Who spoke to Kaladin? *spoilers*

[Mad_Scientist]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I wasn't certain if I should create a new thread with the exact same topic, and I really want to share my views on this. I think I may know who spoke to Kaladin, and if I am right, it has some really insane cosmere implications.

I think it was Adonalsium itself, or whatever remains of Adonalsium.

Why? Well, consider the words used. "Child of Tanavast. Child of Honor. Child of one long since departed."

When this thread was first created, the importance of "Tanavast" and "Honor" weren't known. Now we know that Honor is the Shard held by the Almighty, and that Tanavast was the original holder of said Shard. And of course, Honor aka the Almighty is dead, and thus is "long since departed." So, it seems that all of the "Child of..." references were actually talking about the same thing.

Which means that whoever spoke to Kaladin knows that "the Almighty" is dead, knows that the Almighty held the Shard Honor, and knows that the name of the original holder of said Shard was a person named Tanavast. And despite referencing Honor three times, the person speaking to Kaladin never called Honor the Almighty.

I think this means it is extremely unlikely that the one who spoke to Kaladin was a Herald. Would they even know of the name Tanavast? And if they did, would they use it? The one Herald's whose thoughts we saw thought of Honor as "the Almighty", and the apparant Herald at the end of the book also used the term "the Almighty." It seems the Heralds did worship Honor and thought of him as a god, and I doubt they would speak to Kaladin about him in the way the Face did.

Whoever spoke to Kaladin used the Almighty's Shard name, his human name, and his status as being dead, but never any of his divine names. I don't think the one who spoke to Kaladin was someone who ever worshiped Honor as a god.

So, who could have it been? Hoid? Unlikely. I don't think Hoid has the power to give visions like that. And if he did, I doubt he would have appeared as the Face did. The one who spoke to Kaladin was described as a face as wide as the sky itself, with eyes full of stars. It's a majestic image. Hold, at least at the time of Way of Kings, seems a rather self-depreciating fellow. He wouldn't appear in such a form.

Plus, if he wanted to talk to Kaladin, he could just... talk to Kaladin.

So who is left? Well, Shards are a possibility. I doubt the person who spoke to Kaladin was Honor itself, though. Just look at how different Kaladin's and Dalinar's visions were. The face Kaladin saw smiled in its first appearance. Honor was extremely sorrowful in the one vision of Dalinar's where he showed emotion. The face who spoke to Kaladin seemed very sure of itself and implied it had knowledge of Kaladin's nature as a child of Honor: it knew who it was speaking to. Honor wasn't even sure how Dalinar was able to see his "logbook," of even if Dalanir was able to see it. The entire tone of Kaladin's and Dalinar's visions are completely different.

So if not Honor, maybe Odium? Ha, like it would be Odium. The face who spoke to Kaladin seemed to be warning him about Odium. I find it extremely unlikely that it was Odium itself.

Cultivation? Maybe, though it would seem strange to me for it to speaking to Kaladin, who is far in the east, away from Shinovar. Plus the face who spoke to Kaladin didn't really strike me as a she. But Cultivation is a definite possibility, though to me it just doesn't seem quite right.

Think again of how the face was described. One as vast as the sky itself, with stars for its eyes. Now, think of how Adonalsium was described in Hero of Ages.

"I sense shards of something from long ago, a fractured presence, something spanning the void."

To me, the "something spanning the void" evokes the same type of feeling as the face Kaladin saw.

And now we get to what I consider to be by far the biggest evidence that the Face was Adonalsium: Hoid's actions. Specifically, the fact that Hoid mentions Adonalsium to Dalinar.

Hoid's actions clearly show that he was checking to see if Dalinar recognized the name. But the question is: why? Why would Hoid think there would be even the slightest possibility that Dalinar would know that name?

The answer seems clear to me: because Dalinar was having visions during Highstorms. I think Hoid must have known that whatever remains of Adonalsium's presence was particularly strong in Roshar at that time, known that it may have been trying to communicate with someone. He thought that person maybe was Dalinar, that Dalinar might be getting visions from Adonalsium, and decided to see if Dalinar recognized the name.

Hoid was right about Adonalsium giving someone visions, he was just wrong about who was receiving them.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Mad_Scientist

[Squallor]

And now we get to what I consider to be by far the biggest evidence that the Face was Adonalsium: Hoid's actions. Specifically, the fact that Hoid mentions Adonalsium to Dalinar.

Hoid's actions clearly show that he was checking to see if Dalinar recognized the name. But the question is: why? Why would Hoid think there would be even the slightest possibility that Dalinar would know that name?

The answer seems clear to me: because Dalinar was having visions during Highstorms. I think Hoid must have known that whatever remains of Adonalsium's presence was particularly strong in Roshar at that time, known that it may have been trying to communicate with someone. He thought that person maybe was Dalinar, that Dalinar might be getting visions from Adonalsium, and decided to see if Dalinar recognized the name.

Hoid was right about Adonalsium giving someone visions, he was just wrong about who was receiving them.

At first I was just going to say that there was just as much evidence for it being Cultivation as the face as Adonalsium, however, you're Hoid point completely changes the argument. I had forgotten that Hoid brings this up to Dalinar, and if Hoid knows Adonalsium is poking his head in somewhere (I know, shameless pun), it would be a VERY Brandon thing to do to have him looking in the wrong place. It seems to be habit of his.

The only problem I have with this theory is the concept of Adonalsium being shattered, and how he could maintain this level of influence. I would think that each Shard is representative of one of each fundamental aspect of life, covering all three realms. If this is Adonalsium, that implies that there is a distinct Cognitive aspect that survived, and never fell into Shard form.

However, now that I write this, I guess the Cognitive aspect would likely be the only part that survived. If each of the current Shard holders was once their own person, then they would each have their own distinct identity, leaving Adonalsium's untouched. Interesting.

I still am in the air... we don't know enough about the nature of Shards or the Shattering to make me convinced it is.

[SOM1else]

Could it be the Almighty talking to Kaladin the same way that Aona talks to Raoden in the shardpool during Elantris?

[Mad_Scientist]

Could it be the Almighty talking to Kaladin the same way that Aona talks to Raoden in the shardpool during Elantris?

I did consider that, but the Almighty/Honor is talking to Dalinar, and the style and tone of his visions and Kaladin's visions are completely different. I don't think they're coming from the same place. Also, don't know if the Almighty would refer to himself in the third person like that.

I still am in the air... we don't know enough about the nature of Shards or the Shattering to make me convinced it is.

Yah, at the moment we don't even know for sure what Adonalsium even is, or if it ever had a mind.

That said, the fact that Hoid seemed to be checking to see if Dalinar knew that name makes me strongly suspect that something related to Adonalsium must be going on, something important, even if Adonalsium itself isn't granting visions.

[Squallor]

Did Brandon ever say for sure whether or not another Shard could be on Roshar? I know we have explicitly stated that there are 3 Shards that are "native" to the planet, but I don't remember if the question has been asked if some other Shard could be taking some involvement - Sazed or otherwise.

I really don't think the vision is within in the realm of "mortal" powers (I am using the term to identify people who are more or less normal humans, this includes Hoid, Elantrians, Returned, and Heralds), but would not be surprised if it is some character or being that we have not been otherwise introduced to.

Also as a side note, I am personally of the mind that Adonalsium is not really a being so much as a fundamental force that defined creation. In going with Brandon's linguistics patterns (though primarily Mistborn at this point really), the -ium suffix tends to be the power source of something. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the Shattering of Adonalsium was the result of a group of people/scientists trying access this force, and in doing so, they accidentally unmade creation. In order to fix it, they had to take on the power themselves to re-create the Cosmere.

Ok, that's enough of me going off-topic.

[Mad_Scientist]

Did Brandon ever say for sure whether or not another Shard could be on Roshar? I know we have explicitly stated that there are 3 Shards that are "native" to the planet, but I don't remember if the question has been asked if some other Shard could be taking some involvement - Sazed or otherwise.

Here's exactly what was said:

13. How many Shards have existed on Roshar?

ANSWER: Three

I'm fairly certainly that, based on the way the question was phrased, there are only 3 Shards that have ever been on Roshar at any point. Those Shards are seemingly Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. If another Shard was trying to affect things, then it would have to somehow be giving Kaladin visions without actually going to Roshar, and I'm honestly not sure another Shard could do that. The power of a Shard is the Shard in a sense, so if a Shard was somehow using its power to affect Roshar, that Shard would be on Roshar.

Now, saying this, I realize that we've never had 100% confirmation that Odium is on of the three Shards on Roshar. We know Odium killed Honor, which strongly implies that Odium has been there, but I suppose there's always the chance that for some reason Honor left Roshar, and it was then that he was killed by Odium (perhaps making it back to Roshar in his dying gasps... or whatever a Shard would have).

If that was the case, then there would be 4 Shards involved in the story: Honor, Cultivation, and Unknown-Roshar-Shard, with Odium on the way to Roshar.

[happyman]

I'm with Squallor. "Unknown third party" seems to be the most likely candidate for something like this. Brandon has strongly suggested that there is more to the back-story than Hoid and Adonalsium, and it seems to me that picking one of the other is a bit premature at this point.

[pmj812]

I think it's the big, crazy sea spren from the Axies the Collector interlude.

[Asha'man Logain]

Has anyone here read Aether of Night? There's a similarity. I may be seeing things though. I do not know the answer to this question.

No. Where can i get a copy of this or any other non-published works? or pretty much anything Brandon has written?

[Squallor]

No. Where can i get a copy of this or any other non-published works? or pretty much anything Brandon has written?

If I am not mistaken, it's been harder to get unpublished works recently. I believe that it used to be that all you had to do was send an email to Brandon through his website, and him or Peter would send you some of his unfinished stuff if you asked nicely. Now, I think it's not so common since his popularity increase, and I am sure he doesn't want spoiler floating around on the internet.

I agree though, I always hear references to what happened in Aether on this forum and TWG, and am DYING to read that book. I guess I'll just be patient until he actually publishes it, and deal with the frustration of all the teasing Peter, Chaos, and co. do on the forums just to make us out-of-the-loop folks feel like we are missing a great big secret of the Cosmere. <grumble>

[Mad_Scientist]

If I am not mistaken, it's been harder to get unpublished works recently. I believe that it used to be that all you had to do was send an email to Brandon through his website, and him or Peter would send you some of his unfinished stuff if you asked nicely. Now, I think it's not so common since his popularity increase, and I am sure he doesn't want spoiler floating around on the internet.

I agree though, I always hear references to what happened in Aether on this forum and TWG, and am DYING to read that book. I guess I'll just be patient until he actually publishes it, and deal with the frustration of all the teasing Peter, Chaos, and co. do on the forums just to make us out-of-the-loop folks feel like we are missing a great big secret of the Cosmere. <grumble>

I think Brandon will still give out some of his unpublished works, but Liar of Partinal and Dragonsteel, possibly a few others, are off-limits now because they'd reveal too many spoilers about the cosmere. Not sure how much spoiler potential Aether of Night has.

Regardless, I don't think the chances of Aether of Night being published are very good though, at least not in anything close to its current form. The magic system of the book got ripped out and used for Liar of Partinal, for one thing. Not sure how ingrained in the story and world of Aether that magic is, but considering it's what gave the book its name, I imagine it was fairly important.

Anyways, I figure it's probably not the best idea to try and scour unpublished books for cosmere clues anyways, as nothing in unpublished works is final, and so in some cases it could actually be deceptive.

Or maybe that's just what my mind tells me to lesson the pain of the fact that I haven't read any of his unpublished works.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Mad_Scientist

[Chaos]

I think Brandon will still give out some of his unpublished works, but Liar of Partinal and Dragonsteel, possibly a few others, are off-limits now because they'd reveal too many spoilers about the cosmere. Not sure how much spoiler potential Aether of Night has.

Regardless, I don't think the chances of Aether of Night being published are very good though, at least not in anything close to its current form. The magic system of the book got ripped out and used for Liar of Partinal, for one thing. Not sure how ingrained in the story and world of Aether that magic is, but considering it's what gave the book its name, I imagine it was fairly important.

Anyways, I figure it's probably not the best idea to try and scour unpublished books for cosmere clues anyways, as nothing in unpublished works is final, and so in some cases it could actually be deceptive.

Or maybe that's just what my mind tells me to lesson the pain of the fact that I haven't read any of his unpublished works.

Aether was cannibalized into Liar, really? I knew it was cannibalized into something but I didn't think it was Liar...

You can (probably) get Dragonsteel from the BYU library, or Inter-Library Loan it from them. It's always in high demand, however.

I am certain you won't be able to get Liar of Partinel, however, in any way, except for the sample chapters that are on Brandon's site, if you look closely. Apparently a draft was finished, but Brandon was attempting discovery writing and it didn't work at all. He said on Writing Excuses it was a bad, uneven draft that he had to pull from his writing group. He had to drop it for the Wheel of Time, so he never got to revise it. So, Josh and Mi'chelle asked for Liar, and Brandon denied them. That's probably for the better; if Brandon said it was really bad, best to trust him.

There's a reason why these books aren't published, guys. Amazing, they are not. Not saying which of them that I've read, but seriously...

I agree though, I always hear references to what happened in Aether on this forum and TWG, and am DYING to read that book. I guess I'll just be patient until he actually publishes it, and deal with the frustration of all the teasing Peter, Chaos, and co. do on the forums just to make us out-of-the-loop folks feel like we are missing a great big secret of the Cosmere. <grumble>

I do try not to tease. It's not fun for any of the members, and I'd get frustrated if I were you, too.

There aren't many revelations, though, trust me. There isn't a massive twist that will change everything. And if it makes you feel better, I haven't read Aether either.

[Mad_Scientist]

Aether was cannibalized into Liar, really? I knew it was cannibalized into something but I didn't think it was Liar...

Well, the sample chapters of Liar you mentioned reveal a bit about a magic system that involves things called "Aethers." I doubt it's a coincidence. I can't remember where the blog post that mentioned Aether being cannabalized is, but as I said I'm sure the use of the term Aether in Liar of Partinal isn't a coincidence.

[mycoltbug]

I totally agree with Chaos here. If I've come off sounding arrogant or what not for having read a few of them I apologize but I do second what he says here. They are fun to read for me to see how he progresses from first drafts to the finalized product. He has vastly improved his writing from his first books to where he is at now. Like Chaos and others have said. It's hard to read them because until everything is set in stone you never know what or who could be cut. Dragonsteel is a great example. He took a setting that was very simple and expounded it to make it much better.

I'll put a link to the chapters that Chaos is referencing.Found on the time wasters guide. If he or anyone else thinks we shouldn't link it they can take it down Liar Sample Chapters

[Squallor]

First off, I'd like to apologize if I sound accusing of anyone mentioning unpublished books. I know no one has ever tried to dangle little bits of cosmere info just to tease people. I am also aware that there are no big secrets in those books except maybe some in Dragonsteel/Liar, so I am not expecting much. I only meant my earlier comment in a joking manor. (well, half joking... I still want to read Aether)

But on a lighter note:

Wait a second... subtle hint possibly lurking here. Mad Scientist - mentioned that Aether of night magic is what is now used in Liar (light weaving I believe)? and we know at least one magic system in Liar is Hoid's story telling dust thingy, yes?

Add this together that the face has something to do with a spoiler from Aether, then maybe the face is much larger scale of some of Hoid's magical abilities. I pretty sure Brandon has hinted that Hoid is his most BAMF character he has written about, so unless he has other magics we are as of yet unaware of (which I concede is VERY likely), this falls exactly in line with something Hoid is capable of.

Not saying its damning evidence by any means, but this might lead some credence to Hoid being the face. I know he could have just spoken with Kaladin (as he did later), but maybe he wanted to give him some divine inspiration? This just put Hoid back up as a possible contender for me.

[Mad_Scientist]

Wait a second... subtle hint possibly lurking here. Mad Scientist - mentioned that Aether of night magic is what is now used in Liar (light weaving I believe)? and we know at least one magic system in Liar is Hoid's story telling dust thingy, yes?

Actually, the Aethers don't seem to have anything to do with lightweaving. Sorry to disappoint you. But the Aethers are these slivers of... something that people embed in their bodies, and that are actually alive. You never really get a clear indication of how they work in the handful of chapters that can be found on Brandon's site.

But Midius/Hoid doesn't seem to have an Aether inside him, and people treat what he does (lightweaving) as something totally different and unrelated to Aethers.

[Squallor]

Actually, the Aethers don't seem to have anything to do with lightweaving. Sorry to disappoint you. But the Aethers are these slivers of... something that people embed in their bodies, and that are actually alive. You never really get a clear indication of how they work in the handful of chapters that can be found on Brandon's site.

But Midius/Hoid doesn't seem to have an Aether inside him, and people treat what he does (lightweaving) as something totally different and unrelated to Aethers.

Forgot about those. I haven't read the Liar chapters in quite awhile. I just assumed the Aethers were part of lightweaving since that was the only magic we see much of in those chapters. Oh well, I guess I'll hang out in my unknwon third party faction.

[Chaos]

I totally agree with Chaos here. If I've come off sounding arrogant or what not for having read a few of them I apologize but I do second what he says here. They are fun to read for me to see how he progresses from first drafts to the finalized product. He has vastly improved his writing from his first books to where he is at now. Like Chaos and others have said. It's hard to read them because until everything is set in stone you never know what or who could be cut. Dragonsteel is a great example. He took a setting that was very simple and expounded it to make it much better.

I'll put a link to the chapters that Chaos is referencing.Found on the time wasters guide. If he or anyone else thinks we shouldn't link it they can take it down Liar Sample Chapters

Nah, keep it posted. It's publicly available, which means we can discuss it.

And that's interesting. I had thought there was a prologue, but obviously there is not.

First off, I'd like to apologize if I sound accusing of anyone mentioning unpublished books. I know no one has ever tried to dangle little bits of cosmere info just to tease people. I am also aware that there are no big secrets in those books except maybe some in Dragonsteel/Liar, so I am not expecting much. I only meant my earlier comment in a joking manor. (well, half joking... I still want to read Aether)

Oh good. I didn't think you were accusatory, but I do try to not annoy people, that's all

That said, I can't at all blame you for wanting to read the stuff regardless

Speaking of shared magic systems, Brandon did say in the 17S interview with him that Roshar and Yolen actually share a magic system.

[mycoltbug]

Nah, keep it posted. It's publicly available, which means we can discuss it.

And that's interesting. I had thought there was a prologue, but obviously there is not.

I didn't think there was the prologue. There was just the chapters where he did a gender reversal and such. But no prologue that I ever saw that went public.

[Chaos]

I didn't think there was the prologue. There was just the chapters where he did a gender reversal and such. But no prologue that I ever saw that went public.

No, you're right. I guess I just had the idea in my mind that Hoid died in a prologue, but that's clear that it happens in chapter one.

But, uh, we are getting rather off topic. We should discuss the Liar sample chapters in a thread in General Theories.

(However, we should not discuss Aether at the moment)

[Zas678]

Add this together that the face has something to do with a spoiler from Aether, then maybe the face is much larger scale of some of Hoid's magical abilities. I pretty sure Brandon has hinted that Hoid is his most BAMF character he has written about, so unless he has other magics we are as of yet unaware of (which I concede is VERY likely), this falls exactly in line with something Hoid is capable of.

Not saying its damning evidence by any means, but this might lead some credence to Hoid being the face. I know he could have just spoken with Kaladin (as he did later), but maybe he wanted to give him some divine inspiration? This just put Hoid back up as a possible contender for me.

Well Hoid is "adept at manipulating the Shadesmar", which he seems to use to get from place to place. Maybe he's using it again? But I agree with the fact that Hoid would simply talk with Kaladin, and wouldn't put on the pretense of granduer.

I do think that the old opinions still hold some merit. I think it's very possible that this is Jezrien, the Stormfather, who has been overwhelmed by all/part of Honor that he holds.

You know, I've always thought that perhaps there was a third cognitive presence that points out Elantris=Rao to Raoden before he encounters the leftovers of Aona.

And whoever answers Sazed's prayer, because Vin doesn't even realize he needs help when she sends Elend there.

[Kaladin]

I don't think the other nine heralds are dead. They left, but there's no indication that they died permanently.

I hope that all, or at least all but one of the nine, are dead. Narratively it's a much stronger tale if the protagonists are striving to replace such legendary heroes rather than simply find them.

I hope that heralds are only "immortal" as long as they keep the Oathpact, that the Nine that gave up lived normal mortal lives, died, and avoided get sent to a torture filled afterlife.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Kaladin

[CrazyRioter]

well we know at least one of them is still around, as Brandon has said we get viewpoints from Taln and one other Herald (who we are told has already had a cameo in WoK although he wouldn't give specifics, common theory is Baxil's mistress from the Interludes).

And even if they are all still around, they quit, and are kind of crazy, not sure how much use they'd be even if they do get tracked down.

[Eri]

I hope that all, or at least all but one of the nine, are dead.

I hope they're just depowered, crazy and/or evil. Dead would be boring.

Narratively it's a much stronger tale if the protagonists are striving to replace such legendary heroes rather than simply find them.

I agree here.However finding them, then realising they're not heroes anymore THEN replacing them is probably the best option here. ;-)

[Cheese Ninja]

I think that Jezrien was the one speaking to Kaladin. For some reason I think ALL the Heralds are still alive, not just Shalash and Taln. I expect that there's one leading the Parshendi as well.

I imagine the Taln chapters of going a bit like this:

http://www.adweek.com/video/espncom-fridge-falconer-123545