Largely Baseless Theory: F!Electrum will prove quite useful

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Storing "determination" seems like it's of fairly minimal utility. It's not *nothing*, and certainly I could use it myself to help with adhd, but still I struggle to imagine it ever being particularly relevant to stories. It seems like a very odd choice for brandon to make then.

I propose that "determination" is a misunderstanding of what it does. I think it's more likely "Intent".

Intent is fundamental to how the cosmere works- just sticking to what we see in mistborn, you need the right intent to burn metals, to tap and store metals, and it's very important for hemalurgy. Most of the cosmere fundamentals can be manipulated by feruchemy, so it's weird that Intent can't- unless of course it can. The weirder feruchemy powers that tie in directly with cosmere fundamentals are not well understood at the moment; there is a lot unknown both in world and to us about them, so it wouldn't be at all odd for the metal doing so to be misunderstood. And I think that, without combining it with more advanced knowledge of how investiture works, trying to manipulate Intent would look a lot like "determination".

So what are the implications of being able to tap and store intent? Well, probably a lot. Certainly more than I can think of here. But for a start, there's a lot about Hemalurgy that requires the right mindset- the right intent. Being able to make medallions that share that mindset could be very useful. Same with specific tricks of allomancy and feruchemy. For example, the ability to detect feruchemy with allomantic bronze is rare and difficult, but perhaps you could make a medallion that shares that ability with seekers- or pair it with a medallion that can make you a seeker. Most importantly though, it might allow you to make someone *forcibly* tap or store a metalmind. This would be *huge*, especially with the advent of unsealed metalminds.

[Minor non-plot spoilers for the Sunlit Man]

Spoiler

We even see possible evidence of this in the Scadrian weight device.

If you can use electrum to make metalminds that forcibly make people tap and store attributes, you could probably force people to store the intent of burning metals or tapping/storing other metalminds, and create a device that stops people from using their powers.

So what do you think of the theory? And (sticking only to mistborn stuff and not greater cosmere), what could be other uses for the ability to store and tap intent?

EDIT: Oooh, what if you could combine a few Intent medallions to make someone forcibly tap Intent to tell the truth? Or forcibly store Intent to do harm? A device like one of those would be really cool.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Stormtide_Leviathan

[Koloss17]

Hmmmmmmm. It is certainly an interesting theory! I’m not sure there’s a whole lot of evidence for it, but it would make some degree of sense! I mean, Duralumin stores Connection, and Aluminum stores Identity, so I don’t see why there can’t be a metalmind that stores Intent. However, it would be a bit odd that it would be in a different section than those two. Though, I suppose Intent is a bit more of a cognitive thing.
 

However, F-Electrum is a hybrid metal. Now admittedly, we don’t really know what exactly constitutes a hybrid metal, past being a mix of two realms. So it’s certainly not out of the question!

[Trusk'our]

9 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Storing "determination" seems like it's of fairly minimal utility. It's not *nothing*, and certainly I could use it myself to help with adhd, but still I struggle to imagine it ever being particularly relevant to stories. It seems like a very odd choice for brandon to make then.

I propose that "determination" is a misunderstanding of what it does. I think it's more likely "Intent".

Intent is fundamental to how the cosmere works- just sticking to what we see in mistborn, you need the right intent to burn metals, to tap and store metals, and it's very important for hemalurgy. Most of the cosmere fundamentals can be manipulated by feruchemy, so it's weird that Intent can't- unless of course it can. The weirder feruchemy powers that tie in directly with cosmere fundamentals are not well understood at the moment; there is a lot unknown both in world and to us about them, so it wouldn't be at all odd for the metal doing so to be misunderstood. And I think that, without combining it with more advanced knowledge of how investiture works, trying to manipulate Intent would look a lot like "determination".

So what are the implications of being able to tap and store intent? Well, probably a lot. Certainly more than I can think of here. But for a start, there's a lot about Hemalurgy that requires the right mindset- the right intent. Being able to make medallions that share that mindset could be very useful. Same with specific tricks of allomancy and feruchemy. For example, the ability to detect feruchemy with allomantic bronze is rare and difficult, but perhaps you could make a medallion that shares that ability with seekers- or pair it with a medallion that can make you a seeker. Most importantly though, it might allow you to make someone *forcibly* tap or store a metalmind. This would be *huge*, especially with the advent of unsealed metalminds.

[Minor non-plot spoilers for the Sunlit Man]

  Hide contents

We even see possible evidence of this in the Scadrian weight device.

If you can use electrum to make metalminds that forcibly make people tap and store attributes, you could probably force people to store the intent of burning metals or tapping/storing other metalminds, and create a device that stops people from using their powers.

So what do you think of the theory? And (sticking only to mistborn stuff and not greater cosmere), what could be other uses for the ability to store and tap intent?

That's certainly an interesting idea, but @Ookla the Windwhisperer is right. There just isn't any solid evidence for it as of right now, and we do know already from the Ars Arcanum that storing Determination puts you into a depressed state and that tapping it puts you into an energetic, manic state. That sounds a lot like determination to me.

The affects you propose should be possible though, just through different means.

If you wish to grant Intent to others without them needing to train, the Coppermind coins like the one Wax found should do the trick.

If you want to make someone tap or store Feruchemically, you can force them to do so with the Flaw present in Hemalurgy with enough spikes, perhaps use a spike endowed with a Command to pressure them into a certain action when attached to their Spiritweb, or maybe even use a Chromium spike to alter their Destiny and more subtly alter their choices/preferences.

If you wish to strip others of their ability to use their powers, a Harmonium device using A-chromium could work.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Windwhisperer said:

Now admittedly, we don’t really know what exactly constitutes a hybrid metal, past being a mix of two realms. So it’s certainly not out of the question!

Yeah the placement *could* be weird, but it could not be. "Intent" being a combo of mental and spiritual seems possible to me.

53 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

There just isn't any solid evidence for it as of right now, and we do know already from the Ars Arcanum that storing Determination puts you into a depressed state and that tapping it puts you into an energetic, manic state. That sounds a lot like determination to me.

Absolutely there's not strong evidence for it; that's entirely true. Like I said, it's a largely baseless theory. But I don't think there's strong evidence against it either. Without more specific, well, Intent, I imagine storing Intent could default to storing and tapping "general Intent to do stuff". Which would give the depressed/manic thing. That's what I meant when I said that without more advanced knowledge storing Intent would probably look a lot like storing determination. Determination *is* just a specific kind of intent (little i purposeful. the word not the Fundamental Concept).

 

59 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

If you want to make someone tap or store Feruchemically, you can force them to do so with the Flaw present in Hemalurgy with enough spikes, perhaps use a spike endowed with a Command to pressure them into a certain action when attached to their Spiritweb, or maybe even use a Chromium spike to alter their Destiny and more subtly alter their choices/preferences.

If you wish to strip others of their ability to use their powers, a Harmonium device using A-chromium could work.

That is probably true, but hemalurgy comes with a lot of moral implications. Even if you can get around the "requires killing people" thing, you still have to stab the person and warp their soul to be able to do that. If you just wanted something like "a bracelet that temporarily depowers someone by forcing them to store their powers", an Intent medallion would be farrrrr better for that than a solution using hemalurgy. And yes, you could use chromium, but that's a one time thing rather than a persistent thing. You'd have to make sure they can't reswallow metals afterwards, and it's even harder to stop feruchemy with that, whereas Intent medallions could definitely stop feruchemy. So I definitely think there would be strong benefits to this being true, if it is.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I propose that "determination" is a misunderstanding of what it does. I think it's more likely "Intent".

What is an intent in Cosmere? It isn't something spiritual, it's your will to do something while expecting certain outcomes. If you know you can burn metals - you have intent now when you want to burn them (your body knows that too and can provide that intent, like with Vin or pewter healing). You can spike someone if you know metals can steal stuff - just knowing that and being willing to do that gives you intent. Tapping metalmind requires intent, knowledge that something is a metalmind, which you can access and tap/store (as clearly visible in BoM epilogue, when Wax is examining the coin-Coppermind).

The only way I see it working with Feruchemy is in the same way Coppermind works - all and nothing. You store it all permanently in the metalminds, and tap it all back. It doesn't make sense to "tap intent 10x" or "store intent for an hour". And because many times for intent to work you need to know what's gonna happen - that's exactly what memories and Copperminds do. You already can store intents in Feruchemy - just dump your entire knowledge of Feruchemy into Coppermind and then you're unable to use metalminds as for you those are just some boring pieces of metal. You won't even know there is a charge stored inside.

Spoiler

It was right there. The coin he’d been given by the beggar, shining in the faint starlight. Drewton must have found it in his pocket. Wax reached out, hesitated a moment, and then slipped it from the table before stepping out into the mist.
Could it be? he wondered, holding up the coin. Two different metals. One was silvery. Could that be nicrosil? The other was copper. A Feruchemical metal. Though the pattern printed on the face wasn’t the same, and the coin itself was smaller, this didn’t look all that different from one of the Southerner medallions.
As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap.

 

So no, Electrum doesn't store intent, because we already kind of have that in Feruchemy - Copper. Store all your knowledge about invested art, and you don't have intent anymore, because you don't even know it's possible.

[Duxredux]

So I'm not sure about forced ability activation, but I could see tapping or storing Determination directly impacting the how susceptible someone is to external pressure or imposing pressure. For example, perhaps a Hemalurgist tapping Determination would find it easier to break free from someone who had successfully gained control over them, or resisting Soothing or Rioting in general.

If we're talking it as a stand in for "force of will" then it may be related to:  (Cosmere spoilers including YatNP)

Spoiler

How strong your Commands are when Awakening objects or attempting to break Lifeless or other Commands.

Dalinar forcing the Stormfather against his will to manifest as a valid key to operate an Oathgate.

Nightmare Painters ability to impose a form on Nightmares.

Soulcasters imposing form on objects or people or people resisting transformation.

Now for a lot of these simply having more or less Investiture will determine who wins a contest of wills, but Brandon is great at fringe cases that showcase cool abilities. It would be related to Intent and assist in certain Intent-related scenarios, but not actually Intent.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Duxredux

[Trusk'our]

53 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

If we're talking it as a stand in for "force of will" then it may be related to:  (Cosmere spoilers including YatNP)

You put it in a quote, not a spoiler box 

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

So I'm not sure about forced ability activation, but I could see tapping or storing Determination directly impacting the how susceptible someone is to external pressure or imposing pressure. For example, perhaps a Hemalurgist tapping Determination would find it easier to break free from someone who had successfully gained control over them, or resisting Soothing or Rioting in general.

That's Marsh for you in HoA. He didn't break free but he had enough determination and strong will to remember who he was, his mind snapped free for a second and he acted in the most important moment. I agree, determination can make it easier to resist Hemalurgic control and Marsh showed us that. HoA ch 66 epigraphs:

Quote

Inquisitors had little chance of resisting Ruin. They had more spikes than any of his other Hemalurgic creations, and that put them completely under his domination.

Yes, it would have taken a man of supreme will to resist Ruin even slightly while bearing the spikes of an Inquisitor.

 

[Quantus]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:11 PM, alder24 said:

What is an intent in Cosmere? It isn't something spiritual, it's your will to do something while expecting certain outcomes. If you know you can burn metals - you have intent now when you want to burn them (your body knows that too and can provide that intent, like with Vin or pewter healing). You can spike someone if you know metals can steal stuff - just knowing that and being willing to do that gives you intent. Tapping metalmind requires intent, knowledge that something is a metalmind, which you can access and tap/store (as clearly visible in BoM epilogue, when Wax is examining the coin-Coppermind).

The only way I see it working with Feruchemy is in the same way Coppermind works - all and nothing. You store it all permanently in the metalminds, and tap it all back. It doesn't make sense to "tap intent 10x" or "store intent for an hour". And because many times for intent to work you need to know what's gonna happen - that's exactly what memories and Copperminds do. You already can store intents in Feruchemy - just dump your entire knowledge of Feruchemy into Coppermind and then you're unable to use metalminds as for you those are just some boring pieces of metal. You won't even know there is a charge stored inside.

  Hide contents

It was right there. The coin he’d been given by the beggar, shining in the faint starlight. Drewton must have found it in his pocket. Wax reached out, hesitated a moment, and then slipped it from the table before stepping out into the mist.
Could it be? he wondered, holding up the coin. Two different metals. One was silvery. Could that be nicrosil? The other was copper. A Feruchemical metal. Though the pattern printed on the face wasn’t the same, and the coin itself was smaller, this didn’t look all that different from one of the Southerner medallions.
As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap.

 

So no, Electrum doesn't store intent, because we already kind of have that in Feruchemy - Copper. Store all your knowledge about invested art, and you don't have intent anymore, because you don't even know it's possible.

I dont think this view of Determination works with the evidence: The manic state represents an increase over the baseline, contrasted to the depressive state that is a decrease from that baseline, but the Unit storage model doesnt allow for an increase over the natural state like that.  

I think it's closer to the hypothetical Tappable Aluminum for Identity in that it is still a sort of Investiture based pattern coding like Copper Memories, but more like with Identity where it has a relevant volume/intensity aspect with its magical interactions.  It would most naturally arise in instances of opposed Will/Intent/Determination situations, but I could see it becoming far more relevant in the later mechanization of the metallic arts where it would become helpful to store and reproduce the Intent aspect most magics and/or realmic workings; spren make that part easy for Rosharan fabrials but Scadrian magics is very likely have some counterpart baked in.