Mistborn in Era 3 and 4

[The Stormfather]

So, in the lost metal, Wax became mistborn from some lerasium he inhaled in the little explosion in his basement, right?

A bunch of harmonium, which got exploded, is in the ocean.

Is it possible that some lerasium was dropped into the ocean, to be found by someone in a further era,

Or...

Mistborn FISH!!!

(This is a dumb theory. please do not think that I actually think that the concept of fish being allomancers is possible.)

[alder24]

14 hours ago, The stormfather said:

So, in the lost metal, Wax became mistborn from some lerasium he inhaled in the little explosion in his basement, right?

Wax is a really weak Mistborn, because there was very little Lerasium he inhaled. So while he won't be able to do spectacular things like Elend or Vin did, he can pass this on to his children, if he wants to have more than he already has. If not then these genes will vanish with him.

14 hours ago, The stormfather said:

A bunch of harmonium, which got exploded, is in the ocean.

Is it possible that some lerasium was dropped into the ocean, to be found by someone in a further era,

No. Lerasium or/and Atium are the result of "fission" (for lack of a better term) reaction between Trellium and Harmonium, heated to 3000 degrees. What Wayne did was just drop water on Harmonium, which made just a normal chemical Harmonium-water reaction, similar to what cesium does in contact with water. It didn't react with Trellium, therefore no Atium or Lerasium was made. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said ettmetal is chemically reactive, not nuclear.

The longer answer makes it sound like Harmonium isn't a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but a whole new metal. He described it as "super-cesium," and that its volatility was based on electrons, not on protons or neutrons.

"It is not unstable, it is reactive. So it's like a "super-cesium". It reacts so violently..."

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 11/17/2023 at 7:08 AM, alder24 said:

Wax is a really weak Mistborn, because there was very little Lerasium he inhaled. So while he won't be able to do spectacular things like Elend or Vin did, he can pass this on to his children, if he wants to have more than he already has. If not then these genes will vanish with him.

No. Lerasium or/and Atium are the result of "fission" (for lack of a better term) reaction between Trellium and Harmonium, heated to 3000 degrees. What Wayne did was just drop water on Harmonium, which made just a normal chemical Harmonium-water reaction, similar to what cesium does in contact with water. It didn't react with Trellium, therefore no Atium or Lerasium was made. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said ettmetal is chemically reactive, not nuclear.

The longer answer makes it sound like Harmonium isn't a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but a whole new metal. He described it as "super-cesium," and that its volatility was based on electrons, not on protons or neutrons.

"It is not unstable, it is reactive. So it's like a "super-cesium". It reacts so violently..."

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

I doubt this will be possible at all... but for a moment I read that as 3000 degrees is the special temperature more than the Trellium itself.  

I feel like there might be a few ways in the cosmere to reach those temperatures.  Designing a place to do it without destroying everything else around you might be difficult. 

Brass compounding is one. We don't know exactly all of the mechanics behind it and I feel there maybe some back and forth between whether the person would be protected from all of the heat or if they would require ludicrous amounts of healing as well??? Not sure.  Do we know what bendalloy bubbles do to heat?  Does it pass right through them?  Could a brass ferring pop up a time bubble and tap a ton of heat to radiate and cook nearby enemies?  

Even if it did require a bunch of mashed up abilities I think there may be ways to accomplish it.  And in that case would mass manufacturing of Lerasium and Atium be possible? Or at least so long as there is Harmonium to use (seems like there is a ton of Harmonium on Scadrial given all the tech it is being used in... compared to what we saw of Lerasium and Atium in Era 1.)  

Cosmere spoilers including SA, Elantris, and Warbreaker

Spoiler

So these thoughts may also be impossible. 

Division seems a no brainer... if anything can heat it up enough it should surely be a Dustbringer. 

I haven't read Elantris myself but from what I have gathered, Aons can do just about anything you can think of... potentially create the heat needed as well as a shield to protect anyone nearby. 

Warbreaker. If cloth can be commanded to rub together to create heat through friction... could something be commanded to rub two pieces of harmonium together so quickly that they heat up to that level like friction welding?  

Honestly I don't know if any of these are possible but the way I read it made it seem like a temperature that could be reached through ways other than creating a massive explosion. Maybe not. 

[therunner]

37 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like there might be a few ways in the cosmere to reach those temperatures.  Designing a place to do it without destroying everything else around you might be difficult.

I mean, generating that temperature without destroying surroundings it easy?
Wax can do it in his basement, induction heating is not that advanced technology.

The issue is that to separate Harmonium to Lerasium and Atium leads to nuclear fission, and those are exothermic. So you will get explosion if you do it like that.

Probably you try doing something like, creating thin filaments of Harmonium and then insert very tiny (possibly microscopic) sliver of Trellium.

But the issue is that while you make the explosion smaller, you also reduce amount of Atium/Lerasium (if you figure out proper Intent) made, so you would need to massively parallelize. And then you again have large explosion, or you need huge space to do it in.

42 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Brass compounding is one. We don't know exactly all of the mechanics behind it and I feel there maybe some back and forth between whether the person would be protected from all of the heat or if they would require ludicrous amounts of healing as well??? Not sure.  Do we know what bendalloy bubbles do to heat?  Does it pass right through them?  Could a brass ferring pop up a time bubble and tap a ton of heat to radiate and cook nearby enemies? 

Brass compounder might be able to heat up Harmonium, but the explosion would kill them.

43 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Honestly I don't know if any of these are possible but the way I read it made it seem like a temperature that could be reached through ways other than creating a massive explosion. Maybe not. 

Explosion is a necessary (at least from what we know) result of separating Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium. It is not a means to get temperature, it is a result of the process itself, you cannot get rid of it.

[Trusk'our]

40 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I doubt this will be possible at all... but for a moment I read that as 3000 degrees is the special temperature more than the Trellium itself.  

I feel like there might be a few ways in the cosmere to reach those temperatures.  Designing a place to do it without destroying everything else around you might be difficult. 

Brass compounding is one. We don't know exactly all of the mechanics behind it and I feel there maybe some back and forth between whether the person would be protected from all of the heat or if they would require ludicrous amounts of healing as well??? Not sure. 

Well, the Malwish's airships prove they've found a way to get inanimate objects to use Feruchemy through some method, so creating a device that directly taps F-brass would make turning up the temperature for it much easier, especially if you want to try and make it more selective, making a chamber surrounding the Harmonum also use F-brass, but storing it instead.

Tie the two functions together and you could get a box or chamber holding the Harmonium that absorbs more heat from the outside and pumps it directly into the Harmonium, but all the heat that emanates from the Harmonium is simply captured by the chamber too and pumped back in.

Perhaps this method could be used to create perfect temperature control in other environments as well.

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I doubt this will be possible at all... but for a moment I read that as 3000 degrees is the special temperature more than the Trellium itself.  

I feel like there might be a few ways in the cosmere to reach those temperatures.  Designing a place to do it without destroying everything else around you might be difficult. 

Brass compounding is one. We don't know exactly all of the mechanics behind it and I feel there maybe some back and forth between whether the person would be protected from all of the heat or if they would require ludicrous amounts of healing as well??? Not sure.  Do we know what bendalloy bubbles do to heat?  Does it pass right through them?  Could a brass ferring pop up a time bubble and tap a ton of heat to radiate and cook nearby enemies?  

Even if it did require a bunch of mashed up abilities I think there may be ways to accomplish it.  And in that case would mass manufacturing of Lerasium and Atium be possible? Or at least so long as there is Harmonium to use (seems like there is a ton of Harmonium on Scadrial given all the tech it is being used in... compared to what we saw of Lerasium and Atium in Era 1.)  

Cosmere spoilers including SA, Elantris, and Warbreaker

  Reveal hidden contents

So these thoughts may also be impossible. 

Division seems a no brainer... if anything can heat it up enough it should surely be a Dustbringer. 

I haven't read Elantris myself but from what I have gathered, Aons can do just about anything you can think of... potentially create the heat needed as well as a shield to protect anyone nearby. 

Warbreaker. If cloth can be commanded to rub together to create heat through friction... could something be commanded to rub two pieces of harmonium together so quickly that they heat up to that level like friction welding?  

Honestly I don't know if any of these are possible but the way I read it made it seem like a temperature that could be reached through ways other than creating a massive explosion. Maybe not. 

I honestly have no idea what you mean by all of this. Did you forget that Wax had an electric melter that delivers a strong current which heats a metal up to about 3000 degrees. What we don't know if Brandon meant C or F? Probably F, he is an American after all, and that's really close to steel's melting point of 2500-2800 degrees F - there would be no problem to heat up Harmonium with Era 2 industry.

Moreover Set's bomb looked like it didn't have any kind of giant heat source, just 3 barrels full of Harmonium, each with its own power source and, per Sazed words, it was constantly being heated. The barrels were wired, so it might mean that a simple electric current is sufficient to heat up all 3 barrels worth of Harmonium to enable the reaction. Alternatively, wires triggered some chemical reaction of other components inside that would release heat directly into Harmonium. Either way, Set managed to create a portable version of the working bomb, all of which could fit in a single barrel. Heating up Harmonium isn't a problem.

TLM ch 69:

Quote

It was square, perhaps thirty feet across, and had three very large barrel contraptions—covered in wires, maybe five feet tall—near the center, spaced about five feet from one another. There was another device on the far wall, also rigged with wires—these leading to the three barrels. There were no obvious timers, control panels, or anything of the sort. It was, frankly, baffling.
“Careful, mate,” Wayne said as he inspected the contraption. “Be real careful.”
“It’s some kind of dead man’s rig,” Wax said. “These three barrels are the explosive devices, each with its own power source. Disarm one, and it will send a signal to detonate the other two via that contraption on the wall. Wayne, tell me you still have those schematics.”

TLM ch 71:

Quote

“Under the circumstances,” Harmony said, smiling, “I understand. Each of those barrels has a hole in the top, to draw in air once the explosion starts. The harmonium has been removed from its oil bath and is currently being heated. That means if you pour water in, it will detonate the harmonium. That will destroy the mechanism that heats up the bomb, and will prevent the much greater explosion. Once you pour, use your Allomancy to Push the barrel out of the speed bubble.”

 

Brass compounding won't do it. Brass melts at 1700 degrees F and boils at 2000 degrees F (?). Division also not - investiture resist investiture, trying to use any kind of invested art to heat up Harmonium would be very inefficient and hard. 

 

I don't believe the problem with getting Lerasium is with technology, but with having a proper intent. Wax had a very specific intent of not wanting to create god metals for any kind of change in himself, which I believe allowed him to create Lerasium. Moreover I believe that you can only get one god metal from this reaction at a time, you either get Lerasium or Atium. If you want god metals for something, for power, to change yourself etc, you will get Atium, if not then Lerasium. Sazed didn't lie to Kelsier when he told him "Lerasium was all destroyed" - it was, but only in Kandra's experiments, who didn't have a proper intent and got only Atium. Wax on the other hand had it and got only Lerasium. TLM ch 15:

Quote

It took a good half hour to set the whole thing up. All the while, Wax wondered. What if he did split harmonium? He’d have two metals, the bodies of gods, each capable of incredible things from ancient lore, like manipulating time or creating beings with mythological Mistborn abilities. What if he had that power? What would that change about him?
Nothing, he thought to himself. I’ve held that power. And when I had it, I used it to save my friends.

 

 

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Explosion is a necessary (at least from what we know) result of separating Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium. It is not a means to get temperature, it is a result of the process itself, you cannot get rid of it.

I don't believe explosion is necessary, it's the result of massive amounts of energy being released from matter/investiture - this can be controlled, just like in fission you can have a stable reaction without any explosion. The reaction is based on the same principles as fission reaction, I bet you can make a reactor out of it (I really want it ). TLM ch 17:

Quote

“This explosion was not caused by the division of the metals,” VenDell said. “This level of energy release could happen only if some of the Investiture or the matter itself was transformed into energy.”
[...]
VenDell nodded to the destroyed room. “We just witnessed it, I believe. There is an incredible amount of energy trapped inside matter. You managed to release some of it—only a small amount of what you put in that box, but still. If you found a way to release its full potential … Well, Harmony says the destructive power of it frightens him. Deeply.”

 

10 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Well, the Malwish's airships prove they've found a way to get inanimate objects to use Feruchemy through some method, so creating a device that directly taps F-brass would make turning up the temperature for it much easier, especially if you want to try and make it more selective, making a chamber surrounding the Harmonum also use F-brass, but storing it instead.

True, this might be a way to heat up Harmonium without vaporizing brassminds. Good thinking.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I honestly have no idea what you mean by all of this. Did you forget that Wax had an electric melter that delivers a strong current which heats a metal up to about 3000 degrees. What we don't know if Brandon meant C or F? Probably F, he is an American after all, and that's really close to steel's melting point of 2500-2800 degrees F - there would be no problem to heat up Harmonium with Era 2 industry.

Moreover Set's bomb looked like it didn't have any kind of giant heat source, just 3 barrels full of Harmonium, each with its own power source and, per Sazed words, it was constantly being heated. The barrels were wired, so it might mean that a simple electric current is sufficient to heat up all 3 barrels worth of Harmonium to enable the reaction. Alternatively, wires triggered some chemical reaction of other components inside that would release heat directly into Harmonium. Either way, Set managed to create a portable version of the working bomb, all of which could fit in a single barrel. Heating up Harmonium isn't a problem.

TLM ch 69:

TLM ch 71:

 

Brass compounding won't do it. Brass melts at 1700 degrees F and boils at 2000 degrees F (?). Division also not - investiture resist investiture, trying to use any kind of invested art to heat up Harmonium would be very inefficient and hard. 

 

I don't believe the problem with getting Lerasium is with technology, but with having a proper intent. Wax had a very specific intent of not wanting to create god metals for any kind of change in himself, which I believe allowed him to create Lerasium. Moreover I believe that you can only get one god metal from this reaction at a time, you either get Lerasium or Atium. If you want god metals for something, for power, to change yourself etc, you will get Atium, if not then Lerasium. Sazed didn't lie to Kelsier when he told him "Lerasium was all destroyed" - it was, but only in Kandra's experiments, who didn't have a proper intent and got only Atium. Wax on the other hand had it and got only Lerasium. TLM ch 15:

 

 

I don't believe explosion is necessary, it's the result of massive amounts of energy being released from matter/investiture - this can be controlled, just like in fission you can have a stable reaction without any explosion. The reaction is based on the same principles as fission reaction, I bet you can make a reactor out of it (I really want it ). TLM ch 17:

 

True, this might be a way to heat up Harmonium without vaporizing brassminds. Good thinking.

I see.  Yeah probably a dumb question on my part. I listened to the book almost a year ago. I just wing it based on what I remember. I knew there was a big boom that happened when Wax was doing that experiment.  I remember I had the book playing in my ear while I was building a rabbit while it talked about it.  Awesome imagery. (I was building a chicken coop during the whole Marsh interaction with the foreign police force. That was a fun one to picture too.)  I just have way too much going on to actually absorb all the details. 

I appreciate the quotes its good to see it again. 

At risk of asking another nonsensical question. 

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Well, the Malwish's airships prove they've found a way to get inanimate objects to use Feruchemy through some method, so creating a device that directly taps F-brass would make turning up the temperature for it much easier, especially if you want to try and make it more selective, making a chamber surrounding the Harmonum also use F-brass, but storing it instead.

Tie the two functions together and you could get a box or chamber holding the Harmonium that absorbs more heat from the outside and pumps it directly into the Harmonium, but all the heat that emanates from the Harmonium is simply captured by the chamber too and pumped back in.

Perhaps this method could be used to create perfect temperature control in other environments as well.

Is this a metallic arts version of Shaw as seen in X-Men First Class when he absorbs the energy from the grenade explosion?  

If not does anyone have thoughts on something akin to that in the cosmere that may end similarly?  Harmonium goes boom, boom gets absorbed, lerasium or atium is the end product? 

 

[Trusk'our]

25 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is this a metallic arts version of Shaw as seen in X-Men First Class when he absorbs the energy from the grenade explosion?  

It's been a very long time since I have watched that movie, but kind of, yes; you'd be absorbing the heat from any external source and effectively recycle the heat already in the container, allowing you to easily superheat the substance inside, all without melting the compartment or letting any heat escape.

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is this a metallic arts version of Shaw as seen in X-Men First Class when he absorbs the energy from the grenade explosion?  

If not does anyone have thoughts on something akin to that in the cosmere that may end similarly?  Harmonium goes boom, boom gets absorbed, lerasium or atium is the end product? 

I don't think so, F-brass can absorb only thermal energy, but the shockwave would still be generated and destroy everything around, including the contraption that absorbs heat, thus this won't even work for long. You need to find a way to prevent the explosion from happening and this is much, much harder to do. 

What you need to do is to create some kind of Harmonium nuclear reactor. Harmonium is the fuel, but the fuel needs to be kept at 3000 degrees constantly, which is hard to combine with a coolant. Thus I think @Trusk'our idea of using the same thing that Malwish airships do to reduce their weight would be the best option. If you can limit the system to tapping the metalmind to generate 3000 degrees, but make it shift to storing once it exceeds this temperature, then make the system's wiring go through the reactor, through the Harmonium core, just like the water is flowing through the Uranium core of our reactors (because you need to cool it equally through its volume), then you have a basis for a working reactor.

The hardest part would be Trellium management. You can't just shove a bunch of Trellium into the core, that would be too much and it would explosively destroy the reactor. I think that if you just find a way to deliver little bits of Trellium equally through the reactor, very small flakes of it (or maybe even smaller, going into the atomic level of small, bombarding the core with the atoms of Trellium, just like when you starting a nuclear reactor you bombard Uranium with neutrons to start the fission reaction), then it might just work without any explosions. The heat would be absorbed by the cooling and at some point the reactor might even find a balance, where the heat generated from the reactions would keep the Harmonium core at 3000 degrees, while the cooling would work as control rods, either absorbing excess heat, or delivering a bit more to keep the reaction going.

Of course this all falls apart if the wiring of the cooling, or whatever Malwish are using to transmit the weight of their spaceship, has to be made out of brass and be connected to the central Brassmind - brass would just melt. Buuuut this can still work! Liquid metals can still act as metalminds, although it will affect investiture in some way (WoB). If you pressurize the molten brass inside the core to sufficient levels to prevent it from vaporizing at 3000 degrees, the brass would still act as coolant and would work as described above, even better as it's liquid now and would be much better at cooling than a simple wiring or whatever it is. This isn't such a crazy idea, we've been using molten metal reactors for decades now - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_metal_cooled_reactor. 

Once every few years you would need to refuel a reactor, take remaining Harmonium out, then find a way to separate it from the products of the reactions, which is Atium and/or Lerasium. No radioactive waste is produced and Harmonium can be recycled back into another reactor. Brilliant!

Oh, I love this idea even more now! 

[therunner]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't believe explosion is necessary, it's the result of massive amounts of energy being released from matter/investiture - this can be controlled, just like in fission you can have a stable reaction without any explosion. The reaction is based on the same principles as fission reaction, I bet you can make a reactor out of it (I really want it ).

That is what I was describing in the second part of my post.

The issue is that IRL, bombs is chain reaction (one atoms splits, causes on average more than one to split, etc.), which you can control by introducing medium (like heavy water, graphite etc.), this then turns it into controlled reaction. So atom splitting provides three things:

• energy
• neutrons to cause further splits
• lighter atoms

But Harmonium-Trellium does not appear to be chain reaction at all, you literally 'stab/cut' apart Harmonium with Trellium. It does not start from miscroscopic reaction from what we have seen. So at best, you can make smaller filaments, and cut those with Trellium. So in this case, Harmonium splitting produces only two of those things

• energy
• lighter atoms (atium/lerasium)

If you want it controlled, you have to either to do it in small batches as I proposed (possible with what they know, just cumbersome) or find out what exactly about Trellium is causing the reaction, and how to make it microscopic and self-sustaining (probably not possible, not unless splitting Harmonium somehow produces small amounts of Trellium as well).

And if your goal is produce a lot of Lerasium/Atium, then reactor will do it much more slowly, and radiation is also an issue as fuel rods are hilariously radioactive. (hmm, wonder how much radiation was the gang exposed to in the lab).

Edited November 18, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

That is what I was describing in the second part of my post.

I have no idea how I've missed this earlier paragraph of yours... 

Yes, it seems like we have the same idea - delivering very small amounts of Trellium to Harmonium, controlling it somehow on a microscopic level, because Trellium acts like neutrons in this reaction, but isn't generated from this to cause further splits, nor can you absorb it using neutron absorbing control rods.

14 minutes ago, therunner said:

And if your goal is produce a lot of Lerasium/Atium, then reactor will do it much more slowly, and radiation is also an issue as fuel rods are hilariously radioactive. (hmm, wonder how much radiation was the gang exposed to in the lab).

Disagree, this isn't Uranium. Harmonium, Atium and Lerasium aren't radioactive, they alone won't harm. Trellium repels Harmonium via its invested nature, thus I think the reaction is happening not by our particle interactions, but by investiture repelling each other, ripping axi apart. We don't know what kind of energy is produced in this reaction, it doesn't have to be ionizing. But Axi are being split, it's likely that it is, from alpha to even neutrons - thus it would be the most dangerous when the reaction is ongoing. But this can be shielded from, the whole reactor can be surrounded by proper shielding. I also doubt there would be any radioactive byproducts of this reaction, however this is still a possibility, which depends on their atomic numbers and how they split, which we don't know (it would be interesting to ask Brandon if there are any other products of this reaction other than Atium/Lerasium).

I doubt the Wax&co were exposed to any noticeably bigger levels of radiation because of this explosion. First, the reaction was already over, no radiation would be released when they entered the room. Secondly they've used very little amount of both Harmonium and Trellium. Thirdly, any contamination, neutron activation etc would be relatively small. If there are some contaminants, then on a bigger scale of the reactor, this would be manageable in reprocessing and made safe. 

And yes, the Harmonium reactor isn't the fastest way to get Lerasium/Atium, but it's the most stable, safe and sustainable way to do that. At first you would have to wait a few years, but once the reactor is going, you might get hundreds of kg of god metals from one reactor each year (after all, in the vial Wayne used there was enough Lerasium to be visible as a dust on its bottom - it might be comparable to Plutonium). Additionally you can replicate this on a smaller scale in the lab if you really need some of it right now.

[therunner]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Disagree, this isn't Uranium. Harmonium, Atium and Lerasium aren't radioactive, they alone won't harm. Trellium repels Harmonium via its invested nature, thus I think the reaction is happening not by our particle interactions, but by investiture repelling each other, ripping axi apart. We don't know what kind of energy is produced in this reaction, it doesn't have to be ionizing.

Light is produced, so is gamma radiation.
Investiture can create matter, so there is a possibility regular matter is also created during fission. If so, alpha and beta radiation would be also present.

But yes, I admit it is speculative.

Quote

But Axi are being split, it's likely that it is, from alpha to even neutrons - thus it would be the most dangerous when the reaction is ongoing. But this can be shielded from, the whole reactor can be surrounded by proper shielding. I also doubt there would be any radioactive byproducts of this reaction, however this is still a possibility, which depends on their atomic numbers and how they split, which we don't know (it would be interesting to ask Brandon if there are any other products of this reaction other than Atium/Lerasium).

If your goal is just reactor, than yes you could do shielding as in normal reactor (if indeed neutrons and alpha particles are being produced).
However, then getting atium/lerasium out would be rather complicated, since they would be intermixed with heavily radioactive material. Basically, nearly anything inside reactor will become radioactive after a while, because it is being bombarded by neutrons/alpha and being activated that way.

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

I doubt the Wax&co were exposed to any noticeably bigger levels of radiation because of this explosion. First, the reaction was already over, no radiation would be released when they entered the room. Secondly they've used very little amount of both Harmonium and Trellium. Thirdly, any contamination, neutron activation etc would be relatively small. If there are some contaminants, then on a bigger scale of the reactor, this would be manageable in reprocessing and made safe.

Yes, I agree, if they would be exposed it would be rather small dose.
Still, fun to think about it, Wax&Co might be the first people on Scadrial irradiated via artificial means

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

And yes, the Harmonium reactor isn't the fastest way to get Lerasium/Atium, but it's the most stable, safe and sustainable way to do that. At first you would have to wait a few years, but once the reactor is going, you might get hundreds of kg of god metals from one reactor each year (after all, in the vial Wayne used there was enough Lerasium to be visible as a dust on its bottom - it might be comparable to Plutonium). Additionally you can replicate this on a smaller scale in the lab if you really need some of it right now.

I agree with stable and sustainable. Safe, well, that depends in my opinion. If making reaction self-sustaining is not possible, then harmonium-trellium reactor would be hugely complex to make, so a lot of room for error. You get one larger explosion due to some error, and that damage the rest of device possibly causing more explosions to occur. And if radioactive byproduct is being produced, then you are creating a lot of heavily radioactive waste (not just fuel itself, but also material of the reactor).

Finally, I am not sure you will be able to get your hands on hundreds of kg of Harmonium each year, not to mention tens of kg of Trellium. Remember that Harmonium is also a crucial component in all Invested technology used on Scadrial (sole exception being Medallions), so you have competing interests. However, this is difficult to speculate on, as we have no idea how Harmonium is being produced.

But ultimately yeah, reactor would be over time the superior source of Lerasium/Atium, but with (in my opinion) rather large technological overhead required.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Light is produced, so is gamma radiation.

Tbf we've never seen the Harmonium-Trellium reaction, just its after-effects. But just because light is produced doesn't mean gamma is as well. We simply know too little to know for sure right now, but it's an interesting topic.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

However, then getting atium/lerasium out would be rather complicated, since they would be intermixed with heavily radioactive material. Basically, nearly anything inside reactor will become radioactive after a while, because it is being bombarded by neutrons/alpha and being activated that way.

Yes, but that wouldn't be any more problematic from recycling spent nuclear fuel and separating nuclear waste from useful ingredients like Plutonium and stuff. Nobody will enter the reactor core, refueling can be done in the same way as we are doing it - activated elements won't be a problem. And such reactors can run for decades.

What would be problematic is if Atium and Lerasium would become activated. However that would be interesting - radioactive god metals.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Still, fun to think about it, Wax&Co might be the first people on Scadrial irradiated via artificial means

Well, Set was doing it for years before them, so it's likely that Wax&Co weren't the first - unfortunately.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I agree with stable and sustainable. Safe, well, that depends in my opinion. If making reaction self-sustaining is not possible, then harmonium-trellium reactor would be hugely complex to make, so a lot of room for error. You get one larger explosion due to some error, and that damage the rest of device possibly causing more explosions to occur.

If you control the Trellium delivery, then you can monitor it, you can monitor the heat flow as well - the moment either the Trellium is out of control or the heat is rising too much, the cooling system can step in and drain all of the heat from the Harmonium, stopping the reaction in a moment. Of course assuming my/Trusk'our's proposed cooling system would work - that kind of system would provide a huge safety factor.

However if we have to use some non-magical coolants, then it's getting really problematic. You can still close off the Trellium input, but the error margin drops down, if you can do even that (as Trellium has to be inserted into the reactor with the fuel) then this idea has to be scrapped because it's too unsafe. At best you can have one of the safest reactors ever, at worst you can have Chernobyl 2.0. It really depends on the design and what's possible to do with magic-tech.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And if radioactive byproduct is being produced, then you are creating a lot of heavily radioactive waste (not just fuel itself, but also material of the reactor).

Radioactive waste shouldn't be a problem, the majority of spent fuel would still be Harmonium. It really depends on how heavy Harmonium is, you might get light elements with a very short half-life, which would decay fully after just a few days, or something heavier like Plutonium with much longer half-life and much more active. However, it would still be more manageable than waste from our reactors. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Finally, I am not sure you will be able to get your hands on hundreds of kg of Harmonium each year, not to mention tens of kg of Trellium. Remember that Harmonium is also a crucial component in all Invested technology used on Scadrial (sole exception being Medallions), so you have competing interests. However, this is difficult to speculate on, as we have no idea how Harmonium is being produced.

Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems. While Harmonium itself might not be that big of a problem, after all Malwish can make bombs with it, Set too, and probably every Malwish ship has a big cube of it, you can likely gather enough of it to make a reactor, but Trellium is a problem. Unless Autonomy permanently invested in Scadrial and manifested a Trellium in a locked cycle on it, it would likely be really hard to get at all. At best you can make a small reactor out of Trellium and Harmonium they've already have, but that would soon run out. 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

But ultimately yeah, reactor would be over time the superior source of Lerasium/Atium, but with (in my opinion) rather large technological overhead required.

Oh yes, for sure. This whole idea is based on a highly speculative technology, which we don't even know if it's possible at all. But it's a much better alternative than gathering the scraps of Atium/Lerasium out of the ground of a bombing range.

[The Stormfather]

So here's another question : The Set tested the explosion right? Smaller ones in the tunnels?

Don't they have scraps of lerasium now, if they exploded Harmonium via bavadinium?

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, The stormfather said:

So here's another question : The Set tested the explosion right? Smaller ones in the tunnels?

Don't they have scraps of lerasium now, if they exploded Harmonium via bavadinium?

They either did not expect to get god metals from that and never searched the bombing sites, or the explosions were too big and destroyed any leftovers. But it's more likely that you need a specific intent to get Lerasium from that, the intent that Wax had and nobody else did (Kandra couldn't replicate that).

I have a theory  that you can get either Atium or Lerasium, not both of them at the same time, and it's your intent that defines what you get. Wax had that intent to get Lerasium, he didn't want to change anything, he was Preserving himself and just wanted to do some science instead. TLM ch 15:

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It took a good half hour to set the whole thing up. All the while, Wax wondered. What if he did split harmonium? He’d have two metals, the bodies of gods, each capable of incredible things from ancient lore, like manipulating time or creating beings with mythological Mistborn abilities. What if he had that power? What would that change about him?
Nothing, he thought to himself. I’ve held that power. And when I had it, I used it to save my friends.

 

[The Stormfather]

That makes sense, although Bavadin herself might have known this was a possibility and I think could be part of the plot in era 3 or 4, depending on how much the Set is actually part of the story.

I find this to be quite the problem if they do have it, because any mistborn in a place without mistborn : bad.

very bad. We saw what Elena could do to those kolloss.

 

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, The stormfather said:

That makes sense, although Bavadin herself might have known this was a possibility and I think could be part of the plot in era 3 or 4, depending on how much the Set is actually part of the story.

I think we can safely assume that the Set was dismantled at the end of TLM and even Autonomy herself abandoned them after their double fiasco. Most of their members were either arrested or killed and the rest remained with no leadership and resources. 

[therunner]

On 11/19/2023 at 12:14 PM, alder24 said:

Tbf we've never seen the Harmonium-Trellium reaction, just its after-effects. But just because light is produced doesn't mean gamma is as well. We simply know too little to know for sure right now, but it's an interesting topic.

If light is produced so is gamma, you basically get black body radiation (with maximum in X-ray range) and secondary peaks in hard X-ray and gamma ranges.
So yes, you would get gamma, and in fact it would be among the most likely the second most dominant after X-rays.

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Yes, but that wouldn't be any more problematic from recycling spent nuclear fuel and separating nuclear waste from useful ingredients like Plutonium and stuff. Nobody will enter the reactor core, refueling can be done in the same way as we are doing it - activated elements won't be a problem. And such reactors can run for decades.

Recycling spent nuclear fuel actually is not that easy, and you want to take what is created and put it inside humans.
Even small amount of impurities will be quite dangerous.

Though there might be some ways to separete out Invested god metals from the non-Invested matter, that would help diminish the risk.

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What would be problematic is if Atium and Lerasium would become activated. However that would be interesting - radioactive god metals.

If that happens, yeah quite difficult...and veeery interesting

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Well, Set was doing it for years before them, so it's likely that Wax&Co weren't the first - unfortunately.

Ah good point, not sure how I forgot that.

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If you control the Trellium delivery, then you can monitor it, you can monitor the heat flow as well - the moment either the Trellium is out of control or the heat is rising too  much, the cooling system can step in and drain all of the heat from the Harmonium, stopping the reaction in a moment. Of course assuming my/Trusk'our's proposed cooling system would work - that kind of system would provide a huge safety factor.

I am not sure any system could react fast enough. In regular reactors you it rises to criticality and beyond slowly, it is not on the verge of becoming a bomb.
Whereas Trellium-Harmonium reactor would be, it would contain everything to be a huge bomb immediately.

Though it depends on construction, I guess you could make the reactor where you are adding only small amounts of Trellium, however that would make it basically combustion engine, and that has lower efficiency than nuclear power plants.

Your/Trusk'our's proposed cooling would be useful, but feasibility of it working to stop critical explosion would depend on how exactly is the reactor constructed.

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However if we have to use some non-magical coolants, then it's getting really problematic. You can still close off the Trellium input, but the error margin drops down, if you can do even that (as Trellium has to be inserted into the reactor with the fuel) then this idea has to be scrapped because it's too unsafe. At best you can have one of the safest reactors ever, at worst you can have Chernobyl 2.0. It really depends on the design and what's possible to do with magic-tech.

Yeah. I think the worst case scenario is worse then even Chernobyl, more on the level of Nagasaki. Heat, polarised Harmonium and Trellium is all you need to get explosion, and reactor is getting energy from those explosions, but if too many happen at once...

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Radioactive waste shouldn't be a problem, the majority of spent fuel would still be Harmonium. It really depends on how heavy Harmonium is, you might get light elements with a very short half-life, which would decay fully after just a few days, or something heavier like Plutonium with much longer half-life and much more active. However, it would still be more manageable than waste from our reactors. 

I personally think other elements are produced as well, as Investitre=matter=energy, and we know there must be pathways to convert Investiture into matter (as seen in Feruchemy or Soulcasting), so those would be activated.
Risk depends on how much of those would be produced.

And if activated God Metals are a possibility as you mention, then the Harmonium itself might be radioactive.

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Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems. While Harmonium itself might not be that big of a problem, after all Malwish can make bombs with it, Set too, and probably every Malwish ship has a big cube of it, you can likely gather enough of it to make a reactor, but Trellium is a problem. Unless Autonomy permanently invested in Scadrial and manifested a Trellium in a locked cycle on it, it would likely be really hard to get at all. At best you can make a small reactor out of Trellium and Harmonium they've already have, but that would soon run out. 

Indeed, but I suspect that Autonomy is not gone for good, as Trell is to play a role in Era 3.
So good news on that front at least (for us, not so much for Scadrial )

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Oh yes, for sure. This whole idea is based on a highly speculative technology, which we don't even know if it's possible at all. But it's a much better alternative than gathering the scraps of Atium/Lerasium out of the ground of a bombing range.

Indeed it is.