Kholin family fight….?

[Stew]

Hey!

I was just wondering if anyone else is thinking about the Kholins and their family dynamics.

one of the great things about them, at least in my opinion, is that none of them really look down on each other despite their differences.

that being said- there’s a lot of tension going around during the final ten days, would it be possible for the kholins to begin arguing, as all families do at some point?

My reasoning (very shaky):

1. Adolin and Shallan are still in shadesmar, realistically for all of the final ten days. 
While Adolin has been stirring up trouble with Dalinar as of late, he’s still a big advocate for everyone getting along, and is quick to defend his family (Karma, Sadeas.)

Shallan was also the peacemaker for YEARS in her house, and while we don’t see much of her role in the Kholin family during RoW, I’d assume she’d fill a similar role too. Not passive, she could never be passive again, but she wouldn’t go out of her way to destabilise the family for any petty reasons.

Now that those two are largely out of the picture- we have Two parental dynamics with a bit of a rocky foundation (Renarin and Dalinar, not negative but Renarin is STILL being underestimated. And Jasnah and Navani, who love each other but Jasnah is honestly pretty dismissive of her mother.).

 

2. Secrets!

So truthwatchers are all about secrets and the truth, right? And while Renarin isn’t a STANDARD truthwatcher, we know he does align with those ideas and ideals, at least to some extent.

I’m not sure if he’s hiding much more RIGHT NOW, but he’s a far more active character than people seem to be giving him credit for, he gets rust done. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has visions he doesn’t tell his family of, as he thinks they would only harm them. I know they addressed the relationship between his visions and the rest of the war effort a little in his RoW chapter, but that can’t be the end of it- surely. 

WoB spoilers, Sorry I don’t know exactly how to put it, I’m new to this. Only slight spoilers

Spoiler

On top of that, I would not be surprised if Dalinar (less so Jasnah, and honestly Navani would probably just raise her eyebrows and then be happy for them. Her and raboniel definitely had that vibe… but I think she’s still just a little bit in denial.) had reservations about him and rlain.

[Stew]

Also sorry if this is jumbled and I’m missing information, I’m currently rereading and also this is my first post! I’m new here, literally started today, but I’ve been reading through this site for months now and I just wanted to participate a bit. Sorry if this is an odd question.

[The Sibling she/her]

Try not to double post.

Welcome to the shard!

If we're talking about which Kholins will be fighting in Stormlight 5, I think that arguments between Shallan, Adolin, and Dalinar are most likely. In RoW we saw tension between Dalinar and Adolin because Dalinar thought his son wasn't living up to his full potential. Dalinar also felt that Shallan was influencing Adolin in a sort of negative way. The vibe I got was almost that Shallan and Dalinar were fighting over control of Adolin. Dalinar still wants Adolin to bond a spren, but Adolin has something new going on with Maya, so he's not going to want to get a spren. Dalinar also sees Adolin as a prefect remnant of Evi, when Adolin wants to be his own person. There's so much tension between these two that hasn't really been dealt with, especially the fact that DALINAR KILLED ADOLIN'S MOTHER. Even Adolin has admitted to himself that he hasn't forgiven Dalinar for this yet. 

Dalinar's a good person, but his interactions with Adolin in RoW make me so angry at him.  Adolin is literally so supportive of everyone around him, he should have a father who supports him and loves him for who he is. Dalinar judges his clothing choices and the way he presents himself, and it really annoys Adolin, rightfully so in my opinion. I think I'll actually be disappointed if this isn't resolved somehow in the next book. I think if they actually argue and then make it up to each other, their relationship will be stronger for it, and will have a more satisfying ending. 

I hope we get more Jasnah and Navani scenes too. Whether they fight or just hug awkwardly, I love their relationship. 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

3 hours ago, Stew said:

Hey!

I was just wondering if anyone else is thinking about the Kholins and their family dynamics.

one of the great things about them, at least in my opinion, is that none of them really look down on each other despite their differences.

that being said- there’s a lot of tension going around during the final ten days, would it be possible for the kholins to begin arguing, as all families do at some point?

My reasoning (very shaky):

1. Adolin and Shallan are still in shadesmar, realistically for all of the final ten days. 
While Adolin has been stirring up trouble with Dalinar as of late, he’s still a big advocate for everyone getting along, and is quick to defend his family (Karma, Sadeas.)

Shallan was also the peacemaker for YEARS in her house, and while we don’t see much of her role in the Kholin family during RoW, I’d assume she’d fill a similar role too. Not passive, she could never be passive again, but she wouldn’t go out of her way to destabilise the family for any petty reasons.

Now that those two are largely out of the picture- we have Two parental dynamics with a bit of a rocky foundation (Renarin and Dalinar, not negative but Renarin is STILL being underestimated. And Jasnah and Navani, who love each other but Jasnah is honestly pretty dismissive of her mother.).

 

2. Secrets!

So truthwatchers are all about secrets and the truth, right? And while Renarin isn’t a STANDARD truthwatcher, we know he does align with those ideas and ideals, at least to some extent.

I’m not sure if he’s hiding much more RIGHT NOW, but he’s a far more active character than people seem to be giving him credit for, he gets rust done. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has visions he doesn’t tell his family of, as he thinks they would only harm them. I know they addressed the relationship between his visions and the rest of the war effort a little in his RoW chapter, but that can’t be the end of it- surely. 

WoB spoilers, Sorry I don’t know exactly how to put it, I’m new to this. Only slight spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

On top of that, I would not be surprised if Dalinar (less so Jasnah, and honestly Navani would probably just raise her eyebrows and then be happy for them. Her and raboniel definitely had that vibe… but I think she’s still just a little bit in denial.) had reservations about him and rlain.

These are some interesting points. May want to it put in the stormlight section. I would not be surprised either if something like this did happen.

[Stew]

 

3 hours ago, OokIa the Believer said:

These are some interesting points. May want to it put in the stormlight section. I would not be surprised either if something like this did happen.

Thanks, I’d put it in the stormlight section but, as I said, I’m new here and I’m not really sure what I’m doing?

sorry.

[Forts Board]

I want to see the Kholin family get into a food fight. Shallan blasts everyone with fake food; Dalinar, (The Blackberry) destroying everyone with his fruit pies... 

Adolin would probably be waving asparagus like a sword...

Yes, I wish to see this very much .

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Stew said:

one of the great things about them, at least in my opinion, is that none of them really look down on each other despite their differences.

Cough cough Gavilar cough cough.

14 hours ago, Stew said:

that being said- there’s a lot of tension going around during the final ten days, would it be possible for the kholins to begin arguing, as all families do at some point?

Yes. Right now Dalinar and Adolin are on very shaky grounds. Adolin loves his father, but there is a tension growing between them because of what Dalinar did to Evi, and what Adolin did to Sadeas. RoW ch 21:

Quote

“Murdering a man in a back alley, then lying about it? Well, the world is better off without him. In fact, there are a lot of people this world could do without. Let’s start removing them quietly. …”
Maybe I murdered Sadeas, Adolin thought. But at least I never killed anyone innocent. At least I didn’t burn my own wife to death.
There it was. The seething knot deep inside him, the one Adolin didn’t dare touch lest it burn him. He knew Dalinar had been a different man then. A man not in his right mind, betrayed, consumed by the power of one of the Unmade. Besides, Dalinar hadn’t killed Adolin’s mother on purpose.
One could know these things without feeling them. And this. Wasn’t. Something. You. Forgave.
Adolin shoved that furious knot down and didn’t let it rule him, ignoring the angerspren at his feet. He said nothing to his father. He didn’t trust the anger, the frustration, and—yes—the shame churning within. If he opened his mouth, one of the three might come out, but he couldn’t say which.
[...]
“And if I think the actions I’ve taken are worthy?” Adolin said. “Then perhaps we need to consider that my training of you in your youth was faulty. That is not surprising. I was not exactly the best of examples.”
It’s about you again, Adolin thought. I can’t have an opinion or make choices—I’m only acting like this because of your influence.
Kelek, Jezerezeh, and Heralds above! Adolin loved his father. Even now, with everything he’d learned about what Dalinar had done. Even with … that event. He loved his father. He loved that Dalinar tried so hard, and he had become someone far better than he’d once been. But Damnation. This last year, Adolin had begun to realize how difficult it could be to live around the man.

 

15 hours ago, Stew said:

Renarin and Dalinar, not negative but Renarin is STILL being underestimated. And Jasnah and Navani, who love each other but Jasnah is honestly pretty dismissive of her mother.

I don't agree on both terms. Renarin and Dalinar's relations are better now than ever, they are better than Adolin's relations with Dalinar right now. RoW ch 54:

Quote

“Let me know if she contacts you,” Dalinar said. “And if any of these episodes come upon you, bring them to me. I know a little of what it is like, son. You aren’t as alone as you probably think.”
He knows you, Glys said, thrilled by the idea. He does and will.
Renarin supposed that maybe he did. How unusual, and how comforting. Renarin—tense at first—leaned against his father, then accepted the offered strength as he watched the future become dust around him.

Jasnah and Navani's relations are difficult but still loving and respectful to each other. They have a different relationship which works for them. I don't think Jasnah is dismissive of her mother. There wasn't much of them together in RoW.

15 hours ago, Stew said:

So truthwatchers are all about secrets and the truth, right? And while Renarin isn’t a STANDARD truthwatcher, we know he does align with those ideas and ideals, at least to some extent.

But Renarin isn't a Truthwatcher, at least not in the classical sense. He is something new, because Glys is corrupted. We don't know what his Oaths are and how much about Truth he is, but there are some changes. 

15 hours ago, Stew said:

I’m not sure if he’s hiding much more RIGHT NOW, but he’s a far more active character than people seem to be giving him credit for, he gets rust done. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has visions he doesn’t tell his family of, as he thinks they would only harm them. I know they addressed the relationship between his visions and the rest of the war effort a little in his RoW chapter, but that can’t be the end of it- surely. 

Yes, he has his own affairs, he might have seen Taravangian's death in one of his visions (or at least that's how he interpreted it) because of the last letter he left to him. But either way, this is still too little for his relations with his father to worsen significantly.

15 hours ago, Stew said:

On top of that, I would not be surprised if Dalinar (less so Jasnah, and honestly Navani would probably just raise her eyebrows and then be happy for them. Her and raboniel definitely had that vibe… but I think she’s still just a little bit in denial.) had reservations about him and rlain.

Nah. Dalinar, who married his own "sister" (Navani - which is a taboo in Vorin society) wouldn't care. He is tolerant. Jasnah would care even less, she is asexual and she doesn't want to discuss sexuality. I think they all would be happy for them.

 

Overall, I don't think there is any indication for incoming conflict between Renarin and Dalinar or Jasnah and Navani. They currently have a very stable relationship, sharing much love and needed support with each other, especially Renarin is finally understood by Dalinar. Even if Renarin doesn’t share every vision of his with his father, Dalinar trusts him.

But the tension is growing between Adolin and Dalinar, and a new WoB points at this as well:

Spoiler

AllomancerSam (paraphrased)

Would Dalinar consider the Shadesmar trip to be a success?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not as successful as he wanted, so a minor success

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Adolin might once again feel that "it's all about Dalinar" and feel that Dalinar doesn't consider what Adolin achieved to be something major - for Adolin it means a possibility of helping Maya (while Dalinar wants Adolin to join an Order and get rid of her). The conflict between them seems to be rising. RoW ch 21:

Quote

“You want me to become one of them, don’t you?” Adolin said. “Part of the purpose of this trip, in your eyes, is for me to become a Radiant!”
“Your brother is worthy,” Dalinar said, “and your father—against his best efforts—has proven worthy. I’m sure you will prove yourself too.”
As if I didn’t have enough burdens.
Complaints died on Adolin’s lips—complaints that there were likely thousands of worthy people in the world and not all of them would be chosen. Complaints that he was fine with his life and didn’t need to live up to some spren’s ideals.
Instead, Adolin simply bowed his head and nodded. Dalinar won the argument. The Blackthorn was unaccustomed to anything else. It wasn’t that Adolin agreed, but more that he didn’t know what to think, and that was the real problem. He couldn’t stand up to his father with maybes

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes. Right now Dalinar and Adolin are on very shaky grounds. Adolin loves his father, but there is a tension growing between them because of what Dalinar did to Evi, and what Adolin did to Sadeas. RoW ch 21:

What would they fight about? Sure, they have issues, but Adolin doing a revenge killing on Dalinar for his mother? I am afraid somebody has to say it: Evi ultimately was a traitor.

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But the tension is growing between Adolin and Dalinar, and a new WoB points at this as well:

  Hide contents

AllomancerSam (paraphrased)

Would Dalinar consider the Shadesmar trip to be a success?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not as successful as he wanted, so a minor success

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Adolin might once again feel that "it's all about Dalinar" and feel that Dalinar doesn't consider what Adolin achieved to be something major - for Adolin it means a possibility of helping Maya (while Dalinar wants Adolin to join an Order and get rid of her). The conflict between them seems to be rising. RoW ch 21:

Why would Adolin see that differently. He is a military officer. He knows the objective of his mission. It has not been reached to a large extent.

15 hours ago, Stew said:

Also sorry if this is jumbled and I’m missing information, I’m currently rereading and also this is my first post! I’m new here, literally started today, but I’ve been reading through this site for months now and I just wanted to participate a bit. Sorry if this is an odd question.

No, it is not an odd question. But a part seems to be missing: What would they fight about? You are talking about highly educated intelligent people, who are unlikely to fight over emotions. They were sitting at the same table with Taravangian and are ready to deal in good faith with Odium. They are not going to start a civil war over disliking each other.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What would they fight about? Sure, they have issues, but Adolin doing a revenge killing on Dalinar for his mother?

What? I didn't suggest they might fight in a literal sword fight to death.  Even @Stew didn't suggest that. It's about having an open conflict, some disagreement, verbal, moral, or other kind of non-physical fight. A split in the family. 

16 hours ago, Stew said:

would it be possible for the kholins to begin arguing, as all families do at some point?

 

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid somebody has to say it: Evi ultimately was a traitor.

Why do you think so? She went to the city to beg them to surrender and was imprisoned by them. I think it's tragic, not treacherous.

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why would Adolin see that differently. He is a military officer. He knows the objective of his mission. It has not been reached to a large extent.

Once again, I reference the "it's all about Dalinar" feeling that Adolin has. Adolin might consider he achieved a different kind of victory than it was planned at first, still very important, a chance to bring Deadeyes at least partially back to life - something that he deserves credits for. His father might be dismissive of this because he doesn't think it's as important as having new Radiants right now.

During RoW Adolin didn't want to disappoint his father, but now Adolin actually feels he accomplished something big and important, but instead of acknowledgement Dalinar will tell him "it's not good enough"? More tension. RoW ch 36:

Quote

“Yes,” she said. “We could turn back.”
And face my father, having failed him again?

[Xiahida]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's about having an open conflict, some disagreement, verbal, moral, or other kind of non-physical fight. A split in the family. 

I saw a theory that somehow Adolin could be Odium's champion. He abuses this rift and convinces Adolin to join his side (with the offer of praise and acceptance perhaps. Something Adolin doesn't get from Dalinar?)

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

What? I didn't suggest they might fight in a literal sword fight to death.  Even @Stew didn't suggest that. It's about having an open conflict, some disagreement, verbal, moral, or other kind of non-physical fight. A split in the family.

The Kholins are aristocrats. For them this idea that they have a private life that is divorced from the political does not exist. And they know that. If Adolin and Dalinar clash, it is a political rift among the Alethi.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

I saw a theory that somehow Adolin could be Odium's champion. He abuses this rift and convinces Adolin to join his side (with the offer of praise and acceptance perhaps. Something Adolin doesn't get from Dalinar?)

I can see that happen but not like that. Adolin still loves his father and wouldn't fight against him. If Odium instead reveal himself to Adolin and convince him that now as Taravangian he holds the power to stop the war entirely, that he achieve his goal of saving Roshar but can't as long as the oath is binding him, while using Adolin's emotions, he might convince him to stand as his champion but not to fight, but to convince Dalinar to either surrender or break his word. Then Dalinar would be forced to make an impossible choice, either he surrenders/breaks the oath or he kills Adolin.

That's not likely to happen, it's very convoluted and ignores that Adolin mistrusts Taravangian, but still it's a possibility.

 

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Kholins are aristocrats. For them this idea that they have a private life that is divorced from the political does not exist. And they know that. If Adolin and Dalinar clash, it is a political rift among the Alethi.

Yes, and that makes their conflict even more interesting and impactful! It doesn't need to lead to civil war, just political division. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, and that makes their conflict even more interesting and impactful! It doesn't need to lead to civil war, just political division. 

That is why we will see it in the second half, if it happens. The Kholins have political issues to clash over. Most obviously Gavilor and Jasnah.

 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Once again, I reference the "it's all about Dalinar" feeling that Adolin has. Adolin might consider he achieved a different kind of victory than it was planned at first, still very important, a chance to bring Deadeyes at least partially back to life - something that he deserves credits for. His father might be dismissive of this because he doesn't think it's as important as having new Radiants right now.

Adolin is a trained staff officer. He will make the same calculation. His troops are in the field dieing.

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Adolin is a trained staff officer. He will make the same calculation. His troops are in the field dieing.

So why did he kill Sadeas if he's such a well trained staff officer, who makes the same calculations as Dalinar? He acted out of emotions once, he didn't regret it, he can do it again. Emotions can overwhelm even the most logical person. Adolin has a lot of repressed emotions inside of him. Adolin might see the result of his mission in a different light, see a positive side where Dalinar can't because they both think in different ways. 2 great officers can disagree on how to lead a battle, Adolin and Dalinar can disagree on how successful the mission was.

[Stew]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What would they fight about? Sure, they have issues, but Adolin doing a revenge killing on Dalinar for his mother? I am afraid somebody has to say it: Evi ultimately was a traitor.

 

Two points here,

1. I agree that to the nation, Evi is probably considered a traitor. That being said, I don’t think anyone in the Kholin family and adjacent, actually thought that.

2. I wasn’t suggesting that Adolin would try to kill Dalinar, and I’m sorry I put it badly, but in this vain I said Adolin would likely not be making it back to urithiru in time?

Timelines are frustrating but I think it took the Shadesmar team more than ten days to get to lasting integrity, so how can we assume they’ll make it back so much faster?

I think Adolin would spend the trip back, while under pressure to move as quickly as possible, thinking about how the mission went and what they actually achieved. Obviously it’s quite a bit, but it’s natural for someone to be nervous that they aren’t meeting expectations. It’s part of the human mentality, especially in such stressful situations.

IF that were the case, it goes essentially two ways (in my eyes).

Either Adolin gets overly stressed about the situation and his inability to help (something brought up multiple  times in the books, especially in regards to being a non-radiant) and he needs to be supported by Shallan, something that happens infrequently as he’s the one always supporting others through their crisis.

Or Adolin gets more and more frustrated that what he does won’t be enough for Dalinar, despite his efforts and the amazing work he’s doing to revive maya. Then if he DOES get back, I’m not sure how they’d move that fast but book logic I guess, he’s already worked up and angry about a conversation that hasn’t even happened yet.

Thats good grounds for a large fight, and regarding this

3 hours ago, Xiahida said:

I saw a theory that somehow Adolin could be Odium's champion. He abuses this rift and convinces Adolin to join his side (with the offer of praise and acceptance perhaps. Something Adolin doesn't get from Dalinar?)

I honestly think it’s perfectly possible for Odium to attempt manipulating Adolin, but I think he’d have to refuse in the end, and solidify his character.

It’s not a traditional character arc, in the sense that he isn’t really learning anything and changing fundamentally from who he was in earlier books, but it’s solidifying who he is and ultimately what his values are. I think if this WERE to happen, it would be best after they fight, and after the battle Dalinar and Adolin can have some effective communication.

again, sorry if I’m forgetting something, I’m currently rereading oathbringer and maybe there were details in RoW that I missed.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

So why did he kill Sadeas if he's such a well trained staff officer, who makes the same calculations as Dalinar? He acted out of emotions once, he didn't regret it, he can do it again. Emotions can overwhelm even the most logical person. Adolin has a lot of repressed emotions inside of him. Adolin might see the result of his mission in a different light, see a positive side where Dalinar can't because they both think in different ways. 2 great officers can disagree on how to lead a battle, Adolin and Dalinar can disagree on how successful the mission was.

Killing Sadeas was a good idea. Not a honorable idea, but that what a rational observer would have considered desirable in Adolin's place.

Yes, we might see a screaming match behind closed doors. But fundamentally, Adolin was to get more honorspren. Are they coming?

11 hours ago, Stew said:

I think Adolin would spend the trip back, while under pressure to move as quickly as possible, thinking about how the mission went and what they actually achieved. Obviously it’s quite a bit, but it’s natural for someone to be nervous that they aren’t meeting expectations. It’s part of the human mentality, especially in such stressful situations.

IF that were the case, it goes essentially two ways (in my eyes).

Either Adolin gets overly stressed about the situation and his inability to help (something brought up multiple  times in the books, especially in regards to being a non-radiant) and he needs to be supported by Shallan, something that happens infrequently as he’s the one always supporting others through their crisis.

Or Adolin gets more and more frustrated that what he does won’t be enough for Dalinar, despite his efforts and the amazing work he’s doing to revive maya. Then if he DOES get back, I’m not sure how they’d move that fast but book logic I guess, he’s already worked up and angry about a conversation that hasn’t even happened yet.

Frankly, I do not get the assumption that Adolin would try to get home quickly or why Dalinar would propose that. They are finally at a place where answers are to be had. Militarily relevant answers. Do you remember Dalinar's first military principle? Information is priceless.

Nor can I see why Adolin would want to leave Shadesmar. He is useful there.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Killing Sadeas was a good idea. Not a honorable idea, but that what a rational observer would have considered desirable in Adolin's place.

Good idea? Sure, let's divide our nation in half and give them a reason to betray us during the Desolation, because that's what killing Sadeas did. It almost led to total disaster during the battle of Thaylen Field, and later caused Kholins to lose control over the warcamps for an entire year. By your words, Adolin as a well trained staff officer, who does the same calculations as Dalinar, shouldn't have done that. Dalinar wouldn't do that ever.  But he did. Not because he knew it would be fine, but because rage and emotions made him lose control.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, we might see a screaming match behind closed doors. But fundamentally, Adolin was to get more honorspren. Are they coming?

Yes, that's my point! Adolin sees this as a total victory, he hoped to persuade at least 1 Honorspren - and there are willing Honorspren who might join him. How much, we don't know, but as Blended said, Maya's words exposed even bigger problem - Surges are more dangerous. But Dalinar? Yes, he wants more Honorspren, but by this WoB he hoped for much more. For him it's just "minor success". Not to mention Adolin is even more devoted to Maya and won't abandon her to become a Radiant, like Dalinar wants. That's the difference. 

Go back and read Dalinar and Adolin's conversation in RoW  ch 21. It's brilliantly written, it clearly shows the division between them, Adolins overwhelming emotions and how much he struggles not to lose control in front of his father. And now Adolin returns from the mission he considers to be a great success, just to learn that it wasn't good enough for his father? The division between them will only grow. It doesn’t mean they will immediately jump to each other’s throats, it means they might grow further apart.