kaladin is the next honor

[mark_61]

so I know this may be bizarre to some people but here it is Let's start by saying this Kaladin is going to Shinobar in book 5 a place heavily associated with honor in one pre chapter it is said that honor is in the west so it shinobar they also don't have the storms but somehow have straight to train with the swords of honor suggesting that the body of honor is there but why will paladin become honor? well he is one of 2 charcters refferd to as "sonof honor" by the storm father along with dalinar but he is the only one ever refferd to as "son of tansivat"(honor's real name) by the storm father also he has sill who is a chiled of the storm father who is a chiled of honor but let's circle back to "son of tansivat" this plus the fact that his father is as honrble as kaladin himself implais that much like how Cultivation groomed cirten charcters to fit her plans and how odiam tried to do with dalinar(but it's also implaid that that is something he is used to doing since one of the rules honor forced on him is that he couldnt influince anyone diractly) that honor did the same and influnced kaladins bloodline to ivantualy get someone that fits his needs a.k.a replacing him after he died beacuse we also know that he had just engthe time to sculpt the storm father it's totlly reasenable that he suclpted a bloodline of his new subjects(the humens) so that one in that bloodline in our case kaladin could rise up and take his palce as honor. (sorry if i boched any of the names i didnt read the books in english)

[Sir Squeekins he/him]

Good points. We have seen that kind of thing in other series, specifically when

Spoiler

Sazed becomes Harmony.

But if Kaladin does end up as Honor, what does that mean for his 5th ideal...?

[Aredor]

While Kaladin could end up with honor, I find this result unlikely. Kaladin does not have access to the vast majority of Honor's power, and so that makes it less likely to happen. Also, Syl needs Kaladin, and vice versa. We have seen that when Kal is in his darkest moments, Syl is there to cheer him up. In RoW, when Syl starts to remember Relador, she starts to need Kaladin to cheer her up. 

I find it much more likely that Dalinar becomes Honor. Dalinar is the one bonded to the Stormfather, who is the largest remnant of Honor's power. Also, Cultivation has visited 3 people that we know of - Taravangian, Lift, and Dalinar. As (RoW spoiler)

Spoiler

Taravangian becomes Odium, 

we can theorize that the same will happen to the other two. Lift has been changed to only accept Lifelight, Cultivation's light. Dalinar was changed to become closer to Honor so that he wouldn't accept Odium, and possibly to accept the same as Taravangian did. 

You raised some excellent points, though. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong and you were right! 

[Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

1 hour ago, Aredor said:

While Kaladin could end up with honor, I find this result unlikely. Kaladin does not have access to the vast majority of Honor's power, and so that makes it less likely to happen. Also, Syl needs Kaladin, and vice versa. We have seen that when Kal is in his darkest moments, Syl is there to cheer him up. In RoW, when Syl starts to remember Relador, she starts to need Kaladin to cheer her up. 

I find it much more likely that Dalinar becomes Honor. Dalinar is the one bonded to the Stormfather, who is the largest remnant of Honor's power. Also, Cultivation has visited 3 people that we know of - Taravangian, Lift, and Dalinar. As (RoW spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

Taravangian becomes Odium, 

we can theorize that the same will happen to the other two. Lift has been changed to only accept Lifelight, Cultivation's light. Dalinar was changed to become closer to Honor so that he wouldn't accept Odium, and possibly to accept the same as Taravangian did. 

You raised some excellent points, though. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong and you were right! 

Ah but Dalinar Ascending would be predictable.

[Aredor]

While, yes, it would,  Brandon has stated that he's not going to ruin good foreshadowing just because the fans guess what the result is going to be. I think it might be something like Oathbringer, where he hits us with the 1-2 punch, where we can predict one thing, but be completely blindsided by another. 

[mark_61]

7 hours ago, Aredor said:
While Kaladin could end up with honor, I find this result unlikely. Kaladin does not have access to the vast majority of Honor's power, and so that makes it less likely to happen. Also, Syl needs Kaladin, and vice versa. We have seen that when Kal is in his darkest moments, Syl is there to cheer him up. In RoW, when Syl starts to remember Relador, she starts to need Kaladin to cheer her up. 
I find it much more likely that Dalinar becomes Honor. Dalinar is the one bonded to the Stormfather, who is the largest remnant of Honor's power. Also, Cultivation has visited 3 people that we know of - Taravangian, Lift, and Dalinar. As (RoW spoiler)
  Reveal hidden contents
we can theorize that the same will happen to the other two. Lift has been changed to only accept Lifelight, Cultivation's light. Dalinar was changed to become closer to Honor so that he wouldn't accept Odium, and possibly to accept the same as Taravangian did. 
You raised some excellent points, though. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong and you were right! 
U do have a point but I'll give you an answer to it first kaladin is going to say the fifth oath of the windrunners the order that is closest to honor and we only know of one other character that said the fifth oath and it's nale who is basically a spern himself and as I said or at the very least implied kaladin will go to shinobar were the body of honor is and he is going to fight the herald ishar but he isn't going to have enough stormlight in the sphere's he brought with him and then he'll start absorbing more stormlight directly from the body of honor that with the fact that he'll have the fifth oath of the windrunners the order closest to honor and the fact the he is called son of tansavat he will become honor but regarding to syl she really doesn't have to live him there is a good chance that the storm father will die beacuse the parsnaby known as god knows how to kill sperns and the storm father is bond to dalinar who's going to fight "god" so a new slot will open and after kaladin becomes honor he could turn syl into the new storm father which also is logical in the lore of the world because syl is the daughter of the storm father 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Then let me ask a simple question: The Shard of Honor has been splintered. How would he even find the pieces?

[alder24]

5 hours ago, mark_61 said:

7 hours ago, Aredor said:
[...]
You raised some excellent points, though. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong and you were right! 

You can simply quote the post by clicking the "quote" option at the bottom of a post. More tips:

Spoiler

t the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link, and (your posts only) and Edit link. On the bottom right you will see an up arrow.

• The Up Arrow is how you thank people or "like" a post
• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is
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Hope that helps.

 

 

15 hours ago, mark_61 said:

a place heavily associated with honor in one pre chapter it is said that honor is in the west

Could you provide a quote or a chapter?

15 hours ago, mark_61 said:

they also don't have the storms but somehow have straight to train with the swords of honor suggesting that the body of honor

Shinovar has Highstorms, but because it's so far east, Highstorms have to pass through several mountain ranges, which weakens them severely by the time they get to Shinovar. 

Shins have Honorblades because they've picked them up during Aharietiam, after Heralds left them. Honor was still alive at that time.

Honor is a Shard, Shards exist primarily in the Spiritual Realm, not in the Physical Realm. There is no body of Honor in the Physical Realm (that would be very noticeable and potentially dangerous). Shards investiture in the Physical Realm manifests as either gas (Stormlight), liquid (Perpendicularity) or solid (god metal) - we have gaseous form of Honor's investiture as a Stormlight, which existed pre-Splintering. Roshar doesn't have a stable Perpendicularity of Honor, so no liquid investiture, and solid investiture - Tanavastium - is in form of Honorblades and alloyed with Cultivation's god metal to create Shardblades. There is enough of Stormlight, spren and other forms of Honor’s investiture on Roshar to provide some kind of relief valve for Honor’s raw, splintered investiture not to go crazy and dangerous in the Physical Realm. There is no Honor’s body in the Physical Realm. It's all in the Spiritual Realm, attached mostly to the Stormfather, who is Honor's Cognitive Shadow.

Spoiler

sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

[spoilers out]

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Honorblades are different from Honor-Shard - they were given to Heralds long before Honor was Splintered. Honor is Splintered, his pieces are separated in SR, and the biggest piece of Honor is merged with the Stormfather.

15 hours ago, mark_61 said:

but he is the only one ever refferd to as "son of tansivat"(honor's real name) by the storm father

Yup, there is a reason why Kaladin is called "Child of Tanavast". Correction, Tanavast is the name of the Shardholder of the Shard of Honor, the Vessel of Honor. Honor's real name is still Honor, but its Vessel's name was Tanavast.

Spoiler

Winds Alight (paraphrased)

In SA the Stormfather refers to several people as "Child of Honor", but only Kaladin as "Child of Tanavast". Is there significance to that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, there is.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Overall, yes, it's very likely that Kaladin will become the new Vessel of the Shard of Honor, because of the reasons you've pointed out. Good job.

 

 

5 hours ago, mark_61 said:

the windrunners the order that is closest to honor

Highspren would disagree:

Spoiler

[...]

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

5 hours ago, mark_61 said:

and we only know of one other character that said the fifth oath and it's nale who is basically a spern himself

This is not because he swore the 5th Ideal, this is because he is a Herald, a Cognitive Shadow, who in some way are similar to Spren. But Nale bonded with a Highspren long after he became a Herald. Many other Radiants swore 5th Ideal after formation of the Knights Radiant and that didn't change them into Spren or something.

5 hours ago, mark_61 said:

there is a good chance that the storm father will die beacuse the parsnaby known as god knows how to kill sperns and the storm father is bond to dalinar who's going to fight "god" so a new slot will open and after kaladin becomes honor he could turn syl into the new storm father which also is logical in the lore of the world because syl is the daughter of the storm father 

Alright, this was wild. Who is this "parsnaby" (Parshman?) known as god? Odium? Odium is a Shard, he won't fight Dalinar directly, his champion will. We don't know who that is. And what do you mean by "kill the Stormfather"? Turn him into a deadeye? That might be reversible, as Maya and Adolin showed. Splinter him and destroy him completely? That's possible only if Odium were to be freed out of Honor's restrictions (which might happen, but if Odium were to be freed and he were to kill Stormfather, then he would Splinter the biggest piece of Honor into tiny pieces and any reformation of Honor would be almost impossible at that point - Kaladin wouldn't be able to Ascend to Honor). Shard of Honor could possibly reinvest other spren to the level of the Stormfather but that was a wild theory. Interesting but wild.

Syl can exist without Kaladin just fine, she will find a new person to bond with. If Kaladin were to Ascend to Honor, Syl's bond with him would likely end without making her a deadeye.

Not only Syl is the daughter of the Stormfather. He created 2 generations of Honorspren, one of which was turned into deadeye during Recreance. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by alder24

[mark_61]

Ok Im new to this and don't know how to directly respond but the parshmen named god isn't odium rather it's "eal" I don't know how to spell his name in my native tongue it directly translates to god and I'm aware of the fact that nale is a sparne due to being a herald and not the fifth oath but I think that there is a significance to the fifth oath beacuse we don't know of anyone other than nale that said it and the one of the stormbreakers is really abstract like becoming the law? So I think if kaladin will say the fifth oath it'll probably prepare him to being honor. And I don't mean kill the stormfather like Mia rather like the spern of teft who died completely and I didn't say that it's something that's bound to happen (the stormfather dieing and syl transcending to his job) but rather something I would enjoy seeing 

Edited October 10, 2023 by mark_61

[mark_61]

Aredor:
we can theorize that the same will happen to the other two. Lift has been changed to only accept Lifelight, Cultivation's light. Dalinar was changed to become closer to Honor so that he wouldn't accept Odium, and possibly to accept the same as Taravangian did.

 

This will be interesting but I have a counter point honor had his own planes unlike odium that didn't prepare for his death he created the stormfather and I think he created/influenced a bloodline of honorable people - kaladin's bloodline his dad is also very honorable but the biggest point I have against that cultivation groomed dalinar into becoming honor is that I think she knew of honor's plan she did know him better than odium did but more over she dalinar fulfilled the purpose she intended for him I think that beacuse he got back all of his memories in "oath bearer" so I think the to overpower odeum's influence

[mark_61]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Could you provide a quote or a chapter?
So sorry I can't seem to find it but this is the quote sorta "oriafo was ment to be built in(old days althkar) but it was Decided it will be in the west twords honor" this is the gist of it 

[mark_61]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Then let me ask a simple question: The Shard of Honor has been splintered. How would he even find the pieces?

It wasn't as far as we know 

[mark_61]

Just now, mark_61 said:
It wasn't as far as we know 
It doesn't make sense for it to be splinters beacuse of the existence of 2 things - stormlight the light of honor, and honor's "portal" through the 3 kingdoms (sorry I don't know the name of the "portal" I read it in a different language)

[ConfusedCow]

I think Dalinar will be forced to kill Adolin (and Navani and Renarin) to save Roshar.  Then he will seize the shards of both Odium and Honor and become War.  In his rage he will seek vengeance against everyone.  Kaladin and Shallan will flee, join the ghostbloods and fall in love.  Jasnah and Wit will go to silverlight to trade their knowledge about anti-investiture for the secret to Adonalsium's rebirth.  Dalinar will reforge the Knights Radiant into an implaccable terrible force, the Knights Defiant . Thus begins the many war.    

[mark_61]

11 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

I think Dalinar will be forced to kill Adolin (and Navani and Renarin) to save Roshar.  Then he will seize the shards of both Odium and Honor and become War.  In his rage he will seek vengeance against everyone.  Kaladin and Shallan will flee, join the ghostbloods and fall in love.  Jasnah and Wit will go to silverlight to trade their knowledge about anti-investiture for the secret to Adonalsium's rebirth.  Dalinar will reforge the Knights Radiant into an implaccable terrible force, the Knights Defiant . Thus begins the many war.    

You're not really thinking this right? There is one reason that Sezth was able to take 2 shards and that's because he could find the balance of distraction and creation but with honor and odium it's simply not possible and if it was it's still a bad theory tbh sry

[alder24]

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

Ok Im new to this and don't know how to directly respond

Just look at my previous post, at the very top there are some useful tips about quoting inside the spoiler box. There is a "Quote" word at the bottom of other people's posts, click it and it will quote that whole post into your response. Or you can use a mouse to highlight a small section of somebody’s post you want to quote - an option “quote this” will appear after you highlight that.  You can respond to multiple people in the same post to avoid double posting, by using the “+” button - this will make a new small window appear at the right bottom side of your browser which says “Quote x posts”, clicking it will paste all quotes into your response. 

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

the parshmen named god isn't odium rather it's "eal" I don't know how to spell his name in my native tongue it directly translates to god

His name is El. He's one of the Fused, but a special one as he was stripped of his title and rhythm for suggesting they should have used humans more. We don't know if he will be Odium's champion.

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

I'm aware of the fact that nale is a sparne due to being a herald

Nale isn't a spren, he is a Cognitive Shadow. They are different. A spren is a sentient piece of investiture, while a Cognitive Shadow is a fossil of a dead person's soul.

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

but I think that there is a significance to the fifth oath beacuse we don't know of anyone other than nale that said it and the one of the stormbreakers is really abstract like becoming the law?

There is a significance, yes, but Radiants of 5th Ideal won't turn into something else. Skybreakers is the name of Nale's order. The words say "I'm the law" but it simply means that "I will decide what's lawful or not".

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

So I think if kaladin will say the fifth oath it'll probably prepare him to being honor.

It might, but spiritually and mentally. We don't know what Windrunners 5th Ideal is, it might not be similar to Skybreakers.

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

And I don't mean kill the stormfather like Mia rather like the spern of teft who died completely and I didn't say that it's something that's bound to happen (the stormfather dieing and syl transcending to his job) but rather something I would enjoy seeing 

That's fair, Stormfather can be killed with the use of anti-Stormlight, it would take a lot of it, and I don't know what would happened to the piece of Honor attached to him, but maybe you could just use enough of it to kill Stormfather's mind, without destroying all of it, leaving a power vacuum that Syl could fill. Posible and interesting. 

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Could you provide a quote or a chapter?
So sorry I can't seem to find it but this is the quote sorta "oriafo was ment to be built in(old days althkar) but it was Decided it will be in the west twords honor" this is the gist of it 

I've found it, WoK ch 35:

Quote

Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.

In the place nearest to Honor. That means that where Urithiru is right now is the place closest to Honor - keep in mind Urithiru was built ages before Honor was Splinter so there is no connection between his "body" and Urithiru's placement.

I think that's because it's right north of the Valley, where Nightwatcher and Cultivation reside, and we know that Honor and Cultivation were romantically involved so people place the Tower close to the Valley, as the Valley was the place "nearest to Honor" meaning most precious to Honor. Shards really don't perceive any physical distance as they are everywhere at once. Shards’ don’t travel.

Spoiler

StormAtlas (paraphrased)

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013)

 

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

It wasn't as far as we know 

20 hours ago, mark_61 said:

It doesn't make sense for it to be splinters beacuse of the existence of 2 things - stormlight the light of honor, and honor's "portal" through the 3 kingdoms (sorry I don't know the name of the "portal" I read it in a different language)

Honor was Splintered. Splintering means that the Shard and its Vessel was killed and the power of the Shard was separated into many pieces. But that power still exists.

Spoiler

CrazyRioter

Was Honor Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

Was Honor Splintered? Ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes, Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone knows their stuff.

Google+ Hangout (April 17, 2012)

That portal is named "perpendicularity". But Perpendicularity wasn't natural; it was summoned by Dalinar, Bondsmith, who has the power to form such a portal. Just because a Shard was Splintered doesn't mean that his power is gone - investiture, like energy, can't be destroyed. It will remain on the planet even if the Shard was Splintered into thousands pieces. Moreover Stormlight is provided by the Stormfather now, who took some of Honor's duties after his death. He can draw investiture from the Spiritual Realm, where most Shardic investiture is located, and pull it into the Physical Realm. 

 

14 hours ago, mark_61 said:

You're not really thinking this right? There is one reason that Sezth was able to take 2 shards and that's because he could find the balance of distraction and creation but with honor and odium it's simply not possible and if it was it's still a bad theory tbh sry

This is a Stormlight Archive subforum only, if you want to talk about other books you have to use a spoiler box (that eye icon at the top of your reply section) and use a proper warning before.

RoW proved that combining the natures of Odium and Honor is possible. Dalinar is strongly Connected to both Honor and Odium (which is very important), and due to his destructive past, he can understand the nature of Odium and need for it. It's possible  to combine Odium and Honor (nothing prevents it from happening) and Dalinar might be able to do that.

[mark_61]

12 hours ago, Salvuxad said:

Your hypothesis about Kaladin becoming Honor in the Stormlight Archive series is quite fascinating and isn't uncommon among fans. The suggestion that Kaladin could potentially ascend to become Honor is a theory backed by several intriguing pieces of evidence throughout the books, as you've noted.

ty

[mark_61]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Just look at my previous post, at the very top there are some useful tips about quoting inside the spoiler box. There is a "Quote" word at the bottom of other people's posts, click it and it will quote that whole post into your response. Or you can use a mouse to highlight a small section of somebody’s post you want to quote - an option “quote this” will appear after you highlight that.  You can respond to multiple people in the same post to avoid double posting, by using the “+” button - this will make a new small window appear at the right bottom side of your browser which says “Quote x posts”, clicking it will paste all quotes into your response. 

His name is El. He's one of the Fused, but a special one as he was stripped of his title and rhythm for suggesting they should have used humans more. We don't know if he will be Odium's champion.

Nale isn't a spren, he is a Cognitive Shadow. They are different. A spren is a sentient piece of investiture, while a Cognitive Shadow is a fossil of a dead person's soul.

There is a significance, yes, but Radiants of 5th Ideal won't turn into something else. Skybreakers is the name of Nale's order. The words say "I'm the law" but it simply means that "I will decide what's lawful or not".

It might, but spiritually and mentally. We don't know what Windrunners 5th Ideal is, it might not be similar to Skybreakers.

That's fair, Stormfather can be killed with the use of anti-Stormlight, it would take a lot of it, and I don't know what would happened to the piece of Honor attached to him, but maybe you could just use enough of it to kill Stormfather's mind, without destroying all of it, leaving a power vacuum that Syl could fill. Posible and interesting. 

I've found it, WoK ch 35:

In the place nearest to Honor. That means that where Urithiru is right now is the place closest to Honor - keep in mind Urithiru was built ages before Honor was Splinter so there is no connection between his "body" and Urithiru's placement.

I think that's because it's right north of the Valley, where Nightwatcher and Cultivation reside, and we know that Honor and Cultivation were romantically involved so people place the Tower close to the Valley, as the Valley was the place "nearest to Honor" meaning most precious to Honor. Shards really don't perceive any physical distance as they are everywhere at once. Shards’ don’t travel.

  Reveal hidden contents

StormAtlas (paraphrased)

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013)

 

Honor was Splintered. Splintering means that the Shard and its Vessel was killed and the power of the Shard was separated into many pieces. But that power still exists.

  Reveal hidden contents

CrazyRioter

Was Honor Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

Was Honor Splintered? Ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes, Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone knows their stuff.

Google+ Hangout (April 17, 2012)

That portal is named "perpendicularity". But Perpendicularity wasn't natural; it was summoned by Dalinar, Bondsmith, who has the power to form such a portal. Just because a Shard was Splintered doesn't mean that his power is gone - investiture, like energy, can't be destroyed. It will remain on the planet even if the Shard was Splintered into thousands pieces. Moreover Stormlight is provided by the Stormfather now, who took some of Honor's duties after his death. He can draw investiture from the Spiritual Realm, where most Shardic investiture is located, and pull it into the Physical Realm. 

 

This is a Stormlight Archive subforum only, if you want to talk about other books you have to use a spoiler box (that eye icon at the top of your reply section) and use a proper warning before.

RoW proved that combining the natures of Odium and Honor is possible. Dalinar is strongly Connected to both Honor and Odium (which is very important), and due to his destructive past, he can understand the nature of Odium and need for it. It's possible  to combine Odium and Honor (nothing prevents it from happening) and Dalinar might be able to do that.

u raise excellent points and this is the actual reason I posted this so people could counter my theory so I could measure it against them I still think it holds marit for multiple reasons reason one is if honor truly is located in the spiritual equivalent of shinobar it makes to me at least still perfect sense because shinobr is the place in which humans settled after the distraction of their other world and a god would want to be in the hearts of his people unfortunately for me I could never meet Brandon but if I could the one question I would have for him is this what is the true meaning of the saying "honor lives in the hearts of his children"  I think the meaning of it is that honor lived in the hearts of men and men lived in shinobar perfect logic to me but another explanation could dictate that it means that the spliinters of honors powor is in the honor spern or even in humnes them, selfes I don't think its the case because throge the course of the cosmire multiple times we are faced with profacic and saying not meaning their liturel words but the spirit of the words but to me this theory is the one and only way to inticapte the end of the story I'm most likely wrong because while I have more evidence then I thot I did the more I read the more conflicting evidence I find so will this happen? most likely not but I will sure as hell enjoy it

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, mark_61 said:

I still think it holds marit for multiple reasons

Oh yeah, I fully agree that Kaladin becoming the Vessel of Honor is a very strong theory. Personally I subscribe to it.

3 minutes ago, mark_61 said:

reason one is if honor truly is located in the spiritual equivalent of shinobar

Well, there is a problem with this idea - the Spiritual Realm is timeless and spaceless - it doesn't really overlap with any location, it's everywhere, anytime, at once. There is no Spiritual equivalent of Shinovar. It kind of just is. Shards are omnipresent.

But that also means that you can Ascend to a Shard from anywhere, as long as you can reach into the Spiritual Realm more than normally. If you can Connect yourself to a Shard, you can Ascend. Kind of. 

7 minutes ago, mark_61 said:

if honor truly is located in the spiritual equivalent of shinobar it makes to me at least still perfect sense because shinobr is the place in which humans settled after the distraction of their other world and a god would want to be in the hearts of his people

Yes, Shinovar is where humans settled, but at this point Honor wasn't their god, Odium was. Honor was a god of Singers. The switch of gods happened a little bit later. And at that time humans were likely already spreading across Roshar.

9 minutes ago, mark_61 said:

unfortunately for me I could never meet Brandon but if I could the one question I would have for him is this what is the true meaning of the saying "honor lives in the hearts of his children"

Yes, that's a good question. Maybe at some point Honor gave a bit of his power into humans, invest them a bit more, similarly to Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

how Preservation gave a little bit more of himself when creating humanity. 

Humans are definitely tied to Roshar and Honor now. Humans also are invested by Honor, they have more innate investiture in them (meaning their soul is expanded) because of Shardic presence on Roshar. A little bit Cosmere spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

 

11 minutes ago, mark_61 said:

but another explanation could dictate that it means that the spliinters of honors powor is in the honor spern or even in humnes them,

Honorspren ARE Splinters of Honor - but they are conscious Splinters, safe Splinters that don't destroy a Shard. Every Spren on Roshar is a Splinter of Honor, Cultivation or Odium or a combination of these three.

 

17 minutes ago, mark_61 said:

so will this happen? most likely not but I will sure as hell enjoy it

It's always fun to theorize and discuss it more. I have fun too  

[mark_61]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Well, there is a problem with this idea - the Spiritual Realm is timeless and spaceless - it doesn't really overlap with any location, it's everywhere, anytime, at once. There is no Spiritual equivalent of Shinovar. It kind of just is. Shards are omnipresent.

But that also means that you can Ascend to a Shard from anywhere, as long as you can reach into the Spiritual Realm more than normally. If you can Connect yourself to a Shard, you can Ascend. Kind of. 

nale says that when a knight says an oath he touches the spiritual realm and about the gods being omnipresent I don't think it's true because we 

Spoiler

cultivation approaching tarvagian as odium meaning they can move around in the spiritual realm

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by mark_61

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

But that also means that you can Ascend to a Shard from anywhere, as long as you can reach into the Spiritual Realm more than normally. If you can Connect yourself to a Shard, you can Ascend. Kind of.

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

The issue with that theory is that the only time we saw somebody ascend it took physical proximity. Also the Ire, who tried, found it necessary to be physically in Scadrial's subastral.

And taking up the Dawnshard required Rysyn to be within a few meters of it. There would be no point in guarding Aimia, if distance did not matter,

[alder24]

6 hours ago, mark_61 said:

nale says that when a knight says an oath he touches the spiritual realm and about the gods being omnipresent I don't think it's true because we 

  Hide contents

cultivation approaching tarvagian as odium meaning they can move around in the spiritual realm

 

It was Ishar who said that, yes, Radiants swearing an Ideal are shortly brought closer to SR then they usually are. RoW ch 111:

Quote

“Dalinar. Dalinar Kholin.”
That … that was Ishar’s voice
“I can see clearly,” the voice said from within the perpendicularity. “I do not know why. Has a Bondsmith been sworn? We have a Connection, all of us.… Nevertheless, I feel my sanity slipping. My mind is broken, and I do not know if it can be healed.
“Perhaps you can restore me for a short time after an Ideal is spoken near me. Everyone sees a little more clearly when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm. For now, listen well. I have the answer, a way to fix the problems that beset us. Come to me in Shinovar. I can reset the Oathpact, though I must be sane to do it. I must … have help … to…”

Shards are omnipresent, their infinite power is omnipresent, but their mind (the Vessel) isn't infinite, the mind is mostly focused in one place. What you see with Cultivation and Odium was their mind focusing in one place. Mistborn spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

About a Shard manifesting a physical body:

Spoiler

Argent

Can Shards manifest a physical body that can actually interact with the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

If they wanted to, yes.

Argent

Was that the thing that Odium did at the end of Oathbringer or was that just a projection?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm, it starts to be really difficult to define when you're getting to these points because they generally are such massive wells of Investiture themselves that it's like, is this thing they're creating, like, they are kinda, y'know, then bending the three Realms around the like spacetime with lots of gravity so is that a projection? Is that a real thing? Does it matter? Does that definition--

Argent

Oh! At that point they are almost the same thing, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, exactly.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

The Spiritual Realm isn't really a place, so Shard traveling or stuff like that doesn't really make sense in the context of the Spiritual Realm. As I've said, the Spiritual Realm is spaceless and timeless. Lots of WoBs for this:

Spoiler

Questioner

In Shadesmar, the solid and liquid phases are inverted. So, in the Spiritual Realm, is it something to do with solid and gas phases, or is it not the same at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not quite where you're going, but I like the way you're thinking.

Questioner

So then what's the reason that they can't travel to the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The Spiritual Realm is not a place.

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

 

Spoiler

[Mistborn spoilers out]

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Remember that on the Spiritual Realm, this is the big tidbit--they're listening. On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Well you answered my question about Allomancers being able to burn metals in other realms. Is that because the Shards are sort of…  My impression from the book was that the Shards were, in the Mistborn books, specifically in that area but is it because the universe is formed across all of them that that is why the metals...

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the magics are not region-dependent, because the Spiritual Realm-- in the Spiritual Realm space doesn’t exist.  All things are the same distance from one another.

[Mistborn spoilers out]

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Argent

Which is a nice segue to Shards Investing into Shardworlds, that I've been meaning to ask. So is it kind of a passive-- The more a Shard stays on a world--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--the Investiture kind of seeps--

Brandon Sanderson

It does. Once you've got a Perpendicularity, you are starting-- That's trouble for going other places. But you've gotta remember, going other places means multiple things to someone actually holding a Shard. They can exist in the Spiritual Realm, where all things are one. And they can even kind of comprehend it...

Argent

Can a Shard choose to just instantly invest in a place?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they just need to start making some stuff.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

 

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

(Scadrial)

  Hide contents

The issue with that theory is that the only time we saw somebody ascend it took physical proximity. Also the Ire, who tried, found it necessary to be physically in Scadrial's subastral.

And taking up the Dawnshard required Rysyn to be within a few meters of it. There would be no point in guarding Aimia, if distance did not matter,

Dawnshards aren't Shards, they exist only in one place, they aren't omnipresent.

Mistborn:

Spoiler

In every instance of Ascension in Mistborn series, it was required for them to "touch" the power - Vin in the Well and with Mists, Kelseir with whatever Leras did in SH, Sazed touching the power through bodies of previous Vessels (tbf why was the power o Shards still manifesting in their bodies?). A presence of a Shard's mind creates a region where investiture of that Shard is more concentrated, thus it's "easier to reach it".

I didn't want to suggest that you can Ascend to Honor from Scadrial (maybe you can but that probably would be really, really hard), but you probably can do that from anywhere on Roshar, as long as you have proper Connection and can touch Honor's power in a more direct way.

 

[bmcclure7]

On 10/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, alder24 said:

You can simply quote the post by clicking the "quote" option at the bottom of a post. More tips:

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t the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link, and (your posts only) and Edit link. On the bottom right you will see an up arrow.

• The Up Arrow is how you thank people or "like" a post
• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
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  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote" button that pops up.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
  • For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down)  and move the quote to before the empty line. . .
• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
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• Next to Edit you will also find an "options" dropbox, you can use this to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting
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  • Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained.

Hope that helps.

 

 

Could you provide a quote or a chapter?

Shinovar has Highstorms, but because it's so far east, Highstorms have to pass through several mountain ranges, which weakens them severely by the time they get to Shinovar. 

Shins have Honorblades because they've picked them up during Aharietiam, after Heralds left them. Honor was still alive at that time.

Honor is a Shard, Shards exist primarily in the Spiritual Realm, not in the Physical Realm. There is no body of Honor in the Physical Realm (that would be very noticeable and potentially dangerous). Shards investiture in the Physical Realm manifests as either gas (Stormlight), liquid (Perpendicularity) or solid (god metal) - we have gaseous form of Honor's investiture as a Stormlight, which existed pre-Splintering. Roshar doesn't have a stable Perpendicularity of Honor, so no liquid investiture, and solid investiture - Tanavastium - is in form of Honorblades and alloyed with Cultivation's god metal to create Shardblades. There is enough of Stormlight, spren and other forms of Honor’s investiture on Roshar to provide some kind of relief valve for Honor’s raw, splintered investiture not to go crazy and dangerous in the Physical Realm. There is no Honor’s body in the Physical Realm. It's all in the Spiritual Realm, attached mostly to the Stormfather, who is Honor's Cognitive Shadow.

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sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

[spoilers out]

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

 

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Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Honorblades are different from Honor-Shard - they were given to Heralds long before Honor was Splintered. Honor is Splintered, his pieces are separated in SR, and the biggest piece of Honor is merged with the Stormfather.

Yup, there is a reason why Kaladin is called "Child of Tanavast". Correction, Tanavast is the name of the Shardholder of the Shard of Honor, the Vessel of Honor. Honor's real name is still Honor, but its Vessel's name was Tanavast.

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Winds Alight (paraphrased)

In SA the Stormfather refers to several people as "Child of Honor", but only Kaladin as "Child of Tanavast". Is there significance to that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, there is.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Overall, yes, it's very likely that Kaladin will become the new Vessel of the Shard of Honor, because of the reasons you've pointed out. Good job.

 

 

Highspren would disagree:

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[...]

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

This is not because he swore the 5th Ideal, this is because he is a Herald, a Cognitive Shadow, who in some way are similar to Spren. But Nale bonded with a Highspren long after he became a Herald. Many other Radiants swore 5th Ideal after formation of the Knights Radiant and that didn't change them into Spren or something.

Alright, this was wild. Who is this "parsnaby" (Parshman?) known as god? Odium? Odium is a Shard, he won't fight Dalinar directly, his champion will. We don't know who that is. And what do you mean by "kill the Stormfather"? Turn him into a deadeye? That might be reversible, as Maya and Adolin showed. Splinter him and destroy him completely? That's possible only if Odium were to be freed out of Honor's restrictions (which might happen, but if Odium were to be freed and he were to kill Stormfather, then he would Splinter the biggest piece of Honor into tiny pieces and any reformation of Honor would be almost impossible at that point - Kaladin wouldn't be able to Ascend to Honor). Shard of Honor could possibly reinvest other spren to the level of the Stormfather but that was a wild theory. Interesting but wild.

Syl can exist without Kaladin just fine, she will find a new person to bond with. If Kaladin were to Ascend to Honor, Syl's bond with him would likely end without making her a deadeye.

Not only Syl is the daughter of the Stormfather. He created 2 generations of Honorspren, one of which was turned into deadeye during Recreance. 

I think "god" refers to el. el means god in Hebrew.