Why can Auxilery turn into a chain?

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

It's well established that Aux can only turn into shapes made of one singular piece, but a chain is made of many interconnected pieces and nomad turns aux into one on multiple occasions. How does this work?

[Treamayne]

On 10/22/2023 at 3:18 AM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

It's well established that Aux can only turn into shapes made of one singular piece, but a chain is made of many interconnected pieces and nomad turns aux into one on multiple occasions. How does this work?

I took it to mean that Aux could not become two or more disparate pieces, but a Chain is 1 item (Cognitively speaking) and entirely connected. In other words, there is no "and" - Aux could not become a Bow and Arrow, or a Staff and Knife - but we don't think of a chain as "link and link and link" - it's a Chain - one thing (despite being composed of multiple "pieces").

In fact, most swords would technically be multiple pieces (Blade and crossguard and handle and pommel) or a spear would be "handle and blade."

So, I would guess the limitation is more about Cognitive Identity (an object viewed as "one thing") than physical reality.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:18 AM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

It's well established that Aux can only turn into shapes made of one singular piece, but a chain is made of many interconnected pieces and nomad turns aux into one on multiple occasions. How does this work?

I think it is mentioned that the he can turn into something that has multible diffrent pieces as long as they are touching.

[PrestoTheMagnificent]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:50 AM, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

I think it is mentioned that the he can turn into something that has multible diffrent pieces as long as they are touching.

From what I understood, they had to be grafted together. So maybe a chain where the links are grafted together? That would make it less chain like though.

[drunkenbotanist]

I imagined it either worked the same way shard plate did where it's still flexible and has distinct parts, but is airtight at all "seams". 

Smaller links between the links and smaller links between those links etc etc 

 

Or instead if being a chain like you think where it's {(}{)(}{)}

 

It's more like O-O-O-O where it's a solid piece

[Guest]

I interpreted the chain to operate in such a way that all of the links always touch 1+ other links, but the exact place of the touch is able to move along the surface of the links. This way, the chain can be very flexible but might not have 100% of the possible flexibility of a true chain made from independent links

[Pineap-spider Pineapple/Spider]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:36 AM, Treamayne said:

I took it to mean that Aux could not become two or more disparate pieces, but a Chain is 1 item (Cognitively speaking) and entirely connected. In other words, there is no "and" - Aux could not become a Bow and Arrow, or a Staff and Knife - but we don't think of a chain as "link and link and link" - it's a Chain - one thing (despite being composed of multiple "pieces").

In fact, most swords would technically be multiple pieces (Blade and crossguard and handle and pommel) or a spear would be "handle and blade."

So, I would guess the limitation is more about Cognitive Identity (an object viewed as "one thing") than physical reality.

I believe this is the most correct answer. The chain is considered one object in our minds, and therefore acts as one object. Though it is technically multiple pieces, the chain "thinks" of itself as one thing because that's how humans perceive it. The Emperor's Soul has a really good explanation of this, so if you're looking for a good read... 

[Banazir864]

At one point, Nomad implied that the only thing stopping Aux from becoming a clock is the fact that he (Nomad) didn't know enough about how clocks are built.  Clocks have numerous different parts, so this further supports the theory that the "single object" limit is based on what the user perceives as a single object rather than the physical geometry of the object.

[Colors]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:36 AM, Treamayne said:

I took it to mean that Aux could not become two or more disparate pieces, but a Chain is 1 item (Cognitively speaking) and entirely connected. In other words, there is no "and" - Aux could not become a Bow and Arrow, or a Staff and Knife - but we don't think of a chain as "link and link and link" - it's a Chain - one thing (despite being composed of multiple "pieces").

In fact, most swords would technically be multiple pieces (Blade and crossguard and handle and pommel) or a spear would be "handle and blade."

So, I would guess the limitation is more about Cognitive Identity (an object viewed as "one thing") than physical reality.

This is it, we know that cognitive beings like spren are highly impacted by our perceptions. The chain is perceived as a single item, therefore it works. The bracers for example are not one thing, so Aux needs to have a connective piece between them so they are one item. 

Am I mistaken, or didn't Nomad state that he could turn Aux into a watch if he understood the inner workings? 

Also reminds me of how (Spoiler for Mistborn Era II)

Spoiler

Wax has the realization that bullets are actually composed of different parts, which caused the steel lines to divide into different lines to different parts once he shifted his perception.

 

Edited February 22 by Colors

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Colors said:

Also reminds me of how (Spoiler for Mistborn Era II)

  Hide contents

Wax has the realization that bullets are actually composed of different parts, which caused the steel lines to divide into different lines to different parts once he shifted his perception.

 

Not so much a realization (he'd known how bullets were constructed) as much as a concious choice to split the steellines so he could try changing the focus of his push to hit the primer. BoM Prologue:

Spoiler

A bullet. Three parts metal. The tip.

Metal is your soul.

The casing.

You preserve us …

And the knob at the back. The spot the hammer would hit.

In that moment, to Waxillium’s eyes, they split into three lines, three parts. He took them all in at once. And then, as the bar crushed him, he let go of two bits.

And shoved on that knob at the back.

The bullet exploded. 

But yes, this is likely a similar mechanism. 

7 hours ago, Colors said:

didn't Nomad state that he could turn Aux into a watch if he understood the inner workings? 

Actually it was the opposite, he was able to have Aux manifest as a clock after he had studied schematics. TSM (Ch 5):

Spoiler

 It was an odd construction, as he generally had to make Auxiliary into pieces that were touching—so these weird bracers-under-his-bracers were connected by a rod.

It worked, though, keeping him from being frozen this time.

Clever, the knight compliments his squire with true appreciation. That’s an odd shape, even for you.

He could manage practically anything with Auxiliary, assuming he could make it from the appropriate amount of metal. And assuming he understood the construction on a fundamental level. He’d failed to make a clock, for example, until he’d carefully studied the schematics for one.

 

[Colors]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Not so much a realization (he'd known how bullets were constructed) as much as a concious choice to split the steellines so he could try changing the focus of his push to hit the primer. BoM Prologue:

  Hide contents

A bullet. Three parts metal. The tip.

Metal is your soul.

The casing.

You preserve us …

And the knob at the back. The spot the hammer would hit.

In that moment, to Waxillium’s eyes, they split into three lines, three parts. He took them all in at once. And then, as the bar crushed him, he let go of two bits.

And shoved on that knob at the back.

The bullet exploded. 

But yes, this is likely a similar mechanism. 

Actually it was the opposite, he was able to have Aux manifest as a clock after he had studied schematics. TSM (Ch 5):

  Reveal hidden contents

 It was an odd construction, as he generally had to make Auxiliary into pieces that were touching—so these weird bracers-under-his-bracers were connected by a rod.

It worked, though, keeping him from being frozen this time.

Clever, the knight compliments his squire with true appreciation. That’s an odd shape, even for you.

He could manage practically anything with Auxiliary, assuming he could make it from the appropriate amount of metal. And assuming he understood the construction on a fundamental level. He’d failed to make a clock, for example, until he’d carefully studied the schematics for one.

 

I probably shouldn't have brought this up here, but I thought it was such an interesting parallel about perception.

Spoiler

I think there is a difference between intellectually understanding that many things, bullets included, are composed of numerous smaller parts, and changing your general perception of a bullet being a single object to being composed of multiple smaller objects. 

Yes, he knew how bullets were composed, but my reading of the text is that the implications of that are just dawning on him in real time. It wasn't something that he knew and already looked at bullets that way, otherwise the lines would have already been there. It was something that he knew, but his perception up to that point was still that of a bullet as being a single object. The shift happened as his perception of the bullet changed. 

I don't think there's really much of a difference between what we are saying, I'm just saying his perception did not change until that moment, even if technically he knew the information beforehand. A lot of times in life we know things but choose to perceive the world in a certain way regardless of the facts we know. 

As far as the watch (clock), I think we are agreeing? I said "if he understood the inner workings" and you said once he studied the schematics. Those two things don't seem like opposites to me, they seem like two different ways of saying the same thing  I was paraphrasing based on memory, I don't have a digitl copy of the book to quickly reference. 

 

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, Colors said:

Spoiler

Yes, he knew how bullets were composed, but my reading of the text is that the implications of that are just dawning on him in real time. It wasn't something that he knew and already looked at bullets that way, otherwise the lines would have already been there. It was something that he knew, but his perception up to that point was still that of a bullet as being a single object. The shift happened as his perception of the bullet changed. 

I don't think there's really much of a difference between what we are saying, I'm just saying his perception did not change until that moment, even if technically he knew the information beforehand.

 

My point in quoting the scene was to show that it was not only about the understanding and realization of separate parts. In fact, an item does not have to be separate parts at all - because at least some of this ability is about practice and skill in pushing and pulling (foreshadowed way back in TFE Ch 34):

Spoiler

Ch 34:

Quote

The archers drew. But he could see their atium-shadows.

Kelsier released the bars and Pushed himself to the side just slightly, allowing the bars to fly between the archers and the fleeing prisoners.

The archers fired.

Kelsier grabbed the bars, flaring both steel and iron, Pushing against one tip of each bar and Pulling against the opposite tip. The bars lurched in the air, immediately beginning to spin like furious, lunatic windmills. Most of the flying arrows were sprayed to the side by the spinning rods of iron.

WoB about that scene:

Quote

Podman36

So, in the scene where Kelsier has all the metal around him, and he's Pushing and Pulling on [parts of the metal that are] not center of mass, is that something more along the lines of savantism, or is it just Rule of Cool?

Brandon Sanderson

No no, that I was pushing toward... I wouldn't call Kelsier a savant, but I would say that there were certainly steps toward that, and it's something I actually wanted people who were really skilled with the magic to be able to do.

Podman36

So it's not Rule of Cool.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call that one Rule of Cool, I would say that I want that to actually be part of the magic, that I wanted there to be some level, particularly in Pushing and Pulling, of skill that lets you deviate from the normal. And I've tried to show in other places that people who are really skilled can do some different things like that, particularly with Pushing and Pulling, both on emotions and on metals. So no, not Rule of Cool there, I do occasionally do Rule of Cool stuff, but I wouldn't call that one.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

So, I think it is an epiphany moment - but more about his skill catching up to his knowledge rather than his knowledge changing his skill. . . 

7 minutes ago, Colors said:

Those two things don't seem like opposites to me,

Those were not the "opposites" - you said (implied?) that he had not yet turned Aux into a watch - I was showing that he had already in fact turned Aux into a clock at one point. The frame of reference for how that was accomplished was, indeed, the same. 

[Colors]

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

My point in quoting the scene was to show that it was not only about the understanding and realization of separate parts. In fact, an item does not have to be separate parts at all - because at least some of this ability is about practice and skill in pushing and pulling (foreshadowed way back in TFE Ch 34):

  Reveal hidden contents

Ch 34:

WoB about that scene:

 

So, I think it is an epiphany moment - but more about his skill catching up to his knowledge rather than his knowledge changing his skill. . . 

Those were not the "opposites" - you said (implied?) that he had not yet turned Aux into a watch - I was showing that he had already in fact turned Aux into a clock at one point. The frame of reference for how that was accomplished was, indeed, the same. 

I don't think his skill really changed per se, I think his perception changed, giving him the ability to apply his skill in a way he hadn't thought of applying it before, but either way I think we are thinking along the same lines.

I said he could turn Aux into a watch (clock) if he understood the inner workings. I don't know, maybe I just worded it poorly. I meant he is capable of doing it, he just requires knowledge of the inner workings in order to accomplish it. 

Edited February 22 by Colors