Dawnshards and Nightblood

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

I saw that in the coppermind immediately after I commented and didn't believe it. Did you actually go verify that in RoW? Lightweavers obviously need to see into shadesmar to make their power works, but it seems like a weird overlap with Transportation to be able to actually go there. 

It was verified in Way of Kings (Ch 70):

Spoiler

What am I?” Shallan whispered. “Truthfully?” It was a day for confrontation. She felt strangely strong, steady. Time to speak it. “I’m a murderer. I killed my father.”

Ah, the voice whispered. A powerful truth indeed….

And the alcove vanished.

Shallan fell, dropping into that sea of dark glass beads. She struggled, trying to stay at the surface. She managed it for a moment. Then something tugged on her leg, pulling her down. She screamed, slipping beneath the surface, tiny beads of glass filling her mouth. She panicked. She was going to—

The beads above her parted. Those beneath her surged, bearing her upward, out to where someone stood, hand outstretched. Jasnah, back to the black sky, face lit by nearby hovering flames. Jasnah grasped Shallan’s hand, pulling her upward, onto something. A raft. Made from the beads of glass. They seemed to obey Jasnah’s will.

“Idiot girl,” Jasnah said, waving. The oceanlike beads to the left split, and the raft lurched, bearing them sideways toward a few flames of light. Jasnah shoved Shallan into one of the small flames, and she fell backward off the raft.

And hit the floor of the alcove. Jasnah sat where she had been, eyes closed. A moment later, she opened them, giving Shallan an angry look.

“Idiot girl!” Jasnah repeated. “You have no idea how dangerous that was. Visiting Shadesmar with only a single dim sphere? Idiot!”

It was likely part of the outpouring of investiture from speaking a Truth (Like Kaladin's Oaths). Truthweavers can't get back if they go fully across, they can;t take things other than themselves. The Surge of Transportation, however, actually creates a mini-perpenducarity (as seen in WoR Epilogue) has far more utility - and that's not counting other possible ways to use that Surge (as seen by Lezian).

[therunner]

11 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

I saw that in the coppermind immediately after I commented and didn't believe it. Did you actually go verify that in RoW? Lightweavers obviously need to see into shadesmar to make their power works, but it seems like a weird overlap with Transportation to be able to actually go there. 

Yep, I did verify it.
Adolin mentions that Shallan can get herself to Shadesmar, but not back. And that it is lucky that Oathgate spren listen to Stormfather/Dalinar and are allowing them to go to Shadesmar and back, because otherwise they would not have a way there and back.

[Frustration]

While I like the idea as a way to limit nightblood, I have to disagree, for a few reasons.

1. Terrible things would happen if Azure's sword was used against Nightblood, and the two have been actively compared by him, even after we knew about Dawnshards

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen if Azure's sword was wielded against Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

If Azure's sword was wielded against Nightblood, terrible things would happen, but Nightblood would be the stronger of the pair. Good question.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13306

Questioner

Are there other objects that we've encountered like Nightblood?

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Nothing quite like Nightblood, though Azure's sword is Invested.

 

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15042

 

And 2. Nightblood is not nearly strong enough to be a Dawnshard.

Let's look at the one instance we have of a Dawnshard being used: Ashyn.

Before the exodus of mankind from Ashyn they accidentally set the entire planet on fire, and as of the Sunlight Man, some 8,000 years later they are still in flying cities, meaning the gound is still burning.

Nightblood doesn't even come close to that level of power.

[PrestoTheMagnificent]

On 10/1/2023 at 3:41 AM, therunner said:

We know that Endowment was involved in Nightblood's creation, and I think the involvement was that she used Nightblood as a vessel to hold Dawnshard and to allow someone to wield that Dawnshard without being twisted by its Intent. 

How would Endowment have gotten a Dawnshard? I'd say that the Shard would use the Dawnshard to grow more powerful, but I suppose that would be against "Endowment". Honestly, probably the safest shard to give a Dawnshard to.

58 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Nightblood is not nearly strong enough to be a Dawnshard.

 

Maybe instead of straight up holding a Dawnshard, maybe he held one in his past, or (more likely) it was used during his creation?

[therunner]

15 hours ago, PrestoTheMagnificent said:

How would Endowment have gotten a Dawnshard? I'd say that the Shard would use the Dawnshard to grow more powerful, but I suppose that would be against "Endowment". Honestly, probably the safest shard to give a Dawnshard to.

How did one or two Dawnshards end up on Roshar? Someone carried them there.

Similarly, someone could have given it to Endowment. She might not have been able to use it herself (I presume that Vessels would make Oaths not to use Dawnshards since they were very much aware of their capabilites).

[PrestoTheMagnificent]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Similarly, someone could have given it to Endowment. She might not have been able to use it herself (I presume that Vessels would make Oaths not to use Dawnshards since they were very much aware of their capabilites).

Oaths can be broken- I'm just saying that if a shard that was more destructive (Ruin or Odium) or more carefree (Whimsy) they might just take up the power. Isn't that what the sleepless were afraid about in Dawnshard? (the book)

[therunner]

1 hour ago, PrestoTheMagnificent said:

Oaths can be broken- I'm just saying that if a shard that was more destructive (Ruin or Odium) or more carefree (Whimsy) they might just take up the power. Isn't that what the sleepless were afraid about in Dawnshard? (the book)

True, but Shard breaking Oath has much serious consequences for them (possibly up to Splintering them).

But yeah, Endowment was probably the best bet, as she could possibly not take up Dawnshard at all because of her Intent, only give it away.

[anna]

On 10/24/2023 at 2:45 PM, PrestoTheMagnificent said:

How would Endowment have gotten a Dawnshard? I'd say that the Shard would use the Dawnshard to grow more powerful, but I suppose that would be against "Endowment". Honestly, probably the safest shard to give a Dawnshard to.

The easiest answer here is that Endowment always had a Dawnshard, and that that's why they were involved with shattering Adonalsium in the first place

[Aeshdan]

On 10/2/2023 at 2:50 AM, therunner said:

We saw Vivenna's Blade, and it does not seem to be anywhere near what Nightblood can do. Which could be down to Intent, however Nightblood is simply too powerful to account for being replicable creation. He can kill Vessels. That is faaar from any other weapon we have seen, only Dawnshards are on that level.

Nightblood also burns Investiture like a blast furnace to keep running. I always thought the differences between the Blades was deliberate, that the creators of Vivenna's Blade accepted a much lower level of power in exchange for 1) not requiring a constant influx of Investiture to fuel its abilities, and 2) not making something which is intelligent and capable of mind-controlling people if its containment is even slightly relaxed.

[therunner]

8 hours ago, ReaderAt2046 said:

Nightblood also burns Investiture like a blast furnace to keep running. I always thought the differences between the Blades was deliberate, that the creators of Vivenna's Blade accepted a much lower level of power in exchange for 1) not requiring a constant influx of Investiture to fuel its abilities, and 2) not making something which is intelligent and capable of mind-controlling people if its containment is even slightly relaxed.

Deliberate difference is possible, however we know that Nightblood's creation was special as it involved a Shard. So it stands to reason that Nightblood won't be replicable, not without Shardic level knowledge/power.

Also, we don't know that Vivenna's Blade does not require influx of Investiture, it still might (and most likely does, as it does seem to be artificial spren as well) albeit on lower level.
Vivenna even describes her blade as 'shy' if I remember right, so it is intelligent as well.

[JustQuestin2004]

Just saw this latest addition to the Arcanum from Dragonsteel 2023.

Spoiler

Forger (paraphrased)

Is Nightblood a Dawnshard?

Brandon (paraphrased)

He is not.

I'mma just plop this here and go.

[therunner]

16 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Just saw this latest addition to the Arcanum from Dragonsteel 2023.

  Reveal hidden contents

Forger (paraphrased)

Is Nightblood a Dawnshard?

Brandon (paraphrased)

He is not.

I'mma just plop this here and go.

Thanks! 

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

[IndigoAjah]

Personally I like the idea but think it's more likely that in addition to kind of creating an artificial Spren, by creating something Sentient like that and so powerful but also given such a binding (if poorly defined) Intent and indeed Command (which is what defined the Dawnshards), the Scholars actually accidentally created an artificial Dawnshard too

 

 

So NB is a new, 5th Dawnshard,.Destroy, that doesn't act exactly like a normal one

[alder24]

40 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Personally I like the idea but think it's more likely that in addition to kind of creating an artificial Spren, by creating something Sentient like that and so powerful but also given such a binding (if poorly defined) Intent and indeed Command (which is what defined the Dawnshards), the Scholars actually accidentally created an artificial Dawnshard too

So NB is a new, 5th Dawnshard,.Destroy, that doesn't act exactly like a normal one

The WoB above still applies, Nightblood is NOT a Dawnshard. That means Nightblood isn't a new 5th Dawnshard too.

[IndigoAjah]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The WoB above still applies, Nightblood is NOT a Dawnshard. That means Nightblood isn't a new 5th Dawnshard too.

I don't agree

 

If Nightblood is also technically not a Spren or a Shardblade as I'm pretty sure Brandon has said, then as an artificial Dawnshard like thing that acts mostly but not exactly like one, he is also very specifically NOT a Dawnshard. I mean, Dawnshard already implies existence from the Dawn of time 

 But still kind of is

 

He's Nightblood. He's unique, but he is also accidentally a lot of unintended things.