Implication of anti-Investiture

[Hmmm lies she/her]

So naturally with the existence of anti-light, there could be anti-Breaths, anti-Dor, and maybe even anti-mist. So I was wondering if these things could be used for an Invested Art if you didn't have any of the normal form of Investiture in you. That meaning, could you awaken with anti-Breath, or use AonDor with anti-Dor

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 minutes ago, Hmmm lies said:

So naturally with the existence of anti-light, there could be anti-Breaths, anti-Dor, and maybe even anti-mist. So I was wondering if these things could be used for an Invested Art if you didn't have any of the normal form of Investiture in you. That meaning, could you awaken with anti-Breath, or use AonDor with anti-Dor

I kind of feel like the anti-s are going to be just as, if not more important in the future of the cosmere compared to the magic systems we see now.  

The magics are so strong and nearly every book already hinges on a moment of not having the magic and needing to get it back or figure out how to do what you need to do without it.

Anti systems are just a good break from "and then her pewter ran out." Or "and then his stormlight ran out."  

The ability to say "and then they entered a zone where all of their powers stopped working." Is just a nice break. 

Just like aluminum was a good shock when Vin burnt it. Just like when a chromium filled primer cube was used to sap Wax of his powers.  The more ways to strip these demigods down to mere mortals without being too repetitive the better for the writing. 

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Hmmm lies said:

So naturally with the existence of anti-light, there could be anti-Breaths, anti-Dor, and maybe even anti-mist. So I was wondering if these things could be used for an Invested Art if you didn't have any of the normal form of Investiture in you. That meaning, could you awaken with anti-Breath, or use AonDor with anti-Dor

Everybody is always invested. This won't work because your very soul is made out of investiture and it would interact with anti-investiture you're trying to use, annihilating each other. You can't hold anti-Breaths, that would just kill you. The same goes with ingesting anti-Dor, anti-light or any anti-investiture - it would just interact with your soul. To make AonDor working with external sources like a jar of Dor, you need to ingest that, therefore you need to ingest anti-Dor first. If you find a way to avoid doing that and make Aons feed directly on anti-Dor, you might make them work. But in most invested arts the investiture fueling them flows through you, affecting your soul - with anti-investiture that would be deadly.

You might be able to create something like anti-spike or anti-metalmind, just invest it in the regular way and then turn it into anti-investiture like Navani did, but the moment you put that anti-spike into somebody, or somebody taps that anti-metalmind, it would harm or kill them - which would be a different way of distributing anti-investiture, which doesn't require Raysium. Anti-metalmind is tricky because you need to convince somebody to tap it (or made it unsealed and be able to force tapping onto a person wearing it, something that doesn't exist yet, but could be done as medallions already allow you to store/tap while sleeping, while with normal metalminds it's impossible), but anti-spike is easy to make and by the rules of Hemalurgy, it attaches itself to the soul of a recipient, providing an opportunity for anti-investiture to annihilate with your soul. You could probably even stab it into a wrong binding point as long as you intend to use it as a hemalurgic spike.

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested anti-lerasium or anti-atium, assuming they don't explode?

Brandon Sanderson

If you are not highly Invested yourself, and you get the anti[-Investiture], it's not gonna be a fun time. You won't explode, but it will kill you, almost assuredly. Not a fun time, but not an explosively not-a-fun-time, just a regular old not-a-fun-time. Maybe a little bit like pouring molten metal down your throat.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Spoiler

R'Shara

Does anti-Investiture react to a different Shard’s Investiture in any significant way?

Brandon Sanderson

The answer is kind of a no, kind of a yes. Mostly a no. Anti-Investiture is going to have an explosive reaction. But the thing is, if it’s anti-Investiture of a specific Shard, that explosion is much grander. But you can make that explosion happen in a just antimatter-and-matter same sort of thing. But you can make the explosion bigger.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Expect anti-investiture to be used as a way to negate invested arts, or to kill invested individuals like CS, but not to fuel invested arts directly. 

[Hmmm lies she/her]

Your idea with the metalminds/spikes gives me another idea, could you Awaken something with Breaths, then turn them into anti-Breaths, I guess you could trap a "Your Breath to mine" that way. I also wonder if you could use anti-Investiture to hurt/damage Nightblood.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Hmmm lies said:

Your idea with the metalminds/spikes gives me another idea, could you Awaken something with Breaths, then turn them into anti-Breaths, I guess you could trap a "Your Breath to mine" that way.

Maybe, but the Awakened object would most likely stop working.

4 minutes ago, Hmmm lies said:

I also wonder if you could use anti-Investiture to hurt/damage Nightblood.

That's a good question. If he were to consume it then yes, but only in large amounts. He is basically a god metal and those are more resilient to anti-investiture than other types of investiture (Raysium dagger didn't react with anti-Voidlight).

Spoiler

Kael_the_Adventurer

Did Nightblood's Awakening transform it into a God Metal?

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitant* Yes, you could say that.

Adam Horne

Was that a permanent change, or was that just while...

Brandon Sanderson

You can argue that Nightblood is a God Metal. Is he? You could argue otherwise as well. How about that?

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

TopicCharming2157

Living Shardblades are the physical manifestation of spren. If Moash had used Raboniel's anti-Stormlight charged dagger to stab a spren while in Shardblade form, would it kill the spren? (Like Kaladin forming a Syl shield to guard a stab)

Brandon Sanderson

Physical form of a spren is going to be more resilient to this.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

Spoiler

TheBurningDusk

In Rhythm of War, why did the anti-Voidlight not react with the raysium in the dagger?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that for now. Good question, but... yeah, there's some reasons here.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

[Returned]

I'm also curious about other properties of anti-Investiture. It seems to me, at present, that it is something like a cognitive/physical twisting of something that, in itself, doesn't have properties like "ordinary" or "anti-ordinary". By which I mean that anti-Investiture isn't a thing that existed before the theories and processes which first produced it-- it has qualities derived from what qualities people think it should have based on how they made it. It's all the same stuff (Investiture) which comes from the same source (the Spiritual Realm) and then is changed (cognitively? physically? both?) while it's wherever it is (a distinctly physical concept with cognitive mediation).

In any case it is sort of a category error to presume that it has many characteristics beyond what we've seen specifically in text and WoBs, if only because we've seen such narrow instances of it. It annihilates Investiture on contact, particularly if the Investiture/anti-Investiture components are in the same form (mediated by Shards' influence).

So beyond that the sky's the limit for what we think anti-Investiture could do. I'm warming up to the idea that the conversion from ordinary- to anti-Investiture is going to be a pretty big deal, even beyond being an implicit limit on how and when characters can use their "ordinary" Investiture-derived powers. If converting Investiture to anti-Investiture is something that can be generally done, as Navani's and Raboniel's work suggests, then why couldn't a soul be converted to an anti-soul, which could then make use of anti-Investiture forms for magical effects? Would those effects be the same as the ordinary magics, their opposites, or something completely different? Could an anti-soul be riddled with anti-Hemalurgic spikes, thereby gaining access to Fullborn powers but beyond Harmony's control or influence?

It would be interesting to have an axis of conflict that isn't just Shards squabbling, especially since we've reached a kind of plateau on magic power escalation. Anti-Investiture provides a possible avenue to that: power which is on par with Shards in nature but removed from the state of conflict that has existed since the Shattering.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Returned said:

I'm also curious about other properties of anti-Investiture. It seems to me, at present, that it is something like a cognitive/physical twisting of something that, in itself, doesn't have properties like "ordinary" or "anti-ordinary". By which I mean that anti-Investiture isn't a thing that existed before the theories and processes which first produced it-- it has qualities derived from what qualities people think it should have based on how they made it. It's all the same stuff (Investiture) which comes from the same source (the Spiritual Realm) and then is changed (cognitively? physically? both?) while it's wherever it is (a distinctly physical concept with cognitive mediation).

I don't get what you mean by this. Anti-investiture existed before it was created - the laws of Cosmere allowed it to exist even if it wasn't there. Maybe, just like with anti-matter in our universe, there are pockets of anti-investiture distribution here and there, being the remnants of Cosmere Big Bang. The properties of anti-investiture are therefore defined by the unchanging laws of Cosmere. There is of course a Cognitive component added to it - like it's always the case with investiture - perception can influence anti-investiture to some degree, but I wouldn't say that perception shapes its properties now because it never existed before. 

Raw investiture itself transcends all 3 Realms, I wouldn't say it has a clear cognitive component/manifestation, like other objects have (Realmatic theory - everything has a manifestation in all 3 Realms, like a stick has a bead in CR), so there is nothing to twist here - if this is what you meant by that.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

What is the Realmatic composition of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Investure is intended to be the building blocks of the cosmere so I would say for the most part it transcends the different realms. Probably more of the Spiritual if anything but more accurately it transcends them.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

 

16 minutes ago, Returned said:

If converting Investiture to anti-Investiture is something that can be generally done, as Navani's and Raboniel's work suggests, then why couldn't a soul be converted to an anti-soul, which could then make use of anti-Investiture forms for magical effects?

I don't think that would work. Soul exists in SR, where investiture exists as well. Anti-soul would be annihilated there. All the Connections and stuff like would be separated as well, your body is technically a form of investiture - I really can't see this working in any other way than instant death.

[Returned]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Anti-investiture existed before it was created - the laws of Cosmere allowed it to exist even if it wasn't there.

That's not what I mean. Harmonium always could exist, but for a very long time it didn't. When it suddenly did exist it had specific properties which derived from the specific circumstances of Harmony's existence, and we know that those properties did not need to be the same as what they actually were (whether or not that would affect Harmonium's properties I'm not sure we know). The specific Shards of Adonalsium that exist always could have existed, as well as countless ones that don't, but it would be absurd  to say that the properties of Honor are identical to those of Odium, or that either would be the same as some totally different Shard that wasn't created in the Shattering. Bound by similar principles and limitations, sure, but very different in the specifics of each one.

The specific properties that anti-Investiture actually has is exactly what this thread is about, and to say that "whatever those properties are is possible within the laws of the Cosmere" is tautologically true but uninformative.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Raw investiture itself transcends all 3 Realms, I wouldn't say it has a clear cognitive component/manifestation, like other objects have (Realmatic theory - everything has a manifestation in all 3 Realms, like a stick has a bead in CR), so there is nothing to twist here - if this is what you meant by that.

This is off target for what I'm describing as well. It's clearly true that Investiture has specific forms which are not directly interchangeable, as in the many WoBs about fueling magics with forms from different planets-- all Investiture, but with different specific properties as it's manifested here rather than there. Stormlight isn't Voidlight, even though they're both Investiture. Anti-light is neither. Something causes them to be different, even though it's all made of the same stuff, and those differences matter in at least some applications. Even two forms of regular Investiture, such as those contained in Harmonium, can annihilate in a manner similar to what has been described for Investiture and anti-Investiture.

And in different realms Investiture has properties which it does not in the Spiritual. There is no location in the Spiritual realm, but the Stormlight in a sphere does have a physical location in the Physical and Cognitive realms. If you carry a sphere of Light from the Physical realm to the Cognitive, you have brought some Investiture to the Cognitive that wasn't "there" before. Even though spiritual energy is everywhere, a Radiant can't just drink Stormlight from arbitrarily far away (as far as we know, for now), so those additive properties have real impacts and consequences for how they interact within different realms.

So my suggestion is that Investiture in the Physical realm isn't exactly just "raw" Investiture, but Investiture that has a specific form and specific properties. Some of those are innate (what Investiture "is", at a fundamental level), some of those are Shard-mediated (how a Shard Invests that power in a location), and some are elements inherent to a given realm (like physical location being a necessary component in the Physical realm, though less so in the Cognitive). Anti-Investiture also has at least some of this additive characteristic, as evidenced by Sanderson's description of the form of anti-Investiture causing different reactions (in scale, at least) with specific forms of Investiture. And since the only instance we've seen of anti-Investiture was created by mortals in the Physical realm alone via mechanical methods, it's not crazy to think that anti-Investiture might have some local properties influenced by those factors.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think that would work. Soul exists in SR, where investiture exists as well. Anti-soul would be annihilated there. All the Connections and stuff like would be separated as well, your body is technically a form of investiture - I really can't see this working in any other way than instant death.

Souls exist in multiple realms at all times, just as you say Investiture does. So if the connection is constant, how can anti-Investiture exist at all without immediately annihilating, as it's constantly connected to the all-Investiture Spiritual realm? We obviously don't know the specifics, but the answer is "somehow", since we've seen it happen. If it can happen in one application, then perhaps it could in another. Severing all Connections might indeed be a necessary part of any method that could even potentially succeed, if such a method exists at all. Or perhaps some mad Cosmere scientist builds an anti-soul from scratch for just such a purpose, housed in a Raysium bodysuit or something. And all in a setting dominated by magic, which makes the impossible possible through mystical means.

It's obvious that we have virtually no information about anti-Investiture, and what we do have is a bit fragmented, so we can't be very precise in our guesses about what it is like and what it can or cannot do. Any specific guess is probably unlikely to actually come to pass. I really appreciate your posts and the work you do with bringing citations to the board, especially your deep pulls of WoBs and intricate analyses of published material. But I think that in this case you're overinterpreting what we already know to be incomplete, fragmented information about something we've barely seen. I respect your opinion that anti-Investiture is and will little more than an antimatter analogue.

To me, that sounds like a dull, one-note magic-dampening-super-murdering plot device, albeit with explosive potential. Just an arbitrary MacGuffin. I think that the books will be more imaginative and surprising than that. We've got an awful lot of pages to go for anti-Investiture to be so... limited.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Returned

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, Returned said:

That's not what I mean. Harmonium always could exist, but for a very long time it didn't. When it suddenly did exist it had specific properties which derived from the specific circumstances of Harmony's existence, and we know that those properties did not need to be the same as what they actually were (whether or not that would affect Harmonium's properties I'm not sure we know).

Harmonium is not comparable to anti-investiture. It represents the Shard of Harmony, thus its properties are derived from Harmony directly. Anti-investiture however is just the opposite "charge"/tone of investiture. Theoretically mixing Ruin and Preservation's investiture together before Sazed Ascend wouldn't result in Harmonium, but inverting the tone of any investiture before Navani or Gavilar did that, would always make anti-investiture (as long as intent was there). Antimatter has the opposite electric and magnetic charge, anti-investiture has the opposite tone (and maybe more, that we still don't know about). This is what defines its properties in Cosmere, whatever they are. That's what I meant by "it existed before it was created." 

30 minutes ago, Returned said:

This is off target for what I'm describing as well. It's clearly true that Investiture has specific forms which are not directly interchangeable, as in the many WoBs about fueling magics with forms from different planets-- all Investiture, but with different specific properties as it's manifested here rather than there. Stormlight isn't Voidlight, even though they're both Investiture. Anti-light is neither. Anti-light is neither. Something causes them to be different, even though it's all made of the same stuff, and those differences matter in at least some applications.

Of course, I'm not denying it. Stormlight is keyed to Honor and that defines its properties. Properties of a specific type of anti-investiture would be based on the original type of investiture - Anti-Stormlight would be different than Anti-Voidlight because their tones are different. But Anti-Stormlight would still annihilate in contact with Anti-Voidlight - their tones are opposite enough to make this reaction. 

34 minutes ago, Returned said:

Even two forms of regular Investiture, such as those contained in Harmonium, can annihilate in a manner similar to what has been described for Investiture and anti-Investiture.

They DON'T annihilate. It's a fission process, more or less, not annihilation. Ruin's investiture is not anti-Preservation's investiture. Only a fraction of Harmonium is converted into energy and that's only when Trellium is applied. It's not annihilation, it's not a matter-antimatter reaction, just something similar to fission, where bonds holding Ruin and Preservation's particles together are released as energy.

Spoiler

Ironeyes

So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.

Ironeyes

So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion then it's a different metal, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, and...

Ironeyes

So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.

Brandon Sanderson

Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah. But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the Cosmere. And to Scadrial.

Ironeyes

So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a Cosmere equivalent. To - I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the Cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right? Matter, energy, Investiture. You have a third axis that, you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more - that are controlled by me, right, that are built on this idea. So once you add *inaudible*, matter now can exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

 

42 minutes ago, Returned said:

So my suggestion is that Investiture in the Physical realm isn't exactly just "raw" Investiture, but Investiture that has a specific form and specific properties.

Yes, it's keyed, physical investiture in one of 4 forms, with properties derived from its Shard's nature. By raw investiture I meant here physical investiture in general.

51 minutes ago, Returned said:

Some of those are innate (what Investiture "is", at a fundamental level), some of those are Shard-mediated (how a Shard Invests that power in a location), and some are elements inherent to a given realm (like physical location being a necessary component in the Physical realm, though less so in the Cognitive). Anti-Investiture also has at least some of this additive characteristic, as evidenced by Sanderson's description of the form of anti-Investiture causing different reactions (in scale, at least) with specific forms of Investiture

Agreed on that. 

51 minutes ago, Returned said:

And since the only instance we've seen of anti-Investiture was created by mortals in the Physical realm alone via mechanical methods, it's not crazy to think that anti-Investiture might have some local properties influenced by those factors.

What kinds of properties? Stormlight is still Stormlight no matter where on Roshar it's used and by whom. People's perception doesn't influence Stormlight's properties. Here I disagree. I didn't understand what properties you were talking earlier.

55 minutes ago, Returned said:

Souls exist in multiple realms at all times, just as you say Investiture does. So if the connection is constant, how can anti-Investiture exist at all without immediately annihilating, as it's constantly connected to the all-Investiture Spiritual realm?

No. A spirit web is in the Spiritual Realm. It's the spiritual manifestation of a person, just like a "flame" is the Cognitive manifestation of a person. A spirit web exists in SR with Connections connecting it to other Realms, while anti-investiture was made from physical investiture which is physical, but still transcends all realms, thus can interact with souls or cognitive entities like spren. 

1 hour ago, Returned said:

Severing all Connections might indeed be a necessary part of any method that could even potentially succeed, if such a method exists at all.

That means death, as you sever your Connection to your body and to PR and CR.

At best you could trap your soul in a gemstone and turn it anti. But then what? Maybe some anti-spren made entirely out of raw anti-investiture, thus affected by perception just like spren are. But if you just turn your soul anti, you would die, as what makes you you is gone - all your connections are severed, identity screwed, and at worse it would get annihilated immediately because of investiture in SR. That's why I said it's hard for me to see anti-soul working. I don't know how anti-investiture which exists in SR behaves and interacts - if it can be there without interacting with normal investiture, than maybe you can do something more with it. I doubt that however. 

1 hour ago, Returned said:

It's obvious that we have virtually no information about anti-Investiture, and what we do have is a bit fragmented, so we can't be very precise in our guesses about what it is like and what it can or cannot do.

True.

1 hour ago, Returned said:

But I think that in this case you're overinterpreting what we already know to be incomplete, fragmented information about something we've barely seen. I respect your opinion that anti-Investiture is and will little more than an antimatter analogue.

To me, that sounds like a dull, one-note magic-dampening-super-murdering plot device, albeit with explosive potential. Just an arbitrary MacGuffin. I think that the books will be more imaginative and surprising than that. We've got an awful lot of pages to go for anti-Investiture to be so... limited.

You can make entire stars out of antimatter - you can make a lot with anti-investiture, but there are probably some limitations because of the existence of SR in Cosmere.  I don't doubt much more would be made with anti-investiture in the future, however I doubt it would be just a mirror reflection of normal investiture. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/14/2023 at 6:38 PM, alder24 said:

But Anti-Stormlight would still annihilate in contact with Anti-Voidlight - their tones are opposite enough to make this reaction. 

Do we know this? The only WoB I remember on the topic contradicts itself and says both ways, but I may have missed another. It feels notable to me that the anti-tones sound completely normal to people not Invested by the Shard it opposes, though.

On 12/14/2023 at 6:38 PM, alder24 said:

They DON'T annihilate. It's a fission process, more or less, not annihilation. Ruin's investiture is not anti-Preservation's investiture. Only a fraction of Harmonium is converted into energy and that's only when Trellium is applied. It's not annihilation, it's not a matter-antimatter reaction, just something similar to fission, where bonds holding Ruin and Preservation's particles together are released as energy.

The book specifically says the opposite:

Spoiler

“This explosion was not caused by the division of the metals,” VenDell said. “This level of energy release could happen only if some of the Investiture or the matter itself was transformed into energy.”

 

On 12/14/2023 at 4:48 PM, Returned said:

So if the connection is constant, how can anti-Investiture exist at all without immediately annihilating, as it's constantly connected to the all-Investiture Spiritual realm? We obviously don't know the specifics, but the answer is "somehow", since we've seen it happen.

Related thing I've been wondering about—we know that the reason Stormlight glows in a gem is because it's plugged into the Spiritual and drawing stuff out:

Spoiler

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Presumably it's "screwed into" the Shard... but if so what is anti-Stormlight screwed into?

[alder24]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Do we know this? The only WoB I remember on the topic contradicts itself and says both ways, but I may have missed another. It feels notable to me that the anti-tones sound completely normal to people not Invested by the Shard it opposes, though.

This:

Spoiler

R'Shara

Does anti-Investiture react to a different Shard’s Investiture in any significant way?

Brandon Sanderson

The answer is kind of a no, kind of a yes. Mostly a no. Anti-Investiture is going to have an explosive reaction. But the thing is, if it’s anti-Investiture of a specific Shard, that explosion is much grander. But you can make that explosion happen in a just antimatter-and-matter same sort of thing. But you can make the explosion bigger.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

Voidlight reacting with Anti-Voidlight will generate a big explosion, Voidlight will still react with Anti-Stormlight.

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The book specifically says the opposite:

Which is like fission, not annihilation. Matter/investiture turning into energy like when atoms are split. There is no annihilation here happening. There is no anti-investiture reacting with investiture. I may have gone overboard with my attempts to explain it in more detail (bonds into energy).

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Related thing I've been wondering about—we know that the reason Stormlight glows in a gem is because it's plugged into the Spiritual and drawing stuff out:

  Reveal hidden contents

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Presumably it's "screwed into" the Shard... but if so what is anti-Stormlight screwed into?

Interesting. I think Anti-light is still "screwed" into their respective Shards, but because their tone is inverted, they also suck the light into SR and not just emit it. Anti-Voidlight still glows as Voidlight, but has this faint warping around it. RoW ch 16:

Quote

The Voidlight sphere had a strange glow to it. A distinctive purple-on-black, which Rushu described as a hyperviolet—a color she claimed existed in theory, though Navani didn’t know how a color could be theoretical. Regardless, this was a purple-on-black, coexisting in such a way that both shades simultaneously occupied the same space.
The strange sphere that Szeth had provided seemed exactly the same at first glance. Purple upon black, an impossible color. Like the ordinary Voidlight sphere, its blackness expanded, making the surrounding air dim.
But there was an added effect with this sphere, one she hadn’t noticed right away. It warped the air around it. Looking at the sphere for too long was a distinctively disorienting sensation. It evoked a wrongness that she couldn’t define.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

This:

Yeah that's the self-contradictory WoB I'm talking about. It both says that there would be no reaction and that it would explode.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Matter/investiture turning into energy like when atoms are split. There is no annihilation here happening.

I'm not sure how else to interpret him saying it's not from the division of the metals. Can you elaborate on how you're reading it?

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

There is no anti-investiture reacting with investiture.

Sure, but that wasn't the claim, it was that two regular Investitures can in some cases react the same way (which we seemingly also see with Vin killing Ati in Era 1).

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

because their tone is inverted, they also suck the light into SR and not just emit it

Wdym?

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'm not sure how else to interpret him saying it's not from the division of the metals. Can you elaborate on how you're reading it?

Cutting Harmonium into two halves with Trellium - it's not a chemical reaction caused by the repulsive property of Trellium. The quote specifically said "turning investiture or matter into energy" - which is fission/fusion (and annihilation too). But here fission is a more similar reaction - there were not only Harmonium leftovers but also Atium/Lerasium products. 

8 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Sure, but that wasn't the claim

I just protested the use of the word "annihilate" in the context of Harmonium because that implies matter-antimatter (or in Cosmere investiture anti-investiture) reaction. Just "react in the similar way as investiture anti-investiture" is totally fine - they both explode. 

Just a little bit of nitpicking.

12 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

it was that two regular Investitures can in some cases react the same way (which we seemingly also see with Vin killing Ati in Era 1).

Yes, that phrasing is totally fine and correct. 

16 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Wdym?

I couldn't find a quote which said it, but on the Coppermind is said:

Quote

though unlike regular Lights, it appears to warp the air around it, almost as if it is drawing light instead of emitting it

Thus it might be that anti-light not only glows like normal light (as proven by the quote in my previous post) but warps space around it, kind of like a mini black hole, which sucks light passing by into the sphere, into the SR. 

That's the only way I can think of to explain the warping and "drawing light." It doesn't make much sense for it to emit and consume light at the same time, but it makes sense for inverted light to suck in light instead of glowing. 

Alternatively, now I think about it, the warping of air might be cause by imperfect gemstone leaking anti-light. So it's not the part of the glow, it's just investiture getting out of the gemstone. In a perfect gemstone there would be no warping if that was true. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:03 PM, alder24 said:

I just protested the use of the word "annihilate" in the context of Harmonium because that implies matter-antimatter (or in Cosmere investiture anti-investiture) reaction. Just "react in the similar way as investiture anti-investiture" is totally fine - they both explode. 

Ah right, fair enough.

On 12/21/2023 at 1:03 PM, alder24 said:

I couldn't find a quote which said it, but on the Coppermind is said:

I suspect this is someone conflating the warping with Voidlight's normal visual effect (which I've seen happen a few times) since I can't find anything either, but hard to be sure without asking whoever wrote that line what they meant.

On 12/21/2023 at 1:03 PM, alder24 said:

Alternatively, now I think about it, the warping of air might be cause by imperfect gemstone leaking anti-light. So it's not the part of the glow, it's just investiture getting out of the gemstone.

Personally, my running theory has been similar: that it's minuscule amounts of anti-Light leaking and reacting with ambient Investiture left over from highstorms and such that's just kind of latently hanging around the environment.

[WordOfBrandon]

Quote

 Dakhor can also grant the ability to negate Aons drawn by Elantrians,^[20]

coppermind dakhor

Just wanted to point out that we may have already seen arts that have the potential to do do anti-dor.  

[alder24]

6 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

coppermind dakhor

Just wanted to point out that we may have already seen arts that have the potential to do do anti-dor.  

That's not anti-investiture, Dakhor monks draw from the same Dor that Elantrians draw. That's simply something like a leeching ability, that Leechers on Scadrial have or Larkins on Roshar. Elantrians can do the same. 

Spoiler

mistlepro

my question was Aona/Skai Shards shattering the event we saw the aftermath of in Elantris? Or a further final apocalypse?

Brandon Sanderson

The events in Elantris happened many years before The Way of Kings. That’s all I’ve said for now.

mistlepro

But I thought the monks of Dakhor and the ChayShin(?) were all AonDor related? The energy familiars are related to Skai?

Brandon Sanderson

What the Dakhor did accessed the Dor, but it was not AonDor—they weren’t using Aons, but different symbols.

General Twitter 2011 (Jan. 5, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Loose Threads

You'll notice, therefore, that I pile on the lose threads here. The most important one, of course, is the concept that Fjorden has gained access to the Dor (presumably recently.) The Dakhor are a newer development–Wyrn was just getting ready to use them against Elantris when the city fell on its own. (Dilaf wasn't the only Dakhor plant inside Arelon. But, those are stories for another time.) Anyway, I think I gave myself plenty of sequel room here. There are the questions about the Dor, about Fjorden, and about the seons.

[...]

Elantris Annotations (May 19, 2006)

 

Spoiler

Argent (paraphrased)

If a Dakhor (Dilaf) could erase a symbol written by an Elantrian (Raoden), could an Elantrian erase/heal a Dhakor bone-symbol?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is a theoretical possibility, but not a specialization of AonDor. 

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

 

[Hmmm lies she/her]

I wonder, if you somehow got enough anti-Investiture, could you make an anti-Shard? Likely there would be an explosion due to the Investiture in the Vessels soul, but becoming a Shard would prevent that from doing any damage. I figure they could then create humans with anti-Investiture in their souls rather then Investiture, and perhaps they could use anti-Investiture in their Invested Arts

[Duxredux he/him]

1 hour ago, Hmmm lies said:

I wonder, if you somehow got enough anti-Investiture, could you make an anti-Shard? Likely there would be an explosion due to the Investiture in the Vessels soul, but becoming a Shard would prevent that from doing any damage. I figure they could then create humans with anti-Investiture in their souls rather then Investiture, and perhaps they could use anti-Investiture in their Invested Arts

I have a couple things on this.

First, the concept of making enough anti-Investiture to even hurt a Shard, let alone create an entire anti-Shard is a ludicrous amount of Investiture. So huge with the Investiture often so thoroughly integrated into a system as to be practicably impossible. It's like trying to move all of the water on Earth to Mars - including everything in groundwater, atmosphere, oceans, and organic tissue. It's like trying to extract the element of carbon entirely from a planet. Now you probably only need to get over the 50% threshold and not have the two opposing halves annihilate one another, at which point the Investiture might naturally attune itself to the "anti-Shard". If this was at all possible, expect really weird stuff at this kind of boundary.

Second, based on how I understood Navani's methodology, anti-Investiture is only relevant within the context that it is in a phase opposed to what we consider normal Investiture. The analog to noise cancelation that Navani uses to create anti-Voidlight uses the principle that sound has a wavelength and that that if you were to generate a sound with an inverted phase it would cancel out. See below:

Source: https://www.soundguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/constructive-destructive-interference-sine-waves.jpg

In other words, if you were to convert all of a type of Investiture into the anti-Investiture, it would act exactly the same as the original Investiture. The tone of Anti-Voidlight sounds identical Voidlight, it's just that the phase is inverted. At any rate, if you can separate this much Investiture from a Shard, then you basically have accomplished splitting a Shard similar to the Shattering, and you may have similar issues with pulling this much Investiture away from a Shard and not having it either become sentient or require a Vessel.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Duxredux

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Hmmm lies said:

I wonder, if you somehow got enough anti-Investiture, could you make an anti-Shard? Likely there would be an explosion due to the Investiture in the Vessels soul, but becoming a Shard would prevent that from doing any damage. I figure they could then create humans with anti-Investiture in their souls rather then Investiture, and perhaps they could use anti-Investiture in their Invested Arts

A Shard's power is practically infinite. To make enough anti-investiture to kill or seriously harm the entire Shard you would need a ridiculous amount of anti-investiture. At best you might be able to make enough to kill Shard's Vessel, just like Nightblood did.

But you want to make an entire anti-Shard, so that requires you to make a practically infinite amount of anti-investiture - do you see a problem here?

Secondly, a Shard exists primarily in SR, where space and time are one. Anti-Shard would have to exit there as well, and "share the same space" with all investiture of other Shards (with which it can still interact destructively per WoB quoted in one of the posts of mine above). I see it very likely that any anti-investiture in SR would just annihilate with investiture there, so it would be impossible for anti-Shard to even exist. But that's my opinion, not something confirmed.

Either way, creating that much anti-investiture to make a Shard is beyond mortal abilities and such entity would constantly interact with other Shards and other investiture when it tries to do something  thus it would keeps getting smaller and smaller. That anti-investiture would eventually return as investiture of its original Shard and all would be back to normal. 

Spoiler

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

Spoiler

James Clifford

Science question!

Brandon Sanderson

Ohh science. Is it real science, or fake science?

Adam Horne

It is Brandon science.

Brandon Sanderson

Fake science!

James Clifford

With the discovery of anti-Investiture in Rhythm of War, would the correct form of anti-Investiture be usable to clear up the mess in the Sel Cognitive Realm. If so, would this completely destroy a splintered Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

*laughs, coughs, and is otherwise stunned* That would not be a good idea. So why would that not be a good idea? So no, this would not clear up the problem. The problem that's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Sel is that a bunch of Investiture that should be in the Spiritual Realm has been packed into the Cognitive Realm instead, through a very weird circumstance of events. If you were to introduce a bunch of anti-Investiture of the right type there, you would just generate an explosion that would be a very bad thing. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, Investiture can't be either, so it's actually changing forms. It's going from Investiture into energy! Which you know, does not leave the system. So the investiture would eventually make its way back around, you can't destroy anything in the Cosmere, just like you can't destroy anything in our universe. But you can make it change forms. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware.

It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)