Cosmere books - Thoughts and worries about the future. (spoilers)

[Schizm]

In advance I'd like to apologise for very long post and for mistakes. English is not my 1st langauge. 
Also couple of things to clarify at the begining: 

- I'm a huge fan of Cosmere universe and books and read most of them. 
- I'll be using some comparision to Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson and Discworld series by Terry Pratchett.

After finishing Lost Metal last week I have quite a lot of worries when it comes to future of Cosmere books and how to approach them. Not to mention that LM is 2nd book after Rythm of War that makes it difficult for me to recommend the series to new readers. 

That's also quite the irony because on the surface Cosmere books are easy recommendation - Not only writing is, as usual, fantastic (that being said - exposition dumps in LM were... overwhelming at some points) but also, I honestly don't know if I love or dislike the "new" approach that B. Sanderson have to his books. 
On personal level I find it hilarious how I can't decide between the two. 

So why the negative? And why am I worried?

I started my adventure with B. Sanderson books with the Way of Kings. Then I picked up it's sequels, Mistborn and finally shorter novels and older books as well. 
After reading tWoK I also read some insights into Cosmere and I found it really interesing how B.S decided to create separate stories while at the same time keeping some level of connectivity via shared universe. 
It reminded me of Terry Pratchett's approach. 
An author who made a canvas for himself by designing entire world to keep a level of cohesiveness and some loose connections but at the same time made sure that stories within the books don't require in-depth knowlage about entire universe.

It made it so each book (or series) could be as good as possible - escaping the issue with share universes where the best is kept for the last - but it also gave long time readers some easter eggs and connections. Best of both worlds.

But then Mistborn era 2 and Rythm of War happened... And Cosmere-level of knowlage started to feel like necessity rather than addition.

Especially Lost Metal and Rythm of War.

I know that some folks disagree and I saw argument that you can still make sense about what's going on without knowlage from other series. Or how Marasi in LM serves as readers avatar and we learn things throught her eyes as we go. 
Well partially I can see that argument being valid. But it's mostly becasue B. Sanderson is skilled writer not because it's good idea IMO.

What I mean by that is that exposition dumps are MASSIVE in LM. We are being fed huge amount of Cosmere lore. We're introduced to brand new planets, new magic concepts, new characters, new powers and so much more. And even tho it's all written well (that's the skill) it's still overwhelming and feels like trying to bite more than the book can chew. And for the 1st time reading B. Sanderson book - I felt that main plot suffered a lot because of it. It lost quite a lot of it's focus that I usually find in his books. 
The worst thing being - The ending. 
Instead of feeling like proper closure - In the same way Mistborn era 1 felt. I was left with loose ends that I know will be continued in some way in Mistborn era 3... and Stormlight (among other cosmere books).

With Stormlight I'm starting to have similar feelings. Thankfully it's still the more focused series, more interested in it's own story but RoW already was a book in which I knew I'd be missing quite a lot if I haven't read other Cosmere books. Like Kelsier/ghostbloods connection. 

Again - Some people argued against that but this time I can't see this being valid argument. Imagining not knowing who Kelsier was in context of Stormlight opened my eyes to the problem I'm writing about in this post. I would be missing HUGE amout of potential consequences that might happen in the future books.

So - What's the real problem I have? 

Well let's start with quality of each book. 
I love B. Sanderson books. I'm always waiting like crazy for new ones, tWoK is one of my favorite books of all time etc. 
That being said LM was, IMO, one of his weakest books overall and weakest book in the "main" series (Mistborn/Stormlight/Elantris) for the resons I mentioned before - Instead of feeling like a proper closure where author "gave it all" it felt like exposition dump with the best "yet to come". 
Like one of those Marvel movies before Avengers. Holding back because all budget will to the grand finale. 

Another problem I have is focus. Stormlight especially was very focused series for the first 2 books. It was dealing with gods, heroes, magic etc. - Sure, but even knowing about Cosmere it always felt like Stormlight is more interested in it's own conflict between protagonists and Odium. Now tho - It also starts to feel like preparation for more cosmic-scale of event with Mistborn and Stormligh coliding in near future. It's especially problematic in LM - There were some points of the book where I could almost see B. Sanderson being more interested in introducing new magic system knowing he'll use it in other book series instead of focusing on the main story. That was... Not good.

Then there's complexity. 
I read Malazan Book of the Fallen multiple times. A series that's famous for it's complexity and depth. It's also perfect example of complexity done right. It requires a LOT of attention but it never feel disjointed or forced. It also counts on readers attention and not on dumping massive amount of info without context expecting reader to just "rememer it all"
I don't have that feeling with recent Cosmere books. LM and RoW feel different than previous B. Sanderson books. Almost like he previously wanted to have more separate stories with some loose connections to Cosmere but at some point he decided "actually, I do want a full on crossovers and cosmic level of events between them all!" 
I don't know if that's true of course. I just get that feeling from his recent books.

And finally - Recommendations.
Couple years ago if anyone would ask me about book recommendation I'd easly say "anything from B. Sanderson!" but now... I'm reluctant to do so. 
Instead of "pick up any series and have time of your life!" it became "pick up any series... and then another series... and then a shorter novela" and I find it difficult to honestly say to folks to read all those books knowing just how massive commitment it is.

To close this of.
The irony - The irony is that like I said at the begining. I don't know if I like it or not. 
On one hand I love the books, writing, characters and lore. I'm exited for each new book and I'm invested in what's gonna happen next. 
On the other - I miss the focus and "giving it all" in each series instead of dumping massive amout of information "for the future".

Anyway - I know this is the new reality of Cosmere books and my post won't change a thing. 
I just don't have anyone to share my thoughts with so I hope it's okay to write post this long in here.
 

I do apologise for it's length. Worst case scenario - Use it as a perfect way to go to sleep;)

Edited December 2, 2023 by Schizm
typos

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I completely agree that the cosmere is quickly becoming a "make sure you read this before this and that before that" type of series.  

I don't know that I think that is the biggest issue I have for it. I personally can't keep up. And the newer books draw me in less and less.  I'm still just trying to enjoy thinking of each world on its own... let alone how the future of it all looks. 

Especially stepping into more and more tech. The fantasy feels are starting to dwindle which is okay for me but a slight bummer at the same time. And I'm not super fond of all of the systems (stormlight healing makes me want to vomit).  

All that said, I still really enjoy the cosmere and am excited to see what happens next but I am living it all via spoilers and being very selective in which books I want to read.  The rest will come from the coppermind and what questions I can have answered here in the forums.  

Still always stoked to offer up Warbreaker and Mistborn to new readers and I give the disclaimer that if they want to read some high fantasy books that will take them hundreds of hours they can look at stormlight. 

I am a big fan of the warbreaker / mistborn book lengths.  They don't seem like quite as much of a commitment and there is a lot less hours of story lines that I felt trapped waiting to get them over with there. 

As for understanding how it all connects?  Coppermind is glorious. Anytime I am reading a new book I take time to pause it and look up the characters as they are introduced... I know a lot of folks think that is crazy but I don't care about spoilers in the story.  I want to world building and magic systems. My friend told me about the 3 metallic arts before I read and if it wasn't for the magic I wouldn't give 2 seconds to the book.  Says a lot that I made it so far into stormlight before throwing my hands up. Too much crap going on not magic related and after 150 hours of listening I still haven't been introduced well to the parts of the system that excite me, let alone how many times I have felt let down by fights that include insta healing from all wounds and then running out of fuel to face half a second of real danger before finding the stormlight via magical portal again.  Mental health issues don't excite me enough to care about the mountains that the characters are facing... but that probably just makes me sound like an awful person.  I guess watching people die from miserable suffocation for a living has jaded me.  

But back to the magics.  Yeah TLM was a cluster of awesome stuff I wanted more of but only got a small glimpse.  And as fast as Brandon writes... it just isn't quick enough bouncing from one series to another... WHERE ART THOU NIGHTBLOOD!!!!

I really really need more awakening in my life but have accepted that we will likely face the apocalypse before we get the next Nalthis installment. 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Schizm said:

After finishing Lost Metal last week I have quite a lot of worries when it comes to future of Cosmere books and how to approach them. Not to mention that LM is 2nd book after Rythm of War that makes it difficult for me to recommend the series to new readers. 

That's also quite the irony because on the surface Cosmere books are easy recommendation - Not only writing is, as usual, fantastic (that being said - exposition dumps in LM were... overwhelming at some points) but also, I honestly don't know if I love or dislike the "new" approach that B. Sanderson have to his books. 
On personal level I find it hilarious how I can't decide between the two. 

True, expositions in TLM were a bit too much, RoW was fine in my opinion, but TLM was the first book that kind of introduced the bigger Cosmere to us and its affairs. TLM is more connected to other works of Brandon than any other book (except for the Secret Projects). It needed this info dump (maybe it could've been done a bit better) because the book still needs to work on its own.

9 hours ago, Schizm said:

Instead of feeling like proper closure - In the same way Mistborn era 1 felt. I was left with loose ends that I know will be continued in some way in Mistborn era 3... and Stormlight (among other cosmere books).

Mistborn Era 2 was not planned. It wasn't supposed to happen. Mistborn was going to be a trilogy of trilogies. AoL was meant to be a stand alone but it quickly grew to Era 2 and became the piece that introduces to us what Era 3 will be about. That's why the story is a bit open ended, but the character arcs are fully concluded, which is more important.

9 hours ago, Schizm said:

With Stormlight I'm starting to have similar feelings. Thankfully it's still the more focused series, more interested in it's own story but RoW already was a book in which I knew I'd be missing quite a lot if I haven't read other Cosmere books. Like Kelsier/ghostbloods connection. 

Again - Some people argued against that but this time I can't see this being valid argument. Imagining not knowing who Kelsier was in context of Stormlight opened my eyes to the problem I'm writing about in this post.

He he, yeah, imagine not knowing... I didn't connect the dots that "the Lord of Scars" was Kelsier on my first read, despite my a bit nerdy knowledge of Cosmere... I don't think I lost anything, it made the realization so much more impactful later when I finally got it. Brandon doesn't just put a certain information once and moves on, he keeps repeating it so you can easily miss something at first, there would be other chances for you to understand it fully and still not lose anything from your reading experience. If something is important to the plot, Brandon will make sure you won't miss it easily - he still doesn't expect his readers to know the entire Cosmere at this stage.

9 hours ago, Schizm said:

Then there's complexity. 
I read Malazan Book of the Fallen multiple times. A series that's famous for it's complexity and depth. It's also perfect example of complexity done right. It requires a LOT of attention but it never feel disjointed or forced. It also counts on readers attention and not on dumping massive amount of info without context expecting reader to just "rememer it all"

I had a bit of a different experience. I love Malazan, but at certain moments it was overwhelming and confusing. I had a feeling that stuff was just happening out of nowhere and I didn't understand it. I still don’t understand the magic as well as I wish to know. I’ve never had such a problem with Cosmere. 

 

Your criticism is valid and understandable. I hope Brandon will get better at crossing different stories in the future, as the info dumps right now are a bit too heavy. I on the other hand love the way Cosmere is progressing and I can't wait for the different stories to start crossing each other - this won't happen in the near future, but far in the future (un)fortunately. I love to see how different magics can interact with each other and what can be done with magic-tech. Cosmere started as a typical fantasy but now it's growing slowly to our modern times and then it will expand into the future - which is a concept that isn't often explored in the books and I love it. I don't expect SA 5-10 to be so much about Cosmere that it will be overwhelming. It's still too early for that, stuff might still happen, there will be an introduction to bigger Cosmere, but the story will be about Roshar and it will be concluded on Roshar. I'm not worried that there will be too much Cosmere there. The full Cosmere scene will open with Mistborn Era 4, not Era 3 even. Era 4 involves space travel and that's when it all will be connected and concluded. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I will say, just speaking from my own personal observations: I have seen more new readers upset because they think they're missing out due to how the fandom overemphasizes connections than because they actually are. I've run across several posts from people complaining about not understanding Restares/Kalak because of lack of exposure to wider Cosmere lore, yet I've never run across anyone complain about not understanding Thaidakar for that reason unless they've already been told they should feel that way. And I regularly saw posts complaining about not understanding TwinSoul because they hadn't read [insert some series they assume he's from here], but very few about Moonlight. Generally Brandon writes the actual cross-series references in a way that goes over new readers' heads and so when they keep hearing "you need X, Y, and Z to understand A" they attribute legitimate questions within the individual series themselves to "crossovers" instead of enjoying the mystery for what it is.

[Secret Project Four general stuff:]

Spoiler

I mean, if you read Sunlit Man after Stormlight you'd probably say it's essential, but some of the most positive reviews I've seen for the book are from people who have never touched that series! Readers are good at rolling with the punches, and when context is truly necessary he usually explains it deftly enough for it to not be obtrusive.

Obviously this is a broad generalization, and I'm sure there are a nonzero amount of people who have genuinely felt the experience was hurt by this, but I think it's significantly fewer than it's made out to be and to an extent a lot of this concern ironically causes that FOMO where it wasn't otherwise present. (Lost Metal does have a lot of flaws, but I think for the most part they have to do with a) Brandon dropping all of Bands's plotlines and b) the ending being Era 3 setup, not the crossover content.)

Edited December 5, 2023 by LewsTherinTelescope
forgor a word

[bmcclure7]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:17 PM, Schizm said:

In advance I'd like to apologise for very long post and for mistakes. English is not my 1st langauge. 
Also couple of things to clarify at the begining: 

- I'm a huge fan of Cosmere universe and books and read most of them. 
- I'll be using some comparision to Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson and Discworld series by Terry Pratchett.

After finishing Lost Metal last week I have quite a lot of worries when it comes to future of Cosmere books and how to approach them. Not to mention that LM is 2nd book after Rythm of War that makes it difficult for me to recommend the series to new readers. 

That's also quite the irony because on the surface Cosmere books are easy recommendation - Not only writing is, as usual, fantastic (that being said - exposition dumps in LM were... overwhelming at some points) but also, I honestly don't know if I love or dislike the "new" approach that B. Sanderson have to his books. 
On personal level I find it hilarious how I can't decide between the two. 

So why the negative? And why am I worried?

I started my adventure with B. Sanderson books with the Way of Kings. Then I picked up it's sequels, Mistborn and finally shorter novels and older books as well. 
After reading tWoK I also read some insights into Cosmere and I found it really interesing how B.S decided to create separate stories while at the same time keeping some level of connectivity via shared universe. 
It reminded me of Terry Pratchett's approach. 
An author who made a canvas for himself by designing entire world to keep a level of cohesiveness and some loose connections but at the same time made sure that stories within the books don't require in-depth knowlage about entire universe.

It made it so each book (or series) could be as good as possible - escaping the issue with share universes where the best is kept for the last - but it also gave long time readers some easter eggs and connections. Best of both worlds.

But then Mistborn era 2 and Rythm of War happened... And Cosmere-level of knowlage started to feel like necessity rather than addition.

Especially Lost Metal and Rythm of War.

I know that some folks disagree and I saw argument that you can still make sense about what's going on without knowlage from other series. Or how Marasi in LM serves as readers avatar and we learn things throught her eyes as we go. 
Well partially I can see that argument being valid. But it's mostly becasue B. Sanderson is skilled writer not because it's good idea IMO.

What I mean by that is that exposition dumps are MASSIVE in LM. We are being fed huge amount of Cosmere lore. We're introduced to brand new planets, new magic concepts, new characters, new powers and so much more. And even tho it's all written well (that's the skill) it's still overwhelming and feels like trying to bite more than the book can chew. And for the 1st time reading B. Sanderson book - I felt that main plot suffered a lot because of it. It lost quite a lot of it's focus that I usually find in his books. 
The worst thing being - The ending. 
Instead of feeling like proper closure - In the same way Mistborn era 1 felt. I was left with loose ends that I know will be continued in some way in Mistborn era 3... and Stormlight (among other cosmere books).

With Stormlight I'm starting to have similar feelings. Thankfully it's still the more focused series, more interested in it's own story but RoW already was a book in which I knew I'd be missing quite a lot if I haven't read other Cosmere books. Like Kelsier/ghostbloods connection. 

Again - Some people argued against that but this time I can't see this being valid argument. Imagining not knowing who Kelsier was in context of Stormlight opened my eyes to the problem I'm writing about in this post. I would be missing HUGE amout of potential consequences that might happen in the future books.

So - What's the real problem I have? 

Well let's start with quality of each book. 
I love B. Sanderson books. I'm always waiting like crazy for new ones, tWoK is one of my favorite books of all time etc. 
That being said LM was, IMO, one of his weakest books overall and weakest book in the "main" series (Mistborn/Stormlight/Elantris) for the resons I mentioned before - Instead of feeling like a proper closure where author "gave it all" it felt like exposition dump with the best "yet to come". 
Like one of those Marvel movies before Avengers. Holding back because all budget will to the grand finale. 

Another problem I have is focus. Stormlight especially was very focused series for the first 2 books. It was dealing with gods, heroes, magic etc. - Sure, but even knowing about Cosmere it always felt like Stormlight is more interested in it's own conflict between protagonists and Odium. Now tho - It also starts to feel like preparation for more cosmic-scale of event with Mistborn and Stormligh coliding in near future. It's especially problematic in LM - There were some points of the book where I could almost see B. Sanderson being more interested in introducing new magic system knowing he'll use it in other book series instead of focusing on the main story. That was... Not good.

Then there's complexity. 
I read Malazan Book of the Fallen multiple times. A series that's famous for it's complexity and depth. It's also perfect example of complexity done right. It requires a LOT of attention but it never feel disjointed or forced. It also counts on readers attention and not on dumping massive amount of info without context expecting reader to just "rememer it all"
I don't have that feeling with recent Cosmere books. LM and RoW feel different than previous B. Sanderson books. Almost like he previously wanted to have more separate stories with some loose connections to Cosmere but at some point he decided "actually, I do want a full on crossovers and cosmic level of events between them all!" 
I don't know if that's true of course. I just get that feeling from his recent books.

And finally - Recommendations.
Couple years ago if anyone would ask me about book recommendation I'd easly say "anything from B. Sanderson!" but now... I'm reluctant to do so. 
Instead of "pick up any series and have time of your life!" it became "pick up any series... and then another series... and then a shorter novela" and I find it difficult to honestly say to folks to read all those books knowing just how massive commitment it is.

To close this of.
The irony - The irony is that like I said at the begining. I don't know if I like it or not. 
On one hand I love the books, writing, characters and lore. I'm exited for each new book and I'm invested in what's gonna happen next. 
On the other - I miss the focus and "giving it all" in each series instead of dumping massive amout of information "for the future".

Anyway - I know this is the new reality of Cosmere books and my post won't change a thing. 
I just don't have anyone to share my thoughts with so I hope it's okay to write post this long in here.
 

I do apologise for it's length. Worst case scenario - Use it as a perfect way to go to sleep;)

 Concerning the ending remember that wax and Wayne We're never meant to be a thing

 It was supposed to be a standalone model between era one and era 2 which is now era 3  This got expanded into an entire series but it was always going to end this way with loose ends because  Ultimately it's a setup for era 3 always was. 

 

[Returned]

I agree with your overall assessment and share some of your concerns. I don't mind the connections between series; I generally love them and have fun trying to figure them out. But where they once felt like a reward for reading attentively, I feel they've been getting both more explicit and less organic. Some of that is probably unavoidable-- as the different series develop there is more and more information to keep track of, and it shouldn't be necessary to formally study the books or to read a wiki just to be able to follow at all. Not necessarily my favorite thing, but maybe the best that can be done. And eventually we definitely will need strong inter-series knowledge because the stories are going to converge in one big meta-plot, and that will necessarily break the silos each series could be in earlier in the publication schedule.

A new reader might be a little bit confused, depending on where they start, but I'm not sure it's much worse in itself than earlier in the Cosmere novels. Continuing with TwinSoul, we know a bit about what he can do and a tiny amount about how and why he can do it, but I don't know that we know less about those things than we knew about Allomancy or Radiant powers early in Mistborn and Stormlight. Some details of those books stuck out specifically because they were hints about the Cosmere that we didn't have the information to decode them. We knew they meant something and couldn't figure out what. We've gotten a bit complacent in knowing more about the Cosmere, so it's jarring to be flung back into being teased with that sort of thing, and more so when the hints are more obviously jammed in.

What I like a lot less is when the connections don't really have a point except for making the connection. TwinSoul is a great example that I've commented on in other threads: he's a cool and interesting character, but we learn very little about him or the part of the Cosmere he comes from, and what we do learn is just stated in expository dialogue. And, the most serious of all, he doesn't really matter to the plot of TLM.

I wonder sometimes how much we (people that pore over details at 17th Shard and elsewhere) drive the issue. Our constant demands for more details, especially about connections between series, probably make subtle hinting a lot less worthwhile. How much extra work should Sanderson put into a subtle clue that can develop over several years and books when he will immediately be asked to explain it definitively so that we can record a new WoB? And to satisfy fans he gives us as much as he can, mainly just avoiding specific spoilers that will be central to future book plots. It's probably very difficult to balance secrets and mysteries revealed subtly and organically in books to a casual reader, or a new fan entering the series at some later point, with giving information to super fans who will coordinate questions at book signings and listen to regular podcasts/watch Youtube videos for hours just to get one extra nugget of new information.

But honestly, I think that the biggest issue is the scope and pace of what Sanderson wants to do. He is a prolific writer, publishing a lot of substantial books and novellas each year. He has a pretty well-defined writing schedule that he sticks to pretty well, but writing to a such a brutal schedule must have some impact craftsmanship, and I don't recall it being quite like that in the past. As the Cosmere overall becomes more complex and more details are canonized by being published it becomes a bigger task to manage it all while also focusing on the current project. Some of that feels, to me, like it's showing in books being a bit more formulaic, a bit rougher around the edges, and some pieces being jammed in because things just need to fit together and there isn't any more time to do it more smoothly.

Finally, I acknowledge that I'm pretty spoiled by Sanderson's attention to his fans and have high standards. I'm used to very high-quality writing and books from him, and even his worst Cosmere book is still better than an average fantasy or sci-fi novel. But for whatever reason my mind won't give up the idea that every book will be on par with The Final Empire and Way of Kings, and I react to new books accordingly even though I don't think that that's a realistic or fair standard.