therunner he/him Posted October 29, 2023 Posted October 29, 2023 9 hours ago, idanstark42 said: But I do agree with you that we do not want to propegate the idea that matter is only built on Fermions or that radiation is only built on Bosons. But radiation is also matter, radiation is not 'energy' in any sense of the word. That is why it is misleading. 9 hours ago, idanstark42 said: What I though was that if the dimensinos of each Realm are perpendicular to one another then due to simple superposition I could look at the them seperatly. Then I thought to take one step backwards and ask why must all of those dimensions have the same QFs? Why should there be photons in SR? How many dimensions does it really have? Well, I would say that having some fields only exist in one part of reality and not other, when those parts of reality are causality connected is very artificial construction. Sure, it could be that, but it is oddly restricting. i would look at it that there is some constraint or reason for why e.g. photon field is not excited in SR. Quote And If all those dimensions exist in all places and times as one (since according to WoB SR does not share PR and CR's time, giving some entitied the ability to look into the pas and the future), what are the dimensions of SR? What is that WoB, I don't recall it. Notably entities don't look into the future per se, they see possible futures (or more specifically the likeliest + those aligned with Intent of viewer). But bringing that into discussion would basically end it, since it implies that Cosmere is not deterministic. (alternative being that all futuresight is some 'natural' simulation which sounds awkward). Quote More over, thinking about CR as an additional set of dimensions perpendicular to PR doesn't seem to describe it very well. There is a clear mapping between the two. I think looking at it as another set of fields over the same 3+1 D is probably more accurate. That is basically the same description, e.g. you can look at R^{3,1} as R over R^{2,1} with some additional structure (connection etc.). But CR runs very quickly into a serious problem, if you try to keep all properties stated in the books, that being that planets are mapped to 2d planes in CR which is geometrically not possible to do. So you will end up with situation where 2 points that are close on planet in PR are gigantically far apart in CR, and this is largely arbitrary. So the mapping will inevitably have discontinuity, which makes description in terms of smooth fields impossible. 10 hours ago, idanstark42 said: I agree that Stormlight, Voidlight, Dor, Godmetals, all seem to be Fermionic manifestations of Investiture. We cannot ignore though, that Steelpushing/Ironpulling, Lashings, Awakening, those are also manifestation of Investiture. Not forces caused by its existance, like an electron causes electromagnetic waves, but the Investiture itself passes onto those forces, seemingly becoming the Bosons governing those interactions. 2. Having a QF that can transfer all of its energy and spin to a QF in PR, both to a Bosonic and a Fermionic Field, requires either an anyon, a bosons which can split or fermions which can merge. All three are possible, but removing our 3+1 D preception, Investiture being anyons is the simplest one. I feel you are mixing two distinct things here. Stormlight/Voidlight/Dor/Godmetals etc. all are Investiture those would the actual Investiture field being excited. Since they behave like fermions, they should be fermionic in nature. Steelpushing/Lashing/Awakening is not Investiture but using Invesiture to act on other fields (e.g. electromagnetic(pushing/pulling), gravitational(lashing), primary e.m. but possibly self-interaction with Investiture field too (awakening). All this says is that Investiture field interacts with EM field, with metric (or connection) field and with itself, but does not speak ot its nature. Quote There are other ways to make this work, as you've said, but given all possible theories I still think that Investiture being Anyons is the simplest one. Here is why: 1. The limitation of particles being Fermions or Bosons comes to us only in 3+1 D and above. There is no guarantee that the manifold(s) in SR over which QF run are not 2+1 D (again, in SRs own dimensions and spacetime). This immediately runs into the issue that per Brandon SR does not have spacial dimensions, only temporal one. So you cannot have anyons at all, as those are restricted to only 2 spatial dimensions. 10 hours ago, idanstark42 said: 2. Having a QF that can transfer all of its energy and spin to a QF in PR, both to a Bosonic and a Fermionic Field, requires either an anyon, a bosons which can split or fermions which can merge. All three are possible, but removing our 3+1 D preception, Investiture being anyons is the simplest one. No, all it requires is that the QF interacts with both bosonic and fermionic fields, which is rather common situation (all non-abelian gauge fields do this). 10 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Yeah, this bothered me too. I thought about stripping Identity as injectly mapping (is this correct to say in english?) the Spiritweb into a plane, not removing any Connections or affecting any of the fields over it other then chaging the metric and Reimann Tensor. This results in the removal of all boundary conditions. In this sense, if you are still Connected to Preservation, you could still use pull on its Intent and use Feruchemy, but the stable excited states in your Spiritweb can pass into any Spiritweb, not only to yours.   Again, thank you for engagin in this conversation! I love learning from this, and I feel like I do learn a lot. Please let me know if you want to start this theory together from scratch, because I would love to try and see what we can come up with I forgot to respond to that. I do not yet have the group theory knowledge to do anything more then understand this, but I will study and get back to you. This does seem like a really interesting option, perhaps with very cool implications. I would love to hear more about this. Specifically. what we can deduct about group G from this? Do you think we could find specific elements of U(4) that correspond with specific shards? That would not work, at least not with smooth map. Distinct homotopy classes cannot be mapped smoothly one into another, so you will change a lot more than metric/Riemann tensors, you will be changing the underlying topology of the manifold in your solution. And since that cannot be done smoothly, you cannot do it in unique fashion, e.g. once you map spiritweb to plane, you have lost information and can no longer recover the original state. Quote This is a bit combersome. Maybe a better model would look at it as its own QF that creates potential in the other ones. Or maybe even really a simple "index" of the Spiritweb, without needing to go into any QM for this. It just seems like a very elegant solution. I don't think you need it as its own QF, just as another property of Investiture field. E.g. quark field has charge, spin, color, flavour. Investiture field would have Intent, Identity and bunch of other properties. The only 'issue' is that the Identity property has to be continuous (probably, depends on how F-Aluminum works) has to be at least 2 dimensional in nature, which is a rather unique thing when it comes to 'charges' (honestly not sure how that woudl work, if it even could, maybe have two 1 dimensional charges, which however have some inter dependency? sort of like spin-statistics). 10 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Again, thank you for engagin in this conversation! I love learning from this, and I feel like I do learn a lot.  I forgot to respond to that. I do not yet have the group theory knowledge to do anything more then understand this, but I will study and get back to you. This does seem like a really interesting option, perhaps with very cool implications. I would love to hear more about this. Specifically. what we can deduct about group G from this? Do you think we could find specific elements of U(4) that correspond with specific shards? I thank you, this is quite fun Quote Please let me know if you want to start this theory together from scratch, because I would love to try and see what we can come up with In the near future I sadly won't have time required for it, I am already quite stretched as is (work+school+trying to maintain social life ). But I would be happy to advise, and offer constructive criticism/play devil's advocate. 10 hours ago, idanstark42 said: This does seem like a really interesting option, perhaps with very cool implications. I would love to hear more about this. Specifically. what we can deduct about group G from this? Do you think we could find specific elements of U(4) that correspond with specific shards? All we can say about group G based on information we have, is that it should have U(4) as normal subgroup. The elements of U(4) that correspond to Intents (not Shards, those are 'just' all of the Investiture with given Intent in this model) would be the generators, by construction (i.e. we notice that there are 16 Intents which charge Investiture, so we look for group with 16 generators).
idanstark42 he/him Posted October 29, 2023 Author Posted October 29, 2023 5 hours ago, therunner said: But radiation is also matter, radiation is not 'energy' in any sense of the word. And I could say that matter is just excited states of quantum fields, and exited states are just states with additional energy over the ground states, so you could say that all matter is just different configurations of energy. In the quantum level, the world is just numbers. I wanted to use names for Fermions and Bosons that could allow people to understand, intuitivly, what their roles are. More precisely, I wanted to use the original wording in the question I reference in the begining of the thread, where they asked Brandon about energy-matter equivillence. Brandon says that in the cosmere, there is matter, energy and a third thing called Investiture. We agree that Investiture should be a type of QF. So I thought to myself: the two known types of QF I know of are Fermions and Bosons. What would be a third? This is where Anyons come from, and where the usage of the words "energy particles" and "matter particles" comes from. Here is a WoB on the subject: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1663 5 hours ago, therunner said: Well, I would say that having some fields only exist in one part of reality and not other, when those parts of reality are causality connected is very artificial construction. Sure, it could be that, but it is oddly restricting. I find it the opposite. You bring forth a rule: every QF that exist over one dimension must exist over all of them. I ask: why? I am looking at a broader set of options. 5 hours ago, therunner said: What is that WoB, I don't recall it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e612 5 hours ago, therunner said: But CR runs very quickly into a serious problem, if you try to keep all properties stated in the books, that being that planets are mapped to 2d planes in CR which is geometrically not possible to do. So you will end up with situation where 2 points that are close on planet in PR are gigantically far apart in CR, and this is largely arbitrary. Yes! This is one of the things I love about this theory. If, for some reason related to SR and PR, CR is created from the Preception of people, the mapping would change according to some Perception Tensor. This would cause planets to have their own percieved gravity, and distances might even act like they do on the planet. The question that rises from this is, given a subastral of some planet, how would one travel outside of it to another subastral? Where is the passage on the map of the planet? I don't think we ever saw someone do that (maybe Kel in Secret History but I don't remember). Perhaps it is in the "least perceived" point, though this is not weel defined without defining what Perception really is. 5 hours ago, therunner said: So the mapping will inevitably have discontinuity, which makes description in terms of smooth fields impossible. 15 hours ago, idanstark42 said: We could look at the discontinuity as a boundry condition and describe as smooth fields inside each subastral, then patch them together to create the between. 5 hours ago, therunner said: I feel you are mixing two distinct things here. Stormlight/Voidlight/Dor/Godmetals etc. all are Investiture those would the actual Investiture field being excited. Since they behave like fermions, they should be fermionic in nature. Steelpushing/Lashing/Awakening is not Investiture but using Invesiture to act on other fields (e.g. electromagnetic(pushing/pulling), gravitational(lashing), primary e.m. but possibly self-interaction with Investiture field too (awakening). All this says is that Investiture field interacts with EM field, with metric (or connection) field and with itself, but does not speak ot its nature. Well, the Investiture Coppermind page is full of speculations, but I did some extra reading about this. Steelpushing is not a result of EM interactions, since it works on neutrally charged metals and on all types of metals (excluding aluminum). Lashing is a result of changing the "Gravitational Spiritual Connection", meaning that is some change in SR, not in the PR gravitational field. Awakening is never really exlained in deapth, but that is, I believe, some of the point. I do have an explanation for it in the article, but you opposed a lot of the points leading up to it so far, so I don't see a reason to get into it right now. Regardless, we don't know what Investiture is. We are merely guessing based on what is said in world. Those examples, Stomrlight, Voidlight, Dor, Godmetals, we don't know that they are Investiture itself. We know what Investiture is not. Investiture is neither matter nor energy (exept that everything is energy). It's something third. Those examples all act like matter, but Investiture is not matter. So maybe those are not really Investiture, but results of its interactions with QF in PR. These are all, again, just theories and speculations. So I say not that Steelpushing/Lashing/Awakening are Investiture in the sense that they are Invesisture based interactions the way EM interactions are based on photons, but that they are Investiture in the same way that Stormlight, Voidlight and godmetals are Investiture. Investiture is not really contained in PR. It transceds the three realms. What does that mean? Well, I think this model does work: 15 hours ago, idanstark42 said: So I said that the Spiritweb is a manifold, over which there is a QF for Investiture, and that Manifold has a point where it is tangent to PR, and so energy can pass from it to PR at that point in the PR spacetime. The fact that Investiture doesn't really "exist" in PR, in the sense that the QF that contains it is not over that spacetime, but over another one, tangent to it, does bother me, but again, I couldn't find a better solution, and this seems to work. Whereever there is Investiture in SR, there is Investiture in PR. 19 hours ago, therunner said: 5 hours ago, therunner said: This immediately runs into the issue that per Brandon SR does not have spacial dimensions, only temporal one. So you cannot have anyons at all, as those are restricted to only 2 spatial dimensions. 15 hours ago, idanstark42 said: As mentioned above, it does not have a temporal dimension. yes, it must contain information about Spirits someway, and so it must have some dimensions. I called them spacial, because having those dimensions as a different set of spatial dimensions, because any property there could be mathematically viewed as a quantum number, and thus we can describe this as over a spacial dimension. This gives us the ability to use the same physical description for those properties, and gain a simple model for the passage of energy between the two. 5 hours ago, therunner said: No, all it requires is that the QF interacts with both bosonic and fermionic fields, which is rather common situation (all non-abelian gauge fields do this). 15 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Interesting. I do have to learn about this in greater depths (currently working on it ). How does that work with conservation of spin? If I have a single fermion interacting with a bosonic field creating a single boson, how does spin conserve? 5 hours ago, therunner said: That would not work, at least not with smooth map. Distinct homotopy classes cannot be mapped smoothly one into another, so you will change a lot more than metric/Riemann tensors, you will be changing the underlying topology of the manifold in your solution. And since that cannot be done smoothly, you cannot do it in unique fashion, e.g. once you map spiritweb to plane, you have lost information and can no longer recover the original state. Well, they can in some cases. Torus and sphere can both be smoothly mapped to a plane. But perhaps you are right. 5 hours ago, therunner said: The only 'issue' is that the Identity property  I'm not sure it would have to be continuous. And I don't see the problem with 2-D properties.  One more thing about Realmatic theory. When you have a position in CR, you are in CR, you do not have a defined position in PR. This makes me thing of PR and CR as two subspaces, perpendicular to one another, and an entity can be in either one of them. In this sense, we would have in total a space that looks like R^{3,1} X { C, P } X SR, whatever SR is. Here C, and P are two optional values for wether you are in CR or PR. In this description, mapping the two is more possible, and passing between the two can be thought about more like it said in the books.  Thank you! I'm off to do some actual work since I've been on this for the better part of three hours now  I am learning a lot, so thank you 1
therunner he/him Posted October 29, 2023 Posted October 29, 2023 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: And I could say that matter is just excited states of quantum fields, and exited states are just states with additional energy over the ground states, so you could say that all matter is just different configurations of energy. In the quantum level, the world is just numbers. Yep, you could and that would be accurate. Quote I wanted to use names for Fermions and Bosons that could allow people to understand, intuitivly, what their roles are. More precisely, I wanted to use the original wording in the question I reference in the begining of the thread, where they asked Brandon about energy-matter equivillence. Brandon says that in the cosmere, there is matter, energy and a third thing called Investiture. We agree that Investiture should be a type of QF. So I thought to myself: the two known types of QF I know of are Fermions and Bosons. What would be a third? This is where Anyons come from, and where the usage of the words "energy particles" and "matter particles" comes from. Problem is that the very question in the WoB is ill-posed. There is no such thing as 'matter-energy' equivalence, there is only mass-energy equivalence. If you take it in this looser sense, that there is additional field, than that alone is not enough to claim it should be anyons. But that relies on building more speculative layers on top of what is already shaky foundation. 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Here is a WoB on the subject: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1663 The WoB can also be interpreted simply that there is a field, called Investiture field and Invested particles can under certain conditions be created from PR fields. 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: I find it the opposite. You bring forth a rule: every QF that exist over one dimension must exist over all of them. I ask: why? I am looking at a broader set of options. Continuity, and interaction. We know that PR, CR and SR interact together, and can be traversed. We see people in CR, so that implies that basically all PR field should extend into CR as well (otherwise Investiture field has to be able to fully simulate all of the PR fields on its own, since people's bodies and objects continue to function as in PR, which just means that Investiture field would contain a copy of Standard Model a pointless complicaiton). SR might be traversable (in the sense you go through it, but cannot stop there), so that would imply that PR (and so CR) fields should extend there as well. Quote https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e612 Thanks! 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Yes! This is one of the things I love about this theory. If, for some reason related to SR and PR, CR is created from the Preception of people, the mapping would change according to some Perception Tensor. This would cause planets to have their own percieved gravity, and distances might even act like they do on the planet. Except we know that CR is fundamental part of reality, and part of it exists even without being perceived (e.g. empty spaces, spaces between populated planets). CR is shaped by Perception but is not created by it. 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: The question that rises from this is, given a subastral of some planet, how would one travel outside of it to another subastral? Where is the passage on the map of the planet? I don't think we ever saw someone do that (maybe Kel in Secret History but I don't remember). Perhaps it is in the "least perceived" point, though this is not weel defined without defining what Perception really is. Apparently you walk in any direction, and eventually you will get 'off-planet'. Quote We could look at the discontinuity as a boundry condition and describe as smooth fields inside each subastral, then patch them together to create the between. You won't be able to have smooth field inside each subastral, as I would expect that set of smooth functions over sphere won't be a subset of smooth functions over a bounded area in R^2 (too lazy to do proof, but topology alone would most likely present obstruction). So there will be smooth objects/fields in PR that cannot have smooth reflection in CR. Additionally, any time some person crosses over the 'least perceived' line in PR, that persons CR representation would suddenly vanish and appear elsewhere, so you have non-local process to deal with (if you treat CR separately). 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Steelpushing is not a result of EM interactions, since it works on neutrally charged metals and on all types of metals (excluding aluminum). Lashing is a result of changing the "Gravitational Spiritual Connection", meaning that is some change in SR, not in the PR gravitational field. Awakening is never really exlained in deapth, but that is, I believe, some of the point. I do have an explanation for it in the article, but you opposed a lot of the points leading up to it so far, so I don't see a reason to get into it right now. Yeah, I spoke hastily. From what we see Steelpushing works somehow by establishing Connection line (the blue line Allomancer sees), and then doing something to that Connection (probably something like modifying the Connection to say "we are further apart", and then the SR filters to PR through CR). Similar for Lashing as you say. Quote Regardless, we don't know what Investiture is. We are merely guessing based on what is said in world. Those examples, Stomrlight, Voidlight, Dor, Godmetals, we don't know that they are Investiture itself. We know what Investiture is not. Investiture is neither matter nor energy (exept that everything is energy). It's something third. Those examples all act like matter, but Investiture is not matter. So maybe those are not really Investiture, but results of its interactions with QF in PR. These are all, again, just theories and speculations. That is not true. We know that Stormlight (Any-light) is Investiture (specifically Gaseous one), it has been stated both in-world and by author. I mean, we literally see Stormlight stream into PR from SR in Oathbringer and any other time Dalinar opens Perpendicularity. Same goes for Dor and for Godmetals, both in- and out-world they are stated to literally be Investiture. So yes, all of that is Investiture itself. And all of that acts like fermionic matter, so assuming Investiture field is fermionic is a natural starting point. Also, outside of Godmetals, all of the above are also seen in CR, so same Investiture field is also present there. Quote So I say not that Steelpushing/Lashing/Awakening are Investiture in the sense that they are Invesisture based interactions the way EM interactions are based on photons, but that they are Investiture in the same way that Stormlight, Voidlight and godmetals are Investiture. That does not make much sense. That is like saying that e.g. computer is charged particle in the same way electron is. Steelpushign/Lashing/Awakening are applications of Investiture, not Investiture itself. All of them use it to do what they do, but they are not the thing itself. Quote Investiture is not really contained in PR. It transceds the three realms. What does that mean? That Investiture exists in all three realms? Same way living being do (in Cosmere)? 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: As mentioned above, it does not have a temporal dimension. No, SR has temporal dimension (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129 + things inside decay over time), and is 'space-less' at the same time (other WoBs). The SR and time is weird in that it allows to break causality to some extant, despite future not being fixed (seemingly). Quote yes, it must contain information about Spirits someway, and so it must have some dimensions. I called them spacial, because having those dimensions as a different set of spatial dimensions, because any property there could be mathematically viewed as a quantum number, and thus we can describe this as over a spacial dimension. This gives us the ability to use the same physical description for those properties, and gain a simple model for the passage of energy between the two. But it is misleading to label those properties 'spatial dimensions', because those explicitly are not there. Same way we don't say that our universe has e.g. 15+1 dimensions because of the SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) fiber bundle over it (ignoring fermionic fields for simplicity). Geometrically yes, the entire bundle would have those dimensions, but 12 of those are decidedly not the same thing as 3+1 space-time dimensions. So based on the above, at most we can look at SR as one dimensional structure over which there is something very complicated encoding all of the spiritwebs. 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Interesting. I do have to learn about this in greater depths (currently working on it ). How does that work with conservation of spin? If I have a single fermion interacting with a bosonic field creating a single boson, how does spin conserve? Simple, such interactions is not possible. Any and all terms of Lagrangian must be scalar in the end, so all the indices must sum away. This means that e.g. bosons and fermions interact (on tree level) solely via 3-point vertex (one boson, two fermions). This means for example that e.g. for electron-positron pair production you will always need two photons (ignoring weak interaction for the moment). You can describe scattering of particle via external field this way as well, one fermion is then incoming particle, and the second is outgoing, with the boson being photon mediating the interaction. Regarding spin conservation, there is no such thing. What is conserved is total angular momentum, sum of spin and orbital angular momentum. So e.g. for pair production the electron and positron can come out in particular configuration (p-wave) where they carry orbital momentum. 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Well, they can in some cases. Torus and sphere can both be smoothly mapped to a plane. But perhaps you are right. No they cannot. You always have to cut them somewhere to do this mapping, and so it is not smooth mapping. The second you do a cut on one of the objects or remove some point, you no longer have smooth map (e.g. stereographic project is a map from sphere minus one point) If torus and sphere could be smoothly mapped to a plane (they cannot) that would mean they have same topology, which they clearly don't. 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: I'm not sure it would have to be continuous. And I don't see the problem with 2-D properties. If Feruchemy can change Identity smoothly it would have to be continuous property. The 2D part is more the fact that in the end, all the invariant charges are effectively scalars and independent of each other. Here we would have invariant charge which is not scalar, which I am not sure is possible. 7 hours ago, idanstark42 said: Thank you! I'm off to do some actual work since I've been on this for the better part of three hours now  I am learning a lot, so thank you Glad you are enjoying this and finding it useful
idanstark42 he/him Posted October 29, 2023 Author Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) Ok. We've been at it for a while, so I want to make some organization about our discussion here: I think we exhusted the discussion about terminology, and we can put this aside, because, at least to me, this is the least interesting part here. The discussions that I think are worth continuing are: A. The structure of the Spiritual Realm A.1. Does SR have a temporal dimension? I think I agree that SR must have a shared temporal dimension with the other Realms, since we can see a Spiritweb being different at different points in time. I thoguht about the issue with causality, but since you can only see posibilities, we could say that SR somehow contaisn data about the current mixed state of the system, and the probability for every pure state (density operator?). Overall, I think I agree that SR must have a temporal dimension. A.2. What can represent Spiritwebs, Identity, Connections and Intent? We need to understand better those structures, in order to think about a structure for them. I do like the structure I built in the article, but let's put that aside and think abuot them in general. Here are some things we know:  - SR is made of Spirtiwebs and Connections between them  - A Spirtiwebs is mapped somehow to and obejct in CR and PR. This is not a mapping to a coordinate in those realms, but to an object, maybe a complex wave function. The limit of what is part of the object and was isn't vary.  - Different Connections have different properties  - A object, that is mapped to a Spiritweb, can be Invested, and can have Intent.  - The Spiritweb, should be able to have, or at least transfer, energy in some manner in order to keep the conservation of energy (for example, the kinetic energy supplied to a steelpushed coin) Things this makes me think about: The set of all Connections could be viewed as a binary function from the set of all Spirtiwebs to some complex data structure representing the strength and nature of a specific Connection (f: S X S -> C where S is the set of all Spiritwebs and C is the set of all possible Connection attributes). This sounds like this might call for usage of graph theory. Are there objects in QFT which are not QF and can have (or transfer) energy? This is assuming we are going to use QFT as a framework (which we must, since black body radiation have been mentioned in universe). About SR sharing the same QF as PR, I don't think one could be in the Spiritual Realm, or at least, I don't think that a body can be there. Do you have any evidance of that? It should be able to interact with PR, but that doesn't require them to have the QFs, right?  B. The structure of the Cognitive Realm 1. How can there be a mapping from PR to CR? So you just walk anywhere and get off planet? So I can draw a circle in CR and say "this is the subastral"? You could map like this: Let θ,ϕ be the coordinates for the sphere, and r,ϕ be the coordinates for the plane. let R be the radius of the circle on the plane. The transformation can be defined as ϕ = ϕ r = R*sin(θ/2) This would cause only one point of "discontinuity", which in the planar version would be the circumfrence, and in the spherical version we could call the least percieved point, since this is a good theory of where it would emerge. If this model is correct, then the only physical solutions would be such that the wave function is smooth in both the sphere and the plane. Since there is already a periodic boundary condition in ϕ in both of them, what is left for us to make sure is the boundary condition on the circumfrence of the plane that says that Ψ(R, ϕ) is not dependent on ϕ. This does mean that all points around a subastral are basically the same, but this is the only condition we get. The fact that we only get conditions on CR is nice, but it is a really weird condition. I don't think moving through this is possible. Perhaps another solution would be required, like saying that the least percieved point really isn't mapped, and for a person to be there it must be percieved by them. 2. What is CR in relation to PR? As you've said, there are people in CR, so the QF from PR must extend there as well. I see here two options:  - PR and CR together form a R^{6,1} spacetime.  - PR and CR are two R^{3,1} subspaces in a R^{4,1} spacetime (or perhaps a R^{3,1} X { C, P }). I see more sense in the latter, since it allows to explain perpendicularities as a 4D version of an Einstein–Rosen bridge, and because I think it better represent the conditions under which matter can move from one to the other. I still don't think this description is close to complete, since I do believe that SR also has a great influence on this structure. 3. Does Perception cause the existance of CR or simply effects its geometrical properties? I don't think we have the tools to answer this question, but without WoB I don't think we can know definitly right now. C. Investiture 1. What is Investiture? Where does it exist? I just want to quote the coppermind on Allomancy on this (quoted from Ars Arcanum of TLM): Quote Allomancy is the most widely used form of Investiture on Scadrial. I went to the original quote, and there it is referred to as a manifestation of Investiture: Quote On Scandrial, there are three prime manifestations of Investiture. ... Allomancy is the most common of the three Allomancy, and as such, steelpushing, isn't the usage of Investiture, it is a manifestation of Investiture. My point is, the terminology is confusing, and we should be careful about it. Let's say that Stormlight, Breaths and Godmetals are really all Investiture, how could Allomancy be one as well, if it has nothing Fermionic about it? I don't see a solution to this purely lingual conflict. I think the best solution here is to say that those aren't really Investiture, and think back about what is.   BTW looking at our universe through a lense of "charges are dimensions" could be actually very interesting I think Edited October 30, 2023 by idanstark42 Adding responses as promised :)
therunner he/him Posted October 31, 2023 Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: Ok. We've been at it for a while, so I want to make some organization about our discussion here: I think we exhusted the discussion about terminology, and we can put this aside, because, at least to me, this is the least interesting part here. Fair enough, I agree. On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: A.1. Does SR have a temporal dimension?  I think I agree that SR must have a shared temporal dimension with the other Realms, since we can see a Spiritweb being different at different points in time. I thoguht about the issue with causality, but since you can only see posibilities, we could say that SR somehow contaisn data about the current mixed state of the system, and the probability for every pure state (density operator?). Overall, I think I agree that SR must have a temporal dimension. The issue is more retrocausality, i.e. Kaladin is so good with spear when young, because he will be very good with spear (to some extent). I.e. you can have sort of retrocausal echoes, through SR. Per Brandon it should not break causality directly though. On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said:  A.2. What can represent Spiritwebs, Identity, Connections and Intent? We need to understand better those structures, in order to think about a structure for them. I do like the structure I built in the article, but let's put that aside and think abuot them in general. Here are some things we know:  - SR is made of Spirtiwebs and Connections between them  - A Spirtiwebs is mapped somehow to and obejct in CR and PR. This is not a mapping to a coordinate in those realms, but to an object, maybe a complex wave function. The limit of what is part of the object and was isn't vary.  - Different Connections have different properties  - A object, that is mapped to a Spiritweb, can be Invested, and can have Intent.  - The Spiritweb, should be able to have, or at least transfer, energy in some manner in order to keep the conservation of energy (for example, the kinetic energy supplied to a steelpushed coin) I agree with most of the points, with two corrections regarding last points: Objects can be Invested even without having spiritweb (e.g. metalminds, gems). The energy in Invested arts typically comes from Investiture, not spiritweb (spiritweb being only a conduit for Investiture). The only exception known so far being Feruchemy, where bulk of Investiture is from spiritweb. Additionally, spiritwebs are made out of Investiture. Quote The set of all Connections could be viewed as a binary function from the set of all Spirtiwebs to some complex data structure representing the strength and nature of a specific Connection (f: S X S -> C where S is the set of all Spiritwebs and C is the set of all possible Connection attributes). This sounds like this might call for usage of graph theory. Could be a way to look at it, though it seems very complex. What would be the advantage of this viewpoint? On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: Are there objects in QFT which are not QF and can have (or transfer) energy? This is assuming we are going to use QFT as a framework (which we must, since black body radiation have been mentioned in universe). No, all that exists are QFTs (in that framework). So you cannot have other objects. There are some non-Lagrangian theories, but I am not well versed in that area. Additional argument for usage of QFT is the fact that PR is 'just' our world + Investiture stuff, and since QFT is good for description of our reality, so it should be good to describe large part of PR too. On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: About SR sharing the same QF as PR, I don't think one could be in the Spiritual Realm, or at least, I don't think that a body can be there. Do you have any evidance of that? It should be able to interact with PR, but that doesn't require them to have the QFs, right? Body cannot be there, but that does not mean QF's cannot be there. If SR has zero spatial dimensions, body could quire literally not be there, but there could be quantum 'field' over that point. If we want to describe PR with QFTs, we need to describe stuff from SR in terms of QFs as well (or at least classical field if we don't care about dynamics too much, and treat SR as background field). On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: 1. How can there be a mapping from PR to CR?  So you just walk anywhere and get off planet? So I can draw a circle in CR and say "this is the subastral"? As far as we know, yes. On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: You could map like this: Let θ,ϕ be the coordinates for the sphere, and r,ϕ be the coordinates for the plane. let R be the radius of the circle on the plane. The transformation can be defined as ϕ = ϕ r = R*sin(θ/2) This would cause only one point of "discontinuity", which in the planar version would be the circumfrence, and in the spherical version we could call the least percieved point, since this is a good theory of where it would emerge. Yes, but then you are no longer mapping sphere to plane, but sphere minus some point. Quote If this model is correct, then the only physical solutions would be such that the wave function is smooth in both the sphere and the plane. Since there is already a periodic boundary condition in ϕ in both of them, what is left for us to make sure is the boundary condition on the circumfrence of the plane that says that Ψ(R, ϕ) is not dependent on ϕ. This does mean that all points around a subastral are basically the same, but this is the only condition we get. The fact that we only get conditions on CR is nice, but it is a really weird condition. I don't think moving through this is possible. This is problematic condition, since different points around specific subastral lead to different subastrals (see map of Rosharan CR). The mapping probably does work somewhat like that, On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: 2. What is CR in relation to PR?  As you've said, there are people in CR, so the QF from PR must extend there as well. I see here two options:  - PR and CR together form a R^{6,1} spacetime.  - PR and CR are two R^{3,1} subspaces in a R^{4,1} spacetime (or perhaps a R^{3,1} X { C, P }). I see more sense in the latter, since it allows to explain perpendicularities as a 4D version of an Einstein–Rosen bridge, and because I think it better represent the conditions under which matter can move from one to the other. I agree that the second options seems more appealing, especially since the dimensions are somewhat separated. (note that two R^{3,1} subspaces is the same thing as R^{3,1}x{C,P}, if you ignore the larger structure of R^{4,1}. Under this, the perpendicularity works quite well as ER-wormhole connecting two subspaces. Theoretically we could plug in string theory, and treat PR and CR as 4-branes, but frankly I think that is overkill (more of a fun thought ) On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: I still don't think this description is close to complete, since I do believe that SR also has a great influence on this structure. Indeed, but partial picture is better than none If I were to push for SR to have at least partially separate temporal dimension, I would suggest that PR, CR and SR are all subspaces of R^{4,2} with certain relations between them. On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: 3. Does Perception cause the existance of CR or simply effects its geometrical properties?  I don't think we have the tools to answer this question, but without WoB I don't think we can know definitly right now. The discussion in this WoB implies that particular features of CR are result of thought, CR itself is not (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5671). Specifically the part where Brandon talks about island that no one knows and things about would slowly vanish into the CR. So CR as space exists independently of perception, but its features are result of perception and thought. The WoB here (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13066) says that Realm all exist since 'Big Bang'. On 10/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, idanstark42 said: 1. What is Investiture? Where does it exist?  I just want to quote the coppermind on Allomancy on this (quoted from Ars Arcanum of TLM): I went to the original quote, and there it is referred to as a manifestation of Investiture: Allomancy, and as such, steelpushing, isn't the usage of Investiture, it is a manifestation of Investiture. My point is, the terminology is confusing, and we should be careful about it. Let's say that Stormlight, Breaths and Godmetals are really all Investiture, how could Allomancy be one as well, if it has nothing Fermionic about it? Again, Allomancy is Invested Art i.e. manipulation and usage of Investiture to achieve effects (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15257) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15257), manifestation of Investiture is different way of saying the same thing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14446). Allomancy is the same category as Surgebinding on Roshar, a magical system of using Investiture. For example, Metallic arts are not fundamental, they were created (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8486) when Scadrial was created. If Scadrial was destroyed, and Harmony left for different planet, Allomancy could stop existing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15703). All the magic arts are tapping into same underlying mechanism (e.g. being powered by Investiture, metals affecting them etc.), but they are not the Investiture itself. But Stormlight, Breaths, Godmetals are Investiture and existed since the moment Shards did. We even see Allomancy be powered by different Investiture in TLM, when they use Dor jars. Just like Surgebinding uses Lights to be powered. Quote I don't see a solution to this purely lingual conflict. I think the best solution here is to say that those aren't really Investiture, and think back about what is. It is not purely lingual conflict. We know that Lights/Breaths/Mists/Dor/Godmetals are Investiture, we are told this both in-world and out. Same way, we know that Allomancy/Steelpushing/Surgebinding/Awakening etc. is not Investiture, but Invested Art, i.e. usage of Investiture to achieve some effect. Again, this is confirmed both in-world and out. Edited October 31, 2023 by therunner
IlstrawberrySeed Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 First off, I understand about 1/10 of the conversation's backend, but I can follow the frontend. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something. Also, @idanstark42. On 10/31/2023 at 2:19 PM, therunner said: Fair enough, I agree. The issue is more retrocausality, i.e. Kaladin is so good with spear when young, because he will be very good with spear (to some extent). I.e. you can have sort of retrocausal echoes, through SR. Per Brandon it should not break causality directly though. The cosmere is deterministic given no one can see the future. Once the future impacts the present, the future splits - They do something to change the future which changes the future they see and changes what they do to change the future, Ad infinitum. This is why Atium shadows split when multiple people see the future. This is known as fortune, and is how Free Will seemingly takes shape in the cosmere. The cosmere's future is therefore a self-referential function, which manifests itself as possibilities, which further muddles itself. Think about how Vin's split worked - either he does A and she does a, or he does B and she does b. It's a self referential function based on which future he reacts to, which is (theoretically) deterministic. With regular Atium, it's more complex, but follows similar principles. You see they do A, so you do a. They see you do a, so they do B, so you do b, so they do C, so you do A again. It looks like lots of choices, but it's just a deterministic loop (as long as "free will" is deterministic). But since they all start at the same time with the same origin and no obvious cause and effect order (since you would also need to decide what your doing independently of other atium shadows. If someone decided what they were doing, programmed it into an exosuit, and then burned atium, their opponent burning atium wouldn't get split shadows, because nothing changes based on the one seeing the future. The one in the suit would see 1 or 2 shadows, the one that would happen if the one outside the suit wasn't burning atium, and one because he's burning atium. The former is always accompanied by the latter. On 10/31/2023 at 2:19 PM, therunner said: Objects can be Invested even without having spiritweb (e.g. metalminds, gems). Objects have spiritwebs. (Except maybe aluminum?!) All forging does is change its SW, and that works on objects. On 10/31/2023 at 2:19 PM, therunner said: Body cannot be there, but that does not mean QF's cannot be there. If SR has zero spatial dimensions, body could quire literally not be there, but there could be quantum 'field' over that point. Body can't stay there, but why couldn't it pass through it as point? (PS, asking because that's how I see teleportation working.) On 10/31/2023 at 2:19 PM, therunner said: If we want to describe PR with QFTs, we need to describe stuff from SR in terms of QFs as well (or at least classical field if we don't care about dynamics too much, and treat SR as background field). As far as we know, yes. Yes, but then you are no longer mapping sphere to plane, but sphere minus some point. This is problematic condition, since different points around specific subastral lead to different subastrals (see map of Rosharan CR). The mapping probably does work somewhat like that, I don't understand the bolded line. I also don't see how 4d wouldn't solve the continuous projection problem immediately. A 3d projection would look like a sphere tangent to a plane. On 10/31/2023 at 2:19 PM, therunner said: But Stormlight, Breaths, Godmetals are Investiture and existed since the moment Shards did. Technically they could exist as of investiture, since Ado could prioritize certain parts of inves when allocating. I personally believe that primary intent is the E of intents of the component investiture, and due to the connection to the shard, their intent is overridden by the shards. However, factors can change the shard's intent (When mixing inves) that casues it to override the component intents. In other words, starting from ado and breaking it down, without mixing it, you would find that Ado is the sum over a space, the shards are sums over subspaces, etc, until you have the smallest unit of intent over some value of investiture. Each part of the intent "graph" would be split over all the shards, on a sliding scale from even to isolated. This gets muddled when recombining, since the reason Harmony should be Creation is that is what the parts did together, rather than an emergent property of the investiture, which is what Sazed wants/expects it to be.
therunner he/him Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 11 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: First off, I understand about 1/10 of the conversation's backend, but I can follow the frontend. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something. Also, @idanstark42. The cosmere is deterministic given no one can see the future. Once the future impacts the present, the future splits - They do something to change the future which changes the future they see and changes what they do to change the future, Ad infinitum. This is why Atium shadows split when multiple people see the future. This is known as fortune, and is how Free Will seemingly takes shape in the cosmere. Shards can see the future, and they also only see possibilities. However, this could be because of other Shards. But 11 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: Objects have spiritwebs. (Except maybe aluminum?!) All forging does is change its SW, and that works on objects.  I don't understand the bolded line. I also don't see how 4d wouldn't solve the continuous projection problem immediately. A 3d projection would look like a sphere tangent to a plane. Technically they could exist as of investiture, since Ado could prioritize certain parts of inves when allocating. I personally believe that primary intent is the E of intents of the component investiture, and due to the connection to the shard, their intent is overridden by the shards. However, factors can change the shard's intent (When mixing inves) that casues it to override the component intents. In other words, starting from ado and breaking it down, without mixing it, you would find that Ado is the sum over a space, the shards are sums over subspaces, etc, until you have the smallest unit of intent over some value of investiture. Each part of the intent "graph" would be split over all the shards, on a sliding scale from even to isolated. This gets muddled when recombining, since the reason Harmony should be Creation is that is what the parts did together, rather than an emergent property of the investiture, which is what Sazed wants/expects it to be. Hmm, good point. I retract my statement. I was thinking that since AI in Cosmere would require proper spiritual aspect per WoB, that means objects don't have spiritwebs. But it probably is more of a 'type' (for a lack of better word) of spiritweb. Quote Body can't stay there, but why couldn't it pass through it as point? (PS, asking because that's how I see teleportation working.) Well, body is 3D object, it literally cannot fit in 0D point. However, apparently more recent WoB claims person can exist in SR, but "It's weird" (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/404/#e13522). So perhaps it is less that you exist as 3D entity in SR, and more that you get 'encoded' into SR information, your Connection changes, and then you are 'decoded' back into PR? So you 'passthrough', but as information, not as material entity. 11 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said: I don't understand the bolded line. If you map sphere minus point to CR continuously, the entire boundary in CR would be points that are infinetesimaly close in PR. But in CR they would lead to different locations, and are in fact hugely far apart. And mapping @idanstark42 proposed would require that all of those boundary points in CR are the same, but they are not. This is the problem. Quote I also don't see how 4d wouldn't solve the continuous projection problem immediately. A 3d projection would look like a sphere tangent to a plane. How do you mean? Higher dimension won't solve this problem, the problem is fundamental to the fact you are trying to map two surfaces of different topologies, which cannot be done continuously. Â
IlstrawberrySeed Posted November 7, 2023 Posted November 7, 2023 12 hours ago, therunner said: Shards can see the future, and they also only see possibilities. However, this could be because of other Shards. But Hmm, good point. I retract my statement. I was thinking that since AI in Cosmere would require proper spiritual aspect per WoB, that means objects don't have spiritwebs. But it probably is more of a 'type' (for a lack of better word) of spiritweb. Well, body is 3D object, it literally cannot fit in 0D point. However, apparently more recent WoB claims person can exist in SR, but "It's weird" (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/404/#e13522). So perhaps it is less that you exist as 3D entity in SR, and more that you get 'encoded' into SR information, your Connection changes, and then you are 'decoded' back into PR? So you 'passthrough', but as information, not as material entity. I am definitely saving that WoB. 12 hours ago, therunner said: If you map sphere minus point to CR continuously, the entire boundary in CR would be points that are infinetesimaly close in PR. But in CR they would lead to different locations, and are in fact hugely far apart. So it was just another way of stating the issue. Got it. 12 hours ago, therunner said: And mapping @idanstark42 proposed would require that all of those boundary points in CR are the same, but they are not. This is the problem. How do you mean? Higher dimension won't solve this problem, the problem is fundamental to the fact you are trying to map two surfaces of different topologies, which cannot be done continuously.  I don't think it is litteral topology in the 3d nature of the word. I don't see any perfect solution to crop up, unless you go with the Seeker's answer: Spoiler There is a space in which only what humans bring with them exist, including a sense of down, such that by virtue of entering it differently, people would experience different directional gravity or different "surface" planes. or use high Demensional rotation for identical topology in sub-spaces using 3 dimensions. Before I wrote the Seeker's answer out, I thought that the latter was more likely. Now I'm not sure.
idanstark42 he/him Posted December 20, 2023 Author Posted December 20, 2023 Hi Have'nt been here in a while, but the latest spoiler stream got me going again I want to continue talking, even though I'm still in the middle of the QFT book I'm reading. On 10/31/2023 at 11:19 PM, therunner said: I agree with most of the points, with two corrections regarding last points: Objects can be Invested even without having spiritweb (e.g. metalminds, gems). The energy in Invested arts typically comes from Investiture, not spiritweb (spiritweb being only a conduit for Investiture). The only exception known so far being Feruchemy, where bulk of Investiture is from spiritweb. Additionally, spiritwebs are made out of Investiture. So we all agree that objects can have Spiritwebs, that means that everything Invested has a Spiritweb. Also, as you said, Spiritwebs are the conduit of for Investiture, so I canno't see how it can be made of Investiture. Unless Investiture is a really broad concept, about as broad as matter. As for the energy coming from Investiture, I agree. What I meant is that the place this Investiture is stored, where it comes from, is through Connections, mapped in the Spiritweb, since the Spiritweb contains all Connections of the being. So, in that sense, all Investiture comes from the Spiritweb (from the Connections in it), and so all the enregy for the Invested arts comes from the Spiritweb. This might not be true for an object that is Invested by itself, since it might be Invested by itself. On 10/31/2023 at 11:19 PM, therunner said: Could be a way to look at it, though it seems very complex. What would be the advantage of this viewpoint? I'm really just trying to start from the simplest representation for this. Do you have an idea for a simpler one? On 10/31/2023 at 11:19 PM, therunner said: Additional argument for usage of QFT is the fact that PR is 'just' our world + Investiture stuff, and since QFT is good for description of our reality, so it should be good to describe large part of PR too. Yes. I agree. So we do accept that Frotune, Investiture, Identity and Connections should be either QFs. Although, I don't want to abandon the ideas that some of them could be geometric aspects of space, more related to GR in a sense. This would be hard (if possible) to reconcile with our attempt to describe this as an extension of QFT, but perhaps describing some phenomena as GR phenomena would give better results. On 10/31/2023 at 11:19 PM, therunner said: This is problematic condition, since different points around specific subastral lead to different subastrals (see map of Rosharan CR). Yes, this is an issue... One might think why there are only four directions to these... We could be looking at a complex three dimensional polyhedron rather then a two dimensional object, where every subastral is a complex two dimensional object, and Expenses are the planes connecting between those. In that since, a subastral that has four expenses connected to it is a quadrilateral. Anyway, as you've said, the mapping is not perfect, but changing the single point of least perception to an area of least perception, removing anything that is more then infiniticimal from the sphere in PR, would result in a line boarder instead of a point border, affectivly removing the boundry condition in CR I presented in the original mapping. I think this solves that issue, though it doesn't tell us much about the structure of CR or the subastrals. On 10/31/2023 at 11:19 PM, therunner said: Theoretically we could plug in string theory, and treat PR and CR as 4-branes, but frankly I think that is overkill (more of a fun thought ) Nothing is overkill! Everything we do here is just fun thoughts  I think string theory is a bit to advanced for me just yet, but I would love to hear a (simplified?) explanation about this. On 10/31/2023 at 11:19 PM, therunner said: The discussion in this WoB implies that particular features of CR are result of thought, CR itself is not (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5671). Specifically the part where Brandon talks about island that no one knows and things about would slowly vanish into the CR. This is a good point. I will point out a very recent WoB from today's stream, where he said that the ideals in SR are created from human thought. So, while the realms themself are a not caused by thought, the thing that exist in them are. I think this gives us a pretty good place to start: The dimensional space itself, the vaccum, exists independetly of thoughts, while some QFs are created by thought and Percetpion. I think this requires Perception to be a QF. On 10/31/2023 at 11:19 PM, therunner said: Again, Allomancy is Invested Art i.e. manipulation and usage of Investiture to achieve effects (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15257) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15257), manifestation of Investiture is different way of saying the same thing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14446). Allomancy is the same category as Surgebinding on Roshar, a magical system of using Investiture. For example, Metallic arts are not fundamental, they were created (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8486) when Scadrial was created. If Scadrial was destroyed, and Harmony left for different planet, Allomancy could stop existing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15703). All the magic arts are tapping into same underlying mechanism (e.g. being powered by Investiture, metals affecting them etc.), but they are not the Investiture itself. But Stormlight, Breaths, Godmetals are Investiture and existed since the moment Shards did. We even see Allomancy be powered by different Investiture in TLM, when they use Dor jars. Just like Surgebinding uses Lights to be powered. It is not purely lingual conflict. We know that Lights/Breaths/Mists/Dor/Godmetals are Investiture, we are told this both in-world and out. Same way, we know that Allomancy/Steelpushing/Surgebinding/Awakening etc. is not Investiture, but Invested Art, i.e. usage of Investiture to achieve some effect. Again, this is confirmed both in-world and out. Yes, I finally see what you mean. Maybe I just needed time away to think about this. Those objects are Investiture in PR, which means that the Investiture QF must extend through all three realms, in some manner. This reaises a question: Let's take a block of godmetal. It is Investiture. Can I make it Invested? For instance, if it's in the shape of a hand, can I Awaken it? Or perhaps store Stormlight in it? Put a different type of Investiture in it? Perhaps it will just reject it by difference of Intent, but what I mean is more of a foundational property: If Investiture manifests as Fermions, what does it mean to be Invested? Maybe it just means that your Spiritweb holds Investitons? Do those objects have Spritwebs? I don't think so. Maybe for this reason they cannot hold Investiture. I'm just throwing thoughts, but what do you think? On 11/7/2023 at 11:25 AM, therunner said: So perhaps it is less that you exist as 3D entity in SR, and more that you get 'encoded' into SR information, your Connection changes, and then you are 'decoded' back into PR? So you 'passthrough', but as information, not as material entity. This makes sense to me. We could use this as a hint for the data structure. For instance, for the number of DF that this data structure would require (using QT): enough to encode a density matrix. So, C{2} -> C, at least. On 11/8/2023 at 12:31 AM, IlstrawberrySeed said: or use high Demensional rotation for identical topology in sub-spaces using 3 dimensions. This sounds really interesting, can you explain a bit further? I'm not sure I got everything you meant by that. Also welcome to the discussion I do like Seeker's answer. This brings back the idea that the subastral itself is constructed by Perception. While CR is there already, the Perception does shape it into concepts, even creating gravity, i.e. shaping the geometry of spacetime in this region. The question that comes to mind because of this is does this effect of Perception actually dictates the mapping in such a significant way? If we can see it dictating such things as creating gravity, affecting curvature, could it affect other geometrical features? We know the expenses are much smaller then the space between the planets, because they are percieved less. So I think we can say that the Perception also affects the metric, acting in a similar way to relativity in the physical realm. A big asterisk on the last point, is that GR in PR works differently then in our world, since gravity is reliant on a Connection (as described in the arcanum about the surge of gravitation). This means it will probably work differently in CR as well. But the general idea, that the geometry of CR is affected by Perception, I think is a found idea. However, going back to Seeker's answer, some other questions raise: 1. Is the subastral completly flat, or does it have a curvature? The fact that there is a horizon, implies a curvature. Does that mean the entire of the CR is a on a sphere? Or perhaps another kind of sheet? Are there edges to the CR map? 2. How does Perception affect CR? It seems that Seeker implies that its individual, each person affecting their own view of CR: Would two people walking into CR at the same point but in opposite original position have opposite downs? Or would they bring a collective down with them, a sort of average? 3. Does this aspect of Perception affect souls? The recent WoB says that Ideals are created by Perception. Does this mean that Perception extends to SR as well? Affecting, perhaps the geometry, of SR? If we go by looking at SR in the platonic way, as Brandon seems to be implying repeatedly lately, each Ideal would be an axis, and we would have a n-dimensional data structure, where every soul would be a different amount of each Ideal. This would be viewed as a geometrical structue, which is affected by Perception, but perhaps this is a stretch. Well, it's 6 AM here, I've been writing for the last hour and a half, since the stream ended. I'll go to sleep now. I'm not sure everything I wrote here makes sense, because I barely slept tonight. If it doesn't please tell me
alder24 Posted December 20, 2023 Posted December 20, 2023 10 hours ago, idanstark42 said: So we all agree that objects can have Spiritwebs, that means that everything Invested has a Spiritweb. Also, as you said, Spiritwebs are the conduit of for Investiture, so I canno't see how it can be made of Investiture. Unless Investiture is a really broad concept, about as broad as matter. A spirit web is made out of investiture too: Spoiler Doom-Slayer So how do the exact mechanics of Feruchemy in relation to Compounding work? This confusion is primarily around how [the Lord Ruler] gets his near infinite age. Okay. So first off, I understand the concept of how they work. Feruchemy is net zero, Allomancy is net positive, combine them and you end with a net positive Feruchemy ability. So how Feruchemy normally works... you take say weight, store half your normal weight and then you can access it whenever you want. So you (originally X weight) are taking A weight, storing it, and then you are at (X-A) weight, with access to A. So we have a metalmind that store magnitude with the efficiency of how its received based on how quickly or slowly it is drawn upon. All the metalminds except atium seem to act this way. Atium seems to work as storing magnitude/time rather than just magnitude. The way I understand it is that say a 30 year old person becomes 50 years old for 1 day, this would give access to 20 years difference for a 1 day period. The Lord Ruler then exploits this by gaining access to say 20 years difference over 10 days (magnification by Compounding) which he then slowly feeds into himself to lower his age. Why this difference? I'm assuming its to maintain a neutral "body age" because with just magnitude a person could permanently make themselves younger by Compounding. With just magnitude of "20 years of youth" being stored, if the Lord Ruler magnified it, he could turn it into "200 years of youth" and then he would never need the constant stream off youth (and wouldn't have died without the bracelets) Hope this makes sense. Brandon Sanderson All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this. First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.) The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say. (Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well. However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true. So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change. This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be. Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult. Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.) General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 20, 2015)  10 hours ago, idanstark42 said: This reaises a question: Let's take a block of godmetal. It is Investiture. Can I make it Invested? Yes, Atiumminds for example. 10 hours ago, idanstark42 said: For instance, if it's in the shape of a hand, can I Awaken it? Technically yes, practically no. It's like Awakening a Shardblade, it already is "Awaken" but with enough investiture you can do that. Atiumminds might be a black swan because either they're not pure Atium (but an alloy), or Feruchemy deals with so little investiture that the system can squeeze in that extra investiture into the god metal. But just like with other metalminds, there is still a limit of how much investiture you can add to Atiumminds. It might be just the nature of Feruchemy that easily allows to invest god metals, unlike any other invested art, which is not an explanation in the context of this topic. Spoiler Questioner Can you awaken a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson Can you Awaken a Shardblade? A Shardblade would already be defined as Awakened, by the magic systems. Questioner And what about the Plate? Brandon Sanderson Plate would already be defined as probably too heavily Invested to Awaken because it already is. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)  Spoiler Questioner Could you Awaken a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson Uhhhhhh yes but it would reeeeeaaaalllllllyyyyy hard. Theoretically possible. Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)  11 hours ago, idanstark42 said: 1. Is the subastral completly flat, or does it have a curvature? The fact that there is a horizon, implies a curvature. Does that mean the entire of the CR is a on a sphere? Or perhaps another kind of sheet? Are there edges to the CR map? It's flat, like a table-flat flat. I think. But there is local elevation and that combined with perspective, makes the horizon . There is some distortion too. I would say it's infinitely flat, it doesn't have any edge, it's not like a table, but like our universe, which is also flat. But unlike our universe, CR is more or less on one plane. Spoiler Dirigible's sister Is the Cognitive Realm flat or spherical? Brandon Sanderson The Cognitive Realm is this weird thing, where it's flat, but it's distorted. Dirigible's sister Yeah, 'cause I was going to say, if you make a globe flat... Brandon Sanderson You can walk from one planet to the next. So it's got really weird...the spatial reasoning doesn't work the same way. Calamity Denver signing (Feb. 19, 2016)  That's it for my contribution to this fascinating topic. I'm not smart enough to add more.Â
idanstark42 he/him Posted December 20, 2023 Author Posted December 20, 2023 6 hours ago, alder24 said: That's it for my contribution to this fascinating topic. I'm not smart enough to add more. You are very smart and your contribution is amazing! Keep it coming 6 hours ago, alder24 said: A spirit web is made out of investiture too: Yes, I agree that Investiture is a crucial part of the Spiritweb. The question is, if Investiture is a QF, what is the geometric restraints required for Spiritwebs and SR in general for it to be able to "contain" (encode information about) it? Also, SR must also have the energy stored in that Investiture, in order to keep the conservation of energy. 6 hours ago, alder24 said: Technically yes, practically no. It's like Awakening a Shardblade, it already is "Awaken" but with enough investiture you can do that. Atiumminds might be a black swan because either they're not pure Atium (but an alloy), or Feruchemy deals with so little investiture that the system can squeeze in that extra investiture into the god metal. But just like with other metalminds, there is still a limit of how much investiture you can add to Atiumminds. It might be just the nature of Feruchemy that easily allows to invest god metals, unlike any other invested art, which is not an explanation in the context of this topic Great! So now the question is whether we can interpret that Investiture as being solely in PR, like electric charges: a excited state of a QF bound to the entity by some interaction, or perhaps we have to see it as an object going through all realms at the same time, as described here, in which every Investiton exists in all three realms simultaneously (not as a quantum superposition, but instead the same way that particles in our world exist in all three spatial dimensions)? Thinking about this could bring us to conclusions about the structure of the three realms. 7 hours ago, alder24 said: It's flat, like a table-flat flat. I think. But there is local elevation and that combined with perspective, makes the horizon . There is some distortion too. I would say it's infinitely flat, it doesn't have any edge, it's not like a table, but like our universe, which is also flat. But unlike our universe, CR is more or less on one plane. So if I understand correctly, it's not a plane, but some other copmlex geometric shape, perhaps not even a smooth one. This is very interesting. I wonder what we can find about the geometry of this space and how it's being dictated.
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