idanstark42

So, I had some thoughts about the pressure issue. We this happen a few times. Vin and Kel smashing a coin, Wax smashing a gun. For this to work we need the forces inside the metal to create stress. This means they enact different force on different parts of the metal. What if the metal acts like a conductor for electric field, with very large Debye length? That would mean the force would get weaker and weaker in the material, and create a force gradient that could cause two oposing forces to collapse the coin. Thoughts?

That's really cool! I'll start using this If we do that, we need to take into account the atmosphere and greenhosue effects

I didn't use the time period equation on the planet and the giant, but on the dward and the giant. The planet will, of course, have the same time period as the whole system, and its mass is negligable. I did go back to check my calculations, and indeed I made some arithmetical errors (that's what happens when you do math too late at night). I still get something different then you, a much larger time period. Here is my calculations (for giant with luminosity 10^5): R (distance between giant and dwarf) = 400 AU = 5.98391483e13 meters m1 (mass of the dwarf star) = 0.5 Msun = 9.945e29 kg m2 (mass of the dwarf star) = 22.5 Msun = 4.47525e31 kg T (time period) = 5.26650248e10 sec = 1668 years When putting the distances I got, I get: For L=10^5 we get T=1539-1860 years For L=10^6 we get T=8660-10,450 years I think all in all these calculations are still a bit half-harzedous. If you have ideas for something more rigorous I would love to hear. Is there maybe additional information I didn't use that would help us cut some of these ranges?

After reading this topic: I thought to look at other places in the cosmere. Most of them are missing some details that would allow similar calculations. Taldain is, however, a very unique system. The planet is placed in the L1 lagange point of a double star system. Those stars are also known to be a blue supergiant and a white dwarf, which gives as an approximation for their size, masses, temperature and luminosity. Assumptions: Dayside is a desert, and water evaporate pretty quickly when outside, so Taldain would be in the lower 30% of the habitable zone The Luminosity of the white dwarf is negligable (it's much weaker then the supergiant, and is surrounded by a particulate ring) The Luminosity of the blue supergiant is between 10^5-10^6 suns. The mass of the white dwarf is about 0.6 suns, and the mass of the supergiant is around 22.5 suns. The mass of the planet is negligable. Using the same formula from the original post for the distance between the blue supergiant and the planet, we get that the distance between the planet and the supergiant is r=301-342 AU for a supergiant with luminosity 10^5 suns, and r=953-1080 AU for a supergiant with luminosity 10^6. Using these distances and the formulas for the L1 lagange point i'ts easy to calcuate the distance between the dwarf star and the supergiant (r is the distance between L1 and the dwarf star): For L=10^5 we get R=379-430 AU For L=10^6 we get R=1199-1359 AU Using this formula (time period for circular motion in a gravitational system): The time period is: For L=10^5 we get T=37-45 years For L=10^6 we get T=210-254 years Any thoughts?

Have you posted this anywhere? I loved the steelpush physics thread the @DrPhysics referenced, I'm sure I'd love to see your model.

There's a WoB about it being based off of gravitational time dialation, so I would say it has something with locally changing the metric. This is still, as @DrPhysics said, problematic with a lot of physical principles. WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/199/#e7747

You are very smart and your contribution is amazing! Keep it coming Yes, I agree that Investiture is a crucial part of the Spiritweb. The question is, if Investiture is a QF, what is the geometric restraints required for Spiritwebs and SR in general for it to be able to "contain" (encode information about) it? Also, SR must also have the energy stored in that Investiture, in order to keep the conservation of energy. Great! So now the question is whether we can interpret that Investiture as being solely in PR, like electric charges: a excited state of a QF bound to the entity by some interaction, or perhaps we have to see it as an object going through all realms at the same time, as described here, in which every Investiton exists in all three realms simultaneously (not as a quantum superposition, but instead the same way that particles in our world exist in all three spatial dimensions)? Thinking about this could bring us to conclusions about the structure of the three realms. So if I understand correctly, it's not a plane, but some other copmlex geometric shape, perhaps not even a smooth one. This is very interesting. I wonder what we can find about the geometry of this space and how it's being dictated.

Hi Have'nt been here in a while, but the latest spoiler stream got me going again I want to continue talking, even though I'm still in the middle of the QFT book I'm reading. So we all agree that objects can have Spiritwebs, that means that everything Invested has a Spiritweb. Also, as you said, Spiritwebs are the conduit of for Investiture, so I canno't see how it can be made of Investiture. Unless Investiture is a really broad concept, about as broad as matter. As for the energy coming from Investiture, I agree. What I meant is that the place this Investiture is stored, where it comes from, is through Connections, mapped in the Spiritweb, since the Spiritweb contains all Connections of the being. So, in that sense, all Investiture comes from the Spiritweb (from the Connections in it), and so all the enregy for the Invested arts comes from the Spiritweb. This might not be true for an object that is Invested by itself, since it might be Invested by itself. I'm really just trying to start from the simplest representation for this. Do you have an idea for a simpler one? Yes. I agree. So we do accept that Frotune, Investiture, Identity and Connections should be either QFs. Although, I don't want to abandon the ideas that some of them could be geometric aspects of space, more related to GR in a sense. This would be hard (if possible) to reconcile with our attempt to describe this as an extension of QFT, but perhaps describing some phenomena as GR phenomena would give better results. Yes, this is an issue... One might think why there are only four directions to these... We could be looking at a complex three dimensional polyhedron rather then a two dimensional object, where every subastral is a complex two dimensional object, and Expenses are the planes connecting between those. In that since, a subastral that has four expenses connected to it is a quadrilateral. Anyway, as you've said, the mapping is not perfect, but changing the single point of least perception to an area of least perception, removing anything that is more then infiniticimal from the sphere in PR, would result in a line boarder instead of a point border, affectivly removing the boundry condition in CR I presented in the original mapping. I think this solves that issue, though it doesn't tell us much about the structure of CR or the subastrals. Nothing is overkill! Everything we do here is just fun thoughts I think string theory is a bit to advanced for me just yet, but I would love to hear a (simplified?) explanation about this. This is a good point. I will point out a very recent WoB from today's stream, where he said that the ideals in SR are created from human thought. So, while the realms themself are a not caused by thought, the thing that exist in them are. I think this gives us a pretty good place to start: The dimensional space itself, the vaccum, exists independetly of thoughts, while some QFs are created by thought and Percetpion. I think this requires Perception to be a QF. Yes, I finally see what you mean. Maybe I just needed time away to think about this. Those objects are Investiture in PR, which means that the Investiture QF must extend through all three realms, in some manner. This reaises a question: Let's take a block of godmetal. It is Investiture. Can I make it Invested? For instance, if it's in the shape of a hand, can I Awaken it? Or perhaps store Stormlight in it? Put a different type of Investiture in it? Perhaps it will just reject it by difference of Intent, but what I mean is more of a foundational property: If Investiture manifests as Fermions, what does it mean to be Invested? Maybe it just means that your Spiritweb holds Investitons? Do those objects have Spritwebs? I don't think so. Maybe for this reason they cannot hold Investiture. I'm just throwing thoughts, but what do you think? This makes sense to me. We could use this as a hint for the data structure. For instance, for the number of DF that this data structure would require (using QT): enough to encode a density matrix. So, C{2} -> C, at least. This sounds really interesting, can you explain a bit further? I'm not sure I got everything you meant by that. Also welcome to the discussion I do like Seeker's answer. This brings back the idea that the subastral itself is constructed by Perception. While CR is there already, the Perception does shape it into concepts, even creating gravity, i.e. shaping the geometry of spacetime in this region. The question that comes to mind because of this is does this effect of Perception actually dictates the mapping in such a significant way? If we can see it dictating such things as creating gravity, affecting curvature, could it affect other geometrical features? We know the expenses are much smaller then the space between the planets, because they are percieved less. So I think we can say that the Perception also affects the metric, acting in a similar way to relativity in the physical realm. A big asterisk on the last point, is that GR in PR works differently then in our world, since gravity is reliant on a Connection (as described in the arcanum about the surge of gravitation). This means it will probably work differently in CR as well. But the general idea, that the geometry of CR is affected by Perception, I think is a found idea. However, going back to Seeker's answer, some other questions raise: 1. Is the subastral completly flat, or does it have a curvature? The fact that there is a horizon, implies a curvature. Does that mean the entire of the CR is a on a sphere? Or perhaps another kind of sheet? Are there edges to the CR map? 2. How does Perception affect CR? It seems that Seeker implies that its individual, each person affecting their own view of CR: Would two people walking into CR at the same point but in opposite original position have opposite downs? Or would they bring a collective down with them, a sort of average? 3. Does this aspect of Perception affect souls? The recent WoB says that Ideals are created by Perception. Does this mean that Perception extends to SR as well? Affecting, perhaps the geometry, of SR? If we go by looking at SR in the platonic way, as Brandon seems to be implying repeatedly lately, each Ideal would be an axis, and we would have a n-dimensional data structure, where every soul would be a different amount of each Ideal. This would be viewed as a geometrical structue, which is affected by Perception, but perhaps this is a stretch. Well, it's 6 AM here, I've been writing for the last hour and a half, since the stream ended. I'll go to sleep now. I'm not sure everything I wrote here makes sense, because I barely slept tonight. If it doesn't please tell me

It is the physical distance dictated by the Connection, which is spiritual. The idea is that the spiritual connection creates a physical force that tries to get the distance to match it, that force is proportional to all the things we've seen so far (mass of metal, strength of allomancer, duraloumin, etc.), but also inversly proportional to the sqaure of the distance, like any field force. I couldn't find the descending scene you talked about, but then again I had to search it online since I don't have the books here with me. In this model, you can slow down, when the force of the Connection is smaller then the force of gravity. Since the rigidity k of the Connection is finite. The equillibrium point would be somewhere in the middle of the air, so you cannot go all the way to the ground. You would have to switch your push on and off to calibrate your falling pace (similar to the PWM I mentioned earlier). Each time you turn off the pushing, the Connection length R resents to the new physical distance r, creating a new, lower, point of equillibrium. This will allow you to eventually, reach the ground. Again, the scene is not in front of me, but if there is a way to slow my descend (creating an average force smaller then mg), and a way to push myself upwards (creating an average force greater then mg), then there must be a way to calibrate the force, regardless of the distance. This model was meant to show distance relation. Calibration of the force by the allomancer, in my opinion, is best explained by PWM or something similar, but there might be a source I'm unaware of that removes this option.

Yes, in this model, all dependency on r is direct. If alpha is not constant, I don't see it as related to the distance. Perhaps to the power, as energy is drawn from the body of Preservation. Can you explain the percise situation this doesn't explain? Because I'm not sure I understand what you're referring. Do we see actual damping in the book? Or do we just not see oscilations? I think that without knowing that for certain we could say that it is very close to critically damped. We could add a damping force to the Connection itself, if neccesary. I did not run the numbers themselves (I don't think we have actualy numebrs, do we? If we did it would make it much easier to check)

You're right of course. I forgot about this. I see two interesting things in this part: the one where he said he went with his gut, and the part where he talks about fundamental forces. Fundamental forces mean that this is something behind metals per se, and we could look at a Connection at the fermionic scale, I would love to connect this to soemthing like the orbitals and the solutions to the Spherical Laplace's Equation, but for now I don't see if that's possible.

Ok, so here is the model. There are two ideas here: 1. The force is an inverse squared force (sort of) 2. The force is based on Connection. Let's start with the first. Given that the force is a simple inverse sqaured force with a constant nominator F = k/r^2 When one pushes on a coin (we'll get to the third law in a minute, assume for now that the push is strong enough to push the person upwards), there will be a point of equillibrium in the middle of the air: mg = k/r^2 r = sqrt(k/mg) Pretty basic stuff so far. This will be true of course for any force reducing with distance, so the only reason to hang on to the inverse sqaure model is that we are working in 3d, and this is just the rule for field forces in 3d. However, this idea solves, I think, our 1st law problem: depending on the strength of air resistance and friction, the initial position, and the constant k, there will be an oscillation period or there will not be (depending on the total damping ratio). This could be a tool to calculate possible values of k, since we know that for the most part there were'nt oscillations in the book, or if there were they were very small. Now for the second idea. This, I think, is the more far-fetched, but the one that solves our 3rd law problem. The idea is that the blue line, which is a visualization of the Spiritual Connection between the metal and the allomancer, dictates the distance between them directly, yet it has some form of elasticity. This means, that the actual force applied follows: F = k * (R - r) Where r is the current distance and R is the distance spelled by the connection. In this idea, Steelpushing allows the allomanct to add length to that Connection, and Ironpulling allows them to remove length from that Connection. This does not follow the inverse square that I talked about above, but I'll merge the two ideas in a minute. Let's assume the rate of adding length is constant R = r0 + αt Where r0 is the initial distance, and therefore the initial length of the connection, and α is the speed of the connection. For simplicity let's define r0 = 0. The force is then: F = k * (αt - r) = mr'' This simple equation is solved into r = αt + c1*sin(ωt)+ c2*cos(ωt), ω = sqrt(k/m) Which shouldn't be a surprise. I don't know yet what the right rate of change is for the length of the Connection, but something tells me it won't really be constant. What this does promise is that we have the position of the person which is directly connected with the position of the pushed object. Solving for the two body problem, first when they are both free and then when one is non-moving, we get the result of pushing on a coin: When the coin is in the air, the allomancer would be only slightly pushed, depending on the relation to the total mass of the system, and when it's on the ground, it will be pushed with the entirety of the force. So we have two seperate solutions, one for the 1st law problem and one for the 3rd law problem. Now we need to combine them. The combination I thought about is simply to put the second solution into the nominator of the inverse sqaure law. This made sense to me since in this model the strength of the power comes from adding the length to the Connection, but it can the constant k can still be modified using the inverse square law. We would get something like: F = k * (R - r) / r^2 Putting R = αt and solving is not so simple this time (I didn't have time to fight over this equation, but if you find a solution I'd love to see ), but what we can do is see what the potential is. The potential for force for any specific R is φ = k(2R/r + ln(r)) Which has a minimum point at, of course, r = R. Add mgh to the potential (or in this case mgr) and you get a slightly lower point of equillibrium. The interesting thing is that the force itself has a maxima in 2R, after which it becomes weaker until it reachs 0 at infinity. So, we got a model that follows the 1st and 3rd law requirements and work with WoBs and things we know about the world. The things that this model does not take into account and are very interesting: - What affects the constant k? We talked about mass of the allomancer, mass of the object maybe? metalic compund? what else? - What about the coin bending, breaking, flattenning or staying in the air? This model doesn't explain those issues. So what do you think?

Hi! I wanted to write here for a while now, but got busy with other things. I have a model I want to suggest, which is a submodel of @DrPhysics's model, with a few specificities that are meant to solve the issues brought up here. But before that, I have a few thoughts about specific topics brought up here: 1. Modulation of force: It seems from all accounts that modulation of the force is probably impossible, and what is possible is using PWM to control the average force over time. This made sense to me because of Kelsier's quote where he says to turn the poewr on and off. I thought that better control of the "strength" would be to learn to turn the power on and off quickly enoguh to have better control over the final result. 2. Mass of Invested objects: Invested objects are known to have some wierd things happening with them and mass. I always assumed this to be a non-classical effect, either reletavistic or quantum, and so I don't think we need to regard it in this model, since allomancers and the metals they control are usually not that invested. 3. Steelpushing/Ironpulling & Electromagnetic forces: I think there is a WoB that says those are definity not electromagnetic forces. They of course cannot be directly electric or magnetic forces, since they work on all metal and not just on those that are electrically charged or have some specific form of magnetism (ferromagnetic/paramagnetic). This brings up the question: what about transition metals? I mean, steel is technically a metal-nonmetal compund (iron & carbon in the books). What makes a material "metal"? I think, since we are talking about the cosmere here, and I will justify this in my model, that this "metal" a spiritual/cognitive idea defined into the connection that Preservation created when he created Allomancy. Finishing here because this is getting long, and I'll add the model in another comment.

Ok. We've been at it for a while, so I want to make some organization about our discussion here: I think we exhusted the discussion about terminology, and we can put this aside, because, at least to me, this is the least interesting part here. The discussions that I think are worth continuing are: A. The structure of the Spiritual Realm A.1. Does SR have a temporal dimension? I think I agree that SR must have a shared temporal dimension with the other Realms, since we can see a Spiritweb being different at different points in time. I thoguht about the issue with causality, but since you can only see posibilities, we could say that SR somehow contaisn data about the current mixed state of the system, and the probability for every pure state (density operator?). Overall, I think I agree that SR must have a temporal dimension. A.2. What can represent Spiritwebs, Identity, Connections and Intent? We need to understand better those structures, in order to think about a structure for them. I do like the structure I built in the article, but let's put that aside and think abuot them in general. Here are some things we know: - SR is made of Spirtiwebs and Connections between them - A Spirtiwebs is mapped somehow to and obejct in CR and PR. This is not a mapping to a coordinate in those realms, but to an object, maybe a complex wave function. The limit of what is part of the object and was isn't vary. - Different Connections have different properties - A object, that is mapped to a Spiritweb, can be Invested, and can have Intent. - The Spiritweb, should be able to have, or at least transfer, energy in some manner in order to keep the conservation of energy (for example, the kinetic energy supplied to a steelpushed coin) Things this makes me think about: The set of all Connections could be viewed as a binary function from the set of all Spirtiwebs to some complex data structure representing the strength and nature of a specific Connection (f: S X S -> C where S is the set of all Spiritwebs and C is the set of all possible Connection attributes). This sounds like this might call for usage of graph theory. Are there objects in QFT which are not QF and can have (or transfer) energy? This is assuming we are going to use QFT as a framework (which we must, since black body radiation have been mentioned in universe). About SR sharing the same QF as PR, I don't think one could be in the Spiritual Realm, or at least, I don't think that a body can be there. Do you have any evidance of that? It should be able to interact with PR, but that doesn't require them to have the QFs, right? B. The structure of the Cognitive Realm 1. How can there be a mapping from PR to CR? So you just walk anywhere and get off planet? So I can draw a circle in CR and say "this is the subastral"? You could map like this: Let θ,ϕ be the coordinates for the sphere, and r,ϕ be the coordinates for the plane. let R be the radius of the circle on the plane. The transformation can be defined as ϕ = ϕ r = R*sin(θ/2) This would cause only one point of "discontinuity", which in the planar version would be the circumfrence, and in the spherical version we could call the least percieved point, since this is a good theory of where it would emerge. If this model is correct, then the only physical solutions would be such that the wave function is smooth in both the sphere and the plane. Since there is already a periodic boundary condition in ϕ in both of them, what is left for us to make sure is the boundary condition on the circumfrence of the plane that says that Ψ(R, ϕ) is not dependent on ϕ. This does mean that all points around a subastral are basically the same, but this is the only condition we get. The fact that we only get conditions on CR is nice, but it is a really weird condition. I don't think moving through this is possible. Perhaps another solution would be required, like saying that the least percieved point really isn't mapped, and for a person to be there it must be percieved by them. 2. What is CR in relation to PR? As you've said, there are people in CR, so the QF from PR must extend there as well. I see here two options: - PR and CR together form a R^{6,1} spacetime. - PR and CR are two R^{3,1} subspaces in a R^{4,1} spacetime (or perhaps a R^{3,1} X { C, P }). I see more sense in the latter, since it allows to explain perpendicularities as a 4D version of an Einstein–Rosen bridge, and because I think it better represent the conditions under which matter can move from one to the other. I still don't think this description is close to complete, since I do believe that SR also has a great influence on this structure. 3. Does Perception cause the existance of CR or simply effects its geometrical properties? I don't think we have the tools to answer this question, but without WoB I don't think we can know definitly right now. C. Investiture 1. What is Investiture? Where does it exist? I just want to quote the coppermind on Allomancy on this (quoted from Ars Arcanum of TLM): I went to the original quote, and there it is referred to as a manifestation of Investiture: Allomancy, and as such, steelpushing, isn't the usage of Investiture, it is a manifestation of Investiture. My point is, the terminology is confusing, and we should be careful about it. Let's say that Stormlight, Breaths and Godmetals are really all Investiture, how could Allomancy be one as well, if it has nothing Fermionic about it? I don't see a solution to this purely lingual conflict. I think the best solution here is to say that those aren't really Investiture, and think back about what is. BTW looking at our universe through a lense of "charges are dimensions" could be actually very interesting I think

And I could say that matter is just excited states of quantum fields, and exited states are just states with additional energy over the ground states, so you could say that all matter is just different configurations of energy. In the quantum level, the world is just numbers. I wanted to use names for Fermions and Bosons that could allow people to understand, intuitivly, what their roles are. More precisely, I wanted to use the original wording in the question I reference in the begining of the thread, where they asked Brandon about energy-matter equivillence. Brandon says that in the cosmere, there is matter, energy and a third thing called Investiture. We agree that Investiture should be a type of QF. So I thought to myself: the two known types of QF I know of are Fermions and Bosons. What would be a third? This is where Anyons come from, and where the usage of the words "energy particles" and "matter particles" comes from. Here is a WoB on the subject: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1663 I find it the opposite. You bring forth a rule: every QF that exist over one dimension must exist over all of them. I ask: why? I am looking at a broader set of options. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e612 Yes! This is one of the things I love about this theory. If, for some reason related to SR and PR, CR is created from the Preception of people, the mapping would change according to some Perception Tensor. This would cause planets to have their own percieved gravity, and distances might even act like they do on the planet. The question that rises from this is, given a subastral of some planet, how would one travel outside of it to another subastral? Where is the passage on the map of the planet? I don't think we ever saw someone do that (maybe Kel in Secret History but I don't remember). Perhaps it is in the "least perceived" point, though this is not weel defined without defining what Perception really is. We could look at the discontinuity as a boundry condition and describe as smooth fields inside each subastral, then patch them together to create the between. Well, the Investiture Coppermind page is full of speculations, but I did some extra reading about this. Steelpushing is not a result of EM interactions, since it works on neutrally charged metals and on all types of metals (excluding aluminum). Lashing is a result of changing the "Gravitational Spiritual Connection", meaning that is some change in SR, not in the PR gravitational field. Awakening is never really exlained in deapth, but that is, I believe, some of the point. I do have an explanation for it in the article, but you opposed a lot of the points leading up to it so far, so I don't see a reason to get into it right now. Regardless, we don't know what Investiture is. We are merely guessing based on what is said in world. Those examples, Stomrlight, Voidlight, Dor, Godmetals, we don't know that they are Investiture itself. We know what Investiture is not. Investiture is neither matter nor energy (exept that everything is energy). It's something third. Those examples all act like matter, but Investiture is not matter. So maybe those are not really Investiture, but results of its interactions with QF in PR. These are all, again, just theories and speculations. So I say not that Steelpushing/Lashing/Awakening are Investiture in the sense that they are Invesisture based interactions the way EM interactions are based on photons, but that they are Investiture in the same way that Stormlight, Voidlight and godmetals are Investiture. Investiture is not really contained in PR. It transceds the three realms. What does that mean? Well, I think this model does work: As mentioned above, it does not have a temporal dimension. yes, it must contain information about Spirits someway, and so it must have some dimensions. I called them spacial, because having those dimensions as a different set of spatial dimensions, because any property there could be mathematically viewed as a quantum number, and thus we can describe this as over a spacial dimension. This gives us the ability to use the same physical description for those properties, and gain a simple model for the passage of energy between the two. Interesting. I do have to learn about this in greater depths (currently working on it ). How does that work with conservation of spin? If I have a single fermion interacting with a bosonic field creating a single boson, how does spin conserve? Well, they can in some cases. Torus and sphere can both be smoothly mapped to a plane. But perhaps you are right. I'm not sure it would have to be continuous. And I don't see the problem with 2-D properties. One more thing about Realmatic theory. When you have a position in CR, you are in CR, you do not have a defined position in PR. This makes me thing of PR and CR as two subspaces, perpendicular to one another, and an entity can be in either one of them. In this sense, we would have in total a space that looks like R^{3,1} X { C, P } X SR, whatever SR is. Here C, and P are two optional values for wether you are in CR or PR. In this description, mapping the two is more possible, and passing between the two can be thought about more like it said in the books. Thank you! I'm off to do some actual work since I've been on this for the better part of three hours now I am learning a lot, so thank you

Well, I agree with you and I disagree with you. It's obvious that both Bosons and Fermions exist in matter, since complex structures require both "objects" and forces that hold the together. And yes, most of the mass in the protons doesn't come from Fermions, but that is just because quarks have a ridiculously low mass compared to the strong interaction. I think the best way to understand what I mean is to regard this comparasion: Fermi gas is matter (white dwarves), while Bose gas is radiation (Black Body radiation for example). This is, of course, exluding complex particles. For this reason, I do think in order to understand what Bosons and Fermions are in daily terms, those names are a good descriptor. But I do agree with you that we do not want to propegate the idea that matter is only built on Fermions or that radiation is only built on Bosons. Yes, I tried this method before reaching my current one. SR still needs some data structure to include data about each Spiritweb's Connections, Intent, Identity, Fortune and Investiture. The data structure in the article is the best one I could come up with, but I would love to start over with some extra help . What I though was that if the dimensinos of each Realm are perpendicular to one another then due to simple superposition I could look at the them seperatly. Then I thought to take one step backwards and ask why must all of those dimensions have the same QFs? Why should there be photons in SR? How many dimensions does it really have? And If all those dimensions exist in all places and times as one (since according to WoB SR does not share PR and CR's time, giving some entitied the ability to look into the pas and the future), what are the dimensions of SR? More over, thinking about CR as an additional set of dimensions perpendicular to PR doesn't seem to describe it very well. There is a clear mapping between the two. I think looking at it as another set of fields over the same 3+1 D is probably more accurate. I didn't yet have answers for that when writing the article, but I'm starting to think that if I could model SR as a spacetime, then that spacetime would be spanned by all possible Ideals. But this, too, is just a postulation. I agree that Stormlight, Voidlight, Dor, Godmetals, all seem to be Fermionic manifestations of Investiture. We cannot ignore though, that Steelpushing/Ironpulling, Lashings, Awakening, those are also manifestation of Investiture. Not forces caused by its existance, like an electron causes electromagnetic waves, but the Investiture itself passes onto those forces, seemingly becoming the Bosons governing those interactions. There are other ways to make this work, as you've said, but given all possible theories I still think that Investiture being Anyons is the simplest one. Here is why: 1. The limitation of particles being Fermions or Bosons comes to us only in 3+1 D and above. There is no guarantee that the manifold(s) in SR over which QF run are not 2+1 D (again, in SRs own dimensions and spacetime). 2. Having a QF that can transfer all of its energy and spin to a QF in PR, both to a Bosonic and a Fermionic Field, requires either an anyon, a bosons which can split or fermions which can merge. All three are possible, but removing our 3+1 D preception, Investiture being anyons is the simplest one. The actual WoB about Investiture being in all three realms (at least the one quoted in The Coppermind) is this one: I think this is the one you quote. This was one of the places where I started, of course (starting a theory about Investiture without reading existing knowledge is not very wise). I thought about this with connection to what I said about CR and PR not being actually different dimensions, while SR acting like the data there is stored in different dimensions. This made me think that the actual two objects of this universe are SR and PR, and CR is a result of something between them. I started a theory about PR existing because of a missing dimension in the mapping between them, but I don't really like it. I do still think that CR is a result of the other two, but that is a discussion for another time. For now, for simplicity, let's focus on SR and PR, like we did so far. So I thought how can Investiture exist in two dimensions (at least one from SR and one from PR) at the same time? A vector sum of two perpendicular wave functions would not work, since the two would be independent. I needed a solution that says that wherever there is Investiture in one realm, there is Investiture in the other. My only way to model that was to simply say "there is Investiture in this Spiritweb (SR), and this Spiritweb is Connected to a position in PR". So I said that the Spiritweb is a manifold, over which there is a QF for Investiture, and that Manifold has a point where it is tangent to PR, and so energy can pass from it to PR at that point in the PR spacetime. The fact that Investiture doesn't really "exist" in PR, in the sense that the QF that contains it is not over that spacetime, but over another one, tangent to it, does bother me, but again, I couldn't find a better solution, and this seems to work. Whereever there is Investiture in SR, there is Investiture in PR. Yeah, this bothered me too. I thought about stripping Identity as injectly mapping (is this correct to say in english?) the Spiritweb into a plane, not removing any Connections or affecting any of the fields over it other then chaging the metric and Reimann Tensor. This results in the removal of all boundary conditions. In this sense, if you are still Connected to Preservation, you could still use pull on its Intent and use Feruchemy, but the stable excited states in your Spiritweb can pass into any Spiritweb, not only to yours. This is a bit combersome. Maybe a better model would look at it as its own QF that creates potential in the other ones. Or maybe even really a simple "index" of the Spiritweb, without needing to go into any QM for this. It just seems like a very elegant solution. Again, thank you for engagin in this conversation! I love learning from this, and I feel like I do learn a lot. Please let me know if you want to start this theory together from scratch, because I would love to try and see what we can come up with I forgot to respond to that. I do not yet have the group theory knowledge to do anything more then understand this, but I will study and get back to you. This does seem like a really interesting option, perhaps with very cool implications. I would love to hear more about this. Specifically. what we can deduct about group G from this? Do you think we could find specific elements of U(4) that correspond with specific shards?

Hi, thank you for commenting What I call matter is of course Fermions, and what I call energy is Bosons. I used laymen terms for them, both for people to understand, and because the article is presumably written in world, and so Boz and Fermi do not exist there. Of course both Fermions and Bosons can have both mass and energy, but since in QFT everything is energy, and different quantum fields that can contain it, I didn't see the need to expand on it. The reason to call Fermions "matter particles" is obvious: they follow Pauli's principle, and thus create complex constructs. First atoms, then molecules, and so on. The reason to call Bosons, or specifically gauge Bosons, "energy particles" is easy to see as well. They are responsible for passing energy between Fermions, by gauging the basic forces. The range I specified is the statistics range between BE and FD statistics, which has Fermions on one side, Bosons on the other, and the middle is filled with Anyons, with fractional statistics based on their phase. This isn't usually considered as a range between energy and matter, but I think this is, in laymen terms, a good explanation I think it what Anyons are. You have particles that create matter on one side, particles that PDF energy on the other, and I'm the middle you have a range of other particles, which address Anyons. I hope this makes sense, if not please tell me. I'm trying to explain the logic in my mind as best as I can, but I am new at this (both writing in forums and writing in scientific terms outside of tests) If we assume that Investiture is a QF, and according to WoBs it comes from the Spiritual Realm, the Spiritual Realm must contain Remannian manifolds over which the QF is defined. Those manifolds, while they don't exist in the same spacetime as the one of the Physical Realm, need their own spacetime. Having additional dimensions that are perpendicular to those of the Physical Realm, allows the singularity that is defined by that WoBs. Since when passing energy from the Investiture field to the QF in the Physical Realm we sometimes get Fermions and sometimes get Bosons, the Investiture QF should be able to create both. When asking what statistics they follows, we reach the answer "it depends", and so we must conclude that it is an Anyonic field (or that is Fermionic and energy is a complex particle, but I chose the simplest description). This means that, in this model, those manifolds only need to have 2+1 dimensions. Which are, I want to emphasize, not the same as the Physical Realm 3+1 dimensions. Actually, there is a WoB that states these 16 shards are not the only way Ado could have been shattered. Though the idea that U(4) is the symmetry group could still be viable. As for Identity, I suggest in the article that identity is encoded in the homotopy of Spiritweb manifolds, and that color (the quality for "which of the 16 shards this Investiture is ñ belongs to") is actually the family of solutions for Schrodinger's equation meeting different Identities (homotopy dictating boundary conditions) and Intents (Intent acting as potential field over the manifold). what do you think?

Maybe it can, if we think about it like something hanging off a rope. The type needs a slight angle in order for its tension to act against gravity. It can be the same here. If the coin is slightly higher then the allomancers, their pushes would act against gravity. That might not work if they start increasing the force, they should push the coin up, unless they also change the angle at the same time. Do you think we should open this in another thread, about steelpushing? This really isn't about the quantum description anymore

My line of thought was this: What we know is that they sometimes follow Pauli's principle (Dor, godmetals, stormlight, etc.), and sometimes not (Lashings, Steelpush/Ironpull, Awakening). According to that logic, they must sometimes be bosonic and sometimes fermionic. I thought about having two (or more) quantum fields that are considered "Investiture", and then the different "colors" of Investiture, i.e. the different Shards, being the different fields in this alternative standard model. Then I read that Brandon said that this devision of Shards is not the only one that was possible, and so I went away from that idea. I do believe that there is a lot to be tested here. Spoilers for about everything in the next part (RoW, The Sunlit Man, Warbreaker) Thank you I think you did great and I'm sorry too if I came to strong, I just really wanted to hear what someone who understands thinks about the part that I did the most work on. I had to learn a bit past my level to create some of this, and since the semester here is being delayed (I'm in Israel, and things are not great here to say the least), I decided that on my off time I would continue to learn into next year's and try and build an understanding towards QFT. Just learned about path integrals and continuing next to the WKB approximation (I know my order is a bit funky, I'm trying to make a sense of things without much guidance right now). Anyway, thank you for you input and advice, I do have a lot more learning to do, but it's nice to know I'm not totally off here Yes. You are definitly right. I want to continue and develop in these directions. Specifially, beyond my regular studies (mentioned above), I want to look into anyons (which are not part of the curriculum) for part 2, and spaces with non-integer dimensions for part 3. BTW, what did you think about parts 3 and 4? Tell me if I'm asking too much, but I would love to hear your opinions about the ideas: 1. That the Metric and Ryman Tensor of the Cognitive Realm are determined by a field of Perception 2. That the emission of light from a sphere is analogic to black body radiation As for the classical mechanics model, and specifically the Steelpush/Ironpull conundrum, I though about something after you asked me, and tell me if it's rediculus (also we should probably discuss this on a different thread, but we'll see if this becomes a whole conversation): The problem with Steelpush (and Ironpull, but let's focus on one), is the one you brought up, specifically we can look at three scenarios: 1. Pushing the coin against a wall/ground. The information of hitting the wall transfers somehow to the allomancer 2. Pushing the coin from two sides causes it not to move and creates stress inside the coin (as if pushing on it from the outside) 3. Pushing a coin against the ground when decending can cause a stop of the decent and even allow to hover. Consider the following model: The allomancer creates, at the moment it starts the steelpushing, something that acts like a spring between it and the coin (or another object, but let's say coin for terminology's sake). He then, if they steelpush, can only lengthen the spring, i.e. increasing its equilibrium length, or shorten it if they are ironpulling. The spring always starts with the rest length equals to the distance between them, and then gets more force the more the allomancer pushes. Keeping the spring active but not lengthening it, still requires a minimal flow of Investiture. The force would grow as long as the object stays in place. 1. In the first case the information of the coin hitting the wall will propagate as a mechanical wave thorugh the spring back to the allomancer, and push him back an instandt r/v (r = the distance to the wall, v = the speed of the wave in the spring) after the hit. 2. The forces of the two springs pushing on both sides can cause stress to the coin, assuming they are not on the exact same point (maybe the spring actually pushed from the outside of the coin?) 3. Pushing against the ground includes creating a spring that will slowly slow the allomancer down until reaching equillibrium. This model does answer the points you've made. The force goes along the field lines and the forces do become stresses inside the object. I have not touched the Investiture required, becuse I think I can think about this only after I do the math, and figure, for instance, how much work is being done here and if the force is really conervative in this instance. I haven't gotten to doing the math for this yet, but I will tomorrow probably, and I'll post the results here. It's not the most elegantic model, but it seems like, at least qualitativly it works. What do you think? All in all, it's fun to brainstorm theories. Thank you for engaing

Do you mean Iron Ferochemy? Because if so,I think that Iron allows to store the Connection to the Higgs Field, allowing more out less mass to be attributed to the axi

Yes! That's the great part! The spiritual realm is a singularity in space and time, but in order to contain any sort of data, or more specifically, energy, it must retain a mathematical structure that can be viewed as its own manifestation of a spacetime. That is not the same space and time as that of the Physical Realm, but rather a different set, working on its own. The meaning of space and time there is... fuzzy, but here are a few things I noticed: 1. The space there might not be 3 dimensional, maybe it's 6 or 21 or infinity dimensions. The important part the is that the manifolds in that space are two dimensional, so that they can contain anyons. 2. Time in our world is called Loretzian. This means that the theory of special relativity applies. While this is probably the case in the Physical Realm, this might not be the case in the Spiritual Realm. If this is indeed not the case, time can be viewed as just another dimension of space, no different then why it the other ones, and there is no meaning to the direction of time there. 3. Connections are based on two Spiritwebs sharing a slight touch where they go together for a very small area before splitting back. This is the most meaningful concept I could find for this space. Somehow generalizing this concept will get us to what this space is. Perhaps the space of Ideals, each axis representing a different Ideal. Then when they Spiritwebs touch it's because that specific part of them share exactly that same combination of amounts from each Ideal. Maybe. That was a great question! Thank you for taking interest!

Journey before destination my friend Here's the basic idea, for non physicts to understand. Please ask if you have questions. The debate is the point: part 1 Investiture causes forces in our world. Forces that can be quantified. I show one (very simplistic) example of this, making a lot of assumption to make life easier for me, since this is not the point of the article. The most important thing to take from here is that for Invested art to work you need both Investiture and Intent. Intent leads the Investiture to become energy, or matter. Not all uses of Investiture is allowed to anyone with Intent, you need other factors, that are discussed next. part 2 This is the interesting part. The idea is to show that since Investiture is neither energy nor matter, it must be something else. A third kind of particle. The only one that is mathematically possible is one that is called Anyon, which is named as such since it can take any phase on the range from energy to matter (yes, that is a range. In our world only those two are possible, but some anyons in rare cases exist here two). Anyons technically only live in two dimensions, and since Investiture lives in the Spiritual Realm, it leads us to understand that each soul is basically a two-dimensional sheet, like a piece of paper all tangled up within itself. The simplest example of such structure (called a manifold) is a sphere, like earth. Though the sphere is in 3d, we can walk on it as if it were 2d. Now start poking holes in it, connected different sides of the sphere to eachother, making knots and a complex web (spiritweb if you will), and you got a complex structure that could hold Investiture. So, in summary so far, the spiritweb is a very copmlex 2d manifold that can contain Investiture. Investiture is a quantum particle (anyon) that lives within the spiritweb. But here is the thing about quantum particles. They are quantized. This means that only very specific particles can exist. Which particles can exist is based on two things: the structure of the spiritweb, and the forces acting in it. The the move the Investiture, are the Invent as established in the first section. The structure makes up the Identity. One last thing that can control the type of Investiture is the Connection to other sources of Investiture. If that specific type of Investiture never enters the Spiritweb, it cannot use it. Connections are a bit tricky mathematically, but let's just say that they are point where the spiritwebs collide with eachother, allowing the passage of Investiture, along with other things. One final thing we establish here is vertical connections, which are actually the bonds between a spirit and a body. This is not a regular Connection as known so far in the cosmere, since it doesn't connect sould or spiritwebs. Instead it allows the passage of energy between realms, much like a perpendicularity, only not through bending the realms. part 3 Since the Spiritual Realm is 2d and the physical realm is 3d, there is a gradient of realms, with fractional dimensions. This is pretty trippy to think about, and is closely related to fractals, but in essance, the Cognitive Realm is created as a shadow between the two realms by the perception field, which lives on the connection of the body and the spirit. part 4 spoiler for sunlit man This part is just meant to explain that a sphere radiating light without losing energy is easily explained, by comparing it to what's called black body radiation. This is a radiation where a body that has a temperature, emits in relation to the temperature it has. In the same sense, the Investiture that a body causes it to emit light to the surroundings. For the same reasons Elantrians glow, the mists glow sometimes, stromlight glows, perpendicularities glow, the Dor glows, and so on. I think that's it. If you have questions about specific parts, or general ones, let me know. If I still overshot with my theories, I'm sorry, and if you still want to understand I will happily explain it in more details. My part time job is a physics teacher, so don't be disncouraged.

If you have questions or want an explanation about anything, please write to me The important part is the second chapter, I believe

First of all, thank you for replying a serious idea! I've been waiting for someone to discuss this with! You are right of course. There are a few great threads discussing this scene in particular making absolutly no physical sense, giving all sort of solutions (from the force being relaying on the mass of the percieved object, on the relative speed of the coinshot and the coin, and on the amount of purified metal). Here are a few: I regarded the force as constant, looking at the simple example of "coinshot pushing a coin with no disturbance", without adding any Heaviside Functions or other not-so-pretty changes to the system. In that particular case, without other forces being non-conservative, the allomantic force actually acts, by most accounts, as a regular inverse square force. I took the liberty of approximating it to a constant much like gravity is, but it probably really isn't very accurate in small distances. I really did make a lot of assumptions and took the easy path in the first part, since it was just laying groundwork for chapter 2, which is the main part of the article. I would love to hear you opinion about it. What did you think about Investiture being Anyons in the Spiritual Realm? BTW I am on the third year of my Physics & Sociology Bs.C. (bachelor's degree). Thank you again for reading and writing back!

Did anyone get a chance to read this? I would love some feedback