Theory about why Sigzil switched orders

[GeoMantrix]

There's a part where Aux teases Nomad about being brash that stuck out on reread.  

[Lennon]

Assuming that the next stormlight chapters will show a conflict with some spren deaths, repeating the Teft's Phendorama death.

This could lead to knight's radiant to follow 3 possible outcomes:

1. avoiding another bond due the emotional trauma;
2. bonding a spren of the same order, if they are still aligned with that order values;
3. bonding a spren of a different order, due to character changes related to their last spren death and their impressions of the ongoing conflict. (my guess for Sigzil)

Don't remenber examples of an "unbonding" of sprens that did'nt result in the spren's death, and I'm wildly guessing Sigzil would be very burdened by guilt if he killed his first spren, so maybe it would be less traumatic to the spren being a casuality of the conflict with the singers.

 

[Elegy]

So we know the following things:

• Brandon has confirmed that we will see the origin of Sigzil's development in Stormlight 5:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

(...)

For those who are wondering, this does take place moderately far into the Cosmere’s future. This is not a spoiler for Stormlight 5, in that I intend it to be read before Stormlight 5. But you will find out in Stormlight 5 what caused this whole thing to happen. If it’s a spoiler, it’s not for much in the future of Stormlight. The division point will happen pretty soon here. And this is Sigzil’s story, here called Nomad. He will come out of this book with a different name. And he has a role to play in the future of the Cosmere.

(...)

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 24, 2022)

• That said though, Sigzil will not get the Dawnshard in Stormlight 5. He mentions in TSM that he got it when he was 38 (which caused him to stop aging at that point). He's not 38 in Stormlight 1-5, more like in his 20s, so that has to happen post-timeskip.
• Then there's this passage that has some hints about the chronology of it all:

Quote

 

“I was a knight,” he said, “of a very exclusive order. Two different orders actually, at two different times. For the first, I was one of their leaders, with oaths that were supposed to turn what I did from terrible into—if not beautiful—honorable. But then . . .”

How to explain this next part? A part he didn’t fully understand himself. “I was given charge over an extremely dangerous item. Capable of killing gods. Laying waste to planets. I carried that burden, found new bonds, but the weapon consumed important parts of me. Shredded the soul of one of my dearest friends. Stole my armor.

- TSM, Chapter 40

 

... So we actually know that Sigzil became a Skybreaker after he got the Dawnshard. Which, yes, is in violation of what the Sleepless told Rysn, but we don't know if the Sleepless ever know about what happens there (I would even strongly assume that they don't), so it's probable that Sigzil was never told that this could be a problem.

Interestingly, that passage does not mention when exactly he broke his first bond. It could have happened before or after he got the Dawnshard. But due to Brandon's above comment about all of this starting with Stormlight 5 in combination with the fact that Sigzil gets the Dawnshard in the back 5, this timeline seems logical to me:

1. Sigzil leaves the Windrunners some time in Stormlight 5
2. He spends the entire timeskip not being a Radiant
3. He gets the Dawnshard some time in Stormlight 6-10
4. Being on the run, he finds Aux and they form a bond.
5. In some occurance that we don't know the specifics of, he burns Aux, leaving his bond in a weird place.

We can't really speculate much on what exactly happened when Hoid made him a Dawnshard, since - as is evident in the quote above - Sigzil doesn't "fully understand" the things that happened there either. The other two huge question marks are:

1. Why did he leave the Windrunners? - Post-ROW, he's the leader of the Windrunners, but he hasn't had to handle many extremely dire situations since then; a few smaller scale fights against Skybreakers and then the fight with Ishar, but no real catastrophe. I think it's still possible that the Windrunners will go through an extremely bloody battle in Stormlight 5 that leads to so many losses that Sigzil is just done with not only the responsibility of being a leader of the Windrunners, but with the idea of having sworn to protect people (with the possibility of letting them down) in general. Remember that nothing indicates that he ever reached Shardplate level as a Windrunner - he probably never reached the fourth Ideal, he never accepted that there were those he couldn't save - which also makes sense with the way he acts in TSM - he actively tries to not feel connected to the people he should protect, precisely because he cannot accept losing them as soon as he does. So that's how that would make sense to me.
2. Why did he join the Skybreakers later? - There are two reasons that make sense to me, and I think a combination of the two is reasonable: First, he is on the run from people who do not mess around, so being a Skybreaker - and using the oaths to circumvent the Torment, as is hinted at during chapter 1 - probably seemed like a good idea. (Again, chances are that he had no idea that the Sleepless would have warned him.) Second, Sigzil repeatedly states how much he misses being able to fly, so when he spends 10+ years not being a Windrunner anymore, it makes sense that this would tip him over the edge to take the risk.

That's as much as I could gather.

On 10/23/2023 at 8:02 PM, Lennon said:

Don't remenber examples of an "unbonding" of sprens that did'nt result in the spren's death, and I'm wildly guessing Sigzil would be very burdened by guilt if he killed his first spren, so maybe it would be less traumatic to the spren being a casuality of the conflict with the singers.

The spren didn't know that they would turn to Deadeyes when the Radiants abandoned their oaths during the Recreance, which to me implies that them dying was never a problem before that. It was only when Ba-Ado-Mishram did weird things to how Connections work that it was changed somehow (in ways that we'll hopefully understand via book 5). It's very much possible (or even probable, given the hints in ROW) that this Connection weirdness could be resolved in book 5, so abandoning the oaths would not necessarily lead to Sigzil killing his spren.

[alder24]

@Elegy I think you've nailed it. I've noticed some hints in the book when Nomad is talking about being a leader and stuff like that -  he seems to regret some decisions he made as a leader, and as you pointed out, he became Windrunners' leader during RoW. For me the obvious conclusion is that he made a "grave" mistake (at least in his mind), which he regretted so much that he broke his Oaths with his Honorspren. Ch 33:

Quote

“Can’t say,” he replied. “But don’t be so eager. There are burdens to being in charge that you’re not considering. I guarantee it.”
She glanced at him. “Is that what happened to you?”
“Let’s just say that leadership didn’t agree with me.”
That’s not true, Nomad. You were a good leader.
“Aux, ‘good’ isn’t enough. Life, like measurements in science, often depends entirely on your frame of reference.”

Then he became the Dawnshard, bonded Aux in CR, they both swear Oaths, not just Sigzil, but Aux swore Oaths as well. After some time Sig broke his Oaths for no reason, but Aux didn't. Lastly the self-defense mechanism of the Dawnshard was triggered, feeding on Aux and killing most of him. Ch 45:

Quote

“Consequences,” he whispered. “I walked away from my oaths. I made the decision. And now now there are consequences.”
Why, though? You’ve never told me why you walked away after leaving Roshar. After all we’d been through together. You abandoned all you’d followed. Why would you do that?
Was it time? Time for the deepest, hardest truth—the answer that felt like teeth on pavement to acknowledge?
“I don’t know,” he said.
Liar.
“Not this time,” Nomad whispered. “I don’t know, Auxiliary. I just did it. I can’t explain my mindset. I can’t justify it. I disavowed my oaths. It’s the choice I made. But I didn’t have a reason.”
[...]
You don’t get to decide. I know about consequences. I understand that you betrayed your oaths.
But here’s the thing, Zellion. Here’s what you never have understood. I also swore to be better than I was. I became a Knight Radiant. I spoke the words.
And whatever you did, I never betrayed my oaths.

 

On 11/8/2023 at 2:01 AM, Elegy said:

So we actually know that Sigzil became a Skybreaker after he got the Dawnshard. Which, yes, is in violation of what the Sleepless told Rysn, but we don't know if the Sleepless ever know about what happens there (I would even strongly assume that they don't), so it's probable that Sigzil was never told that this could be a problem.

Yes, Sigzil was never warned about consequences of being Dawnshard while being bonded (said even in the book in ch 20):

Spoiler

AdelRD

Whatever is happening to Sigzil and his spren, is it related to the fact that the Sleepless forbid Rysn to bond a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Also a good question.

Matt Hatch

I admire all these people. These are great, deep metaphysical questions.

Adam

I am amazed every stream at how little I know. Not how much other people know, but how little I know.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say you are finding out, or Sigzil is finding out first hand part of why that warning was in place. And he didn't get that warning. He should have. Let's say that other people in the Cosmere have been able to do it without it being a problem. And so, you know, if you happen to be an age-old immortal master of multiple arcanum, then you can get away with things that poor people like Sigzil have more trouble with.

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

 

On 11/8/2023 at 2:01 AM, Elegy said:

Remember that nothing indicates that he ever reached Shardplate level as a Windrunner - he probably never reached the fourth Ideal

I think he did, the book strongly implies he became a Windrunner of 4th Ideal at least - his Shardplate was made out of two types of spren, from both orders. Ch 45:

Quote

The air broke around him—the fragments of his ancient armor trying to push into reality again. Some from his first oaths, some from his second

[Felt]

I have the feeling Dalinar will lose to Todiums champion, after that he will lead Roshar to bloody battle with the rest of the Cosmere.

Consequence of this could be another Recreance, where the Knights Radiant and/or their spren abandon the cause, because they do not want to aid Odium.

(This may be why the Scadrians don’t like Oathed Rosharans….)

And that would probably leave only a few Orders or even only the Highspren to bond humans, and only the Skybreakers remain to choose from for Sigzil. 

[Elegy]

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think he did, the book strongly implies he became a Windrunner of 4th Ideal at least - his Shardplate was made out of two types of spren, from both orders. Ch 45:

Thanks, I missed that! Wow, that means it's a half Skybreaker, half Windrunner plate, that's interesting.

As far as we know, Sig has not reached the fourth Ideal as of ROW, so according to my timeline above, he'd have to reach it and then break it within SA5, perhaps even within the Final Ten Days.

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, Sigzil was never warned about consequences of being Dawnshard while being bonded (said even in the book in ch 20):

Completely forgot that WOB, good to have it confirmed! Makes his whole biography even more tragic somehow, the fact that he was thrown into all of this without even the basic warnings that were the first thing Rysn was told when she got her Dawnshard.

[Felt]

2 minutes ago, Elegy said:

As far as we know, Sig has not reached the fourth Ideal as of ROW, so according to my timeline above, he'd have to reach it and then break it within SA5, perhaps even within the Final Ten Days.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don’t think he has to reach or break it within SA5, Brandon implied that events will be set in motion for Sigzil, that can mean also, for example, a change on Roshar that sets him on this path. Like odium winning, or the Knights Radiant performing another Recreance, or the Windrunners losing a major battle with a lot of friends dying…

[Forts Board]

On 10/19/2023 at 1:07 AM, Elite01 said:

Your job?” he asked in Alethi. “Since when has it been your job to moralize at me?” Since forever, Nomad. You threw out your conscience years ago, I know, though I never had a chance to meet her. That left the position vacant, regardless, so I appointed myself to fill it. I’d ask how I’m doing, but . . . well, you are clear evidence of how much of a rookie I still am"

Yea, i think everyone has been being too nice to Sigzil... not that that's bad, but its more likely, that he broke his oaths to his honorspren. Just like it seems that he broke his oaths to Aux...

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

which he regretted so much that he broke his Oaths with his Honorspren. Ch 33:

Then he became the Dawnshard, bonded Aux in CR, they both swear Oaths, not just Sigzil,

Quote

“Consequences,” he whispered. “I walked away from my oaths. I made the decision. And now now there are consequences.”

 

5 hours ago, Felt said:

Consequence of this could be another Recreance,

5 hours ago, Elegy said:

As far as we know, Sig has not reached the fourth Ideal as of ROW, so according to my timeline above, he'd have to reach it and then break it within SA5, perhaps even within the Final Ten Days.

Everybody is so quick to jump to the conclusion that Sigzil broke his Windrunner Oaths. TSM very specifically never says that (see above quote from @alder24, emphasis mine)

We also have this WoB:

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Can a spren willingly break their bond anytime between the First and Fifth Oath, with their Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible--

Overlord Jebus

Essentially committing suicide isn't it though--

Brandon Sanderson

I just ascribe to that question-- A spren could at any point break it. Can they break it safely? That's a different question.

Overlord Jebus

Can they break it safely? *laughs*

Brandon Sanderson

There are methods in place where it can be stopped. So yes it can be done. But once you've started into this, once you've chosen on both sides, it's a dangerous process. But yes it can be done, and it can be done safely.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

It is possible that Sigzil and his honorspren agreed to end their bond (possibly to make it safe for Sig to become a DawnVessel). Both are possible - breaking oaths and voluntarily ending the bond. 

My guess is that in the time between leaving the Windrunners and joining the Skybreakers, Sigzil had changed - and something about Aux (especially since it is implied they met in Shadesmar at some point before bonding) drew Sigzil enough to consider a new bond (or circumstances made it such that he felt he needed a new bond). 

 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Everybody is so quick to jump to the conclusion that Sigzil broke his Windrunner Oaths. TSM very specifically never says that (see above quote from @alder24, emphasis mine)

We also have this WoB:

Yes, and we have also this WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Kaladin kind of went back on his Oaths in the second book, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He started down that path.

Questioner

How could Shallan or Lightweavers go back on the truths they make? And did Shallan do any of that in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the Cryptics-- remember, how the spren is viewing this is very important. The Cryptics have an interesting relationship with truth. Harder to break your Oaths in that direction with a Cryptic. Harder to move forward, also, if you're not facing some of these things and interacting with them in the right way. But, while I can conceive a world that it could happen, it'd be really hard to for a Lightweaver to do some of the stuff. Particularly the ones close to Honor, you're gonna end up with more trouble along those lines, let's say.

Questioner

So then, what happened with the Lightweavers during the Recreance? Did they break their Oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

They did break their Oaths. I mean, breaking your Oaths as in "walking away from the first Oath" will still do it, regardless of what Order you are. You can actively say, "I am breaking my Oaths and walking away." Anyone has that option. But you also are holding the life of a spren in your hand.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

That's why the rest of the quote is important. "You abandoned all you’d followed.", "I disavowed my oaths." and "you betrayed your oaths." - Sig didn't just end his Oaths, he outright betrayed them - worse than Kaladin in WoR, and that almost killed Syl.

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It is possible that Sigzil and his honorspren agreed to end their bond (possibly to make it safe for Sig to become a DawnVessel). Both are possible - breaking oaths and voluntarily ending the bond. 

That's what they did during Recreance, and it didn't end well. But there are some ways to safely break the bond before reaching the 5th Ideal (per Notum's words in OB).

[Elegy]

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Everybody is so quick to jump to the conclusion that Sigzil broke his Windrunner Oaths. TSM very specifically never says that (see above quote from @alder24, emphasis mine)

I know that this is very nitpicky, but I specifically meant breaking the fourth Ideal in that comment. (If he really gave up being a Windrunner because of something terrible that happened, that would probably mean that he can't accept that there are those that he can't protect anymore - and he really doesn't accept that in Sunlit Man imo. That was the thought process.) If I said that he broke it in another comment, I meant he ended it, because I'm definitely not sure how it happened.

[LuckyJim]

The vibe I got from Sigzil's narration was that at some point while acting as the leader of the Windrunners, he has a massive failure that he can't emotionally recover from. When you consider that the fourth ideal (which he will eventually hit) is "I will accept there will be those I cannot protect", a pretty clear picture starts to form. He broke under the stress of that failure, probably because he got a lot of people killed, and broke his bond as a result of it. It may have even been intentional, as he felt he wasn't worthy of being a Windrunner anymore.

A more interesting question to me is why did he become a Skybreaker? He doesn't seem to have any interest in justice, even in the moments where he starts to act on his oaths and recover his armor, it seems more like he's acting on his Windrunner oaths of protection. I guess he only bonded Aux out of convenience, since it seems like they met through a chance encounter (and from a meta perspective, this lets him keep the surge of Gravitation) but it's interesting to me that despite reaching the fourth ideal as a Skybreaker and supposedly changing a lot in the years between SA and now, he still feels more like a Windrunner.

That being said there is a bit on the Skybreaker blurb on Brandon's website that seems relevant.

Quote

The Skybreakers were the enforcers of the Knights Radiant, often tasked with keeping the peace, policing the other Orders, and making certain that dangerous or dark forces in the world were contained.

It seems pretty relevant, since it seems like he bonded Aux to help keep the Dawnshard safe.

[Guest]

My Theory for Stormlight 5 is that Odium's Champion is going to win.

This will cause Dalinar to order the Windrunners to stand down/surrender, and if they wish to remain Radiant they will have to Bond a Highspren.  Obviously, a number of Windrunners will refuse, but I suspect that either Sigzil will attempt to work within the new rulership system and Unbond his Spren, or if Brandon goes darkside then Sigzil's Spren will be the literal final casualty of the war and Odium-Dalinar will find and mold a broken, grieving Sigzil, demand he take certain actions, and then offer him a new Spren.

[Belgarad]

I have a feeling all of the Honorspren will sacrifice themselves in an effort to recreate the Shard of Honor.  Dalinar will use his Bondsmith powers to combine them with the last slivers of the Shard to make it again. Either himself or Kaladin will take up that Shard to face Taravangian in the contest of Champions.  This will cause to the order of Windrunners to cease to exist.  Unite Them indeed!

[Lennon]

@Elegy very good points. I can see now that there are other branches of thought for how his 1st bond ended, thank you!

[Colors]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:50 PM, teknopathetic said:

Sigzil says he bonded Aux in a place full of “obsidian”, so maybe Sigzil bonded Aux last minute as he was running through Shadesmaar.

My pet theory is Aux isn’t from the planet Roshar, but was living somewhere else in the Solar System. 

This was definitely my interpretation.  I thought it was pretty obvious, I think the real question is where in the cognitive realm he met Aux.

On 11/15/2023 at 8:45 AM, Belgarad said:

I have a feeling all of the Honorspren will sacrifice themselves in an effort to recreate the Shard of Honor.  Dalinar will use his Bondsmith powers to combine them with the last slivers of the Shard to make it again. Either himself or Kaladin will take up that Shard to face Taravangian in the contest of Champions.  This will cause to the order of Windrunners to cease to exist.  Unite Them indeed!

This is interesting and along the line of some of my thoughts.