Connection, Investiture Efficiency, and the Spiritual Realm

[Trusk'our]

I recently had a particular part of a WoB pointed out to me by @therunner;

Quote

Warsaw signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

So there is some loss of power along the way? How do savants work into that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

Before, I took this to mean that the reason Savants are so much more efficient with their Investiture because the warping of their Spiritwebs brought them closer to the SR, but now I think diferently; I believe the reason why Savants are more efficient with and have more control over their powers is because they have greater Connection to the Shard in question. The negative side-effects of their Savantism may not be necessary to get that extra power- perhaps only the Connection matters and Savantism is only one rout to obtaining it.

This makes a lot more sense to me now, as we can actually see Connection working like this with other magic systems.

Awakening requires less Breath to Awaken something with the more Breaths in total the Awakener possesses. Additionally, the Awakener gains a greater inherent knowledge of how to use their powers, much like how Allomantic Savants have a greater ability to control their powers.

Radiants require less and less Stormlight to fuel their Surgebinding the stronger their Bond- which is mostly just an extra strong Connection to a Spren- grows.

This would also help explain why Kaladin's embodiment of Honor's ideals made him stronger and therefore more resistant to Urithiru's corrupted suppression field- he not only had his Spren's natural Connection to the magic system, but he also had quite a few other more mundane Connections that drew him closer and granted him slightly more power as a result (WoB).

The uses of artificially increasing Connection (such as through F-duralumin) could be interesting to see interact with different Invested systems;

A Connector Ferring could potentially Awaken with fewer Breaths or learn more complex Commands, almost as if they possessed a higher Heightening.

They could also possibly Surgebind more efficiently, though their Spren may not approve.

It's also possible that F-duralumin could grant an Allomancer the benefits of Savantism without the downsides.

Perhaps Connecting to a Metalmind's Investiture could help a Feruchemist tap it more efficiently, particularly if tapping it at an accelerated rate. In fact, the quote makes me think we'll see this in era 3 of Mistborn;

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362/#e11150

Calderis

Feruchemical aluminum stores and taps a marker that seems to suffuse all Investiture within a person, removing or strengthening Identity. Does Feruchemical duralumin work similarly? Does tapping connection while storing in a metalmind increase the connection of the Investiture stored?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Mostly because I've got a main character who's going to be doing this, I'm not going to spoil the fun or lock myself down yet.

And of course, I think that an aspiring Hemalurgist could gain a more comprehensive knowledge of and use for Hemalurgic Bindpoints, particularly if they can Compound duralumin.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Trusk'our

[therunner]

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Before, I took this to mean that the reason Savants are so much more efficient with their Investiture because the warping of their Spiritwebs brought them closer to the SR, but now I think diferently; I believe the reason why Savants are more efficient with and have more control over their powers is because they have greater Connection to the Shard in question. The negative side-effects of their Savantism may not be necessary to get that extra power- perhaps only the Connection matters and Savantism is only one rout to obtaining it.

I think the increased efficiency is matter of Connection, however the other Savantism effects (i.e. increased effect of Tin, increased potency of Pewter etc.) are not, and are intrinsically tied to changes to spiritweb as whole.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Awakening requires less Breath to Awaken something with the more Breaths in total the Awakener possesses.

I don't think this is true. You can find better Commands that can achieve the same effect with less Breaths, but merely being of higher Heigthening won't help.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Additionally, the Awakener gains a greater inherent knowledge of how to use their powers, much like how Allomantic Savants have a greater ability to control their powers.

Heightening grants some increased knowledge, however that is tied to possessing Breaths, and those are basically entirely in physical realm.
So this does not actually seem to be result of closeness to SR, necessarily.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Radiants require less and less Stormlight to fuel their Surgebinding the stronger their Bond- which is mostly just an extra strong Connection to a Spren- grows.

This I agree with.
And I would add that it seems that Soulcaster savants seem to be more powerful/skillful, though in theory skill can be down to simple practice.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

This would also help explain why Kaladin's embodiment of Honor's ideals made him stronger and therefore more resistant to Urithiru's corrupted suppression field- he not only had his Spren's natural Connection to the magic system, but he also had quite a few other more mundane Connections that drew him closer and granted him slightly more power as a result (WoB).

This I kind of agree and kind of don't.
I think what Kaladin had was just the natural Connection through being Windrunner (after all, Teft near his death seems to get about as close as Kaladin was, and even a bit further with basically summoning Shardblade).

My personal theory is that Oaths are not 'natural' part of Surgebinding, and that pre-Ishar wild Surgebinders had no Oaths to swear. Oaths were introduced when Ishar 'reformed' Surgebinders into Knights Radiant (or Ishar's Knights as other Heralds call them), and serve as sort of gating mechanism to ensure that the greater power of Surges is accessible only to those 'worthy' in some sense.

As part of this reform, 3rd Oath allows summoning of Spren and 4th Oath allows creation of Shardplate, because these two powers are very odd 'natural' expressions of Invested Art. Especially Shardplate which is quite clearly intended as a tool of war.

So by that theory Kaladin was as Connected as any 4th Oath Radiant would be, but the gating mechanism of Oaths prevented him from accessing some of it.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

A Connector Ferring could potentially Awaken with fewer Breaths or learn more complex Commands, almost as if they possessed a higher Heightening.

Easier learning of Commands I can see, Awakening with fewer Breaths no, as per reasoning above.

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

They could also possibly Surgebind more efficiently, though their Spren may not approve.

That would be interesting. I think possible in theory, but the cost could be rather great, as they would have to store their Connection (and Bond) to Spren for some time, which the Spren might not like.
But they could simply discuss with Spren and if the Spren is willing it would be interesting tool.

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It's also possible that F-duralumin could grant an Allomancer the benefits of Savantism without the downsides.

This I disagree with.

Savantism as a whole is down to changes in Spiritweb, not just Connection. F-Duralumin could theoretically let Allomancer get more Investiture from their metals, if they strengthen their Connection to Harmony, but that would just get them to level of e.g. Lerasium Mistborn. Duralumin Compounder could plausibly use it to get to TLR level, if that is the mechanism used.

But it won't be savantism.

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Perhaps Connecting to a Metalmind's Investiture could help a Feruchemist tap it more efficiently, particularly if tapping it at an accelerated rate. In fact, the quote makes me think we'll see this in era 3 of Mistborn;

Feruchemist already must be Connected to Metalmind and its Investiture, otherwise they won't be able to tap.

So I don't think it would lead to increased efficiency in tapping, but it might allow Feruchemist to tap Metalminds that are not touching their body, though it would probably require a lot of Connection.

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And of course, I think that an aspiring Hemalurgist could gain a more comprehensive knowledge of and use for Hemalurgic Bindpoints, particularly if they can Compound duralumin.

I disagree with this, there is no evidence that Hemalurgic knowledge is granted via Connection to any Shard.
So far it seems to be simple trial and error, or increased understanding of a Shard.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Awakening requires less Breath to Awaken something with the more Breaths in total the Awakener possesses.

No, that's not true. The closer the object resembles a living thing, the easier it is to Awaken. Number of your Breaths doesn't decrease the amount of Breaths needed to Awaken stuff. Warbreaker prologue:

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The closer an object was to human shape and form, the fewer Breaths it took to Awaken
[...]
Vasher stood, then pulled out the colorless scarf he had used earlier. He tossed it over Vahr’s shoulder, then Breathed.
He didn’t bother making the scarf have human shape, didn’t need to use a bit of his hair or skin for a focus—though he did have to draw the color from his shirt.
Vasher met Vahr’s resigned eyes.
“Strangle things,” Vasher Commanded, fingers touching the quivering scarf.
It twisted immediately, pulling away a large—yet now inconsequential— amount of Breath.

The more Breaths you have the easier it is to come up with proper commands and understand more complicated ones. Warbreaker ch 49:

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She’s learning so quickly, he thought. The Commands themselves were simple to say, but providing the right mental impulse was difficult. It was like learning to control a second body. Vivenna was quick. Yes, she had a lot of Breath. That made it easier, but true Instinctive Awakening—the ability to Awaken objects without training or practice—was a gift granted only by the Sixth Heightening. That was one step beyond even what Returned had, with their single deific Breath. Vivenna was far from that stage. She learned faster than she should have, even if he knew she was frustrated by how often she got things wrong

 

[Trusk'our]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think this is true. You can find better Commands that can achieve the same effect with less Breaths, but merely being of higher Heigthening won't help.

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No, that's not true. The closer the object resembles a living thing, the easier it is to Awaken. Number of your Breaths doesn't decrease the amount of Breaths needed to Awaken stuff. Warbreaker prologue:

Very well, I respect your opinions. I thought I recalled Vasher saying that he needed fewer Breaths as a whole to Awaken something once he had obtained more Breaths, but unfortunately I don't have the book right now.

I'll try to get it from the local library at some point though. If someone else happens to find it though, I'd be more than happy to hear it (ahem, @Treamayne )

Also, what about the Godking with his Perfect Invocation? Doesn't that allow an Awakener to use fewer Breaths by more efficiently drawing color from objects?

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Heightening grants some increased knowledge, however that is tied to possessing Breaths, and those are basically entirely in physical realm.
So this does not actually seem to be result of closeness to SR, necessarily.

Breath do carry a measure of Connection with them, though it is not as large as most other forms of Investiture due to Endowment's Intent;

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https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14226

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

This I disagree with.

Savantism as a whole is down to changes in Spiritweb, not just Connection. F-Duralumin could theoretically let Allomancer get more Investiture from their metals, if they strengthen their Connection to Harmony, but that would just get them to level of e.g. Lerasium Mistborn. Duralumin Compounder could plausibly use it to get to TLR level, if that is the mechanism used.

But it won't be savantism.

This very likely could be the case. 

I also want to mention that I don't think that Connection alone would allow an Allomancer to draw more Investiture from the SR, at least not a large difference- that would be tied to the Allomancer's Innate Investiture (which could be effected by F-nicrosil). 

So while increased Connection would make them more insightful into their powers and allow them to use them more efficiently, there would be a strict upper limit.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Feruchemist already must be Connected to Metalmind and its Investiture, otherwise they won't be able to tap.

This is true. I merely hypothesize that a Feruchemist could increase the Connection between them and a Metalmind's contents to up the efficiency of tapping it.

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

So I don't think it would lead to increased efficiency in tapping, but it might allow Feruchemist to tap Metalminds that are not touching their body, though it would probably require a lot of Connection.

Interesting. Yes, I could see that happening, particularly what with Elantrians potentially learning to tap Connection to use their powers away from Elantris, not to mention the fact that the Sorceress and Shai (as an Elantrian) seem to have cracked the method as well;

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https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12895

DoritoJH

So, AonDor is super versatile and powerful.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but region-locked!

DoritoJH

Yes, it is region locked, exactly. If a full Feruchemist using nicrosil were to create an unlocked medallion that allowed an Elantrian to store Connection to Elantris' location, would it let them use AonDor at full power as long as they were tapping that Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That should work just fine.

...

Just understand that the medallion's going to have to be usable by everyone in order to work. You're going to have to jump through some hoops, but I think what you want there would work. And for those of you listening, that would be the harder way to unlock AonDor. There are easier methods.

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

I disagree with this, there is no evidence that Hemalurgic knowledge is granted via Connection to any Shard.
So far it seems to be simple trial and error, or increased understanding of a Shard.

If I understand correctly, more Connection to a Shard leads to a greater intrinsic knowledge of that Shard's mechanisms. 

I can't extend this particular post any more (I have to get ready for my workday), but I hope to continue this discussion later.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Very well, I respect your opinions. I thought I recalled Vasher saying that he needed fewer Breaths as a whole to Awaken something once he had obtained more Breaths, but unfortunately I don't have the book right now.

No, I can't find anything like that in the book, and I'm fairly certain nothing like that was in the book. As pointed out in the prologue, he just didn't care about making it in a human shape, with focus hair etc, because he could afford losing more Breaths. But if he did that, it would still require the same amount of Breaths.

28 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, what about the Godking with his Perfect Invocation? Doesn't that allow an Awakener to use fewer Breaths by more efficiently drawing color from objects?

It depends. If he has enough color then it won't change anything. But if the object is small or not that colorful already (close to gray or white), then he can get more color from it than normal Awakener and potentially use fewer Breaths. If you have no color at all, you can't Awaken, Breaths can't replace color, if you have too little color, it would require more Breaths to Awaken. Warbreaker ch 46:

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She eyed her clothes, which were now completely grey. Out of curiosity, she tried Awakening the rope again. Nothing happened. She picked up a stick, then Awakened the rope. It worked this time, the stick losing its color, though it took a lot more breath. Perhaps this was because the stick wasn’t very colorful. The tree trunk didn’t work for color, though. Presumably, one couldn’t draw color from something that was itself alive.

 

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Breath do carry a measure of Connection with them, though it is not as large as most other forms of Investiture due to Endowment's Intent;

Ah, interesting.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I also want to mention that I don't think that Connection alone would allow an Allomancer to draw more Investiture from the SR, at least not a large difference- that would be tied to the Allomancer's Innate Investiture (which could be effected by F-nicrosil).

True, however we also know that Lerasium creates strong Connection to Preservation. That hints that Connection is necessary for Allomancers to use their powers, after all they get Investiture from SR.

Innate Investiture might have some effect like this too, but honestly I am unwilling to guess, we know way too little.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

So while increased Connection would make them more insightful into their powers and allow them to use them more efficiently, there would be a strict upper limit.

Connection to what though?
Connection to Preservation won't make you more insightful, Elend was Lerasium Mistborn and so in this way more Connected than Vin, yet Vin was a prodigy with Allomancy.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

This is true. I merely hypothesize that a Feruchemist could increase the Connection between them and a Metalmind's contents to up the efficiency of tapping it.

I don't think it would help.
The decrease in efficiency comes from either

1. need to use up some energy to compress attribute
2.  to adapt body more to large influx of attribute (required secondary powers so to speak, like F-Iron not crushing user).

Or it could be both. Connection would not help in either case.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Interesting. Yes, I could see that happening, particularly what with Elantrians potentially learning to tap Connection to use their powers away from Elantris, not to mention the fact that the Sorceress and Shai (as an Elantrian) seem to have cracked the method as well;

Ah, good link thanks.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

If I understand correctly, more Connection to a Shard leads to a greater intrinsic knowledge of that Shard's mechanisms.

Well, I don't think that is acutally the case.

The only Invested art where more Shards Investiture leads to some knowledge of Invested Art is Awakening. In no other Invested Art do we see anything like that happening, nor anyone mentions it.

[Duxredux]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Connection to what though?
Connection to Preservation won't make you more insightful, Elend was Lerasium Mistborn and so in this way more Connected than Vin, yet Vin was a prodigy with Allomancy.

I find that debatable. Elend had relatively little training and he was still fighting off Inquisitors with decades of experience. Elend was more powerful, yes, but he also was a prodigy with the rate he learned, just not on the same scale as Vin. Was Elend sufficiently Connected to Preservation to Ascend? Probably not, he hadn't had the attuning effect of the Well of Ascension. Vin certainly was, and she was as you say, the prodigy. I could be wrong, but Vin also seemed to get more intrinsic understanding of how to function as Preservation than Kelsier. Kelsier who only had a tie to the Cognitive Realm and only could Ascend using borrowed Connection. That said, I don't think just adding more Connection to a powerset will improve Investiture efficiency any more than I would expect Szeth and his group of Windrunners to gain a greater inherent understanding of Roshar just from Ishar Connecting them to the ground. Clearly there are different kinds of Connection as emotional bonds don't physically glue people together, though Bridge Four at times have been more united most glue bonds.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

 

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If I understand correctly, more Connection to a Shard leads to a greater intrinsic knowledge of that Shard's mechanisms.

Well, I don't think that is acutally the case.

The only Invested art where more Shards Investiture leads to some knowledge of Invested Art is Awakening. In no other Invested Art do we see anything like that happening, nor anyone mentions it.

More Connection or more access to Shardic Investiture? Those are two separate concepts. In most cases this could simply be a matter of scale. Returned are some of the more highly Invested beings in the Cosmere that we see, and they don't have access to the Instinctive Awakening available to the 6th Heightening. In fact, they need 1.75 times more Investiture than what they current have to obtain the 6th Heightening (5th: 2000, 6th: 3500). YatNP spoiler:

Spoiler

Hoid describes a yoki-hijo as being more Invested than an Elantrian. More Invested than a Returned. I think he's implying that Returned are more Invested than Elantrians. Add it:

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Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

I think the Trusk'our's idea still has potential merit, but to obtain that degree of Investiture is extremely difficult for nearly every magic system that we've seen. Maybe a huge amount of targeted Connection could create a similar effect to 6th Heightening instinctive Awakening, but until Bondsmiths get out more we may not see how exactly this all shakes out.

A few cases of individuals with apparently greater than average Connection to a Shard and the Shard's Investiture that were unusually fast at learning:

• Raoden who learned AonDor and was tracing incredibly complicated formulas with less than 3 months of training while performing a benign take over of Elantris. He was the one who would start glowing as the Dor tried to force it's way through him like an Aon. He gets injured, goes Hoed, gets tossed in a Shardpool and gets a mental visualization of Elantris and the connected cities forming a giant Aon Rao. Coincidence, Connection, or just epic Sanderlanche?
• Vivenna who not only had a decent amount of Breaths but also had the blood of a Returned in her, was progressing faster than she should have by Vasher's experience.
• Vin, the prodigy and chosen Vessel to Ascend to Preservation was one of the most skilled Mistborn. Ever. Leras complemented Kelsier on his fight with a single Steel Inquisitor and that fight wasn't on the same scale as Vin fighting an entire Murder of Inquisitors solo.

[Treamayne]

16 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I recently had a particular part of a WoB pointed out to me by @therunner;

Before, I took this to mean that the reason Savants are so much more efficient with their Investiture because the warping of their Spiritwebs brought them closer to the SR, but now I think diferently; I believe the reason why Savants are more efficient with and have more control over their powers is because they have greater Connection to the Shard in question. The negative side-effects of their Savantism may not be necessary to get that extra power- perhaps only the Connection matters and Savantism is only one rout to obtaining it.

I don;t think that Savantism has much, if anything, to do with Connection. At least, to me, their efficiency is more about the conduit. As a mundane example, picture if you will, a Computer on a network. Weaker strained manifestations of investiture would be like the (very) old serial-connected Hub devices, or a 600 baud modem (a la Wargames). "Normal" manifestations of investiture have a Cat 5 or Cat 6 cable as the conduit. Howver, a Savant that has used so much investiture that they have warped their Spiritweb has, effectively, upgraded to Fibre Optic cable. The Connection(s) are the same, but the path the investiture travels has improved. . . become more efficient.

16 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Awakening requires less Breath to Awaken something with the more Breaths in total the Awakener possesses. Additionally, the Awakener gains a greater inherent knowledge of how to use their powers, much like how Allomantic Savants have a greater ability to control their powers.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think this is true. You can find better Commands that can achieve the same effect with less Breaths, but merely being of higher Heigthening won't help.

Heightening grants some increased knowledge, however that is tied to possessing Breaths, and those are basically entirely in physical realm.
So this does not actually seem to be result of closeness to SR, necessarily.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, that's not true. The closer the object resembles a living thing, the easier it is to Awaken. Number of your Breaths doesn't decrease the amount of Breaths needed to Awaken stuff. Warbreaker prologue:

The more Breaths you have the easier it is to come up with proper commands and understand more complicated ones. Warbreaker ch 49:

Spoiler

The closer an object was to human shape and form, the fewer Breaths it took to Awaken
[...]
Vasher stood, then pulled out the colorless scarf he had used earlier. He tossed it over Vahr’s shoulder, then Breathed.
He didn’t bother making the scarf have human shape, didn’t need to use a bit of his hair or skin for a focus—though he did have to draw the color from his shirt.
Vasher met Vahr’s resigned eyes.
“Strangle things,” Vasher Commanded, fingers touching the quivering scarf.
It twisted immediately, pulling away a large—yet now inconsequential— amount of Breath.

 

The amount of breath held by a person makes it easier to Awaken, but does not affect the number of breaths used to Awaken - that's the Law of BioChromatic Parallelism and color-as-fuel. Warbreaker:

Spoiler

Ch 46:

Quote

This is per the Law of BioChromatic Parallelism: the closer a host is to a living shape and form, the easier it is to Awaken. BioChroma is the power of life, and so it seeks patterns of life. That, however, leads us to another law—the Law of Comparability. It states that the amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn’t necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened. A piece of cloth cut into a square and a piece of cloth cut into the shape of a person will take very different amounts of Breath to Awaken, but will be essentially the same once they have been Invested.

<snip>

“Type Two BioChromatic entities,” he said, “are what people in Hallandren call Lifeless. They are different from Type One entities in several ways. Lifeless can be created at will, and require only a few Breaths to Awaken— anywhere between one and hundreds, depending on the Commands used— and they feed off of their own color when being Invested. 

<snip>

“But Awakeners really haven’t been around that long. The more you learn about BioChroma, the more you’ll realize that there are more things that we don’t know than there are things we do. Why are the specific Commands so important, and why do they have to be spoken in your native language? What brings Type One entities—Returned—back to life in the first place? Why are Lifeless so dull-minded, while Returned fully sentient?”

Vivenna nodded.

“Creating Type Three BioChromatic entities is what we traditionally call ‘Awakening,’ ” Vasher continued. “That’s when you create a BioChromatic manifestation in an organic host that is far removed from having been alive. Cloth works the best, though sticks, reeds, and other plant matter can be used.”

<snip>

“Anyway, Type Three entities—regular Awakened objects—are different. BioChroma doesn’t stick to them very well at all. The result is that they require quite a bit of Investiture—often well over a hundred Breaths—to Awaken them. The benefit of this, of course, is that the Breath can be drawn back out again. This has allowed for quite a bit more experimentation, and that has resulted in a more comprehensive understanding of Awakening techniques.”

“You mean the Commands?” Vivenna asked.

“Right,” Vasher said.

Annotations to Ch 1:

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One thing to realize is that the Idrians’ attempts to make their city colorless are more superstition than they are effective. It’s much harder to get colors away from an Awakener than the Idrians think. For instance, black is one of the most powerful colors to use for fueling Awakening—but the Idrians don’t even consider it a color. Their browns and tans would also work for Awakening.

Arcanum:

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Note Four: Each additional Breath grants some things, no matter which Heightening an Awakener has achieved. The more breath one has, the more resistant to disease and aging a person is, the easier it is for them to distinguish colors, the more naturally they can learn to Awaken, and the stronger their life sense.

Ch 33:

Quote

“Well,” Denth said, “there are a lot of Commands. If you want to bring a rope to life—like that one you tried to use back in the alleyway—a good Command is ‘hold things.’ Speak it with a clear voice, willing your Breath to act. If you do it right, the rope will grab whatever is closest. ‘Protect me’ is another good one, though it can be interpreted in fairly strange ways if you don’t imagine exactly what you want.”

“Imagine?” Vivenna asked.

He nodded. “You have to form the Command in your head, not just speak it. The Breath you give up, it’s part of your life. Your soul, you Idrians would say. When you Awaken something, it becomes part of you. If you’re good— and practiced—the things you Awaken will do what you expect of them. They’re part of you. They understand, just like your hands understand what you want them to do.”

“I’ll start practicing, then,” she said.

He nodded. “You should pick it up fairly quickly. You’re a clever woman, and you have a lot of Breaths.”

“That makes a difference?”

He nodded, looking somewhat distant. As if distracted by his own thoughts. “The more Breaths you hold when you start, the easier it is for you to learn how to Awaken. It’s like…I don’t know, the Breath is more part of you. Or you’re more part of it.”

She sat back, contemplating that. “Thank you,” she finally said.

Ch 49:

Quote

She’s learning so quickly, he thought. The Commands themselves were simple to say, but providing the right mental impulse was difficult. It was like learning to control a second body. Vivenna was quick. Yes, she had a lot of Breath. That made it easier, but true Instinctive Awakening—the ability to Awaken objects without training or practice—was a gift granted only by the Sixth Heightening. That was one step beyond even what Returned had, with their single deific Breath. Vivenna was far from that stage. She learned faster than she should have, even if he knew she was frustrated by how often she got things wrong.

 

The trouble, of course, is that the calculus of how many breaths any given Awakening requires has too many factors to isolate any single factor as being pivotal. The amount and type of color, the Command (including Intent and Visualization), the type of material and how far removed from "life" it is, as well as the form of that life (corpse vs. clothes vs ropes and cloth - etc.) You could probably chart every single Awakening shown on-screen in every Cosmere book and still not find a definitive mathematic formula of constants and variables. All I can say is that none of the sources (text, annotation, WoBs) explicitly say that the Awakener's heightening affects the amount of breath used. 

16 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Radiants require less and less Stormlight to fuel their Surgebinding the stronger their Bond- which is mostly just an extra strong Connection to a Spren- grows.

True, but that is the nature of the Nahel Bond, not a Connection to the Shard(s). In fact, most manifestations of Investiture are influenced by the Shard's intent, but not necessarily  directly "created" - WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

From what I understand, Ruin and Preservation create the world together, and they created humanity as copies of the original humankind. So how did they give Allomancy to Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So the magic systems are kind of built into the setting and the world. And there are certain natural pathways that exist, in the same way there are certain natural pathways for them to create life. Which is my explanation for why life is so similar on all the different planets, is that they're following natural pathways, and these magics are kind of the same way. For instance, Lightweaving predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. A lot of these other things are suggestive of magics that existed before that were built around Adonalsium. They weren't 100% created by the Shards, but they also do have the Shards' influence on them.

Quote

Questioner

So, filter that the Shard's power-- Investiture, I guess? Is it that-- So on Roshar, does it count as three Shards stacked on top of each other, next to each other, that's forming different magic systems.

Brandon Sanderson

It definitely is influencing it. But, not-- perhaps not as much as you might think. I mean, it is, though.

Quote

CaptainRyan

*written* Could a Shard refuse to "fuel" a magic user? E.g. Could Preservation have refused to "fuel" Ham's pewter? (Please, for the question, assume Preservation is whole and undamaged.)

Brandon Sanderson

*written* No, but he could have interfered.

*spoken* So, the answer is "no, he couldn't." Like, if you just had the Allomancy going, like--

CaptainRyan

They can't shut you off?

Brandon Sanderson

They can't shut you off, but they can interfere with you using it. They could do other things. 

 

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Very well, I respect your opinions. I thought I recalled Vasher saying that he needed fewer Breaths as a whole to Awaken something once he had obtained more Breaths, but unfortunately I don't have the book right now.

I'll try to get it from the local library at some point though. If someone else happens to find it though, I'd be more than happy to hear it (ahem, @Treamayne )

Did that help?

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, what about the Godking with his Perfect Invocation? Doesn't that allow an Awakener to use fewer Breaths by more efficiently drawing color from objects?

We do not yet know exactly what the effect of Perfect Invocation is; however, it is implied that by using more of the color in the awakening, the awakened object is better able to respond to the Command and Visualization. Warbreaker Ch 57:

Spoiler

The entire room burst with color, the white stones fuzzing and splitting, like light through a prism. The doors to the room exploded. A twisting mass of colorful cloths shot through it, like the countless tentacles of an enraged sea leviathan. They churned and curled, and Siri recognized tapestries, carpets, and long lengths of silk from the palace decorations.

Awakened cloth slapped aside Lifeless, curling around them, tossing them into the air. Priests cried out as they were snatched up, and a long, thin length of violet cloth snapped forward and wrapped around Bluefingers’s arm.

The surging mass undulated, churning, and Siri could finally see a figure walking in the middle of it. A man of epic proportions. Black of hair, pale of face, youthful in appearance, but of great age. Bluefingers struggled to ram his knife into Siri’s chest, but the God King raised a hand.

“You will stop!” Susebron said in a clear voice.

Bluefingers froze, looking toward the God King in amazement. The dagger slipped from his stunned fingers as an Awakened carpet twisted around him, pulling him away from Siri.

Note that "you will stop" is not likely to be a normally-valid Command - but because of his Heightening (and possibly by draining extra color with Perfect Invocation) it was all Susebron needed to the massive effort protecting Siri and wrapping Bluefingers up. Of course, the 10th Heighteneing Mental Command may also play a factor. Ch 55:

Spoiler

“The God King,” she said.

“Can’t use his Breath,” Vasher said. “The man’s tongue was removed when he was a child.”

“And you can’t get it out of him somehow?”

Vasher shrugged. “The Tenth Heightening allows a man to Command mentally, without speaking, but it can take months of training to learn how to do that—even if you have someone to teach you. I think his priests must know how, so they can transfer that wealth of Breath from one king to another, but I doubt they’ve trained him yet. One of their duties is to keep him from using his Breaths in the first place.”

“He’s still our best option,” Vivenna said.

 

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

I find that debatable. Elend had relatively little training and he was still fighting off Inquisitors with decades of experience. Elend was more powerful, yes, but he also was a prodigy with the rate he learned, just not on the same scale as Vin.

Elend was in no way a prodigy with Allomancy. He was simply the most powerful one around by rather large margin, which let him help fight off Inquisitors.
Remember that primary advantage of Inquisitors was that they had healing/speed and more Atium then their opponents. With Electrum, second advantage is negated, and with knowledge of lynchpin spikes the first one is limited.

If anything the second most skilled/prodigious Mistborn was Kelsier, and he as you note had far weaker Connection than Vin did, and definitely weaker Connection than Elend.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Was Elend sufficiently Connected to Preservation to Ascend? Probably not, he hadn't had the attuning effect of the Well of Ascension. 

More Connection or more access to Shardic Investiture? Those are two separate concepts. In most cases this could simply be a matter of scale. Returned are some of the more highly Invested beings in the Cosmere that we see, and they don't have access to the Instinctive Awakening available to the 6th Heightening. In fact, they need 1.75 times more Investiture than what they current have to obtain the 6th Heightening (5th: 2000, 6th: 3500). YatNP spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hoid describes a yoki-hijo as being more Invested than an Elantrian. More Invested than a Returned. I think he's implying that Returned are more Invested than Elantrians. Add it:

 

I think the Trusk'our's idea still has potential merit, but to obtain that degree of Investiture is extremely difficult for nearly every magic system that we've seen. Maybe a huge amount of targeted Connection could create a similar effect to 6th Heightening instinctive Awakening, but until Bondsmiths get out more we may not see how exactly this all shakes out.

From what we see, very few individuals are sufficiently Connected. We have only 3-4 examples, Vin, Sazed (who can be counted twice) and Taravangian.
Taravangian is result of Cultivation meddling.
Vin and Sazed were steered by Leras and his prophecies.
So so far, all the Ascensions were in some way influenced by an active Shard.

Quote

Vin certainly was, and she was as you say, the prodigy. I could be wrong, but Vin also seemed to get more intrinsic understanding of how to function as Preservation than Kelsier. Kelsier who only had a tie to the Cognitive Realm and only could Ascend using borrowed Connection.

Vin was groomed for that role and more in-tune with Intent than Kelsier, so that alone means she would have easier time with the power.
And Leras mentions that because Kelsier is Cognitive Shadow and has no link to PR he will have difficulty wielding the power if I remember correctly.

Quote

That said, I don't think just adding more Connection to a powerset will improve Investiture efficiency any more than I would expect Szeth and his group of Windrunners to gain a greater inherent understanding of Roshar just from Ishar Connecting them to the ground.

To some powersets it clearly does, e.g. Surgebinding. Higher Oath = deeper Bond with Spren = stronger Connection to spren, and you get more efficient.
We know that at least to some extent strength (and efficiency) in Allomancy is related to Connection to Preservation, since that is what burning Lerasium does and the effect scales with amount of Lerasium burned.

Quote

Clearly there are different kinds of Connection as emotional bonds don't physically glue people together, though Bridge Four at times have been more united most glue bonds.

Yes, there are. Though in this particular case we are discussing Connection to a Shard, as was called out in OP.

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

More Connection or more access to Shardic Investiture? Those are two separate concepts. In most cases this could simply be a matter of scale. Returned are some of the more highly Invested beings in the Cosmere that we see, and they don't have access to the Instinctive Awakening available to the 6th Heightening. In fact, they need 1.75 times more Investiture than what they current have to obtain the 6th Heightening (5th: 2000, 6th: 3500). YatNP spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Hoid describes a yoki-hijo as being more Invested than an Elantrian. More Invested than a Returned. I think he's implying that Returned are more Invested than Elantrians. Add it:

 

 

I would say the spoiler actually support the thesis that being Invested won't grant you more knowledge in general.

Spoiler

Yumi quite clearly does not show any in-depth understanding of Invested Art. She is skilled, but that is because of centuries of practice, which is explicitly called out in the book.
But despite being the most Invested person we have seen, she has very little understanding of the Invested Art.

Also, Nightblood is the most Invested being short of Shards, and he does not really demonstrate much knowledge on Awakening or anything else really.

Based on that, I don't think being Invested will get you knowledge, it is only specifically within Awakening.

Quote

A few cases of individuals with apparently greater than average Connection to a Shard and the Shard's Investiture that were unusually fast at learning:

• Raoden who learned AonDor and was tracing incredibly complicated formulas with less than 3 months of training while performing a benign take over of Elantris. He was the one who would start glowing as the Dor tried to force it's way through him like an Aon. He gets injured, goes Hoed, gets tossed in a Shardpool and gets a mental visualization of Elantris and the connected cities forming a giant Aon Rao. Coincidence, Connection, or just epic Sanderlanche?
• Vivenna who not only had a decent amount of Breaths but also had the blood of a Returned in her, was progressing faster than she should have by Vasher's experience.
• Vin, the prodigy and chosen Vessel to Ascend to Preservation was one of the most skilled Mistborn. Ever. Leras complemented Kelsier on his fight with a single Steel Inquisitor and that fight wasn't on the same scale as Vin fighting an entire Murder of Inquisitors solo.

And all of those are also protagonists. Of course they are prodigies, that does not mean they are more Connected to a Shard than average user.

And I would note that Vin killed by that murder of Inquisitors after less than ~30 seconds, the moment she landed significant hit Inquisitors stopped screwing around and ended her.
Only the fact that she was capable of breathing in the Mists (all of it) saved her in that moment. It had nothing to do with her skill, and everything to do with the fact she was actively Ascending in that moment.

That is not to say that Vin is not extraordinarily skilled, but it is simply not true that she could solo bunch of Inquisitors at once in normal conditions.

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

We do not yet know exactly what the effect of Perfect Invocation is; however, it is implied that by using more of the color in the awakening, the awakened object is better able to respond to the Command and Visualization. Warbreaker Ch 57:

Where? In that quote? No, I don't see it working that way. Checked out the quote form ch 46 above - if there isn't enough color for Awakening, it will take much more Breaths to Awaken, but the effect will be the same per the Law of Comparability (the amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn’t necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened). You just need a certain amount of color to Awaken, there is an upper limit of how much color is needed:

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Do specific colors have an impact on Awakening in Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not usually, you just need a certain amount to Awaken. But there can be more due to various reasons connected to the cosmere. It is connected to the significance of eye color on Roshar.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Some colors, like dyes made out of Edgli flowers, are more efficient for Awakening:

Spoiler

EHyde

I was curious about the dye in Hallandren, the Tears of Edgli. So, that can be used to make a whole bunch of different colors, right? Does the flower come in different colors? Or is that something in the dye process, or-?

Brandon Sanderson

The flower comes in different colors.

EHyde

And it dyes all fiber types the same?

Brandon Sanderson

It does not dye all fiber types the same.

EHyde

In theory, if they had synthetic fibers would it work on them?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say yes.

EHyde

Is it more fuel-efficient for Awakening?

Brandon Sanderson

Is what more-?

EHyde

Like, color used in Awakening-?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those dyes are very effective for Awakening.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

How well an Awakened object respond to Commands is based on Visualization, there is no proof the amount of color matters:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher Fights the Guards, Then Creates a Lifeless Squirrel

I wanted to show the creation of a Lifeless somewhere in this book, as I think the process is interesting. The draining of color happens in a slightly different way than in regular Awakening, though it's similar. In this case, the creature draws color from its own body in order to come to life.

The better your imagining of the Command when you make it (not the orders you give it, but the one when you give it the Breath), the more intelligent and capable of following orders the Lifeless is. Later in the book, for instance, people are surprised at how good this little squirrel is at doing what it is told.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 19, 2010)

 

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Note that "you will stop" is not likely to be a normally-valid Command - but because of his Heightening (and possibly by draining extra color with Perfect Invocation) it was all Susebron needed to the massive effort protecting Siri and wrapping Bluefingers up.

That was not a Command -  Bluefingers' hand was already wrapped by a cloth and stopped before Susebron said those words, not to mention all rebels and Lifeless he knocked out. This was simply an order and a threat to Bluefingers, which made him look at Susebron and realize what was happening, not a Command to Awakened objects. Susebron didn't use a single, vocal Command on pages, he always uses mental ones.

[Trusk'our]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

True, however we also know that Lerasium creates strong Connection to Preservation. That hints that Connection is necessary for Allomancers to use their powers, after all they get Investiture from SR.

Innate Investiture might have some effect like this too, but honestly I am unwilling to guess, we know way too little.

Yes, Connection to Preservation is necessary to fuel Allomancy; that's the sort of the "bridge" that allows them to draw on the Shard's Investiture. 

I think that the way it works is that the Investiture in the Allomancer's Spiritweb acts almost like an electric magnet; when the Allomancer burns metal, it turns on the "magnet" and pulls Investiture directly from Preservation into the Allomancer, using the Connection between the Allomancer and Preservation to flow between the two. So more Connection would make the process more efficient and possibly allow for more total Investiture to be drawn out, but the base Investiture of the Allomancer- their raw Allomantic strength- would still need to be increased for them to draw out a noticeably larger amount of Preservation's Investiture (though Connection would probably still make the process work more efficiently).

This is a bit of a leap of logic though, so take it with a grain of salt. Hopefully we learn more about Allomancy's (and Feruchemy's and Hemalurgy's) Realmatics more in era 3 so I can make a more definitive statement on how it all works.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I don;t think that Savantism has much, if anything, to do with Connection. At least, to me, their efficiency is more about the conduit. As a mundane example, picture if you will, a Computer on a network. Weaker strained manifestations of investiture would be like the (very) old serial-connected Hub devices, or a 600 baud modem (a la Wargames). "Normal" manifestations of investiture have a Cat 5 or Cat 6 cable as the conduit. Howver, a Savant that has used so much investiture that they have warped their Spiritweb has, effectively, upgraded to Fibre Optic cable. The Connection(s) are the same, but the path the investiture travels has improved. . . become more efficient.

What about the WoB though? It specifically says that Connection is at least part of what makes a Savant better at using their Investiture.

You and @therunner are probably right that the warping of the Spiritweb from Savantism brings some things to the Allomancer that simply increasing Connection can't do though, such as Spook being able to filter out his bandages from his sight or being able to reactively use his Allomancy to dodge attacks.

Quote

Warsaw signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

So there is some loss of power along the way? How do savants work into that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

The amount of breath held by a person makes it easier to Awaken, but does not affect the number of breaths used to Awaken - that's the Law of BioChromatic Parallelism and color-as-fuel. Warbreaker:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ch 46:

Annotations to Ch 1:

Arcanum:

Ch 33:

Ch 49:

 

The trouble, of course, is that the calculus of how many breaths any given Awakening requires has too many factors to isolate any single factor as being pivotal. The amount and type of color, the Command (including Intent and Visualization), the type of material and how far removed from "life" it is, as well as the form of that life (corpse vs. clothes vs ropes and cloth - etc.) You could probably chart every single Awakening shown on-screen in every Cosmere book and still not find a definitive mathematic formula of constants and variables. All I can say is that none of the sources (text, annotation, WoBs) explicitly say that the Awakener's heightening affects the amount of breath used. 

True, but that is the nature of the Nahel Bond, not a Connection to the Shard(s). In fact, most manifestations of Investiture are influenced by the Shard's intent, but not necessarily  directly "created" - WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Did that help?

yes it did, thank you 

Oh well, perhaps Connection via F-duralumin alone can't up an Awakener's game.

Maybe F-nicrosil could though?

Edited September 29, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

What about the WoB though? It specifically says that Connection is at least part of what makes a Savant better at using their Investiture.

Actually, that is not what it says at all. It is one of Brandon;s favorite dodges. Correlation does not imply causation. Let's examine again:

Quote

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

• Savants can use it way more efficiently.  - End of sentence - Savants are more effient with investiture.
• They are more Connected to the Shard. - Savants have more connection to the Shard - which could simply be another side effect of a warped Spiritweb, not necessarily what causes the Investiture Efficiency.
• Closer to Spiritual Realm. - Another side effect of a warped Spiritweb - so much investiture has passed through their system that it has brought theie Cognitive and Physical bodies closer to their (warped) Spiritual Nature. 

I'm not trying to say you are definitively wrong. I am trying to say that your interpretation is not the only valid interpretation of that WoB without further data. 

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Where? In that quote? No, I don't see it working that way.

That's okay - we are allowed (and even encouraged) to disagree - that's what helps these conversations bear fruit. 

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Susebron didn't use a single, vocal Command on pages, he always uses mental ones

Not necessarily true, and very unlikely. Vasher (who has personal experience with the 10th Heighteneing) has just said (also quoted above) "The Tenth Heightening allows a man to Command mentally, without speaking, but it can take months of training to learn how to do that—even if you have someone to teach you." Just because we did not see his use of audible commands on-sceen (as he left the prison in search of Siri) does not mean he hasn't been using them - unless you think that somehow, with zero training, Susebron went straight from no Awakening experience to better-than-Vasher levels of mental commands.

You may not think "you will stop" was a Command (probably because Siri did not hear any Commands before that - which does not imply they weren't being used) but for all we know he Commanded "Find Siri" or "Trap Priests" multiple hallways ago and they would not have heard a think (other than the building shaking with the force of Susebron's Command). I, personally, think that "You will stop" was a Command with the visualization of how he wanted his Awakened Fabrics to trap and save Siri. While the Command is not a normal Command by any means; to me, his heightening, number of breaths and visualtions make up the difference of poor wording - and yes, I think it is possible that Perfect Invocation is what helped the Awakenings to interpret the Visualization of the Command. 

I fully recognize it is only one interpretation of the events, but I think it makes more sense than perfect mental commands with no training at all - when we've already been told that even Vasher required training and/or practice to make mental commands work.

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

if there isn't enough color for Awakening, it will take much more Breaths to Awaken, but the effect will be the same per the Law of Comparability (the amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn’t necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened). You just need a certain amount of color to Awaken, there is an upper limit of how much color is needed:

Law of Comparability is about the quantity of Breath. Yes, not enough color-for-fuel means more Breath is required (or we believe so, because Vivenna thinks so - but she may be wrong). What I think (and mentioned is not definitve - just my interpretation) is that Perfect Invocation, but draining color to White instead of Gray makes the Awakening better able to interpret and act upon the Command and Visualization. Kind of like a car - 87 octane will work (usually), but 93 might give slightly better performance. Not required, just some extra Oomph, if you can use it. 

[alder24]

Just now, Treamayne said:

Not necessarily true, and very unlikely. Vasher (who has personal experience with the 10th Heighteneing) has just said (also quoted above) "The Tenth Heightening allows a man to Command mentally, without speaking, but it can take months of training to learn how to do that—even if you have someone to teach you." Just because we did not see his use of audible commands on-sceen (as he left the prison in search of Siri) does not mean he hasn't been using them - unless you think that somehow, with zero training, Susebron went straight from no Awakening experience to better-than-Vasher levels of mental commands.

I was specifically talking about Susebron's Awakening on pages, not off screen - we don't know if he Awakened with voice in prison or when searching for Siri. We do know that he didn't use any audible Commands when we saw him from Siri's perspective.

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I, personally, think that "You will stop" was a Command with the visualization of how he wanted his Awakened Fabrics to trap and save Siri. While the Command is not a normal Command by any means; to me, his heightening, number of breaths and visualtions make up the difference of poor wording - and yes, I think it is possible that Perfect Invocation is what helped the Awakenings to interpret the Visualization of the Command. 

It's not about wording, it's about the cause-effect - Awakened objects had already stopped every rebel, Lifeless and Bluefingers himself from doing any harm to Siri - however Bluefingers was still trying to push his dagger into Siri while being tied by Awakened cloth. and he probably didn't notice the God-King entering the room. The only effect "you will stop" had was on Bluefingers - he froze, looked at Susebron and dropped his dagger. Unless the 10th Heightening allows for Commanding living people, similarly to emotional Allomancy (which is a possibility tbf), those words couldn't be a Command, because everything had already happened before he said them. Because of that I think those had to be simple words aimed at Bluefingers, not an Awakening Command.

28 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Law of Comparability is about the quantity of Breath

Yes, that was my point. Awakening that took more Breaths because there wasn't enough color, would still perform the same as Awakening that has enough color and took fewer Breaths.

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Yes, not enough color-for-fuel means more Breath is required (or we believe so, because Vivenna thinks so - but she may be wrong).

Vivenna clearly felt that the rope required more Breaths to Awakened, and Awakeners can simply feel those things, so I have no doubt that's true.

19 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

What I think (and mentioned is not definitve - just my interpretation) is that Perfect Invocation, but draining color to White instead of Gray makes the Awakening better able to interpret and act upon the Command and Visualization.

I disagree, but this is my opinion. What makes Awakening better is a good Visualization (which is confirmed, assuming Commands and Intents are the same), while Perfect Invocation allows you to use less color, as you're draining more color per the same area, just like a Radiant with higher oath uses less Stormlight (this is more or less speculation). There is an upper limit on amount of color needed (confirmed by WoB), so draining color into white would allow you to reach that limit faster, and use up less colored area than turning to gray - but there should be no change in execution of object's Command and Visualization, especially if that limit was reached with and without Perfect Invocation.

Taking the squirrel Lifeless as an example - a good Awakener like Vasher would be able to make a better Lifeless with better Visualization , than someone inexperienced, but both would use the same Command, 1 Breath and the same amount of color to Awaken it. The squirrel used by Vasher was already gray and it was still extremely effective, so the amount of color used for Awakening likely has no effect on Awakening performing better at fulfilling its Command and Visualization. But Visualization is the most important factor, and red or black coloration of the fur shouldn't change anything.

We literally still have no idea what draining color in Awakening actually does, so we can only speculate how Perfect Invocation would affect Awakening. 

[Treamayne]

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

We literally still have no idea what draining color in Awakening actually does, so we can only speculate how Perfect Invocation would affect Awakening.

Absolutely concur. 
 

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

The only effect "you will stop" had was on Bluefingers - he froze, looked at Susebron and dropped his dagger.

Not correct. Here's the quote:

Spoiler

“You will stop!” Susebron said in a clear voice.

Bluefingers froze, looking toward the God King in amazement. The dagger slipped from his stunned fingers as an Awakened carpet twisted around him, pulling him away from Siri.

The Carpet wrapped him and pulled him away causing the dagger to slip. That, to me, is very different from "dropped his dagger."

What it really comes down to is that we disagree on if "You will Stop" is a Command. There is no way to prove or disprove either interpretation - other than Vasher's quote in Ch 55 implying that Susebron could not yet be using Mental Commands without training and the annotations noting that he specifically has not received that training. 

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Vivenna clearly felt that the rope required more Breaths to Awakened, and Awakeners can simply feel those things, so I have no doubt that's true.

Agree that she clearly felt the Awakening use more Breath. The part of which I am skeptical is her guess that the only reason it needed more breaths was because the amout or vibrancy of color used was the only reason "why" more breaths were used. 

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Perfect Invocation allows you to use less color, as you're draining more color per the same area,

Great theory, very viable

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

There is an upper limit on amount of color needed (confirmed by WoB)

Nope, not confirmed. For two reasons - here's the WoB Again (scroll prevention)

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Do specific colors have an impact on Awakening in Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not usually, you just need a certain amount to Awaken. But there can be more due to various reasons connected to the cosmere. It is connected to the significance of eye color on Roshar.

1. "Certain amount to Awaken" means there is a minumum
   • Minimum is not the same as maximum - and "upper limit" implies a maximum amount of color that can be used, 
2. The question is about if a specific color has an effect (such as gem color affecting the Surge of Transformation), not about if draining color more completely has an effect (which is what we are discussing with Perfect Invocation). 

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Taking the squirrel Lifeless as an example - a good Awakener like Vasher would be able to make a better Lifeless with better Visualization , than someone inexperienced, but both would use the same Command, 1 Breath and the same amount of color to Awaken it. The squirrel used by Vasher was already gray and it was still extremely effective, so the amount of color used for Awakening likely has no effect on Awakening performing better at fulfilling its Command and Visualization. But Visualization is the most important factor, and red or black coloration of the fur shouldn't change anything.

Absolutely. But what we do not yet know is if an Awakeneer with Perfect Invocation draining the grey (or red or black) squirrel to White would have had an effect. I think it would. 

Granted the squirrel was already a near masterwork (because Vasher's just that good) - but if Color is the Fuel of Awakening, I can't help but think that "better fuel" has to have some "improved performace" and, based on known information, I think the improved performance is a greater ability for the awakened object to act on its Command and Visualization. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Actually, that is not what it says at all. It is one of Brandon;s favorite dodges. Correlation does not imply causation. Let's examine again:

• Savants can use it way more efficiently.  - End of sentence - Savants are more effient with investiture.
• They are more Connected to the Shard. - Savants have more connection to the Shard - which could simply be another side effect of a warped Spiritweb, not necessarily what causes the Investiture Efficiency.
• Closer to Spiritual Realm. - Another side effect of a warped Spiritweb - so much investiture has passed through their system that it has brought theie Cognitive and Physical bodies closer to their (warped) Spiritual Nature. 

I'm not trying to say you are definitively wrong. I am trying to say that your interpretation is not the only valid interpretation of that WoB without further data. 

Fair enough. I don't think I'm fully convinced at this time, though I appreciate that you're willing to come up with a decent argument to support your claim.

I wish we'd see more Realmatics in play- then we'd have more evidence to figure out how all this stuff works definitively.