Zellion

[Eran of Arcadia]

Zellion.

Discuss.

[Lightspen of the Glass Sea]

I'm very interested to see the origin story of the first Lodestar Zellion. How did he come to worship Adonalsium, and why did he go to Threnody, convert a group of people, and lead them to Canticle? He must have had some very interesting reasoning.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Eran of Arcadia said:

Zellion.

Discuss.

A criminal madman, fanatic and coward.

He intentionally led his people onto a world without a future. Somebody should have shot him.

[+robardin]

40 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

A criminal madman, fanatic and coward.

He intentionally led his people onto a world without a future. Somebody should have shot him.

So you think it was Hoid?

 

*D&R*

Edited October 2, 2023 by robardin

[+Oltux72]

19 minutes ago, robardin said:

So you think it was Hoid?

Hoid, whether you like him or not, has reasonable reasons, for what he does. Now, people may disagree on whether they are a sufficient justification for his actions, but it is clear that they objectively exist.

Zellion, why? Because he did not like the politics of his home world? And that is a reason to lead your people into exile? We are not even touching upon intentionally dropping your people onto a world where children will have to approve of sacrificing their parents. Even Straff Venture had better reason than that man.

[Dwmaster204]

They fled the EVIL.

[+Oltux72]

18 minutes ago, Dwmaster204 said:

They fled the EVIL.

I am sorry, but they did not. Yes, them being Threnodites their ancestors fled from the Homeland to another continent. But they fled their planet for ideological reasons.

I am sorry, but Zellion is the Cosmere version of Jim Jones.

[TheoreticalMagic]

We don't have NEARLY enough information to make such a bold claim, I think.

For starters, all we know of the original Zellion's motivation for leading the Threnodites to Canticle is the modern generation's INTERPRETATION of those long ago events. Yes, they know of things from the Chorus, but uh, we have more than enough precedent to think that Threnodite shades should be perhaps taken with several grains of salt. Even if they're not actively trying to lead anyone astray, their recall of past events is not necessarily suspect, but at the very least likely to be skewed. And we also don't know how much of what was told to Nomad about the original motivations was verbatim what the modern Canticlers were told by the Chorus about why they left Threnody, vs their OWN interpretation of what the Chorus relayed to them.

There's at least a couple degrees of hearsay in play here, even IF the source of the intel is one hundred percent accurate and unbiased, which is also not a given.

And then there's the fact that we have zero idea if Canticle was the original destination, or if Zellion knew what life would be like there, the sacrifices that would be demanded, etc. A core theme of the book is people taking a chance on a better life and hoping for the future, even while being aware that things might not actually work out that way. There's zero reason to suspect that the same didn't hold just as true for the original Zellion and the Threnodites who chose to go with him. They knew it was a gamble but they had their reasons for leaving and just because WE have knowledge of where those intentions and choices led, doesn't mean hindsight is a fair lens by which to judge people who very likely couldn't have known for sure where events would lead, and were taking leaps of faith for their own personal reasons.

And THEN there's the fact that life on Canticle was NEVER an inherent death sentence, and for all we know, Zellion led them there or chose to settle there because he or others figured out what was discovered in this very book.....that there are ways to recharge sunhearts and have a virtually unlimited power source that don't require sacrificing ANYONE.....and then any number of things could have happened that led to Zellion dying before this knowledge could become widespread or it being hidden or lost by other parties, etc.

I mean, maybe Zellion and his motivations were sketch, but I maintain we have far too little information to make that claim with any degree of accuracy, just because in the many, many years since that time, things went south for the descendants of the people who originally came with Zellion for reasons their history has not retained a full and inherently objective recounting of.

[Duxredux]

On 10/2/2023 at 5:15 PM, TheoreticalMagic said:

We don't have NEARLY enough information to make such a bold claim, I think.

Hard agree. If there's anything we should have learned from Stormlight Archive it's that history's view on events, decisions, and people can be distorted almost beyond all recognition, particular if Brandon's involved. There are almost certainly elements of truth to the story, clearly they got here and managed to survive chasing the sun, which either requires existing tech or insane inventing speed when hours are the countdown to death.

Who knows why the children of Threnody ended up on Canticle as opposed to another planet, we (at least I) don't even know why Nomad ended up there. Why is that planet even habitable (technically) to begin with? There's so much weirdness with that planet, maybe there's some Connection thing that draws Investiture to the core and it hijacked not only Nomad's Skip but the Threnodite immigrants. What I'm wondering is their talk of how they used to be able to survive in direct sunlight, since that seems like ancient tech that for some reason hardly anyone knows about. What's going on there? The echo of Zellion emerging from the sunlight probably means something, but who do we know that could survive that if that can kill the previous holder of a Dawnshard?

There's just so many unknowns, it's like trying to predict Rosharan history just from WoK, but with less material.

[Cinders]

I just love the fact that Sanderson wrote the book, then dropped Zellion on the figurine Kickstarter, and we all had NO IDEA. 

[teknopathetic]

Super Sus that the first Zellion just happened to bring his people to a planet where Shades wouldn't be a problem. And to a planet that is heavily invested with no known source causing it. And that had no perpendicularity meaning it would be extremely hard to find on one's own. 

My crack theory is that this planet is actually some sort of charging device that Ambition left before she passed away from her wounds. The first Zellion knew of it, and was either directed or influenced to head towards it and make a new home. Ambition is charging something up there, and eventually ambition's people will get to use it. Brandon has said that Ambition would be a black magic the gathering deck, and that screams "resurrection device" to me. 

What would be more ambitious than creating your own sun-charged device that would eventually allow you to resurrect? And the people living on that planet would need to be pretty ambitious at the start to make living their work. 
 

We learn that the Deepest Ones are mountain sized monsters on Threnody, and then we learn that this new planet has Mountain sized features that don’t make sense. Hmmmm. HMMMM

Edited October 13, 2023 by teknopathetic

[The Sibling]

On 2023-10-02 at 7:15 PM, TheoreticalMagic said:

We don't have NEARLY enough information to make such a bold claim, I think.

 

I really want to know more about the original Zellion. I definitely think that we really don't have enough information to make accurate judgements, although I like to believe that Zellion was actually kind of selfish and led the Threnodies to Canticle for his own benefit, then was made a hero through legends passed down from generation to generation. It just seem like a cool idea. With Kelsier we got to see a man become a legend, and with this it might be interesting to see the reverse. Learn about the legend first and the man later. 

Sidenote, I think Zellion is kind of. dumb name. Sorry Brandon.

 

[+Bzhydack]

On 2.10.2023 at 9:25 PM, Oltux72 said:

Zellion, why? Because he did not like the politics of his home world? And that is a reason to lead your people into exile? We are not even touching upon intentionally dropping your people onto a world where children will have to approve of sacrificing their parents. Even Straff Venture had better reason than that man.

Why assume he wanted this? Canticle has no Perpendicularity. Will not be accesible from Shadesmar, until temporary one apear. If Threnodites fled by Shadesmar, then something forces them to go out on Canticle and they get stuck. If they were traveling by other means, they will get stuck too. Is very possible that Canticle wasnt main destination, but became one. Simply, it's a trap!

[Firesong]

3 hours ago, The Sibling said:

Sidenote, I think Zellion is kind of. dumb name. Sorry Brandon.

Really? I am the exact opposite and find it one of my favorite names of his. It just has a really good ring to it to me. But to each their own. : )

[The Sibling]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Really? I am the exact opposite and find it one of my favorite names of his. It just has a really good ring to it to me. But to each their own. : )

I guess it just doesn't fit Roshar for me at all, and I know that obviously they're not on Roshar but for that reason I hate this name for Sigzil because Sigzil is a great name and Nomad is a great name and why did he need a third name?

[Firesong]

1 minute ago, The Sibling said:

I guess it just doesn't fit Roshar for me at all, and I know that obviously they're not on Roshar but for that reason I hate this name for Sigzil because Sigzil is a great name and Nomad is a great name and why did he need a third name?

I mean, yeah, it doesn't fit Roshar as it is a Yolish name. And his third name is more thematic to symbolize his connection to the people of Beacon. It was more thematic than anything else, I feel. 

But I rather not debate, I don't want any protentional arguments. 

[The Sibling]

Just now, Firesong said:

I mean, yeah, it doesn't fit Roshar as it is a Yolish name. And his third name is more thematic to symbolize his connection to the people of Beacon. It was more thematic than anything else, I feel. 

I just mean that even though it fits in the world and everything, to me it doesn't fit Sigzil. Your points do make sense though. I just need to get used to it because name changes kind of throw me a bit.

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Why assume he wanted this? Canticle has no Perpendicularity. Will not be accesible from Shadesmar, until temporary one apear. If Threnodites fled by Shadesmar, then something forces them to go out on Canticle and they get stuck. If they were traveling by other means, they will get stuck too. Is very possible that Canticle wasnt main destination, but became one. Simply, it's a trap!

They derived the engines that lift the cities from their ship engines. They state that temselves. Hence we are certain that they left Threnody in space ships.

They went to that systems intentionally or extremely recklessly.

[Duxredux]

11 hours ago, The Sibling said:

I guess it just doesn't fit Roshar for me at all, and I know that obviously they're not on Roshar but for that reason I hate this name for Sigzil because Sigzil is a great name and Nomad is a great name and why did he need a third name?

I think he's becoming more like Hoid/Wit/Cephandrius/Topaz/Lunu'anaki than he wants to. Realmatically speaking, his chosen name will influence the way he perceives his Identity and his Connection to the people of Canticle has Realmatic significance. Connection and Identity have real power in the Cosmere, and Sig's adoption clearly was not just a formality. It was during the name-gifting adoption ceremony that he gained access to their Invested abilities of absorbing and releasing Investiture even from the souls of other beings.

As a sidenote, does Zellion sound like a portmanteau of zealous and Apollyon to anyone or is that just me? In my opinion, the real irony of handing out that name is that for anyone who reads TSM but not the postscript might go off and use the cool name for their username for games or forums and never realize that they just stole one of Brandon's standard internet handles. It's pretty cool that it hasn't happened yet on 17th Shard.

So I don't just drown out @Oltux72, I'll keep this conversation going as well, though I've already said 98% of my core piece - that there are a lot of unknowns. Do you know how spacefaring navigation works in the Cosmere? How each of the different ships (Rosharan, Scadrian, Threnodite, etc.) achieves FTL or refuels or any of their other resource constraints? It seems unlikely that the first Zellion lead by force considering how unaggressive the Threnodites of Canticle are without Cinderhearts, so does the commentary on if Zellion should have been shot change at all based on if he was fully supported by his fellow refugee emmigrants or if he tried to manipulate them into following him? Do you know the proximity of Canticle in relation to Threnodite and the relative range of the emmigrant ships? Should every leader of a pilgrim organization who due to ideological reasons flees to an unknown foreign land be summarily executed for recklessness? Since you mention Jim Jones, I hope you won't mind me continuing in the same thread, groups leaving for ideological reasons to settle relatively unexplored territory describes the ancestors of several major religious groups and for some of them it worked - the U.S. celebrates the pilgrims every year on Thanksgiving for settling America while seeking religious freedom. I might add, Threnodites almost certainly take heavy inspiration from some of these religious groups, and yes, I do make a distinction between cyanide poisoning and the unfortunate condition of Canticle that makes Threnodite souls amazing battery packs. Even Nomad as an outsider saw the terrible logic and circumstances that led to the sacrifices that kept their cities outpacing the sun.

Is trailblazing reckless? Absolutely, and expansion is built on the bones of the trailblazers, as discussed in SotD. Could Zellion be an utterly insane charismatic zealot who didn't have sufficient caution or foresight? Absolutely. Could the ideological difference that caused the nonaggressive-minded Canticle Threnodites to leave have been the formation of The Night Brigade with weaponized Shades? Maybe, even plausible. Could the stop at Canticle have been merely meant as a pause in their journey to try to figure out how to safely refuel using the Investiture from the sun but then was disrupted by I don't know, the fact that the planet's gravitational field follows a frankly unscientific curve unexplanable without Investiture and is far stronger than it should be from the visible size of the planet and maybe instead of smoothly landing they just crashed and damaged their ships because the gravitation and geology of this planet doesn't match anything we've ever seen anywhere else in the Cosmere? Okay, rant over, it just really bothers me when people say that someone is worthy of death when so little is actually known about them or the circumstances they were making decisions in. You might say the new Zellion came to Canticle in an incredibly reckless blind flying Skip for ideological reasons like "this planet-destroying group shouldn't be given access to a Dawnshard" and he resorted to consuming at least a couple of souls to escape.

[+Bzhydack]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They derived the engines that lift the cities from their ship engines. They state that temselves. Hence we are certain that they left Threnody in space ships.

They went to that systems intentionally or extremely recklessly.

But their engines cannot work in space! And they didnt mention anything about "forgotten technology". More even, they are certain they cannot fly high above surface and they are surpriced when Nomad mentions space ships. If they arrived on Canticle in space ship, they would have at least legend about "descending from stars" or something like this. Also, Chorus will mention this. Also, that will mean Threnody had space ferring technology before Evil, and this contradicts what we know about them.

They traveled by flying vessels, but they didnt travel throu space. In my opinion, Shadesmar is more likely.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, that will mean Threnody had space ferring technology before Evil, and this contradicts what we know about them.

They traveled by flying vessels, but they didnt travel throu space.

It does not mean that at all. Evil came to the continent. Refugees moved to Hell. Politics came to Hell. Canticle ancestors left Threnody. There is a huge gap between the cause of Evil and the departure of the Chorus from Threnody; in which access to Space Travel could have either been developed, or the original Zellion (who was an off worlder) provided the means of transportation. Also, just because space travel is implied, does not mean the FTL space travel is also implied. Maybe it was a generation ship of some kind allowing a relatively small band of refugees to swell in number before arriving at Canticle. 

We just don't have enough data. All that can be said for certain is that they specifically referenced using their ships for parts and designing the mobile-floating-city model from technology they had on hand in those ships.

Quote

In my opinion, Shadesmar is more likely.

Stargate might be more likely. . . but how do you think they were able to move flying ships into Shadesmar when Threnody does not have a stable perpendicularity - then move through Shadesmar - then get it back to the physical realm on Canticle which has no known perpendicularity at all?

[EnderW420]

6 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I think he's becoming more like Hoid/Wit/Cephandrius/Topaz/Lunu'anaki than he wants to.

I agree, with a caveat; I think Zellion is becoming a more positive foil to Hoid, and this book was the point where he shifted from following down Hoid's path to carving out his own.

At the beginning, Hoid and Nomad are both former Dawnshard holders whose Torment forces them to do no harm, travel through the Cosmere to destinations they do not plan, and tend to prefer their own priorities to those of the people they are around. However, in this book, a lot of these change for Nomad; he finds a way to progress past his Torment where Hoid has not, which may make him more of an active participant in situations, and he chooses to engage with the people of Beacon rather than use something like the purified Dor to Skip out early. The Zellion naming scene seems like the most obvious method of that; Hoid seems to collect names but he treats them somewhat casually, revealing names on a whim, wheras Nomad does not even think of his old name until arguably the emotional climax of the book, and is incredibly moved by being given a new name. Nomad was quite like Hoid, but I don't think Zellion will be.

[+Bzhydack]

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Stargate might be more likely. . . but how do you think they were able to move flying ships into Shadesmar when Threnody does not have a stable perpendicularity - then move through Shadesmar - then get it back to the physical realm on Canticle which has no known perpendicularity at all?

Some sort of Threnodite equivalent of Transportation Surge. We know Threnodites are able to leave planet in current time, we literaly met at least two of them. Maybe some sort of fabrial using Shades. They needet to have other power sources for ships when they leave Threnody, so some sort of Invested Technology was known to them. Indeed they may use something like Stargate (Shadegate?) to move into Shadesmar, and then navigate to strong source of Investiture in Shadesmar, then leave, only to realize they get trapped because they cant use this Investiture. This is very plausible - they needet to find fuel for ships, because in Shadesmar Investiture is scarce, so Zelin decided to go back to Physical Realm when they detect strong source of Investiture on other side.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bzhydack

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Some sort of Threnodite equivalent of Transportation Surge. We know Threnodites are able to leave planet in current time, we literaly met at least two of them. Maybe some sort of fabrial using Shades. They needet to have other power sources for ships when they leave Threnody, so some sort of Invested Technology was known to them. Indeed they may use something like Stargate (Shadegate?) to move into Shadesmar, and then navigate to strong source of Investiture in Shadesmar, then leave, only to realize they get trapped because they cant use this Investiture. This is very plausible - they needet to find fuel for ships, because in Shadesmar Investiture is scarce, so Zelin decided to go back to Physical Realm when they detect strong source of Investiture on other side.

Then they'd all be dead. Sorry, but you have only hours to establish flying cities once you are on the surface of Canticle. That includes the time for understanding the danger the sun poses.

18 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

But their engines cannot work in space! And they didnt mention anything about "forgotten technology". More even, they are certain they cannot fly high above surface and they are surpriced when Nomad mentions space ships. If they arrived on Canticle in space ship, they would have at least legend about "descending from stars" or something like this. Also, Chorus will mention this. Also, that will mean Threnody had space ferring technology before Evil, and this contradicts what we know about them.

They mentioned something much more sinister. They knew that death by sunight does not produce shades. I will say it outright. Zellion and his associates wanted a new home like Canticle, where Threnodites live without Shades and in an environment that forces passificism. Then they surpressed the engine technology.

[Treamayne]

Reading a different thread reminded me of this WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

So a seon can be transferred to another person, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Can a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

Since we know Zellion did something with his Honorspren bond before becoming a DawnVessel - I wonder if he was able to transfer his Nahel Bond. That might have been a way to divest himself of Radiance to assume his new task, but without breakingoaths or harming his Spren.