Alumínio he/him Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 Roshar has too much investiture and the radiants are incredibly overpower I think it's unfair to other worlds How could other planets compete with the level of raw energy they have?
alder24 Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Alumínio said: Roshar has too much investiture and the radiants are incredibly overpower I think it's unfair to other worlds How could other planets compete with the level of raw energy they have? It's statistically unlikely to become a Radiant. Roshar has probably tens or hundreds of millions of people living there, but only low tens of thousands can be Radiants at any moment. Statistically it's more likely to be born a Metalborn on Scadrial (15 mil population in the Basin while around 20k is Metalborn). Or you can be born on Nalthis and get a Breath as a present, then only your persuasion skills stop you from acquiring more Breaths and becoming an Awakener. If you want to have access to any invested art, be born on Nalthis, or just go there and buy Breaths. But in case of raw investiture competition, then yes, Roshar is probably the most invested world, with investiture being the most accessible, with invested arts giving you really powerful abilities. But Selish Elantrians can replicate basically any invested art, including Surgebinding, and can also access a lot of power. And there are ways to make working Aons far away from Elantris and we saw those in two books already (TLM and Tress). Spoiler The_Second_Best Are Feruchemists the Batman of the Cosmere? They can beat anyone with enough time to prep? Brandon Sanderson They are very versatile, but I'd say that Elantrians--on their home turf--could win in that department. They things they could do with enough preparation are even more impressive. /r/books AMA 2015 (July 31, 2015) But even more raw power used to be on Scadrial. Just think of it, every thousand years someone Ascended and had so much power, that they could move a planet, shift continents, change genes of living creatures, turn people into monsters and make themselves into a god. Not even on Roshar you can manipulate that amount of investiture.
Quantus he/him Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 Each of the main worlds/Magics has something none of the others can match very easily. Allomancy is the only one with a direct and theoretically unlimited Connection to Spiritual Realm Investiture; all the others need to get obtain the Power source externally (Breath stockpiles, Stormlight, Dor, etc). Feruchemists have some of the best personal Augmentation (if they get the whole set), and the keys to Mechanizing the all the Powers (not just Scadrials) via Medallions. Roshar has Investiture that can talk to you, Bond with your very soul, or power technological Magic through Fabrials; but they are reliant on the Storm or some equivalently abundant Investiture, and currently too Connected to leave their home system. Sel and it's Magics are the High Arcane of the setting, with several schools of magic and few upper limits, but they are all very academic and slow in their adaptation and development. Breaths and Awakening, leading to Robot-spren like Nightblood and siblings, will be the AI skynet wildcards of the world capable of making new Sapient things, and the fact that they can be powered by any investiture makes their potential incredibly unpredictable. 39 minutes ago, alder24 said: But even more raw power used to be on Scadrial. Just think of it, every thousand years someone Ascended and had so much power, that they could move a planet, shift continents, change genes of living creatures, turn people into monsters and make themselves into a god. Not even on Roshar you can manipulate that amount of investiture. I mean, I think you could still try, but you'd have to first go Through the Horneaters (as in All of them), then have a face-to-face with a Dragon. Unless that only worked on Scadrial because of the P vs R fighting, in which case it's theoretically off the table moving forward. 3
Frustration Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Quantus said: Allomancy is the only one with a direct and theoretically unlimited Connection to Spiritual Realm Investiture; all the others need to get obtain the Power source externally (Breath stockpiles, Stormlight, Dor, etc). Both Aetherbound and Sandmasters can use non-invested materials to fuel their powers.
Quantus he/him Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 Sandmasters still require that someone or something Else brings the Investiture to the Physical World, they then just store it in the Sand. Some of the other Aethers might be able to produce a direct form of Investiture to power other things, rather than purely trading water for Aether-mass as we've mostly seen so far. But even they are unlikely to be able to just jack themselves into the Spiritual Realm until savantism sets in.
Alumínio he/him Posted October 10, 2023 Author Posted October 10, 2023 metal minds can be stolen by other factions, a radiant knight bond cannot In a futuristic cosmere I imagine that a single radiant 4 idea could support an entire standard army Magitech does not surpass individual raw power
Frustration Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 4 hours ago, Quantus said: Sandmasters still require that someone or something Else brings the Investiture to the Physical World, they then just store it in the Sand. Some of the other Aethers might be able to produce a direct form of Investiture to power other things, rather than purely trading water for Aether-mass as we've mostly seen so far. But even they are unlikely to be able to just jack themselves into the Spiritual Realm until savantism sets in. When has any allomancer jacked themselves into the spiritual realm?
StanLemon Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 29 minutes ago, Frustration said: When has any allomancer jacked themselves into the spiritual realm? Technically every time they burn metal
Frustration Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 Just now, StanLemon said: Technically every time they burn metal Um... No? The metal breaks down creating a conduit to the spiritual realm, but the allomancer themselves isn't going anywhere. 1
StanLemon Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: Um... No? The metal breaks down creating a conduit to the spiritual realm, but the allomancer themselves isn't going anywhere. I think you may have misunderstood the original comment. Quantus seems to be talking about drawing power directly from the Spiritual Realm, not going into it. Edited October 11, 2023 by StanLemon
Frustration Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 1 minute ago, StanLemon said: I think you may have misunderstood the original comment. Quantus was talking about drawing power directly from the Spiritual Realm, not going into it. The original comment: 5 hours ago, Quantus said: Sandmasters still require that someone or something Else brings the Investiture to the Physical World, they then just store it in the Sand. Some of the other Aethers might be able to produce a direct form of Investiture to power other things, rather than purely trading water for Aether-mass as we've mostly seen so far. But even they are unlikely to be able to just jack themselves into the Spiritual Realm until savantism sets in.
StanLemon Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 Just now, Frustration said: The original comment: I'm not sure how that reads to you, but based off the context of the conversation, that reads like "plug themselves into the Spiritual Realm to power their Invested Art"
Alumínio he/him Posted October 11, 2023 Author Posted October 11, 2023 7 hours ago, alder24 said: É estatisticamente improvável que se torne um Radiante. Roshar tem provavelmente dezenas ou centenas de milhões de pessoas vivendo lá, mas apenas algumas dezenas de milhares podem ser Radiantes a qualquer momento. Estatisticamente é mais provável que nasça um Metalborn em Scadrial (15 mil habitantes na Bacia, enquanto cerca de 20 mil são Metalborn). You cited tens of thousands Is there such a thing as a maximum number of radiant spren? Does their quantity increase?
Frustration Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Alumínio said: You cited tens of thousands Is there such a thing as a maximum number of radiant spren? Yes. 3 minutes ago, Alumínio said: Does their quantity increase? Very slowly. 3 minutes ago, StanLemon said: I'm not sure how that reads to you, but based off the context of the conversation, that reads like "plug themselves into the Spiritual Realm to power their Invested Art" Unless it was a typo and they meant "hack" instead of "jack" it reads as going to or at least drawing close to the spiritual realm. But either way there is a flaw in the premise as energy is coming to Aetherbound from the spiritual realm. Edited October 11, 2023 by Frustration
Alumínio he/him Posted October 11, 2023 Author Posted October 11, 2023 49 minutes ago, Frustration said: Quando algum alomante entrou no reino espiritual? elend burning atium/electrum with duralumin "entered" the spiritual realm with many ""
Frustration Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 Just now, Alumínio said: elend burning atium/electrum with duralumin "entered" the spiritual realm with many "" No, he saw the spiritual realm, which is very different, and was specifically a result of using a shard metal, not an innate part of allomancy.
Alumínio he/him Posted October 11, 2023 Author Posted October 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Frustration said: Não, ele viu o reino espiritual, que é muito diferente, e foi especificamente o resultado do uso de um fragmento de metal, não uma parte inata da alomancia. That's why I mentioned it in quotation marks, if he had a glimpse of the spiritual realm he at least entered there with his mind
Frustration Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 Just now, Alumínio said: That's why I mentioned it in quotation marks, if he had a glimpse of the spiritual realm he at least entered there with his mind Elsecallers and Willshapers can look into the cognitive realm without going there, what Elend did was different only in that he peered into the spiritual realm.
alder24 Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 17 hours ago, Quantus said: I mean, I think you could still try, but you'd have to first go Through the Horneaters (as in All of them), then have a face-to-face with a Dragon. Unless that only worked on Scadrial because of the P vs R fighting, in which case it's theoretically off the table moving forward. I think the Well of Ascension is unique because it's more than some ordinary perpendicularity. It's where Ruin's mind was imprisoned by Preservation's mind, and the Well was a key to that power. The Well was part of that prison. 13 hours ago, Alumínio said: metal minds can be stolen by other factions, a radiant knight bond cannot Medalminds are useless without Feruchemical ability, Medallions have some serious limitations and it appears you can't both store and tap in the same medallion - it's one way use only, and only Malwish know how to refill/empty them. Spren bonds can be stolen with Radiant powers by Hemalurgy: Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work. Questioner (paraphrased) Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection. GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017) 10 hours ago, Alumínio said: You cited tens of thousands Is there such a thing as a maximum number of radiant spren? Yes. During Recreance there were 2000 Honorspren, that's where this number of tens of thousands came from. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: No, he saw the spiritual realm, which is very different, and was specifically a result of using a shard metal, not an innate part of allomancy. He did enter it, most of Elend was pulled into SR. Remember SR isn't some place, so the way you "enter" it is different than what you would expect. Spoiler Argent Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it... Argent As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague? Brandon Sanderson No... Questioner #1 As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it. Brandon Sanderson No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm. Argent Oh, that's what happens there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit. Argent So, Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony... Questioner #2 Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda? Brandon Sanderson Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception! Questioner #2 The <mists? mistwraith?>? Brandon Sanderson No. Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) 1
Quantus he/him Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 12 hours ago, StanLemon said: I'm not sure how that reads to you, but based off the context of the conversation, that reads like "plug themselves into the Spiritual Realm to power their Invested Art" 12 hours ago, Frustration said: Unless it was a typo and they meant "hack" instead of "jack" it reads as going to or at least drawing close to the spiritual realm. But either way there is a flaw in the premise as energy is coming to Aetherbound from the spiritual realm. Yeah, I just meant "Jacked" as in plugged directly into a Spiritual Realm Power Source. This is limited to Allomancers, Aetherbound (full disclosure I have not ready tress yet), and Lift. These are the only forms of Investiture that I can think of where the user can pull Investiture directly from the Spiritual realm instead of needing a pre-imported form like Stormlight or Breaths or White Sand, or even Dor in it's own way. I was sort of discounting Lift and the Aetherbound because they (I assume?) need to ingest significant volumes of food or water to get their Investiture, enough to be mechanically limited when compared to the metal-to-Investiture density of allomancy. Side note because this uncovered an assumption I was making: I always assumed Lift = F-Bendalloy from an Investiture Conversion stand-point, since they are both described as converting Calories to Investiture. For that reason I assumed Lift's conversion capability was in the low-power Feruchemical scale, far below the level of Investiture that Allomancy/Compounding could produce. But I dont think that fits with what we know of the relative power levels of Feruchemy vs Allomancy Vs Surges. This leads to the question Does Lift create/import more, less or equivalent Investiture per calorie compared to a Subsumer? 1
alder24 Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Quantus said: Yeah, I just meant "Jacked" as in plugged directly into a Spiritual Realm Power Source. This is limited to Allomancers, Aetherbound (full disclosure I have not ready tress yet), and Lift. 1 hour ago, Quantus said: Side note because this uncovered an assumption I was making: I always assumed Lift = F-Bendalloy from an Investiture Conversion stand-point, since they are both described as converting Calories to Investiture. For that reason I assumed Lift's conversion capability was in the low-power Feruchemical scale, far below the level of Investiture that Allomancy/Compounding could produce. But I dont think that fits with what we know of the relative power levels of Feruchemy vs Allomancy Vs Surges. This leads to the question Does Lift create/import more, less or equivalent Investiture per calorie compared to a Subsumer? Lift doesn't draw from SR, she turns food directly into investiture. I have no idea how it's comparable to Subsumer, technically that's what Feruchemists do as well. Spoiler Argent Does Lift turn food into Investiture directly or is it similar to the metals on-- Brandon Sanderson Similar to the metals. Argent So like a gate? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent Okay, that's good to know. Brandon Sanderson She can metabolize-- She can draw-- It's not actually the food, it's-- It's not like the metals, not exactly. It's not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into Investiture instead of sugar. Does that make sense? Argent Yeah. Brandon Sanderson We metabolize food into sugar. She can metabolize it into Investiture. Does that make sense? Argent That makes a lot of sense. So if she eats-- Brandon Sanderson She's got to have a blood sugar spike. Argent So if she eats like a cake it will give her more Investiture-- Brandon Sanderson Faster. It will give her faster. Argent Whereas if she eats a vegetable... Brandon Sanderson Vegetable... More calories is going to equal more. But the better comparison would be a sausage and bread. Because bread is a fast blood sugar spike and the sausage is not. And that's how I'm working in my head. It's kind of a magical version of a blood sugar spike and I have it happen to her faster than it could happen. Like normally you eat a piece of bread and your blood sugar spikes in a half hour, it's going to go faster for Lift. Argent Hers is like five minutes. Brandon Sanderson Hers is like five minutes, but a sausage would be slower. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) Spoiler Gary Singer (paraphrased) Could Lift convert food from other cosmere worlds into Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes. Lift's Spiritweb has something changed about it to allow converting mass to Investiture directly. Out of Excuses 2016 (Sept. 23, 2016)
Quantus he/him Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, alder24 said: Lift doesn't draw from SR, she turns food directly into investiture. I have no idea how it's comparable to Subsumer, technically that's what Feruchemists do as well. Hide contents Argent Does Lift turn food into Investiture directly or is it similar to the metals on-- Brandon Sanderson Similar to the metals. Argent So like a gate? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent Okay, that's good to know. Brandon Sanderson She can metabolize-- She can draw-- It's not actually the food, it's-- It's not like the metals, not exactly. It's not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into Investiture instead of sugar. Does that make sense? Argent Yeah. Brandon Sanderson We metabolize food into sugar. She can metabolize it into Investiture. Does that make sense? Argent That makes a lot of sense. So if she eats-- Brandon Sanderson She's got to have a blood sugar spike. Argent So if she eats like a cake it will give her more Investiture-- Brandon Sanderson Faster. It will give her faster. Argent Whereas if she eats a vegetable... Brandon Sanderson Vegetable... More calories is going to equal more. But the better comparison would be a sausage and bread. Because bread is a fast blood sugar spike and the sausage is not. And that's how I'm working in my head. It's kind of a magical version of a blood sugar spike and I have it happen to her faster than it could happen. Like normally you eat a piece of bread and your blood sugar spikes in a half hour, it's going to go faster for Lift. Argent Hers is like five minutes. Brandon Sanderson Hers is like five minutes, but a sausage would be slower. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) Hide contents Gary Singer (paraphrased) Could Lift convert food from other cosmere worlds into Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes. Lift's Spiritweb has something changed about it to allow converting mass to Investiture directly. Out of Excuses 2016 (Sept. 23, 2016) Soooo, that first WOB seems to contradict itself. It's Either converting the food mass directly into Investiture OR it's acting like a Gate to the SR the way Metals do in Allomancy.
alder24 Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, Quantus said: Soooo, that first WOB seems to contradict itself. It's Either converting the food mass directly into Investiture OR it's acting like a Gate to the SR the way Metals do in Allomancy. Brandon corrected himself later "It's not like the metals, not exactly". She metabolizes food into investiture directly.
Quantus he/him Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Brandon corrected himself later "It's not like the metals, not exactly". She metabolizes food into investiture directly. Yep, sorry, my pre-caffeinated brain skipped over that line completely. It still leaves me wanting to know more about the relative Investiture yield of Lift vs a Ferring. Im guessing Lift gets a little more direct Mass-Investiture conversion right in her digestive tract (given how fast it works), while Ferrings might be more about storing the energy after their body has converted it into Sugars in their bloodstream, with a lot of efficiency loss (or some other biological rate restriction).
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 23 hours ago, Alumínio said: Roshar has too much investiture and the radiants are incredibly overpower I think it's unfair to other worlds How could other planets compete with the level of raw energy they have? Eh, it's not so bad for some other worlds. ( @alder24 already mentioned Nalthis and Sel, so I'll focus on Scadiel, my favorite Shardworld) Scadrial has access to their own form of magitech, which will only progress as time moves on. I also doubt that Scadrial will stay as Investiture poor compared to the other Shardworlds forever, as there are ways of boosting their own Investiture (advanced Unsealed Metalminds, supercharged Hemalurgic spikes, Lerasium production, Compounding, etc.) and they almost certainly will find a way to harness their largest source of local Investiture- the Mists- someday, similar to how Roshar uses Highstorm Investiture to power their Fabrials and such (though they will need to find a way to process it first, to purify it as the Dor can). And while Scadrial's magics aren't as naturally versatile as the others, I doubt they will stay that way forever as technological processes and Realmatic theory allow them to program Investiture and such.
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