up that bring their own flavor and mindset to the party.  Hemalurgy is one of the rare magic systems anyone can learn to use anywhere, which Im sure will be enticing for many.