Hemalurgic Combat Combos

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

We see F-Zinc in Era 1 and Era 2, it is basically bullet time. And sure there will be other effects, like intuitive leaps etc, but the core is you think and perceive faster, you just cannot move and react at that speed.

So if they are complementary, then F-steel lets you move and react fast, but you cannot consciously think or perceive that fast. E.g. you could instinctively catch an arrow or bullet, but you would not consciously notice it until you already caught it.

The WoB literally said that they overlap when it comes to the bullet time. F-steel gives you faster perception as well as physical speed, so you can keep up to your speed and react to it.

In HoA ch 80, Sazed used only Steelmind, grabbed his sack, searched for two specific metalminds, put them on and moved to close the gates - he made conscious to pick specific metalminds after he saw them while using Steelmind. It's impossible to do that without perceiving as fast as you move.

Quote

Sazed didn't pause to think further. He reached into his pocket, grabbed the steel lock, and tapped it. He rushed through the corridor on inhumanly quick feet, snatching his sack from the ground as kandra began to cry out.
Sazed snapped open the sack, and found a collection of bracelets, rings, and bracers inside. He dumped them out, spilling the precious metalminds to the floor and grabbed two particular ones. Then, still moving at blurring speed, he dashed to the side.
His steelmind ran out. One of the rings he'd grabbed was pewter. He tapped it for strength, growing in size and bulk. Then, he slammed the doors to the Trustwarren closed, causing those now trapped inside to cry out in shock. Finally, he tapped the other ring—this one iron. He grew several times heavier, making himself into a doorstop, holding the massive metal doors to the Trustwarren closed.

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

15 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Yeah I mostly meant if the battle was between 2 players with 3 spikes each. If I can keep my 3rd spike and then I would probably toss in a emotional allomantic ability. The reason I was going to give it up was so I could use the speed to blitz an opponent who also had 3 spikes and slam them with the 4th one before trying to grab hold.  

Ah, that makes more sense now.

A "misplaced" power spike on an opponent would prevent them from getting any powers out of it (if you don't plan on controlling them or just don't want them to possibly overpower you), cause them great distracting pain, and crack open their Spiritweb to your control.

Using an attribute spike on your opponent could also be used to mutate them into a form that is either unable to harm you or is so unstable that they die from it. Powerful stuff, especially since there's a good chance that Invested healing (F-gold) would only make the issue worse by more quickly matching their Physical Aspect to their new Spiritual Ideal.

15 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Lets make a pacifist character who wins by not fighting. At all.  F-Duralumin A-Brass A-Copper.  The master manipulator who can keep their head down in even the most chaotic battlefields.  If emotional allomancy and duralumin allow Marsh to walk around unseen then tossing on a copper cloud with it must be better. Live a peaceful life pulling the strings of unsuspecting puppets everywhere.  (Have I ever mentioned Breeze is my favorite Scadrian this far?  Wayne is close behind but Breeze is so smooth in how he operates I LOVE it!) 

Thinking way outside the box there, but I like it  

10 hours ago, Njvodin said:

Ooh this one is fun

My first two choices are A-Duralumin and F-Nicrosil. This is, in my opinion, a really easy way to supercharge any of the metals. Allomantic duralumin speaks for itself, so I'll explain F-Nicrosil a bit more. If you store Investiture for whatever 3rd metal you want (allomantic is easiest, so say A-Steel), and then in one burst use all of it, while simultaneously using duralumin, then use A-Steel to do a super-super-Push. If you focus it all on a little coin or something, it could surely go so fast it kills in one shot, but that's kinda boring. 

I'd personally use it to Push the other contestant away. It'd be funny, plus it could seriously damage them.

But I also think there's too much protection for physical damage. Why not use A-Zinc or A-Brass to absolutely shatter someone's mind? We know that a duralumin powered Soothe or Riot can make peoples minds go blank for a hot second, but an even more supercharged (twin-charged?) Soothe/Riot would destroy them, knock them unconscious, even. The problem with facing someone like this is that you can't actually protect yourself, unless you're compounding copper, or maybe if you had an aluminium hat, but I'm gonna pretend that the opposition doesn't have one of these.

You could do a lot of things, like twin-charge pewter punch someone, and absolutely decimate them, or twin-charge aluminium to REALLY make sure you get rid of all the metal in your body. Or, electrum, and find out what you could be doing instead of wasting time twin-charging a useless ability. 

If you could figure out how to use duralumin on feruchemical powers, then this also opens some possibilities, such as running across to the opponent with F-Steel at like Mach 5, or F-Cadmium, whatever the heck that does for you. Maybe you just start hyperventilating and the opponent freaks out and runs away.

But seriously, it sounds like it could be pretty fun to toy with.

So basically, using two separate enhancement metals to make a single Allomantic power unmatched in raw power? I'd say that's a pretty powerful tactic. Supercharged A-pewter would probably be the best I'd say, since you'd be stronger, tougher, more dexterous, and quicker than almost all your opponents.

Spoiler

15 hours ago, ..... said:

I thought of another one like someone with aon dor and then spike them with the knowledge and skill to use it but like you did really well instead of just average  I don't know what the aon dor Spike would be made out of but you could do the skills spike and knowledge Spike with copper and then boom instant aon dor Master which can do basically anything according to Brandon so that's really powerful 

This is an interesting one, though this is also in the Mistborn Forum, so I think it would be best to either keep the ideas solely on Mistborn only Investitures or put them in Spoiler boxes (you should probably edit your post so that it's in a spoiler box as well).

As for spiking knowledge from someone, I think that a duralumin spike taking Connection (specifically Connection tied to their past and muscle-memory) could take the Elantrian's skill, but not the analyitical know-how. 

To get their actual knowledge you'd have to go for memories themselves, which you could do by going through a whole convoluted process; you use Hemalurgy to grant them F-copper and F-aluminum, give them some extra spikes to open them up to direct control, control them and force them to Blank their Identity while storing their memories of all AonDor techniques, then you take the F-copper granting spike and give it to yourself so you can tap the memories.

A copper spike wouldn't give you the memories themselves most likely, as those are tied more to the Cognitive Aspect than the Spiritual. When the Hemalurgy table says copper steals memory, I believe it means it takes the ability to have better memory, such as TenSoon having a sharper memory than normal (which we see in HoA).

 

13 hours ago, ..... said:

new one brains of an AI with copper spike strength of its really strong robot body with iron spike and f-gold

cant find wob for the computer stuff but Ive seen it before 

Edit: found it :

NeedsAdjustment

You've said before that if a sentient computer were developed, it would call a soul into itself. Could it be Hemalurgically spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes, but I have no idea yet how the logistics of that would work.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 5, 2016)

This could probably work (and would be very powerful) but you'd need very advanced knowledge of Hemalurgic Bindpoints- TLR had his servants experiment for an entire millenium and still didn't find any new useful constructs.

Plus, you'd also turn yourself into a Hemalurgic construct in the process unless you were a Kandra or found a way to crack the system somehow (which is something I'd like to know very much).

Also, you'd need an advanced AI to spike, which is far beyond anything we've seen on Scadrial as era 2.

Still an interesting idea in my opinion though, using attribute spikes instead of power spikes.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Yeah I mostly meant if the battle was between 2 players with 3 spikes each. If I can keep my 3rd spike and then I would probably toss in a emotional allomantic ability. The reason I was going to give it up was so I could use the speed to blitz an opponent who also had 3 spikes and slam them with the 4th one before trying to grab hold.  

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah, that makes more sense now.

A "misplaced" power spike on an opponent would prevent them from getting any powers out of it (if you don't plan on controlling them or just don't want them to possibly overpower you), cause them great distracting pain, and crack open their Spiritweb to your control.

Using an attribute spike on your opponent could also be used to mutate them into a form that is either unable to harm you or is so unstable that they die from it. Powerful stuff, especially since there's a good chance that Invested healing (F-gold) would only make the issue worse by more quickly matching their Physical Aspect to their new Spiritual Ideal.

If you want to spike someone, just use an aluminum spike and remove all their powers. I wonder if such an aluminum spike, that was jabbed into someone who already had 3 spikes, would open them to Hemalurgic control or would aluminum interfere with that too? 

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

If you want to spike someone, just use an aluminum spike and remove all their powers. I wonder if such an aluminum spike, that was jabbed into someone who already had 3 spikes, would open them to Hemalurgic control or would aluminum interfere with that too? 

You know, I'm not sure that H-aluminum can target other Hemalurgically endowed powers, since they are not actually part of the Spiritweb of the target.

I suppose that knowing whether you could spike an attribute or power grafted on by Hemalurgy or not would answer this question, though as of right now I'm guessing it doesn't work that way.

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

You know, I'm not sure that H-aluminum can target other Hemalurgically endowed powers, since they are not actually part of the Spiritweb of the target.

All powers is all powers  

I'm not seeing aluminum spikes working by stealing something, but placing it in a person would cause disruptions in the spirit web, preventing the use of all invested arts. The other option is that as the spike is passing through a spirit web, it erases all invested arts from it, without getting charged..

[Trusk'our he/him]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm not seeing aluminum spikes working by stealing something, but placing it in a person would cause disruptions in the spirit web, preventing the use of all invested arts. The other option is that as the spike is passing through a spirit web, it erases all invested arts from it, without getting charged..

I personally feel that it's the last of the examples you gave, since that lines up with what all other Hemalurgy does. It would just be that aluminum is unable to hold that charge, so it is lost.

I understand that we don't really know for sure how it works as of right now, but this seems the most logical to me.

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

All powers is all powers  

Counterpoint, Medallion powers are more restrictive than natural Metalborn powers and Hemalurgic spikes have weird Identity and Spiritweb ramifications attached to their use. Therefore, not all powers is all powers 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Counterpoint, Medallion powers are more restrictive than natural Metalborn powers and Hemalurgic spikes have weird Identity and Spiritweb ramifications attached to their use. Therefore, not all powers is all powers 

Good point with medallions (if you spike a medallion then maybe you would remove all of its powers  ) but a spike is hotwired into your soul. It's connected. And if you think that you can store a power gained from spikes in F-nicrosil, then you can remove those powers via H-aluminum. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by alder24

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

The WoB literally said that they overlap when it comes to the bullet time. F-steel gives you faster perception as well as physical speed, so you can keep up to your speed and react to it.

"Kind of overlap", not exactly overlap. F-Zinc does not grant you faster reaction speed for example as WoB says, but lets you perceive and think faster.

Again, why would F-steel do 90% of what F-Zinc does (so far we have not really seen any intuitive leaps using F-Zinc, so most use it to just speed up thinking and perception), and grant inhuman speed and improved reaction time on top of that?

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

In HoA ch 80, Sazed used only Steelmind, grabbed his sack, searched for two specific metalminds, put them on and moved to close the gates - he made conscious to pick specific metalminds after he saw them while using Steelmind. It's impossible to do that without perceiving as fast as you move.

Not true. If Sazed was tapping at only e.g. 2-3x rate, he could keep up even if his mental processes were not sped up. He would have to be more careful though.
And he did not search for them, he dumped everything on the floor and picked up what he needed. He knows all of those metalminds he probably had them for years if not decades, recognizing which ones he needs won't exactly take a long time anyway.

Edited October 11, 2023 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

but a spike is hotwired into your soul. It's connected. And if you think that you can store a power gained from spikes in F-nicrosil, then you can remove those powers via H-aluminum. 

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. Alright, you have convinced me (for now ); an aluminum spike can remove/destroy Hemalurgically granted powers.

The interesting thing is that would mean that you should be able to spike a person's Spiritweb and take from their other spikes as well, perhaps allowing you to combine the Investiture of the Donor and the spike they were bearing (though Identity contamination would still be a problem).

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Good point with medallions (if you spike a medallion then maybe you would remove all of its powers  )

It sounds like you're saying that in jest, but you know, that might actually be possible, or at least close to possible; we know that an AI that is advanced enough can act as a Hemalurgic donor (see @.....'s earlier WoB) and that medallions have more of an Identity/"life force" than other Metalminds (WoB).

Perhaps with a little advancement (and maybe some rubber parts to be physically capable of being spiked?) you could spike a medallion or Harmonium-fueled device and use that as a method to make truly non-harmful (for human donors, anyway) spikes.

Maybe you could also combine multiple powers into a spike more easily, because as far as I know a medallion would have only one Identity and therefore the powers could be combined into a single spike. . . though, at that point the medallions may be superior in most ways to spikes and the process of using medallions to make the spikes would prove redundant.

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

"Kind of overlap", not exactly overlap. F-Zinc does not grant you faster reaction speed for example as WoB says, but lets you perceive and think faster.

Again, why would F-steel do 90% of what F-Zinc does (so far we have not really seen any intuitive leaps using F-Zinc, so most use it to just speed up thinking and perception), and grant inhuman speed and improved reaction time on top of that?

If the WoB didn't convince you, then I won't do that. I don't see those 90% you're talking about. And we saw an intuitive leap - Wax in BoM...

And why would it do that? Because Feruchemy works like that. Because this is the effect of your spirit web adapting to sudden increase in attribute and making you capable of actually using it. Without that you wouldn't be able to use Feruchemy in many cases. That's just how it works and that was explained in a WoB I gave you. F-steel needs you to perceive the world around with sufficient speed so you can actually keep up with your legs - just like F-iron requires an increase in your muscle and bone strength for your body to uphold the increase in mass, and not break when you become as heavy as building - this is a serious overlap with F-pewter and yet it exists. All of those abilities have to work alone.

22 minutes ago, therunner said:

Not true. If Sazed was tapping at only e.g. 2-3x rate

Yes, because "inhumanly quick" and "at blurring speed" is definitely the sign of "only" 2-3x rate...

24 minutes ago, therunner said:

And he did not search for them, he dumped everything on the floor and picked up what he needed. He knows all of those metalminds he probably had them for years if not decades, recognizing which ones he needs won't exactly take a long time anyway.

Throwing dozens of metalminds on the ground and selecting only 2 of them is searching. 

 

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

It sounds like you're saying that in jest, but you know, that might actually be possible, or at least close to possible; we know that an AI that is advanced enough can act as a Hemalurgic donor (see @.....'s earlier WoB) and that medallions have more of an Identity/"life force" than other Metalminds (WoB).

I suspect medallions wouldn't count as alive yet, they aren't AI, and probably they are something more like a plant, which can't be spiked. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I suspect medallions wouldn't count as alive yet, they aren't AI, and probably they are something more like a plant, which can't be spiked. 

Yeah, they'd need to be a little more advanced than they are currently, but I don't think that it would have to be that significant. After all, animals can be spiked Hemalurgically (WoB), so the medallions would have to have a spiritual complexity comparable to that of a simple animal.

Oh, and if you could spike a medallion you could probably stack multiple charges into a single spike (I imagine it would be easier to deal with a machine's Identity than that of a human, or you could "heal" said machine and then spike them repeatedly). This would be of particular interest if F-nicrosil cannot yield greater Invested power than what the Allomancer or Feruchemist stored in it to begin with.

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

If the WoB didn't convince you, then I won't do that. I don't see those 90% you're talking about. And we saw an intuitive leap - Wax in BoM...

What intuitive leap did Wax in BoM did? I don't recall anything of the sort.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

And why would it do that? Because Feruchemy works like that. Because this is the effect of your spirit web adapting to sudden increase in attribute and making you capable of actually using it. Without that you wouldn't be able to use Feruchemy in many cases. That's just how it works and that was explained in a WoB I gave you. F-steel needs you to perceive the world around with sufficient speed so you can actually keep up with your legs - just like F-iron requires an increase in your muscle and bone strength for your body to uphold the increase in mass, and not break when you become as heavy as building - this is a serious overlap with F-pewter and yet it exists. All of those abilities have to work alone.

Yes, you need to be capable of using or more like, surviving it, but the 'adaption' does not work the same way as increased attribute.

F-Iron increases your muscle and bone strength so that you don't crush yourself, and yet Iron Ferrings are no more resistant to damage (that is not from their own body or gravity), nor can they hit with supernatural strength, which is what those adaptation should let them do.
F-Iron users are not actually physically stronger when tapping weight, otherwise Wax would be incredible brawler and would easily defeat Miles on top of the train. (just grab Miles and tap weight to increase his strength). The strength F-Iron user gets only lets them resists effects of the weight on their body, and even that is limited (e.g. Sazed describes how "his hands feel like balls of iron on lead arms" in WoA). So clearly the strength enhancement is both limited in what it actually does, and far smaller than the weight enhancement.

So the 'adaption' to the power is severely limited in what it actually does, does not necessarily work as you would expect it and is smaller in magnitude than the attribute increase.

Similarly F-Steel does not actually need you to perceive the world around you as fast as you move on conscious level to survive it or use it, improved reflexes are sufficient for that. Dodging objects is purely reflexive reaction, you don't think about the movement. In fact, even IRL human thought is too slow when reactions to physical danger/conditions are needed.
In the fight in WoA, Sazed specifically taps F-Zinc when he needs to perceive and think fast, and taps F-Steel when he needs to move or react fast. Or he is tapping both at once.

Also, if F-steel sped up down perception so much that it would be comparable to F-Zinc, why would Feruchemists label it as 'Physical speed' and not something more accurate?

I would be rather careful in what we extrapolate Feruchemy can do, because it often does not work very intuitively once you thinking about 'required secondary powers'.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, because "inhumanly quick" and "at blurring speed" is definitely the sign of "only" 2-3x rate...

Moving 2-3x as fast as the fastest human is literally inhumanly quick. Sazed covered 20 feet (6 meters) in time it took KenPaar to start cry out alarm. If we take Ruin-possessed KenPaar as having human reaction time, that means Sazed covered 6 meters in 0.25 seconds, that is he moved average of 24 meters per second.

Blurring speed is well, vague at best. Human eye can at best kinda sorta track things on ~0.02 second time scale. So if Sazed can move ~0.5 meters in less than 0.02 seconds, that counts as blurring speed (when perceived from the side). That is just 25 m/s.

So both of the things he has done in that scene are within scope of Sazed tapping at around 3x rate.

And since while tapping he spilled those metalminds on the ground and did not have to wait for them to fall, he could not have been too sped up. If he dropped them from 1 meter, they would take 0.44 seconds to fall. If he was tapping at e.g. 15x fold increase he would have to wait subjective ~7 seconds for them to fall on the ground. He never mentions anything like that. But if he was tapping at 3x rate, they would fall in subjective 1.3 seconds.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Throwing dozens of metalminds on the ground and selecting only 2 of them is searching. 

In a sense yes. But it is very different from having to rummage through a pack. In this case all he had to do is look down and pick up what he needs.

Edited October 12, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

What intuitive leap did Wax in BoM did? I don't recall anything of the sort.

What Wax did with the Bands. What do you consider "intuitive leap" to be?

3 hours ago, therunner said:

So clearly the strength enhancement is both limited in what it actually does, and far smaller than the weight enhancement.

Which is the same thing with F-steel - your mind only works faster to allow you to move at those speeds, not to actually allow you to think faster like F-zinc. The only thing F-steel does is allow your senses to keep up with your speed, not to actually think, calculate and analyze situations like F-zinc.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Dodging objects is purely reflexive reaction, you don't think about the movement.

Grabbing specific objects from the pile of different objects is not. This is clearly not the case with F-steel.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

In the fight in WoA, Sazed specifically taps F-Zinc when he needs to perceive and think fast, and taps F-Steel when he needs to move or react fast. Or he is tapping both at once.

Wrong, he was tapping zinc only when he tapped steel for the first time, during his second time Sazed wasn't tapping zinc. When Sazed tried to remove Marsh's linchpin he wasn't tapping zinc, but it's even unclear if Sazed was still tapping zinc when he tapped steel for the first time - the book doesn't always says when he stopped tapping his metalminds (after the first burst of F-steel it wasn't said that he stopped tapping it and the next mention of F-steel was in the second quoted part when he started to tap it again). WoA ch 58:

Quote

Sazed tapped zinc. [...]
That had always seemed morbid to Sazed. Now, he saw how useful it could be. His thoughts sped up, and he quickly saw the trajectory of the lamp. Marsh would be able to use it as a weapon against him. So Sazed tapped steel. [...]
Steel stored physical speed. Sazed zipped across the room, air rushing in his ears as he shot past the open doorway. He snatched the lamp out of the air, then tapped iron hard—increasing his weight manyfold—and tapped pewter to give himself massive strength.

[...]

With a flash of power, Sazed released his ironmind and instead tapped steel, increasing his speed again. He dropped the lamp, ducking to the side, moving more quickly than Marsh could track. The lamp was forced backward, but then fell to the ground as Marsh let go of his Push, jumping forward, obviously trying to keep from being trapped against the wall.
But Sazed was faster. He spun, raising a hand to try to pull out Marsh's linchpin spike—the one in between his shoulder blades, pounded down lengthwise into the back. Pulling this one spike would kill an Inquisitor; it was the weakness the Lord Ruler had built into them.
Sazed skidded around Marsh to attack from behind. The spike in Marsh's right eye protruded several extra inches out the back of his skull, and it dribbled blood.
Sazed's steelmind ran out.

[...]

Marsh stepped forward, and Sazed coughed, trying to get his bruised body to move. He worried that he'd rebroken his arm. He tapped zinc again, speeding up his thoughts, but that didn't help his body move. He could only watch—more fully aware of his predicament and unable to do a thing to stop it—as Marsh picked up the fallen lamp.

Even look at the second part, where Sazed was "moving more quickly than Marsh could track" - he wasn't tapping F-zinc anymore, and if Marsh couldn't track him, then Sazed's eyes would not be able to accurately perceive the world - his mind and perception had to be sped up at least a bit to keep up with that speed and spin around jumping Marsh.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Also, if F-steel sped up down perception so much that it would be comparable to F-Zinc, why would Feruchemists label it as 'Physical speed' and not something more accurate?

I've never said it speeds up perception up to the level of F-zinc, only to levels which would allow you to keep up with your physical speed. You can simply move with any speed without worrying that you trip on some rock, run into a pole or not be able to grab something that's just laying on the ground. Per WoB, some of the power of F-steel is siphoned and used to increase your temporal abilities. So yes, it is a physical speed as this increase in perception is almost useless for anything other than moving. Again, this WoB:

Spoiler

Calderis

I recently got the opportunity to ask you a question about Feruchemical steel and if it was a temporal effect and you told me to define that better. When tapping steel, the mind of the Feruchemist is sped up and physics affects their actions normally. When storing, their mind is not slowed and the effect seems tortuously difficult to amass. Storing generally seems to be the more dangerous/difficult option in Feruchemy, so does [Feruchemical steel] alter a person's personal relationship to the flow of time, with the disconnect between the Physical and Cognitive as a drawback of storing?

Brandon Sanderson

I see what you're asking. The mind-altering effects of [Feruchemical steel] are similar to the slight strength you gain from [Feruchemical iron]--it is your Spiritual nature adapting to the new influx of an attribute that it's not really expecting, and siphoning some of that investiture to make you capable of actually using it. So there is a slight temporal effect here, but nothing as big as I think you're looking for.

Footnote: This question is a follow-up to this question.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018)

Another WoB, with just F-steel you can move faster than A-Atium Seer's mind can perceive you and their muscles react to you. You HAVE TO perceive the world faster to be able to do that.

Spoiler

Questioner

If you were a Twinborn with both steel, would you be able to move faster than people could use atium to see what you were going to do?

Brandon Sanderson

So you couldn't move faster than their atium, but you could move potentially faster than their mind's ability to process what they're seeing. You might be able to-- but the atium does lend a certain ability of natural reaction, but you are still limited by your muscles, and things like that. So I think you could probably beat atium that way. That would be a valid way.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Moving 2-3x as fast as the fastest human is literally inhumanly quick.

Sazed is nowhere near moving as fast as the fastest human without any magical enhancements, why do you assume Sazed, a servant/priest/bookworm would be at the peak of human athletics? An average human moving 2-3 times faster would be just as fast as Usain Bolt in a 100m race. JUST. And Sazed physics might be below average, but let's assume average. And even he isn't near enough for "blurring speed".

4 hours ago, therunner said:

In a sense yes. But it is very different from having to rummage through a pack. In this case all he had to do is look down and pick up what he needs.

Which requires having a conscious choice.

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

What Wax did with the Bands. What do you consider "intuitive leap" to be?

All Wax did was 'think through dozen scenarios', nowhere does he have 'heureka' moment where he suddenly jumps to non-trivial solution to his problem.
He just thinks fast to go through various possibilities and to consider character of his uncle.

What part of that is 'intuitive leap' to you? (Just to ensure, I am genuinely curious and this question is not intended in a hostile manner)

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Which is the same thing with F-steel - your mind only works faster to allow you to move at those speeds, not to actually allow you to think faster like F-zinc. The only thing F-steel does is allow your senses to keep up with your speed, not to actually think, calculate and analyze situations like F-zinc.

So, F-steel lets you perceive faster, but not think faster to process that information consciously? If that is your position than I guess I agree.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Grabbing specific objects from the pile of different objects is not. This is clearly not the case with F-steel.

And as I established he was not moving that fast, at around 3x peak human rate. At that point you don't really need to speed up your consciousness it keeps up just fine, like when you are driving a car.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Wrong, he was tapping zinc only when he tapped steel for the first time, during his second time Sazed wasn't tapping zinc.

How is it wrong? I literally said that he taps F-zinc to speed up thought (he does), and F-steel to move fast (he does), and in one instance he taps both (fight with Marsh).

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

When Sazed tried to remove Marsh's linchpin he wasn't tapping zinc, but it's even unclear if Sazed was still tapping zinc when he tapped steel for the first time - the book doesn't always says when he stopped tapping his metalminds (after the first burst of F-steel it wasn't said that he stopped tapping it and the next mention of F-steel was in the second quoted part when he started to tap it again).

It seems to me that he continued tapping F-zinc, but it is ambiguous.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Even look at the second part, where Sazed was "moving more quickly than Marsh could track" - he wasn't tapping F-zinc anymore, and if Marsh couldn't track him, then Sazed's eyes would not be able to accurately perceive the world - his mind and perception had to be sped up at least a bit to keep up with that speed and spin around jumping Marsh.

But the ambiguity works both ways, if he continued tapping F-zinc, then his perception would be sped up even when taps F-steel.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

I've never said it speeds up perception up to the level of F-zinc, only to levels which would allow you to keep up with your physical speed. You can simply move with any speed without worrying that you trip on some rock, run into a pole or not be able to grab something that's just laying on the ground.

But what level is that? In an open field you can move at ~100 m/s without worry with no need to speed up perception.
Inside a building with lot of turns, you would need to speed up your perception, reflexes and thought process to basically the same level as the speed you are moving.
 

That is a problem, because what level of perception/thought speed is needed to keep up depends entirely on the situation.

To not trip on a rock, or run into pole or grab something you need just to perceive it and have good reflexes, you don't need to consciously think about it (in fact you should not even try, consciousness is too slow for that).

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

 Per WoB, some of the power of F-steel is siphoned and used to increase your temporal abilities. So yes, it is a physical speed as this increase in perception is almost useless for anything other than moving. Again, this WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Calderis

I recently got the opportunity to ask you a question about Feruchemical steel and if it was a temporal effect and you told me to define that better. When tapping steel, the mind of the Feruchemist is sped up and physics affects their actions normally. When storing, their mind is not slowed and the effect seems tortuously difficult to amass. Storing generally seems to be the more dangerous/difficult option in Feruchemy, so does [Feruchemical steel] alter a person's personal relationship to the flow of time, with the disconnect between the Physical and Cognitive as a drawback of storing?

Brandon Sanderson

I see what you're asking. The mind-altering effects of [Feruchemical steel] are similar to the slight strength you gain from [Feruchemical iron]--it is your Spiritual nature adapting to the new influx of an attribute that it's not really expecting, and siphoning some of that investiture to make you capable of actually using it. So there is a slight temporal effect here, but nothing as big as I think you're looking for.

Footnote: This question is a follow-up to this question.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018)

 

Then if it is so slight, it is basically useless. And as mentioned, it is a slight increase, so what is that?
For every 8x increase in speed you get 100% perception speed? That would be broadly in line with bare minimum strength needed for F-Iron.

But again, those additional abilities are not straight up increase in some attribute, they have more limitations as we see with F-Iron, there 'F-Iron strength' is not the same as general physical strength and in fact cannot be leveraged as such (i.e. Wax cannot hold Miles in chokehold using it).

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Another WoB, with just F-steel you can move faster than A-Atium Seer's mind can perceive you and their muscles react to you. You HAVE TO perceive the world faster to be able to do that.

  Hide contents

Questioner

If you were a Twinborn with both steel, would you be able to move faster than people could use atium to see what you were going to do?

Brandon Sanderson

So you couldn't move faster than their atium, but you could move potentially faster than their mind's ability to process what they're seeing. You might be able to-- but the atium does lend a certain ability of natural reaction, but you are still limited by your muscles, and things like that. So I think you could probably beat atium that way. That would be a valid way.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

The WoB says two things:

1. Compounder might be able to move faster than atium user can process what they are seeing. (bolded text)
2. Atium user is limited by their muscles and things like that. (italics)

So all Compounder has to do is move faster than Atium user can react because of their muscle speed, i.e. move fast enough that even that ~1.5 seconds heads up of Atium user is useless.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Sazed is nowhere near moving as fast as the fastest human without any magical enhancements, why do you assume Sazed, a servant/priest/bookworm would be at the peak of human athletics? An average human moving 2-3 times faster would be just as fast as Usain Bolt in a 100m race. JUST. And Sazed physics might be below average, but let's assume average. And even he isn't near enough for "blurring speed".

Usain Bolt had peak speed at 44.72 km/h (which is also with equipment designed to maximize his speed and synthetic track made for that purpose, which can add up to 4 km/h), average male can reach peak of ~32 km/h . So average human moving 1.4x faster would should beat Usain Bolt in 100m race, possibly 1.3x would be sufficient if both had the same equipment (or lack of).

So all right then, Sazed is moving 4x times as fast as usual, I am sure Sazed can move at ~6 m/s, that is not that fast. Still it is not fast enough that you could not act and react based on your baseline perceptions.

And yes, 24 m/s can be blurring speed, as I have demonstrated in the previous post based on human eye biology.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Which requires having a conscious choice.

Previously in your reply you stated that F-steel

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The only thing F-steel does is allow your senses to keep up with your speed, not to actually think, calculate and analyze situations like F-zinc.

does not allow you to think, i.e. make conscious decisions, so which is it?

Edited October 12, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

42 minutes ago, therunner said:

All Wax did was 'think through dozen scenarios', nowhere does he have 'heureka' moment where he suddenly jumps to non-trivial solution to his problem.
He just thinks fast to go through various possibilities and to consider character of his uncle.

What part of that is 'intuitive leap' to you? (Just to ensure, I am genuinely curious and this question is not intended in a hostile manner)

For me it's reaching a conclusion based on a very limited amount of data - and reading Wax's thoughts again, it somewhat fits. 

49 minutes ago, therunner said:

So, F-steel lets you perceive faster, but not think faster to process that information consciously? If that is your position than I guess I agree.

I'm going in circles with that and I've started to mislead because I don't know how else to say it. No. You perceive the world around you faster and that means that you are consciously aware and can consciously analyze your surroundings in relation to your movement speed and make conscious choices based on that as well. But you won't be able to literally calculate a trajectory of a thrown object and predict its purpose like Sazed in WoA or like Wax think about dozens of different scenarios as this kind of "thinking" isn't sped up.

56 minutes ago, therunner said:

How is it wrong? I literally said that he taps F-zinc to speed up thought (he does), and F-steel to move fast (he does), and in one instance he taps both (fight with Marsh).

Missred on my part. I was thinking about your original statement of "Sazed must explicitly tap F-Zinc to perceive the world in slow motion".

1 hour ago, therunner said:

It seems to me that he continued tapping F-zinc, but it is ambiguous.

So was he also tapping speed continuously, and then while tapping it he tapped it again because Brandon didn't write that he stopped tapping? Was he tapping zinc this entire time and then tapped it again just to make sure? How is it that other rings only allowed him for two short bursts of power while zinc on the level of doing complicated predictions was tapped no problem the entire time? No, that doesn't make sense. He stopped tapping zinc either at the moment he figured out what Marsh might do with the lamp before tapping steel or after he grabbed it after tapping steel. He didn’t tap it continuously as tapping it again makes no sense. He used it only for this one moment to think about this lamp and what Marsh will do with it. 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

But the ambiguity works both ways, if he continued tapping F-zinc, then his perception would be sped up even when taps F-steel.

But he didn't because it doesn't make sense to tap zinc again while he is already tapping zinc. The same was with iron and steel - Brandon wrote "he tapped" without writing later "he stopped tapping" but this clearly applied only to this one or two moves he did, not the entire fight scene. 

 

 

I don't think we will reach any consensus here. I'm starting to make mistakes and can't write what I have on my mind. For me WoBs have the answer - F-steel has some temporal effects, it is like a bullet time (and a bullet time is precisely what I'm trying to describe) and that's the overlap it has with F-zinc. We know Feruchemy gives you sometimes some effects that allow you to actually use the magic, that's why your body can hold your increased weight, and similarly that's why running without actually being able to know what's happening around doesn't make any sense. For me it make sense that F-steel gives you a bit of what F-zinc can give you, not all, not even most, but just enough so you can be aware of your surroundings and make conscious decisions based on that - with lower speeds this is a minimal effect, on higher speeds this makes difference and allows you to run with Mach 1. For me what Bleeder did was a perfect example of how F-steel works.

I can't say it any differently, you need to ask Brandon to clarify what's the difference between F-steel and F-zinc.

[therunner he/him]

On 12/10/2023 at 11:29 PM, alder24 said:

For me it's reaching a conclusion based on a very limited amount of data - and reading Wax's thoughts again, it somewhat fits.

Agree to disagree, it seems to me he literally just thought through a bunch of scenarios and then speculated a bit about a person he knows rather well.

Quote

I'm going in circles with that and I've started to mislead because I don't know how else to say it. No. You perceive the world around you faster and that means that you are consciously aware and can consciously analyze your surroundings in relation to your movement speed and make conscious choices based on that as well. But you won't be able to literally calculate a trajectory of a thrown object and predict its purpose like Sazed in WoA or like Wax think about dozens of different scenarios as this kind of "thinking" isn't sped up.

And that is the thing I have problem with.
If you can perceive the world around you faster and you can consciously analyze your surrounding and makes conscious choices and plans, than all of your thinking is sped up.

There is no 'think about dozens scenarios' kind of thinking that is separate from 'think fast and analyze your situation'. If F-Steel user can consciously analyze his surrounding and make conscious plans based on that, than he can think about other things with that same speed. Conscious thought is conscious thought no matter what you use it for.

Quote

Missred on my part. I was thinking about your original statement of "Sazed must explicitly tap F-Zinc to perceive the world in slow motion".

Fair enough.

Quote

So was he also tapping speed continuously, and then while tapping it he tapped it again because Brandon didn't write that he stopped tapping? Was he tapping zinc this entire time and then tapped it again just to make sure? How is it that other rings only allowed him for two short bursts of power while zinc on the level of doing complicated predictions was tapped no problem the entire time? No, that doesn't make sense. He stopped tapping zinc either at the moment he figured out what Marsh might do with the lamp before tapping steel or after he grabbed it after tapping steel. He didn’t tap it continuously as tapping it again makes no sense. He used it only for this one moment to think about this lamp and what Marsh will do with it. 

He could have more Zinc stored, perhaps it is easier to store than F-steel and F-Pewter.
Or he relaxed the rate of tapping as needed.

Since we don't have pointed out when he stopped tapping, we cannot say with any certainty when he stopped or didn't.

On 12/10/2023 at 11:29 PM, alder24 said:

I don't think we will reach any consensus here.

I agree, so at least on this we do have consensus.

Quote

For me WoBs have the answer - F-steel has some temporal effects, it is like a bullet time (and a bullet time is precisely what I'm trying to describe) and that's the overlap it has with F-zinc. For me it make sense that F-steel gives you a bit of what F-zinc can give you, not all, not even most, but just enough so you can be aware of your surroundings and make conscious decisions based on that - with lower speeds this is a minimal effect, on higher speeds this makes difference and allows you to run with Mach 1. For me what Bleeder did was a perfect example of how F-steel works.

And for me the very same WoB also has answer, the effects are slight and so cannot really do what most expect it to do (i.e. speed up your conscious thought to similar levels as your physical speed is sped up).

Quote

We know Feruchemy gives you sometimes some effects that allow you to actually use the magic, that's why your body can hold your increased weight, and similarly that's why running without actually being able to know what's happening around doesn't make any sense.

And we also know that those effects are nowhere near the same order of magnitude as the attribute you are tapping, and are limited in non-intuitive ways (like the resiliency and strength of F-Iron user, which behaves very differently from how it 'should').

Similarly, that is why I think that it is pure increase in reflexive and subconscious thinking (i.e. you/your body can react to stimuli to dodge/hit, but cannot make plans or anything of the sort), and so when sped up you won't be able to perform complex actions.

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For me it make sense that F-steel gives you a bit of what F-zinc can give you, not all, not even most, but just enough so you can be aware of your surroundings and make conscious decisions based on that - with lower speeds this is a minimal effect, on higher speeds this makes difference and allows you to run with Mach 1.

And the issue I have with this is two-fold:

1. What level of increase of perception/consciousness speed is needed to be aware of your surrounding is entirely dependent on your environment.
   • Extreme case of flat plain, you don't need basically any mental enhancement to take advantage of increased speed, humans using supersonic fighter jets proves that.
   • Extreme case of complicated cramped building, you need your mental enhancement to be basically equal in magnitude to your physical speed enhancement.
   • So even if there is increase in conscious mental speed in F-steel, then since it would 'slight' per WoB, there will always be scenarios where you cannot keep up with your surroundings.
2. As stated above, if you can consciously think about your surroundings and make conscious choices/plans based on that, than there is no reason why they cannot think about other things. Making choices necessarily involves considering possible outcomes, i.e. exactly what Wax does with F-Zinc.
   • So if F-steel increases that, it has its effect and part of the effect of F-Zinc.

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For me what Bleeder did was a perfect example of how F-steel works.

Problem with that is simple, Bleeder is Kandra and they can change their biology, including neurology and perception. She could easily compensate for F-steel using that.

What Bleeder seems to exhibit is in fact general increase in mental speed that is on-par with F-steel increase of physical speed. In SoS Ch. 16, when Wax perceives her from Bendalloy bubble, he sees her turn around look at him and shake her head (probably in dissapointment) which suggests that not only is she perceiving the world at equal (or near-equal) speed, but is also capable of abstract though of the same speed.

This is inconsistent with the WoB describing the increase as 'slight'.

I simply don't see a reason for F-steel to be even more overpowered than it already is. It lets you move and perform simple actions faster than other can see or react, lets you hit harder because of greater velocity and lets Mistborn basically do near-Duralumin level feats without need for Duralumin. Why does it need to also let you do good part of what F-Zinc lets you do?

 

I think we can leave it at that, we won't move anywhere else.

@Trusk'our Apologies for derailing the thread. Let me try and re-rail it.

 

My choice of spikes for champion:

• F-Chromium
  • This should let the champion to just 'happen' to do right decision. Giving them a general slight edge (or large edge if they tapped a lot at once).
• A-Bendalloy
  • Gives champion breathing space in the middle of battle, lets them reposition/dodge or isolate opponents.

For last spike I would go either with

• A-Steel
  • mobility + long range offensive option
• A-Pewter
  • general physical enhancement and increased resiliency
• A-Electrum
  • poor man's atium, nuff said

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by therunner

[Njvodin]

On 12/10/2023 at 6:20 AM, alder24 said:

they are something more like a plant, which can't be spiked. 

And here I was, wanting to spike a tree's Identity so I can become more deciduous 

[..... he/him]

On 10/9/2023 at 2:31 PM, Trusk'our said:

I'll start with one a bit different than normal- I'll forego the obvious my standard choice of F-gold and go for A-steel, A-iron, and F-iron.

this and this:

A-bendalloy + F-gold + A-pewter = better wax & better wayne

both are them plus the one power that could best improve the way they fight Just thought it was funny

Edited October 19, 2023 by .....