theSurgeOfPhysics Posted November 5, 2023 Posted November 5, 2023 Odium Splintered Honor. However, Honor originally made some Splinters, such as honorspren, Stormfather, etc. way before Odium came on the scene. That being said, we don’t know where all of the Odium-shattered Splinters are currently. I think some are in the Cognitive Realm, which is why we see some unique magic like the Purelake fish being a potential location-based magic. There may be other examples but this is the first that comes to mind. Other Splinters are likely in the Spiritual Realm. Here’s how Dalinar can reform Honor’s Shard. He taps into a ton of investiture, enters the Stormfather’s visions and is able to travel to every point on Roshar. This accounts for collecting any splinters in the physical realm. Then he uses someone like Jasnah or Venli to see into the Cognitive Realm at every point on Roshar and collect those splinters. Finally he throws himself into the Spiritual Realm through a Perpendicularity and finds the remaining splinters there. Since the SR acts as a singularity where all things are one, he can combine all the splinters into one and reform the shard of Honor. “Unite them”… unite the shards of Honor?
alder24 Posted November 5, 2023 Posted November 5, 2023 9 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said: I think some are in the Cognitive Realm I highly doubt this. Raw investiture left in Cognitive Realm is hard to miss, as it becomes basically a plasma-like storm, which would simply kill you. It's very, very dangerous. There is nothing like that on Roshar. Honor's Splintered power can't be in CR - we would know about this. It is like that on Sel, and since then Odium learnt to deal with this in a better way. Spoiler sufficientlyadvanced It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why? Brandon Sanderson It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel. Phantine Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though. Brandon Sanderson Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless... Windrunner If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered? Brandon Sanderson No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous. It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial. General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013) Spoiler Questioner Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) 9 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said: which is why we see some unique magic like the Purelake fish being a potential location-based magic Never heard of that claim. Purelake fishes just have a bond with spren, like Ryshadium have, that's not a location-based magic: Spoiler WeiryWriter Are the "magic fish" of the Purelake the result of symbiotic bonds with spren? Brandon Sanderson Yes they are. Many creatures on Roshar have such interactions with spren. General Signed Books 2013 (Dec. 18, 2013) Spoiler Questioner Are any of the fish in the Purelake Invested? Brandon Sanderson The fish in the Purelake, like the Ryshadium and other things you will see, are not 100% normal. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) 9 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said: He taps into a ton of investiture What do you mean? How can Dalinar "tap" investiture. He isn't a Feruchemist, and Perpendicularity normally isn’t enough. 9 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said: enters the Stormfather’s visions and is able to travel to every point on Roshar. No. Stormfather can't do that. 9 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said: Finally he throws himself into the Spiritual Realm through a Perpendicularity and finds the remaining splinters there SR isn't a place you can travel into. You can see into it, but it isn't a place. It is timeless and speceless. Spoiler Questioner In Shadesmar, the solid and liquid phases are inverted. So, in the Spiritual Realm, is it something to do with solid and gas phases, or is it not the same at all? Brandon Sanderson It is not quite where you're going, but I like the way you're thinking. Questioner So then what's the reason that they can't travel to the Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson The Spiritual Realm is not a place. Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018) Honor's investiture is most likely still in SR in its majority, Splintered into pieces but stuck there. There is enough spren, Stormfather, Stormlight and stuff like that that draw from it, so it can prevent this Splintered power from going wild like it went on Sel. And it isn't in CR because that would just destroy CR outright. The biggest piece of this Splintered power is tied to the Stormfather. Don't expect this whole investiture of Honor to be in the form of spren and stuff like that, this investiture is almost infinite, you can't really divide it into finite pieces. It's in SR, broken and mindless, but still accessible for some to draw from (like the Stormfather, or Bondsmiths). The power has to still be in SR because the Stormlight comes from SR. 3
theSurgeOfPhysics Posted November 6, 2023 Author Posted November 6, 2023 16 hours ago, alder24 said: It's in SR, broken and mindless, but still accessible for some to draw from (like the Stormfather, or Bondsmiths). The power has to still be in SR because the Stormlight comes from SR. Thanks for clearing up these points.
Letryx13 Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 Someone came up with the idea of trying to sort of attract all the splinters in one place, I forget who posted it. Using the Storm Father as a sort of focus point, attracting piece of the shard from all over Roshar. My take on it was that if there could be a large enough concentration of Honor's power in a small enough space, that could draw in other pieces. If the Storm Father could be summoned as a blade, preferably without unleashing catastrophe on Roshar, that could act as a focal point, reforming the shard.
Elite01 Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 I think the theory of using something to attract the splinters seems more likely. We saw in Oathbringer that Gloryspren were attracted to Dalinar while swearing his third ideal. I think in a similar way Dalinar could somehow attract the splinters instead of seeking them out. The actual mechanics are much more foggy but some combination of Intent and connection magic would help. And a complete shot in the dark I wonder if in a similar way Elantris spoiler Spoiler to the Dor wants to find a release in elantris if the splinters would have that same desire to become whole again. We probably won't know until it happens but fun to think about. other random ideas -maybe having all the honorblades in the same location could help pool splinters because it's most likely a large amount of Honor's god metal. An absolute crack theory is that he somehow eats a bit of Honor's god metal and that does it. I don't think it would happen or that's even how Honor's metal would work but that would be a crazy way to do it. -maybe Navani could build some kind of giant fabrial -can't remember the theories about the role Cultivation played in Honor's death but if she wanted to reform him then a shard helping out would make things easier.
alder24 Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 You don't need (and you don't want to) attract every single Splinter of Honor on Roshar, because that includes every single spren and Honorspren in existence, who all predate the Splintering of Honor. This would be a bad idea, disrupting the whole ecosystem (spren form Nahel Bonds with living creatures, making them adaptable to conditions on Roshar), and causing the mass extinction event. I disagree that concentrating enough Honor's power in one place would work like @Letryx13 proposes - it would just form a Perpendicularity and that's it. I also don't think you could draw the Stormfather fully into PR, as that would create massive problems for Roshar, that would be painful and potentially deadly to Stormfater (as OB proves) and this might be impossible because Stormfather already partially exists in PR, just like the Sibling (as literal Highstorm). Theoretically it is possible, but highly improbable to summon the Stormfather as a Shardblade. Spoiler dresdentc24 Can other Bondsmith spren become Blades for their Bondsmith? And how would it affect the Tower if the Sibling became a Blade? Brandon Sanderson I'm gonna say it's outside the realm of plausibility for the Sibling right now. Is it possible for the other two, yes. It's possible but implausible. Highly implausible for the Sibling. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) It is not about attracting all Splinters, as all of them are still Honor (all spren in CR and all Splintered raw power still remaining in SR), it's about Connecting them all together - and that's something a Bondsmith can do. Every piece of Honor exists in SR, it's a matter of reaching there and forming proper Connections to them all, reforging the Shard. No need to attract them, in SR space has no meaning, you just need to be able to reach into SR and Connect to them all. The Stormfather has already proper Connection to the remnants of Honor, it can be used. 33 minutes ago, Elite01 said: -maybe having all the honorblades in the same location could help pool splinters because it's most likely a large amount of Honor's god metal. No. Honorblades are a tiny drop compared to Honor's whole powers.
Letryx13 Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 2 hours ago, alder24 said: You don't need (and you don't want to) attract every single Splinter of Honor on Roshar, because that includes every single spren and Honorspren in existence, who all predate the Splintering of Honor. This would be a bad idea, disrupting the whole ecosystem (spren form Nahel Bonds with living creatures, making them adaptable to conditions on Roshar), and causing the mass extinction event. I disagree that concentrating enough Honor's power in one place would work like @Letryx13 proposes - it would just form a Perpendicularity and that's it. I also don't think you could draw the Stormfather fully into PR, as that would create massive problems for Roshar, that would be painful and potentially deadly to Stormfater (as OB proves) and this might be impossible because Stormfather already partially exists in PR, just like the Sibling (as literal Highstorm). Theoretically it is possible, but highly improbable to summon the Stormfather as a Shardblade. It is not about attracting all Splinters, as all of them are still Honor (all spren in CR and all Splintered raw power still remaining in SR), it's about Connecting them all together - and that's something a Bondsmith can do. Every piece of Honor exists in SR, it's a matter of reaching there and forming proper Connections to them all, reforging the Shard. No need to attract them, in SR space has no meaning, you just need to be able to reach into SR and Connect to them all. The Stormfather has already proper Connection to the remnants of Honor, it can be used. True, you wouldn't want all of the splinters, since that would include spren. But it could (theoretically) work to attract any splinter that wasn't as defined enough to take the form of a spren. I know I'm spitballing here, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. And I admit, I have no idea what summoning the Storm Father as a shard blade could actually do, but I'm not certain it would form the perpendicularity. Ishar was able to summon it with a completely separate part of Honor's power, so it's not tied to the Storm Father specifically. Frankly, I think the Storm Father as a blade could be something so powerful that it turns the tide of the battle of champions, or some other important plot point of book 5. So I think it's worth contemplating. Totally agree that removing the storm father would cause massive problems for Roshar. My current hope, if the Storm Blade theory turns out to be viable, is that the Night Watcher ends up helping by handling the storms while he's needed for the contest of champions or something like that. Kind of like Hercules holding up the sky for Atlas. The Night Watcher herself has only shown up in flashbacks and references so far, and I don't think that's a coincidence. As far as being summoned being dangerous for the Storm Father, I admit that is a problem with my theory, but Dalinar was talking with the Storm Father about growing and stretching in RoW. And the idea of spren being more than they were is something that was discussed by Kaladin and Syl. Taking that into account, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that it could happen. Implausible, as the WoB says, but not impossible. However, you also make the argument that a BondSmith could have the power to just connect the needed splinters to reform the shard, and I admit, that seems like a reasonable theory as well. It would even help explain why Odium has been so frightened of Dalinar up to this point. Although figuring out how to do that, even with Honor's ghost in the Storm Father, will not be easy.
Argenti he/him Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) On 11/5/2023 at 8:21 AM, alder24 said: SR isn't a place you can travel into. You can see into it, but it isn't a place. It is timeless and speceless. Yesn't; Shards "live" there mostly, and people and information can travel through it (Oathgates and Spanreeds). It isn't a place, but you can go into it. Probably. Spoiler Argent Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it... Argent As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague? Brandon Sanderson No... Questioner #1 As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it. Brandon Sanderson No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm. Argent Oh, that's what happens there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit. Argent So, Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony... Questioner #2 Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda? Brandon Sanderson Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception! Questioner #2 The <mists? mistwraith?>? Brandon Sanderson No. Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) Spoiler Questioner Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar? Brandon Sanderson It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work... By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now." Overlord Jebus So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all. Brandon Sanderson It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) Edited November 7, 2023 by Argenti
alder24 Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, Argenti said: Yesn't; Shards "live" there mostly Shards are vastly different from regular humans, they're just a bunch of raw investiture existing in SR with a mind (Vessel) attached to it. That's why they exist everywhere and can see what's happening even on other worlds. Even for Shards "traveling" in SR is so different because distance has no meaning in SR, little Cosmere spoilers WoB: Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson [...] We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have. Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists. [...] General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) Spoiler Questioner In the event that.. so, say if you've got someone who went through a certain event, and it would have Snapped them. Take that person away from Scadrial, and move them to a different world. Would that still Snap them? Brandon Sanderson Remember that the Shards are mostly Spiritual Realm things. Space and time do not matter to them. Time does, space does not. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) 6 minutes ago, Argenti said: Mistborn spoilers: Spoiler Elend gets yanked into it (Partly) Mistborn spoilers in SA forum: Spoiler That's the "see into it" part. Spoiler Wigginns What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage? Brandon Sanderson A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment. Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point. Alsadius Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake. /r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015) 20 minutes ago, Argenti said: It isn't a place, but you can go into it. Probably. You can't travel physically into SR, that's what I meant. You can look into it, but the moment you become invested enough to transcend realms, your physical body vaporizes. SR isn't a place you can go into in a traditional sense. There are ways to peer into it or utilize SR (like Oathgates) but you have no experience of traveling through SR or anything like that when using Oathgates - motion is irrelevant there. Experiencing SR is just different, and it makes more sense to call it "peering into" than "traveling into". You can't "go" but you can "see" or "be" in SR. 1
Argenti he/him Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Shards are vastly different from regular humans, they're just a bunch of raw investiture existing in SR with a mind (Vessel) attached to it. That's why they exist everywhere and can see what's happening even on other worlds. Even for Shards "traveling" in SR is so different because distance has no meaning in SR, little Cosmere spoilers WoB: Reveal hidden contents [...] Brandon Sanderson [...] We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have. Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists. [...] General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) Reveal hidden contents Questioner In the event that.. so, say if you've got someone who went through a certain event, and it would have Snapped them. Take that person away from Scadrial, and move them to a different world. Would that still Snap them? Brandon Sanderson Remember that the Shards are mostly Spiritual Realm things. Space and time do not matter to them. Time does, space does not. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Mistborn spoilers in SA forum: Hide contents That's the "see into it" part. Hide contents Wigginns What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage? Brandon Sanderson A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment. Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point. Alsadius Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake. /r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015) You can't travel physically into SR, that's what I meant. You can look into it, but the moment you become invested enough to transcend realms, your physical body vaporizes. SR isn't a place you can go into in a traditional sense. There are ways to peer into it or utilize SR (like Oathgates) but you have no experience of traveling through SR or anything like that when using Oathgates - motion is irrelevant there. Experiencing SR is just different, and it makes more sense to call it "peering into" than "traveling into". You can't "go" but you can "see" or "be" in SR. Whoops, thought this was cosmere.
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