Kandra Blessings and A-duralumin/nicrosil

[Trusk'our he/him]

@Cocoa recently made a post questioning about what would happen if an Aviar or its Bonded person were to have a Leecher or Nicroburst try to affect them with their power, and it got me thinking along a similar line of reasoning; what if a Kandra were to use A-duralumin or have a Nicroburst charge them up?

Their spikes don't seem to run out of power, so it the effect not considered Kinetic Investiture and therefore not a valid target for enhancement Allomancy?

And if the powers were able to be affected by enhancement Allomancy, would there be some other consequence such as the Kandra not having their Blessing's effects available temporarily, kind of like how a Feruchemist can temporarily go without part of an attribute to draw more Investiture from it?

Would a Leecher be able to stop a Kandra's Blessings from functioning while touching them, similar to how a Shardblade can't be summoned while a Leecher is interfering?

What are everybody's thoughts on the matter?

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

What are everybody's thoughts on the matter?

• I think Blessings work on the same principal as all other Hemalurgy - "Spiritweb now has <Attribute>"
• So, if a Leecher/Nicroburst could not remove the ability to burn Steel from an H-Coinshot (as opposed to removing just the current available steel)
• Then a Leecher/Nicroburst can not remove or affect whatever attribute is granted by a Blessing.

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

@Cocoa recently made a post questioning about what would happen if an Aviar or its Bonded person were to have a Leecher or Nicroburst try to affect them with their power, and it got me thinking along a similar line of reasoning; what if a Kandra were to use A-duralumin or have a Nicroburst charge them up?

Nothing would happen. Nicrosil or duralumin affects kinetic investiture, Kandra's Blessings, like all spikes, are innate investiture - they change the soul, which in consequence changes their attributes. But this change in attributes isn't from kinetic investiture, there is nothing to boost here.

Spoiler

Questioner

Nicrosil and chromium, do those have any interaction with people using Feruchemy, or other Investiture in general? Leechers or Nicrobursts.

Brandon Sanderson

Could you use those on Feruchemists? You should be able to, yes.

Questioner

Would that only work while they're tapping it?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's active Investiture, probably yes. You'd probably need it to be kinetic Investiture in order for them to do anything about it.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Would a Leecher be able to stop a Kandra's Blessings from functioning while touching them, similar to how a Shardblade can't be summoned while a Leecher is interfering?

No. It's not kinetic. Summoning a Shardblade is making the investiture kinetic for a short moment, when it changes states.

Speculatively, chromium at the highest end might be able to kind of seal powers permanently, to excise a part of someone else's soul. While this isn't confirmed by Brandon, this idea is going "in the right direction". Only then you would be able to affect spikes or innate investiture in general.

Spoiler

Wyndlerunner

You've mentioned in the past aluminum savants being able to somewhat heal their spiritweb, healing them of the cracks, sort of healing them of Allomancy. Could a chromium savant do this to other people, kind of like in the Avatar [The Last Airbender] finale where he seals bending?

Brandon Sanderson

I will say RAFO, but I will say you're theorizing along correct directions.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Edited December 13, 2023 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nothing would happen. Nicrosil or duralumin affects kinetic investiture, Kandra's Blessings, like all spikes, are innate investiture - they change the soul, which in consequence changes their attributes. But this change in attributes isn't from kinetic investiture, there is nothing to boost here.

  Hide contents

Questioner

Nicrosil and chromium, do those have any interaction with people using Feruchemy, or other Investiture in general? Leechers or Nicrobursts.

Brandon Sanderson

Could you use those on Feruchemists? You should be able to, yes.

Questioner

Would that only work while they're tapping it?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's active Investiture, probably yes. You'd probably need it to be kinetic Investiture in order for them to do anything about it.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

No. It's not kinetic. Summoning a Shardblade is making the investiture kinetic for a short moment, when it changes states.

Speculatively, chromium at the highest end might be able to kind of seal powers permanently, to excise a part of someone else's soul. While this isn't confirmed by Brandon, this idea is going "in the right direction". Only then you would be able to affect spikes or innate investiture in general.

  Hide contents

Wyndlerunner

You've mentioned in the past aluminum savants being able to somewhat heal their spiritweb, healing them of the cracks, sort of healing them of Allomancy. Could a chromium savant do this to other people, kind of like in the Avatar [The Last Airbender] finale where he seals bending?

Brandon Sanderson

I will say RAFO, but I will say you're theorizing along correct directions.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

I thought a leecher could leech a metalmind?  In the case of hemalurgy couldnt they directly leech the investiture from the spike?   

You would have to touch the spike itself and likely have the intent to leech the spike and not the person.  

 

What about a Larkin?  If a Larkin hung out next to the godking would they gorge themselves on his investiture?  Would they gladly feed off of a pile of metalminds or hemalurgic spikes?  

I think the world becomes safer for some of my favorite systems if leeching can only effect kinetic investiture but I thought the more innate and static stuff could be targeted specifically. 

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I thought a leecher could leech a metalmind?  In the case of hemalurgy couldnt they directly leech the investiture from the spike?   

You would have to touch the spike itself and likely have the intent to leech the spike and not the person.  

 

What about a Larkin?  If a Larkin hung out next to the godking would they gorge themselves on his investiture?  Would they gladly feed off of a pile of metalminds or hemalurgic spikes?  

I think the world becomes safer for some of my favorite systems if leeching can only effect kinetic investiture but I thought the more innate and static stuff could be targeted specifically. 

Larkin as an example will drain Light from a fabrial but not the trapped Spren, and the only explanation Ive seen proposed is that they are protected by having their own Identity.  I suspect Metalminds and Spikes both have a similar Identity-based protection.  Which is probably something that can be pushed through as is the case with most allomancy, or otherwise bypassed with complex tricks.   

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I thought a leecher could leech a metalmind?  In the case of hemalurgy couldnt they directly leech the investiture from the spike?   

You would have to touch the spike itself and likely have the intent to leech the spike and not the person.  

It's complicated. First, look at the WoB provided earlier. Chromium leeches kinetic investiture. No metalminds. Spikes have no kinetic investiture, only innate. Not leechable. In the same way, burning aluminum will not destroy the charge of a spike you have. 

Spoiler

Questioner

If someone had a Hemalurgic spike and they burned aluminum, would the negation of-- am I going to get RAFO'd?

Brandon Sanderson

You're asking if it would destroy the Hemalurgic power? Burning aluminum at that point would not destroy the Hemalurgic power. It would pull the Investiture through whatever you're doing. It would blank your power, but it wouldn't destroy you being an Allomancer with the spike...

I actually considered this in building it and that would be too easy a way to remove Inquisitors, particularly if there were dissension between them.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

However for Leechers the distinction between static and kinetic gets a bit blurry - they can leech your metal storages (which aren't either kinetic or static, they're just pieces of uninvested metals), but have troubles Leeching metalminds - the newer WoB talks about the need of it being kinetic investiture, while the older one allowed to just leech metalminds. What I got from this is that A-chromium struggles with leeching off invested metals, like metalminds, because they're invested and they resist being affected by another investiture - A-chromium. It would take a while longer and a big bag of chromium to actually leech an entire metalmind and that would get rid of both metal and investiture within it. On top of that it would require a specific intent - we didn't see Dumad leeching Wax and Wayne's metalminds in TLM.

Spoiler

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

However spikes contain innate investiture and are a part of your soul - it would be really hard to affect that with A-chromium, and it would require special circumstances (like speculated earlier). Metalminds inside your body would also gain this interference from your soul, thus they would also be harder to leech than metalminds outside of your body. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Questioner 1

Does aluminum actually make the metals disappear, like, be metabolized? Or does it just cut the Spiritual connection?

Brandon Sanderson

So... I haven't actually canonized that... I've gone back and forth. For a while, I said it got rid of them. And there may even be... But the more I thought about that, the more it doesn't make much sense.

Questioner 1

It doesn't. Especially the way that duralumin works, it doesn't really make sense.

Brandon Sanderson

And so, I've been kind of pushing the other way. Since I haven't said it in-world, it's not truly canon, but I believe I've answered other fans saying that it burns them all away in a flash, and we might need it to do that, for future things. So, I'm undecided.

Questioner 2

It needs to get rid of them, but a path to sever the connection at the same time.

Brandon Sanderson

One of the big problems is, if it only severs the connection and leaves the metals, than you have heavy metal poisoning from some of the metals.

Questioner 1

But if it makes them burn away, that doesn't work the same way as duralumin. Duralumin only burns the ones you're burning.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I kinda have to err back on the side of "it gets rid of them," just we don't have to deal with metal poisoning, but I've kind of been wavering a little bit, thinking, "Is there a better way to explain this."

LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020)

In conclusion, your average Leecher would not be able to affect either spikes or unused metalminds - they would have to be waiting for a Feruchemist to tap/store in metalminds before they would be able to leech from them. However, a more skilled and Cosmere-aware Leecher might be able to burn off the content or the entire metalminds away, provided they have enough chromium and enough time to do that. This move however isn't very effective during combat as they can only do that against an immobilized opponent, who can't just step away from Leecher's grab. The most powerful application of A-chromium speculatively can affect the soul itself, thus innate investiture and spikes. 

Why does A-chromium struggle so much with draining non-kinetic investiture? Because Allomancy provides only a little amount of investiture, thus other statically invested objects, or pieces of soul, provide such investiture resistance which is hard for A-chromium to overcome.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Or maybe those somewhat contradictory WoBs are the result of Brandon changing his mind on how A-chromium works? We'll see in Era 3.

 

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What about a Larkin?  If a Larkin hung out next to the godking would they gorge themselves on his investiture?  Would they gladly feed off of a pile of metalminds or hemalurgic spikes?  

Larkin can leech not just kinetic investiture, but also static. Thus they can leech Stormlight out of gemstones (as seen in OB). They can also feast on Divine Breaths, so Larkins can leech all 3 kinds of investiture - kinetic, static and innate:

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler

So, Vasher has been on Roshar to live off the Stormlight. Does he know about larkins?

Brandon Sanderson

He has heard of larkins.

Mason Wheeler

How afraid of them is he?

Brandon Sanderson

He is happy that are all supposedly extinct. They would kill him.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think the world becomes safer for some of my favorite systems if leeching can only effect kinetic investiture but I thought the more innate and static stuff could be targeted specifically. 

It's not that colorful:

Spoiler

Questioner

If an Allomancer found themselves on Nalthis or Roshar, would they be able to use chromium on someone using Stormlight or Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

I am staying away from answering too many questions like that until I start having it happen. But do know that the magics interact... some ways they interact very naturally, some ways, they don’t. One way I’ve released is, you could use bronze on most forms of Investiture to find it. So you can extrapolate that some of these things would work. But not necessarily all. All of them could be made to work.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Podman36

How effective would a Leecher be at draining Breath?

Brandon Sanderson

They could be fairly effective.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Podman36

If [Leeching] would work with Breath, would it work with Lifeless? Could you Leech a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

This is theoretically possible.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

 

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Larkin as an example will drain Light from a fabrial but not the trapped Spren, and the only explanation Ive seen proposed is that they are protected by having their own Identity.  I suspect Metalminds and Spikes both have a similar Identity-based protection.  Which is probably something that can be pushed through as is the case with most allomancy, or otherwise bypassed with complex tricks.   

Yes and no. Identity plays a huge role in it, but Spren are just ridiculously invested. Investiture resists investiture, sentient invested Splinter with their own identity is even harder to affect than just an empty gemstone with light in it. Larkin can't overcome that resistance.

Spoiler

sebarial

Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list.

bubblebooy

Does the difficulty of affecting metals in a body with Allomancy have to do with Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

No, more to do with the fact that most people are innately Invested in the Cosmere--and certain planets have extra Investiture. Something Invested is more difficult to transform/move/etc with another form of Investiture.

[...]

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by alder24

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I thought a leecher could leech a metalmind?

Leechers can only leech a metalmind the same way that Ruin changed the prophesies - Metalmind Investiture is Kinetic while being stored and tapped. So, they couldn;t empty a full metalmind itself, but they could take that trait while you are trying to Tap the metalmind. . . 

Old WoB frmo before "Kinetic investiture" was a known thing - but the theory should hold. 

Spoiler

Questioner

In the Well of Ascension, Kwaan says that Ruin changed the words in the Feruchemists' metalminds. Ruin can't *inaudible* metal plates. I was wondering what the difference was?

Brandon Sanderson

Because they're in the person's head before they're going in the plates. And he can affect the power as it's transcribed between. Because the power is partially him, the Power of Creation of that world. So there is a bit of him inside of every person, and as the power is going from person into plate... It's kind of like how people can hack your phone through your wifi. Does that make sense? So, that's what's going on there.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)