Question about spren and dead things

[WakeUpWolfgang]

In Words of Radiance, Stick is talking through Pattern making the stick alive with a spren. In Oathbringer Pattern talks about dead things.

"Humans don't care about the dead. You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skin of corpses. Corpses are things to you."

Wouldn't that make stick dead? Or if a part of a living breaks off would that make a new spren? Then it would being up the question if 2 or more things are put together would the spren combine into 1 spren? Note I haven't read more then what is in the Stormlight Archive. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

Just now, WakeUpWolfgang said:

In Words of Radiance, Stick is talking through Pattern making the stick alive with a spren. In Oathbringer Pattern talks about dead things.

"Humans don't care about the dead. You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skin of corpses. Corpses are things to you."

Wouldn't that make stick dead? Or if a part of a living breaks off would that make a new spren? Then it would being up the question if 2 or more things are put together would the spren combine into 1 spren? Note I haven't read more then what is in the Stormlight Archive. 

It's about how people view the object I believe, since this is directly communing with the cognitive aspect of the stick. Certain people will probably correct me here, but that is my answer.

[Stormgate he/him]

I think Pattern is talking about inconsistencies. Humans are very protective and tend to avoid human corpses, but the dead parts of everything else seem to be fair game. To Pattern, everything is alive, it's just a lot of things are stupid. 

Pattern is a human scholar, that is, a scholar who studies humans. And he's very intrigued here by the lie that people avoid corpses, but surround ourselves with them. 

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Forums

2 hours ago, WakeUpWolfgang said:

In Words of Radiance, Stick is talking through Pattern making the stick alive with a spren. In Oathbringer Pattern talks about dead things.

"Humans don't care about the dead. You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skin of corpses. Corpses are things to you."

Wouldn't that make stick dead? Or if a part of a living breaks off would that make a new spren? Then it would being up the question if 2 or more things are put together would the spren combine into 1 spren? Note I haven't read more then what is in the Stormlight Archive. 

I think you are confusing spren and Spren.

On Roshar, spren is one of those terms that can be used as a catch-all term (like Wine is not really what we would consider wine, and Chicken being a term for any bird) - and when used in that context, it means any Cognitive Identity. For example:

1. Higher Spren (Sapiant) - such as Honorspren
2. Spren (Sentient) - such as Flame Spren or Wind Spren
3. Beads (the Cognitive Identity of a physical object)

These are all referred to as spren, but only the first two are "alive." Which is why Shallan could see adn "touch" Stick's bead - and also why Pattern had to translate for her (mostly because she was unpracticed - she had also communicated with the Goblet in WoK and the Wind's Pleasure - but she was tired, pained and unpracticed so Pattern interceded).

Also, keep in mind that the concept of "dead" for Cognitive Entities is also wibbly-wobbly. They repeatedly call deadeye Shardblades "corpses" but Adolin showed hat Maya isn't "dead" by the human conception. So, stick might be a "corpse" in the sense that it is a no-longer-alive phycial world piece of a growing plant. Being able to communicate with the cognitive identity of the Stick's bead does not make it "alive" in the physical realm. Stick likely did not have an independant CI "bead" until a person viewed it as a "stick" (instead of a part of it's former plant, like a branch) or it had been separated from its origin long enough to view itself as separate. But in Shadesmar you would not see a "spren" of Stick the same way they, for example, encountered Anticipationspren outside of the Rii oracle (as a discrete mobile lesser spren in shadesmar, rather than a bead representing a physical object's "spren" - a.k.a. Cognitive identity). 

 

Does that help?

 

[WakeUpWolfgang]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the Forums

I think you are confusing spren and Spren.

On Roshar, spren is one of those terms that can be used as a catch-all term (like Wine is not really what we would consider wine, and Chicken being a term for any bird) - and when used in that context, it means any Cognitive Identity. For example:

1. Higher Spren (Sapiant) - such as Honorspren
2. Spren (Sentient) - such as Flame Spren or Wind Spren
3. Beads (the Cognitive Identity of a physical object)

These are all referred to as spren, but only the first two are "alive." Which is why Shallan could see adn "touch" Stick's bead - and also why Pattern had to translate for her (mostly because she was unpracticed - she had also communicated with the Goblet in WoK and the Wind's Pleasure - but she was tired, pained and unpracticed so Pattern interceded).

Also, keep in mind that the concept of "dead" for Cognitive Entities is also wibbly-wobbly. They repeatedly call deadeye Shardblades "corpses" but Adolin showed hat Maya isn't "dead" by the human conception. So, stick might be a "corpse" in the sense that it is a no-longer-alive phycial world piece of a growing plant. Being able to communicate with the cognitive identity of the Stick's bead does not make it "alive" in the physical realm. Stick likely did not have an independant CI "bead" until a person viewed it as a "stick" (instead of a part of it's former plant, like a branch) or it had been separated from its origin long enough to view itself as separate. But in Shadesmar you would not see a "spren" of Stick the same way they, for example, encountered Anticipationspren outside of the Rii oracle (as a discrete mobile lesser spren in shadesmar, rather than a bead representing a physical object's "spren" - a.k.a. Cognitive identity). 

 

Does that help?

 

Yes. That did help. Thank you

Edited September 28, 2023 by WakeUpWolfgang

[alder24]

10 hours ago, WakeUpWolfgang said:

In Words of Radiance, Stick is talking through Pattern making the stick alive with a spren. In Oathbringer Pattern talks about dead things.

"Humans don't care about the dead. You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skin of corpses. Corpses are things to you."

Wouldn't that make stick dead? Or if a part of a living breaks off would that make a new spren? Then it would being up the question if 2 or more things are put together would the spren combine into 1 spren? Note I haven't read more then what is in the Stormlight Archive. 

Everything in Cosmere exists and has representation in all 3 Realms - the body in the Physical Realm, the mind in the Cognitive Realm (Shadesmar), and the spirit web in the Spiritual Realm. On Roshar many call this mind a spren, even if it's not a real Spren, living entity, like Pattern or Syl. Everything, even a stick exists in all 3 Realms and "thinks" a little bit. This thinking for objects is shaped by how people perceive them - an object doesn't really think for itself, it merely reflects thoughts of people about it. Therefore a stick will think he is a stick, which is self explanatory, while a ship will think about serving his sailors, because people think more about a ship than a stick. They are not alive however, and never were, they aren't a spren, beads are just representations of their minds. Pattern was simply translating thoughts of the objects to Shallan, he wasn't making it alive. WoR ch 7:

Quote

The Wind’s Pleasure. A ship that had been cared for, loved. It had carried its passengers well for years and years, owned by Tozbek and his father before him. An old ship, but not ancient, still reliable. A proud ship. It manifested here as a sphere.
It could actually think. The ship could think. Or . . . well, it reflected the thoughts of the people who served on it, knew it, thought about it
“I need you to change,” Shallan whispered to it, cradling the bead in her hands. It was too heavy for its size, as if the entire weight of the ship had been compressed to this singular bead.
“No,” the reply came, though it was Pattern who spoke. “No, I cannot. I must serve. I am happy.”
Shallan looked to him.
“I will intercede,” Pattern repeated. “. . . Translate. You are not ready.”