Relative Timing of the Secret Projects

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Now we have all three Secret Projects an obvious question arises. What is their temporal ordering? I will propose the following

(earliest) SP#4 - SP#3 - SP#1 (latest)

Now what is the evidence?

SP#4 is before SP#3 - and that is I think the only temporal relation we have good evidence for: Sigzil does not know that Sho Del settle outside Yolen. Yet in SP#3 Hoid claims that the U'Tol system is famous. If it is famous, people must know who lives there.

SP#1 after SP#4 - that is very hard. I would, however, say that if Hoid were an Elantrian in SP#3, he would have used Aon Tia to leave

SP#4 before SP#1 - the description of Nalthis in SP#4 sounds like Nalthis is not yet a high tech world at that stage.

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

Its worth keeping in mind that Hoid is telling SP3 a while after it occurs, so SP3 could have happened, then SP4, then Hoid actually tells the story of SP3

[The Unknown Order he/him]

I mostly agree on this, especially as Tress is supposed to be pretty far future. Not sure about your point on using Aon Tia though. My biggest question is really where SP4 falls in relation to the front and back half of Stormlight.

[Tbug33]

8 hours ago, The Known Novel said:

I mostly agree on this, especially as Tress is supposed to be pretty far future. Not sure about your point on using Aon Tia though. My biggest question is really where SP4 falls in relation to the front and back half of Stormlight.

I might be forgetting age information given in Stormlight 1-4, but my guess is that Sunlit Man takes place decades after Stromlight 10. Sigzil/Nomad says he was 38 when he took in/became the Dawnshard. It makes sense to me that he was in his mid-twenties in 1-5. This gives him time to get armor has a Windrunner in SL5, get the Dawnshard in the back half, then get his armor as a Skybreaker in 9-10 (maybe when he uses the Dawnshard to mostly kill Aux, it's to do something grand in SL10). While there isn't a ton of evidence to support this nessessarily, I think it makes the most sense. Seems like too much happening all at once if this was between 5 and 6.

[+robardin he/him]

9 hours ago, The Known Novel said:

I mostly agree on this, especially as Tress is supposed to be pretty far future. Not sure about your point on using Aon Tia though. My biggest question is really where SP4 falls in relation to the front and back half of Stormlight.

We have a few clues:

• He gave up his bond to his honorspren BEFORE taking up the Dawnshard.
  • Maybe just before, or as a condition of or part of doing so, we don't know.
• He says he bonded Auxiliary AFTER taking up Hoid's Dawnshard.
  • Oooh, I forgot the part @tbug33 just mentioned - he says he was 38 when he did that, "when time had finally stopped tracking him, his soul bending under the Dawnshard's influence". (Ch. 11)
• Sigzil was bonded with Auxiliary for "decades" before the "accident" that nearly killed the spren.
  • "Aux might have started their relationship hesitant to show his true self, but after decades together, his expressiveness had grown and grown. Until... that day." (Ch. 6)
• He still held the Dawnshard when "the accident" happened, as he remembers "The Dawnshard" and not "the Torment"
   as the agent and reason for his "reaching out for any energy source" resulting in eating Auxiliary's "very substance" to fuel it. (Ch. 20)
• The Night Brigade only started pursuing him AFTER he gave up the Dawnshard.
  • Aux recalls he "turned himself in" to the NB at first as "clearing up a misunderstanding", i.e., "I don't have it any more, please stop following me around!" (Ch. 28)
    • "A similar attitude had originally landed him in the army on Roshar, carrying siege equipment." Hmmm!

I don't think we have clues as to how long ago he gave up the Dawnshard (nor how/to whom), though, or how long he's been Skipping ahead of the Night Brigade.

He also seems to half hope to see Kaladin on the deck of Beacon when it turns out to be a "Connection ghost" of Wit, -- that might indicate that Kal is not necessarily dead yet, as it doesn't seem particularly in character for Sigzil - or Nomad - to be hoping it's a pleasant hallucination or vision.

Edited October 2, 2023 by robardin

[The Unknown Order he/him]

1 hour ago, Tbug33 said:

I might be forgetting age information given in Stormlight 1-4, but my guess is that Sunlit Man takes place decades after Stromlight 10. Sigzil/Nomad says he was 38 when he took in/became the Dawnshard. It makes sense to me that he was in his mid-twenties in 1-5. This gives him time to get armor has a Windrunner in SL5, get the Dawnshard in the back half, then get his armor as a Skybreaker in 9-10 (maybe when he uses the Dawnshard to mostly kill Aux, it's to do something grand in SL10). While there isn't a ton of evidence to support this nessessarily, I think it makes the most sense. Seems like too much happening all at once if this was between 5 and 6.

That's roughly my guess. He takes his Oaths in SA5/SAGap, gets the Dawnshard maybe in SA5, probably in SA6/7 in a sort of Everstorm style big event, then bonds Aux in the 7-9 period, then absorbs him.

Or the alternative: Sig swears the 4th, has to take the Dawnshard as the end of SA5, bonds Aux over the break, has him for "decades" before absorbing him sometime in the back half.

Don't think we can really know until after SA5 though.

[NameIess]

We don't have enough information to conclusively place SP4 before SP3. During the events of SP3, Design knows very little about UTol, as she initially believed it possible that Yumi was originally from there. By extension, this means that Hoid didn't know about UTol either.

As for when UTol became famous, We know that Hoid tells the story sometime not too long after the events YaTNP, given that Yumi and Nikaro are both still alive. So whatever happened to make UTol widely known happened sometime in that gap.

This means there are three possibilities:

One, Sigzil appears on UTol before SP3 happens, and presumably leaves without incident.

Two, Sigzil appears on UTol during or shortly after the events of SP3. If this is what happens, it is possible that he either causes some sort of event that made UTol famous, or leaves without incident.

Three, Sigzil appears on UTol sometime long after SP3 and simply hasn't been in the loop enough to know about UTol.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Nameless*

[Aredor]

I think the relative timing of each goes SP4 - SP1 - SP3. Why? Well, first, there is a line from design to hoid in SP3 that says

Quote

"What happened?" she asked. 

"Remember that time I got my memories stolen?"

"Yes. It was hilarious."

The "time he got his memories stolen is most likely referring to when Riina stole his personality, and Ulaam, (like design) found it hilarious. 

The Sho Del planet at the end of SP4 is, as most have surmised, most likely UTol. As Nomad seems incredibly cosmere aware at this point, yet he has never heard of UTol / doesn't recognize it, even though by the time of Yumi it is famous, then we can reasonably assume that Nomad skipping to UTol takes place before SP3. Therefore, SP4 is before SP3, and SP3 is before SP1.

Either that, or nomad is just dumb and doesn't know what UTol is. 

[Treamayne]

33 minutes ago, Aredor said:

The "time he got his memories stolen is most likely referring to when Riina stole his personality, and Ulaam, (like design) found it hilarious.

That's possible, but more likely refers to the events in the Rhythm of War Epilogue. . .

[Aredor]

58 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That's possible, but more likely refers to the events in the Rhythm of War Epilogue. . .

Yeah.. that does make more sense, now that I think about it. 

[Szeth_Pancakes he/him]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:44 AM, robardin said:

We have a few clues:

• He gave up his bond to his honorspren BEFORE taking up the Dawnshard.
  • Maybe just before, or as a condition of or part of doing so, we don't know.
• He says he bonded Auxiliary AFTER taking up Hoid's Dawnshard.
  • Oooh, I forgot the part @tbug33 just mentioned - he says he was 38 when he did that, "when time had finally stopped tracking him, his soul bending under the Dawnshard's influence". (Ch. 11)
• Sigzil was bonded with Auxiliary for "decades" before the "accident" that nearly killed the spren.
  • "Aux might have started their relationship hesitant to show his true self, but after decades together, his expressiveness had grown and grown. Until... that day." (Ch. 6)
• He still held the Dawnshard when "the accident" happened, as he remembers "The Dawnshard" and not "the Torment"
   as the agent and reason for his "reaching out for any energy source" resulting in eating Auxiliary's "very substance" to fuel it. (Ch. 20)
• The Night Brigade only started pursuing him AFTER he gave up the Dawnshard.
  • Aux recalls he "turned himself in" to the NB at first as "clearing up a misunderstanding", i.e., "I don't have it any more, please stop following me around!" (Ch. 28)
    • "A similar attitude had originally landed him in the army on Roshar, carrying siege equipment." Hmmm!

I don't think we have clues as to how long ago he gave up the Dawnshard (nor how/to whom), though, or how long he's been Skipping ahead of the Night Brigade.

He also seems to half hope to see Kaladin on the deck of Beacon when it turns out to be a "Connection ghost" of Wit, -- that might indicate that Kal is not necessarily dead yet, as it doesn't seem particularly in character for Sigzil - or Nomad - to be hoping it's a pleasant hallucination or vision.

I think the biggest thing is Scadrial technological progress. Since Mistborn Era 2 is between the front and back halves of Stormlight, and the back half only takes place a couple decades later than the front half, Scadrian technology can't conceivably have progressed to a point in which they're involved in a cosmere-wide arms race in such a short amount of time.

Unless I'm missing something.

[Firesong she/her]

On 10/3/2023 at 9:35 PM, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I think the biggest thing is Scadrial technological progress. Since Mistborn Era 2 is between the front and back halves of Stormlight, and the back half only takes place a couple decades later than the front half, Scadrian technology can't conceivably have progressed to a point in which they're involved in a cosmere-wide arms race in such a short amount of time.

Unless I'm missing something.

We don't know how long after Era 3 Era 4 will be. 

Era 1 to Era 2 was 341 years

Era 2 to Era 3 will will be around 70 years, as per WoB

Era 3 to Era 4 is a ???

Also, keep in mind, they have access to magic, which can help them expand faster in certain areas as they begin to study into it in a more scientific manner, as Brandon said they would by Era 3. So I believe that it would begin to accelerate massively during or after Era 3. Allowing them to begin the interstellar age within decades or a century instead of centuries. Maybe. 

Also, SA6 is 10-15 years after SA5, not decades. So it would still take place before Era 3, which is 70 years after the gap between SA5 and 6. As Era 2 takes place in the gap. As substantiated by WoB and the epigraphs in SA3 and 4. 

[Gavtyven he/him]

On 02/10/2023 at 0:52 AM, Oltux72 said:

SP#1 after SP#4 - that is very hard. I would, however, say that if Hoid were an Elantrian in SP#3, he would have used Aon Tia to leave

SP#4 before SP#1 - the description of Nalthis in SP#4 sounds like Nalthis is not yet a high tech world at that stage.

SP1 feels like it's very far in the future, as the Iriali have left there 300 years ago, but did have a significant enough population for Tress to know about them. As SP1 is definitely after SA first half, and after Mistborn era 2 (where the Iriali also might appear), this means the Iriali would have been there probably at least 400 years before SP1. With the pace things are developing (and also, I feel like the Malwish would develop tech much, much faster, as seen in era 2) spaceflight will likely be possible much before that, especially when different worlds start to interact and different magic systems start synergizing

[Elegy he/him]

Relevant WOB:

Quote

Raddatatta

Can you place this one in time for us relative to Era 3 of Mistborn and Sixth of the Dusk?

Brandon Sanderson

A little after in my current timeline of those. Karen hasn't seen all these timelines. She only canonizes timelines when books are written, and she hasn't done that for Sunlit Man yet. So she will slot it in. How should we say- you say Era 3 and Sixth of the Dusk. After Era 3, similar timeline to Sixth of the Dusk. Because Era 3 is before Sixth of the Dusk era. Those are not two of the same. Around Sixth of the Dusk era, probably just a tad after, is what I would say.

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

TSM is probably after Sixth of the Dusk, which - given the SOTD2 chapter - also puts it deep into space era cosmere.

[NameIess]

WoB from the SP5 livestream confirms Yumi is after TSM:

Spoiler

Questioner

Is this the furthest forward that we have seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I intend this to be the furthest forward. Now, we don't have the full master timeline done yet, but I intend this to be just a little after Sunlit Man, which was our furthest forward at that point. So, this is just a little bit forward, but it's kinda the same era, just a little further than Sunlit Man.

Questioner

Is Yumi further than Sunlit Man?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, yeah, Yumi is further than Sunlit Man. The question is, is this further than Yumi? And I do think that it is. Yumi, technically, is further than Sunlit, which is a good point. It doesn't feel like it, because it's taking place on a world that's not as technologically advanced, but it technically is. Good catch.

Once Stormlight Five is out, the idea is to release a nice, full timeline for everybody.

Secret Project #5 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2024)

 

[Leronsiphedus the Carnie she/her]

On 10/1/2023 at 4:52 PM, Oltux72 said:

Now we have all three Secret Projects an obvious question arises. What is their temporal ordering? I will propose the following

(earliest) SP#4 - SP#3 - SP#1 (latest)

Now what is the evidence?

SP#4 is before SP#3 - and that is I think the only temporal relation we have good evidence for: Sigzil does not know that Sho Del settle outside Yolen. Yet in SP#3 Hoid claims that the U'Tol system is famous. If it is famous, people must know who lives there.

SP#1 after SP#4 - that is very hard. I would, however, say that if Hoid were an Elantrian in SP#3, he would have used Aon Tia to leave

SP#4 before SP#1 - the description of Nalthis in SP#4 sounds like Nalthis is not yet a high tech world at that stage.

In Brandon Sanderson's most recent Livestream, he talks about how SP3 is farther than The Sunlit Man, and his SP5 is even farther than that.

On 3/23/2024 at 1:29 PM, NameIess said:

WoB from the SP5 livestream confirms Yumi is after TSM:

  Hide contents

Questioner

Is this the furthest forward that we have seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I intend this to be the furthest forward. Now, we don't have the full master timeline done yet, but I intend this to be just a little after Sunlit Man, which was our furthest forward at that point. So, this is just a little bit forward, but it's kinda the same era, just a little further than Sunlit Man.

Questioner

Is Yumi further than Sunlit Man?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, yeah, Yumi is further than Sunlit Man. The question is, is this further than Yumi? And I do think that it is. Yumi, technically, is further than Sunlit, which is a good point. It doesn't feel like it, because it's taking place on a world that's not as technologically advanced, but it technically is. Good catch.

Once Stormlight Five is out, the idea is to release a nice, full timeline for everybody.

Secret Project #5 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2024)

 

Sorry, I didn't know that someone else already covered that Yumi and the Nightmare Painter is further.