Kandra Shapeshifting Question

[gamedevftw]

This is a very specific and quite frankly disturbing question but I'm working on a backstory for my Kandra roleplaying character and the question came up.

What would happen if a Kandra "digested" the body of a pregnant woman who had *just* died? The medical guideline is that a postmortem C-section should be performed within 5 minutes in that situation to save the child (obviously if it is old enough to survive outside the womb). Since TenSoon could reportedly shift in minutes, what would happen in that situation? Could a Kandra not do such a thing because there is still life in the body? If they can, would they be able to sustain the pregnancy? (Can Kandra even...be...pregnant??) I feel like taking on a form is always described as "digesting" bones which sounds like a form of destruction and makes me think that it wouldn't be possible. Any insights?

 

[Njvodin]

17 minutes ago, gamedevftw said:

This is a very specific and quite frankly disturbing question but I'm working on a backstory for my Kandra roleplaying character and the question came up.

What would happen if a Kandra "digested" the body of a pregnant woman who had *just* died? The medical guideline is that a postmortem C-section should be performed within 5 minutes in that situation to save the child (obviously if it is old enough to survive outside the womb). Since TenSoon could reportedly shift in minutes, what would happen in that situation? Could a Kandra not do such a thing because there is still life in the body? If they can, would they be able to sustain the pregnancy? (Can Kandra even...be...pregnant??) I feel like taking on a form is always described as "digesting" bones which sounds like a form of destruction and makes me think that it wouldn't be possible. Any insights?

 

Okidoke, I'll have a shot at answering this. Sorry in advance if it becomes a textwall.

First, I'm gonna assume that the average Kandra digesting this mother will not have the skills to keep the baby alive.

Secondly, I'm going to reference the First Contract.

As per the Coppermind, the First Contract includes the 

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Prohibition of the murder of humans, but not kandra

This means that a Kandra cannot kill a living human. 

Thirdly, I'm going to reference process guides for Western Australian hospitals. 

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If the death of a foetus occurs prior to 20 weeks gestation, or, has a weight less than 400 grams this is legally considered to be a miscarriage.

In this, I'm personally going to extrapolate and say that before 20 weeks of gestation, a foetus is not legally considered to be a human.

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If the death of a foetus occurs at 20 weeks or greater, or, weighs more than 400 grams this is classified as stillborn

In this, I'm also going to extrapolate and say that after 20 weeks, a foetus is legally considered a human.

To support this, I took this from the Victorian Royal Women's hospital website (which is from Victoria, not WA, but its close enough):

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A baby’s birth must be registered if:

• the baby shows signs of life at birth
• the baby does not show signs of life at birth but gestation is 20 weeks or more.

A birth cannot be registered if:

• the baby shows no signs of life at birth and is less than 20 weeks gestation.

Registering in this case means legally registered to the Births, Deaths and Marriages Registry.

Now, let's assume that the baby is of 20 weeks or more of gestation.

Legally, and ethically, this baby is considered alive. Assuming the Kandra digesting is morally obliged, and also following the First Contract, the Kandra cannot digest this mother, as it would potentially kill the baby. There may be some Investiture shenanigans that can be done to prevent the baby from dying, at which point the Kandra could have the muscles/functions/bones/hormones/whatever else, needed to sustain a pregnancy. Or, the Kandra could be skilled enough, and separate the baby from the digestion, and somehow assimilate the pregnancy. I dunno how this could be done, but I bet that it is possible with a skilled enough Kandra. 

Assuming the baby is less than 20 weeks gestation, it is legally, though maybe not morally, okay to digest this corpse, as the baby isn't legally alive yet. No special considerations are necessary to keep it alive, and any average Kandra Joe off the streets can do this.

I think I had a lot more to say but I forgot what I wanted to say, so this will hopefully be enough

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Forums.

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(Can Kandra even...be...pregnant??)

Brandon has not yet decided, and is of two minds on this. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a kandra imitating a human have a child with the human?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I kinda go back and forth on this. So-- 'Cause I think about it, then I tweak the magic, and I think "no this isn't possible," and then I go back, and I'm like, "but..." So it kinda comes down to a lot of things, such as, would I want a DNA test to be able to determine if a kandra is real or not. And I haven't canonized that yet, so your answer is, Read And Find Out, once I decide. I go back and forth on that one so much.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

4 hours ago, gamedevftw said:

This is a very specific and quite frankly disturbing question but I'm working on a backstory for my Kandra roleplaying character and the question came up.

What would happen if a Kandra "digested" the body of a pregnant woman who had *just* died? The medical guideline is that a postmortem C-section should be performed within 5 minutes in that situation to save the child (obviously if it is old enough to survive outside the womb). Since TenSoon could reportedly shift in minutes, what would happen in that situation? Could a Kandra not do such a thing because there is still life in the body? If they can, would they be able to sustain the pregnancy? I feel like taking on a form is always described as "digesting" bones which sounds like a form of destruction and makes me think that it wouldn't be possible. Any insights?

When a Kandra digests a corpse, they break down all soft-tissues (Organs, muscles and cartilage) but not the bones, which they then use to recreate the body. Since experienced Kandra are well versed at understanding biology (enough for TenSoon to make or alter his own organs, such as giving a wolfhound a larnyx) I would guess that an experienced Kandra would be able to ID the pregnancy at first taste (if it had not been obvious on sight) because they would detect the hormones in the blood and tissues. If the fetus were viable, then under the First Contract they would be obligated to stop digesting the body. Even if they could exclude the child from the digestion process, it is likely to kill it by digesting the womb and organs in the abdomen, spilling the amniotic fluid. Even if they would reproduce those organs, I doubt they would have enough time to recreate the environment the fetus needs to survive in time to save the child (and a Kandra less experienced than a third generation would probably be too slow at the entire process).

Note: that when it says a Kandra like Tensoon can form a body in minutes - it does not include the digestion process - it only means forming a body of their current mass around a set of bones. Even OreSeur, also an experienced Third, says that digesting and imitating a body takes a few hours (WoA Ch 5):

Spoiler

“Fine,” Vin said. “You’re commanded. How long will it take?”

“A regular body only takes a few hours,” OreSeur said. “This could take longer. Getting that much fur to look right will be challenging.”

“Get started, then,” Vin said

 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, gamedevftw said:

This is a very specific and quite frankly disturbing question but I'm working on a backstory for my Kandra roleplaying character and the question came up.

What would happen if a Kandra "digested" the body of a pregnant woman who had *just* died? The medical guideline is that a postmortem C-section should be performed within 5 minutes in that situation to save the child (obviously if it is old enough to survive outside the womb). Since TenSoon could reportedly shift in minutes, what would happen in that situation? Could a Kandra not do such a thing because there is still life in the body? If they can, would they be able to sustain the pregnancy? (Can Kandra even...be...pregnant??) I feel like taking on a form is always described as "digesting" bones which sounds like a form of destruction and makes me think that it wouldn't be possible. Any insights?

That's an  interesting question. I think Kandra can detect and sustain pregnancy (without getting into RAFO'd if they can become pregnant), so every Kandra has the potential to create a suitable environment for a fetus to develop. But the timing is what matters, most Kandra won't be able to do that, TenSoon might, but others won't. Technically TenSoon could remove the fetus, create a temporary womb for the fetus, digest the mother's body and implant the fetus back into his fully developed womb and placenta. However that's almost stepping over the edge of the First Contract. A Kandra won't be able to digest the body of a living fetus, that would be against the First Contract. 

But that's only something TenSoon can do. Unless your character is some kind of crazy Kandra, that have been digesting bodies of dead, pregnant women for centuries, so long that they can just fully form specific organs without any need for digesting a body, then yes, this is a viable option. 

6 hours ago, Njvodin said:

Thirdly, I'm going to reference process guides for Western Australian hospitals. 

In this, I'm personally going to extrapolate and say that before 20 weeks of gestation, a foetus is not legally considered to be a human.

Law isn't everything, perception matters. If there are no such laws on Scadrial (I doubt there are yet), Kandra's perception would be the deciding factor. If Kandra perceives a fetus 6 week old as a living human, they can't kill him without breaking the First Contract. If there are laws on Scadrial which specify how old a fetus has to be to be considered a human, then those would apply. Overall good analysis.

[Quantus]

Im going to assume for the sake of argument that the First Contract isnt an issue, say the mother is very recently but unrecoverably Dead (maybe she was spiked), and the Kandra is trying to focus efforts on saving the child (and by whatever standard they consider it a child).  

Biologically the Kandra should be able to provide everything needed to be a surrogate womb.  WOB has him waffling (and recently seeming to settle) on Kandra being unable to biologically reproduce themselves, unlike Koloss now, but they should be ablte to take the form of the standard baby biological life support system.  

The question, and this is really more of a matter of skill rather than racial capability, is to accomplish the transition successfully.  Somebody like Tensoon can do it pretty fast, which could work on the face of it.  Otherwise I think they'd need to take a lot of care to first start the process as a Life Support system for the existing Mother/corpse/womb, pumping and oxygenating blood in the body to preserve the placenta function.  If they can stabilize the basic intervention-level Life Support, they'd then be able to digest the rest of the body at their own pace (presumably much slowly and more methodical) to wrap themselves around and eventually replace it all, possibly right up to the Amniotic sac, or possibly remaining more of an unnatural life-support incubator for a whole womb transplant.  It's not like they have to worry about DNA type matching or organ tissue rejection.