Theory about why Sigzil switched orders

[radren]

Obviously there are more questions than answers in The Sunlit Man. One question that ate at me throughout the book is why Sigzil switched from the Windrunners to Skybreakers. One theory I have is that Hoid asked him to switch so he could spy on Nale and the Skybreakers. Remember that the Skybreakers are on Odium's side.

[Belgarad]

One of the wilder ideas I've heard is the order of Windrunners will cease to exist when all of the Honorspren combine "a la Voltron" with the remnants of the Shard of Honor to bestow the Shard on a new bearer, either Kaladin or Dalinar.

Probably won't happen though.

[anna]

I'm wondering if switching orders happened after Sigzil acquired the Dawnshard. The whole "unable to hurt people" thing seems somewhat incompatible with Windrunner oaths, especially if Sigzil was unable to help in a crisis.

[bmcclure7]

5 minutes ago, anna said:

I'm wondering if switching orders happened after Sigzil acquired the Dawnshard. The whole "unable to hurt people" thing seems somewhat incompatible with Windrunner oaths, especially if Sigzil was unable to help in a crisis.

Also remember that the sleepless wouldn't let a person with a Spren hold a dawn shard.

Sig may have been forced to give up the bond to take up the dawn shard.

[anna]

10 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Also remember that the sleepless wouldn't let a person with a Spren hold a dawn shard.

Sig may have been forced to give up the bond to take up the dawn shard.

That's a possibility too. I guess it depends on if the "no bonds" rule is a Cosmere-wide rule about Dawnshards or something the Sleepless guarding Rsyn's made up. If this is a different Dawnshard than Rysn's, then the Sleepless may not know where it was, or that it was being transferred

[bmcclure7]

17 minutes ago, anna said:

That's a possibility too. I guess it depends on if the "no bonds" rule is a Cosmere-wide rule about Dawnshards or something the Sleepless guarding Rsyn's made up. If this is a different Dawnshard than Rysn's, then the Sleepless may not know where it was, or that it was being transferred

There has to be some reason for that rule and hoid should know why. He might tell sig. 

[operationstack]

I'm pretty sure they said you have to be invested to actual use/access the dawnshard's real powers/commands. Which is why they decided it was safe for Rysn to continue holding it. Which is why they are always keeping tabs on her. To make sure she isnt breaking that promise

[operationstack]

2 hours ago, anna said:

I'm wondering if switching orders happened after Sigzil acquired the Dawnshard. The whole "unable to hurt people" thing seems somewhat incompatible with Windrunner oaths, especially if Sigzil was unable to help in a crisis.

If he is holding the same dawnshard that hoid also held that would explain his inability to hurt people. It is def suggested it's the same dawnshard, not sure if it was said explicitly.

[teknopathetic]

Sigzil says he bonded Aux in a place full of “obsidian”, so maybe Sigzil bonded Aux last minute as he was running through Shadesmaar.

My pet theory is Aux isn’t from the planet Roshar, but was living somewhere else in the Solar System. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by teknopathetic

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

Since Rythm of war we know that Spren can be killed permanently with the use of anti-Investiture.
My theory is that Sigzils original spren might be killed off. And on his way to dealing with that he bonds a highspren.

When he's given a dawnshard in the process I don't know

[GeoMantrix]

Its confusing.  Aux says "we highspren" that's the phrase that threw me for a loop.  I though nomad was sigzil and then I was trying to figure out if it could be szeth.     They also mention a little female that was his conscience (Seth's could have been lift) and he says Master sometimes, wit others, and also hoid.  Seth's master could have meant dalinar.  )  I was working under that theory until he made the bridge 4 sign.  I kind of hated it.  

But rysns dawnshard was change.  Nomads was the complement of that.    

[Blackroot]

In Rhythm of War, we see that Odium's forces now have weapons capable of killing spren (anti-light)... Could Sigzil's Honor spren be killed? In Sunlit Man he gets some of his radiant powers back whenever he is protecting people, could he have bonded a high spren with the ideals of following the windrunner ideals, having lost an Honor spren and being unable to bond a new one?

[Poi]

13 hours ago, GeoMantrix said:

Its confusing.  Aux says "we highspren" that's the phrase that threw me for a loop.  I though nomad was sigzil and then I was trying to figure out if it could be szeth.     They also mention a little female that was his conscience (Seth's could have been lift) and he says Master sometimes, wit others, and also hoid.  Seth's master could have meant dalinar.  )  I was working under that theory until he made the bridge 4 sign.  I kind of hated it.  

But rysns dawnshard was change.  Nomads was the complement of that.    

I to was thrown off by Aux saying he's a highspren and thought that Nomad might be Szeth not Sigzil and it was a bit confusing however, I still really liked the part where Sig made the bridge four sign as it was an awesome moment for his character.

[teknopathetic]

Possibly a lot of Honorspren are killed by one of Navani’s warcrime anti-light weapons, and Sig isn’t able to rebond his order. Surely a lot of spren are about to be killed and it’s going to be harder to find a spren to bond with (especially in orders that do a lot of front line battles) 

Edited October 15, 2023 by teknopathetic

[GeoMantrix]

My new theory is Sigzil and his spren decide its worth it to deal with Moash.  He bonds Aux, shanks Moash, and then when he takes up the "unchange" shard it half kills Aux due to his division component.   

When we read about the death of Sigzils honorspren, sunlit man will become super extra painful (whether or not my speculation about Moash holds).

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, GeoMantrix said:

My new theory is Sigzil and his spren decide its worth it to deal with Moash.  He bonds Aux, shanks Moash, and then when he takes up the "unchange" shard it half kills Aux due to his division component.   

When we read about the death of Sigzils honorspren, sunlit man will become super extra painful (whether or not my speculation about Moash holds).

Aux was killed by a dawn shard and he is a high Spren not honor Spren. 

[GeoMantrix]

Right, but Sigzil used to have an honorspren.  

Page 63 implies he's neither Shin nor Alethi.  Just rereading with details in mind.  

Edited October 15, 2023 by GeoMantrix

[bmcclure7]

49 minutes ago, GeoMantrix said:

Right, but Sigzil used to have an honorspren.  

Page 63 implies he's neither Shin nor Alethi.  Just rereading with details in mind.  

Obviously I mean we already know what country he is from.  

[+Child of Hodor]

On 10/13/2023 at 3:22 PM, Blackroot said:

In Rhythm of War, we see that Odium's forces now have weapons capable of killing spren (anti-light)... Could Sigzil's Honor spren be killed? In Sunlit Man he gets some of his radiant powers back whenever he is protecting people, could he have bonded a high spren with the ideals of following the windrunner ideals, having lost an Honor spren and being unable to bond a new one?

I think it’s this. His current Spren is killed and he attracts a Skybrealer Spren the next time. He is a stickler for rules and laws. He complains to Kaladin that a gay couple didn’t file the proper government forms in OB. He’s cool with them getting married but anmoyed they didn’t fill out the form correctly. A very Skybreaker-esque concern.

[trav]

On 13/10/2023 at 1:33 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Also remember that the sleepless wouldn't let a person with a Spren hold a dawn shard.

Sig may have been forced to give up the bond to take up the dawn shard.

I doubt Wit would have the same reservation as the Sleepless. And maybe oaths are really able to overwrite the limiting factors for a Dawnshard. There has to be some way since the Dawnshards were used offensively at least once.

Simplest explanation on why he switched is because he realized that the Humans on Roshar were the aggressors. This realization would break his oaths. With honorspren anyways.

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, trav said:

I doubt Wit would have the same reservation as the Sleepless. And maybe oaths are really able to overwrite the limiting factors for a Dawnshard. There has to be some way since the Dawnshards were used offensively at least once.

Simplest explanation on why he switched is because he realized that the Humans on Roshar were the aggressors. This realization would break his oaths. With honorspren anyways.

I'm not so sure about him not having the same reservations at least in regards to other people. 

[GeoMantrix]

Just noting that aux's division is described as interaxial force.   

This is further specified as holding axons together.  Making it weird that releases burn things,  but maybe there's another thread for that.  

Wrt the dawnshard, chapter 21 lists its qualities.  I'll have to check them on my pdf when I'm supposed to be awake.  

Edited October 17, 2023 by GeoMantrix

[trav]

21 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I'm not so sure about him not having the same reservations at least in regards to other people

If he did not trust Sigzil he would not give him the Dawnshard in the first place. Wit may not care if someone has too much power. After all he witnesses 16 people splitting up the ultimate power among them. And the Sleepless may be aware of things that Wit isn't.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, trav said:

If he did not trust Sigzil he would not give him the Dawnshard in the first place. Wit may not care if someone has too much power. After all he witnesses 16 people splitting up the ultimate power among them. And the Sleepless may be aware of things that Wit isn't.

Your making assumptions on why the prohibition exists it maybe nothing about power.

[Elite01]

Going back to the original question of why Nomad changed orders, I don't know why he did it but I think he chose to stop being a windrunner. 

on page 261 

"“Your job?” he asked in Alethi. “Since when has it been your job to moralize at me?” Since forever, Nomad. You threw out your conscience years ago, I know, though I never had a chance to meet her. That left the position vacant, regardless, so I appointed myself to fill it. I’d ask how I’m doing, but . . . well, you are clear evidence of how much of a rookie I still am"

So when Aux says Nomad threw out his conscience and never met her that implies that his conscience was an honorspren to me. The spren most likely acted as his conscience like Syl does for Kaladin. If he threw out his conscience then it was most likely a personal choice instead of his spren being killed.