Koloss-Blooded question

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I know I have asked something similar to this but I wanted to hear what folks thoughts are on this one. 

Given that Koloss-Blooded are already such imposing physical beings, I am curious how that translates for ones with feruchemical powers.  Specifically pewter. 

I know that tapping large amounts of pewter can cause a person to bulk out and at the top end, risk losing mobility.  I also know that when they store they lose some of their physique and muscular builds as well. 

But with Koloss-blooded who are already stronger and more muscular do you think that they would lose and gain size at a different rate from your typical human?  

Does the muscle grow at a rate based on your mass to strength ratio?  If Koloss-Blooded are simply stronger per lb of muscle to start with, would they gain more strength per lb of muscle put on later?  Minimizing the negative mobility effects at larger tapped amounts of strength?  

Also. Do you think they could store more than a human before looking and feeling weaker?  

Also do you think feruchemy in general is based on specific numbers or do you believe feruchemical storage is all % based? (You don't store 100lbs but you store 50% of your weight. Which leads me to ask if you lose 50 lbs minus feruchemy would tap the 50lbs you stored before or would you tap the 50% of your current weight? ) 

[Trusk'our]

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But with Koloss-blooded who are already stronger and more muscular do you think that they would lose and gain size at a different rate from your typical human?  

I don't think so; Feruchemical pewter works by making your muscles bigger. If the muslces of the Koloss-blooded are built to have more power inside each pound of muscle they have compared to a human, a Koloss-blooded Brute would be more effective when tapping in terms of raw strength for the amount of attribute tapped.

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Also. Do you think they could store more than a human before looking and feeling weaker?  

Most likely. It mostly depends on why they're stronger, but I believe it has to do with their genetics more than magic. Basically, they have more muscle and that muscle is a bit stronger than a normal human's, so they'd have an easier time storing muscle mass.

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Also do you think feruchemy in general is based on specific numbers or do you believe feruchemical storage is all % based? (You don't store 100lbs but you store 50% of your weight. Which leads me to ask if you lose 50 lbs minus feruchemy would tap the 50lbs you stored before or would you tap the 50% of your current weight? ) 

Specific numbers. Percentages are used for ease of finding out what the Feruchemist is actually storing compared to what they normally have.

Think of it this way. A Feruchemist who can lift 100 lbs. stores 50% of their strength, which equals 50 Invested units. A second Feruchemist who can life 200 lbs. stores 50% of their strength and stores 100 Invested units.

Does that explain it?

Also, as for storing, I don't think that the Koloss-blood would be able to store more Investiture than a human with the same bulk. They'd just get more use out of the attribute they tapped because the muscle mass that they get is able to exert more force.

EDIT: yay! 1,500th post! 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

24 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think so; Feruchemical pewter works by making your muscles bigger. If the muslces of the Koloss-blooded are built to have more power inside each pound of muscle they have compared to a human, a Koloss-blooded Brute would be more effective when tapping in terms of raw strength for the amount of attribute tapped.

Most likely. It mostly depends on why they're stronger, but I believe it has to do with their genetics more than magic. Basically, they have more muscle and that muscle is a bit stronger than a normal human's, so they'd have an easier time storing muscle mass.

Specific numbers. Percentages are used for ease of finding out what the Feruchemist is actually storing compared to what they normally have.

Think of it this way. A Feruchemist who can lift 100 lbs. stores 50% of their strength, which equals 50 Invested units. A second Feruchemist who can life 200 lbs. stores 50% of their strength and stores 100 Invested units.

Does that explain it?

Also, as for storing, I don't think that the Koloss-blood would be able to store more Investiture than a human with the same bulk. They'd just get more use out of the attribute they tapped because the muscle mass that they get is able to exert more force.

EDIT: yay! 1,500th post! 

Nice on the 1500th.  

What do you think about A-pewter on a Koloss-blooded? 

I felt like Ham talked about it not doubling or tripling the users strength but rather brought them closer to being doubled the strength of a normal person. (Maybe mixing some WOB that said it doubles and triples when flared). 

Do you think this holds true for a Koloss-Blooded?  If a KB who is athletic like Ham were to spar with Vin both being on pewter do you think the pewter would bring them closer together or do you think the KB would maintain a proportional advantage against Vin?  

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Nice on the 1500th.  

Thanks 

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What do you think about A-pewter on a Koloss-blooded? 

I felt like Ham talked about it not doubling or tripling the users strength but rather brought them closer to being doubled the strength of a normal person. (Maybe mixing some WOB that said it doubles and triples when flared). 

Do you think this holds true for a Koloss-Blooded?  If a KB who is athletic like Ham were to spar with Vin both being on pewter do you think the pewter would bring them closer together or do you think the KB would maintain a proportional advantage against Vin?  

The KB (good idea for an abbreviation, btw) should have a slightly higher advantage than Ham would. Hammond is an athletic human who also is a Pewterarm. An athletic KB would almost certainly have a higher base strength, making them proportionately stronger compared to other Pewterarms.

Specifically against Vin, yes, the KB would have an advantage in physical strength- she's a bit stronger than the average Mistborn of her time (likely due to her taking in small amounts of the Mists when she was a child) but Vin did almost die when she was getting bear-hugged by a Pewterarm assassin in tWoA, so in raw muscle strength she'd be weaker than even a non-KB (but presumably athletic) Pewterarm. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

13 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Specifically against Vin, yes, the KB would have an advantage in physical strength- she's a bit stronger than the average Mistborn of her time (likely due to her taking in small amounts of the Mists when she was a child) but Vin did almost die when she was getting bear-hugged by a Pewterarm assassin in tWoA, so in raw muscle strength she'd be weaker than even a non-KB (but presumably athletic) Pewterarm. 

Don't forget that the SquareCube law applies - so it depends on what metric of strength is being measured. For example, when sparring with Ham in WoA Vin was able to make the pewter jumps that others could not duplicate because her strength-to-mass ratio was higher even if her raw-strength was lower.

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Don't forget that the SquareCube law applies - so it depends on what metric of strength is being measured. For example, when sparring with Ham in WoA Vin was able to make the pewter jumps that others could not duplicate because her strength-to-mass ratio was higher even if her raw-strength was lower.

Absolutely. Still, in terms of raw strength (in terms of muscle power), Vin was at a disadvantage. She just made up for it by being far more skilled or more clever.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Don't forget that the SquareCube law applies - so it depends on what metric of strength is being measured. For example, when sparring with Ham in WoA Vin was able to make the pewter jumps that others could not duplicate because her strength-to-mass ratio was higher even if her raw-strength was lower.

What are you thoughts on this specifically? Do you think a KB pewter arm is sort of losing out on a bunch of the benefits because they are KB specifically?  KB are going to be a lot larger than any average human but they also have a genetic (weaker) augmented strength compared to a normal human. I kind of want to reread all of the Tarson scenes.  

I know he was described as healing way faster and it needing a head shot to kill him. Did he ever vault around the rooms?  

I really figured a KB would be stronger per their weight than a normal human but I also picture them as being far heavier so maybe not so much?  

 

[Treamayne]

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Don't forget that the SquareCube law applies - so it depends on what metric of strength is being measured. For example, when sparring with Ham in WoA Vin was able to make the pewter jumps that others could not duplicate because her strength-to-mass ratio was higher even if her raw-strength was lower.

What are you thoughts on this specifically? Do you think a KB pewter arm is sort of losing out on a bunch of the benefits because they are KB specifically?  KB are going to be a lot larger than any average human but they also have a genetic (weaker) augmented strength compared to a normal human. I kind of want to reread all of the Tarson scenes.  

I know he was described as healing way faster and it needing a head shot to kill him. Did he ever vault around the rooms?  

I really figured a KB would be stronger per their weight than a normal human but I also picture them as being far heavier so maybe not so much? 

Sorry I wasn't clear. Strength can be measured in more than one way. The two that we have specifically seen applied in Mistborn books are raw strength and S:M ratios. For example, the reason why Ants (and other insects) can easily lift many times their own weight is due, at least in part*, to SquareCube applications (which also figures strongly on other Cosmere worlds) so:

1. Raw: A KB would have a clear advantage, due to both a higher baseline, but also likely a higher proportionate increase
2. Ratio: The KB would have a clear disadvantage, so any measure of strength as it relates to body weight (jumping, climbing, hanging-by-grip-strength) would fall far short of the capability of a strong-but-lighter individual. In the referenced example, Vin easily jumped well over Hammond's head using pewter only because she was not only "strong for her size" but also "small/light for her strength." Even without any allomantic enhancement Vin was already strong and nimble fo a 100lb female - when you double or triple that strength there are feats that she can perform that would be impossible for a significantly larger and heaver person, no matter their advantage in raw strength.

Does that help clarify?

*Note: The other part being, of course, an exoskeleton (which negates many problems with ligaments and tendons that can cause an effective ceiling on raw power, no matter the size or efficacy of the muscles)

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Treamayne
Note

[JustQuestin2004]

Huh, funnily enough I was wondering a similar question about a Pewter Ferring with Iron Spikes and just how much more strength they could store.

This isn't quite what I was looking for but it's helpful nontheless. 

Oh yeah

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I know he was described as healing way faster and it needing a head shot to kill him. Did he ever vault around the rooms?  

KB heal a bit faster than a normal person, but Tarson specifically was a Pewter Savant. So with those two factors in combination mean he could heal a broken arm in a relatively short period of time.

Plus being a Pewter Savant probably means that he gained more strength than a normal Thug, maybe instead of a 2x boost when Burning and 3x when Flaring, it would be more like 3x when Burning and 4x when Flaring?  I dunno I kind of wish we got a little more of Tarson so we would know.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Sorry I wasn't clear. Strength can be measured in more than one way. The two that we have specifically seen applied in Mistborn books are raw strength and S:M ratios. For example, the reason why Ants (and other insects) can easily lift many times their own weight is due, at least in part*, to SquareCube applications (which also figures strongly on other Cosmere worlds) so:

1. Raw: A KB would have a clear advantage, due to both a higher baseline, but also likely a higher proportionate increase
2. Ratio: The KB would have a clear disadvantage, so any measure of strength as it relates to body weight (jumping, climbing, hanging-by-grip-strength) would fall far short of the capability of a strong-but-lighter individual. In the referenced example, Vin easily jumped well over Hammond's head using pewter only because she was not only "strong for her size" but also "small/light for her strength." Even without any allomantic enhancement Vin was already strong and nimble fo a 100lb female - when you double or triple that strength there are feats that she can perform that would be impossible for a significantly larger and heaver person, no matter their advantage in raw strength.

Does that help clarify?

*Note: The other part being, of course, an exoskeleton (which negates many problems with ligaments and tendons that can cause an effective ceiling on raw power, no matter the size or efficacy of the muscles)

 

So F-iron and A-pewter on a frame close to that of a KB like Tarson could have shown him vaulting some pretty massive distances. 

I really wish I could understand the whole conservation of momentum thing better for this.  If a KB weighed in at 400lbs and had a vertical jump of some 5 feet on pewter... which scenario would work better for them if you add on F iron?  

They store down to 100lbs and then jump?  

They start to jump at normal weight and immediately start storing down to 100lbs as they leave the ground. 

They tap weight and make themselves 800lbs and then jump storing down to 100lbs?  

perhaps with conservation of momentum any amount of weight where they could get airborne and then storing down quickly would allow them a better jump relative to how much they weighed when they first jump?  

53 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Huh, funnily enough I was wondering a similar question about a Pewter Ferring with Iron Spikes and just how much more strength they could store.

This isn't quite what I was looking for but it's helpful nontheless. 

Oh yeah

KB heal a bit faster than a normal person, but Tarson specifically was a Pewter Savant. So with those two factors in combination mean he could heal a broken arm in a relatively short period of time.

Plus being a Pewter Savant probably means that he gained more strength than a normal Thug, maybe instead of a 2x boost when Burning and 3x when Flaring, it would be more like 3x when Burning and 4x when Flaring?  I dunno I kind of wish we got a little more of Tarson so we would know.

Yeah Tarson was a cool character.  I really wish we could see a KB as a protagonist. 

[Trusk'our]

Take a look at this picture drawn by Inkthinker:

 

That is a very muscular individual; lots of extra strength, but also very big. Don't know if the muscles themselves are individually stronger as well though, as that would certainly play a factor in the insect-like abilities.

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So F-iron and A-pewter on a frame close to that of a KB like Tarson could have shown him vaulting some pretty massive distances. 

I really wish I could understand the whole conservation of momentum thing better for this.  If a KB weighed in at 400lbs and had a vertical jump of some 5 feet on pewter... which scenario would work better for them if you add on F iron?  

They store down to 100lbs and then jump?  

They start to jump at normal weight and immediately start storing down to 100lbs as they leave the ground. 

They tap weight and make themselves 800lbs and then jump storing down to 100lbs?  

perhaps with conservation of momentum any amount of weight where they could get airborne and then storing down quickly would allow them a better jump relative to how much they weighed when they first jump?  

Yeah, I think could work. We do see Wax using this mechanism to help him catch up to Bleeder in the climax of SoS, so it's clearly possible to use F-iron to boost your momentum while jumping. Increasing weight more should increase the momentum you get, so a Skimmer KB could perhaps get some height this way.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Trusk'our

[JustQuestin2004]

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, I think could work. We do see Wax using this mechanism to help him catch up to Bleeder in the climax of SoS, so it's clearly possible to use F-iron to boost your momentum while jumping. Increasing weight more should increase the momentum you get, so a Skimmer KB could perhaps get some height this way.

A big blue guy just jumping after you hulk-style would be absolutely terrifying,

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Take a look at this picture drawn by Inkthinker:

 

That is a very muscular individual; lots of extra strength, but also very big. Don't know if the muscles themselves are individually stronger as well though, as that would certainly play a factor in the insect-like abilities.

Yeah, I think could work. We do see Wax using this mechanism to help him catch up to Bleeder in the climax of SoS, so it's clearly possible to use F-iron to boost your momentum.

I LOVE that picture. It is in the MAG Alloy of Law expansion. Characters name is Parnell and he is a "city educated scholar"   so dope.  

[Treamayne]

38 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

They store down to 100lbs and then jump?  

They start to jump at normal weight and immediately start storing down to 100lbs as they leave the ground. 

They tap weight and make themselves 800lbs and then jump storing down to 100lbs?  

The way that Conservation of Momentum interacts with a Steelpush will not be the same as how it interacts with a Pewter Jump. Steel pushes have additional injections of acceleration after the allomancer has left the ground - a Pewter Jump will only ever have the first push. Therefore (without yet crunching numbers until I have more time available), to maximize Velocity Force = Mass(Acceleration) you would need to flare pewter while storing mass to get the strongest "leap" possible (in Strength:Mass ratio - highest possible "acceleration") then increase (tap) mass while moving through the air (higher mass multiplier) to increase airborne velocity.

Wax tends to decrease (store) weight while airborne to make sure that he gets maximum acceleration on each push IIRC.

 

Edit: Stupid brain

Edited September 9, 2023 by Treamayne

[Trusk'our]

25 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

A big blue guy just jumping after you hulk-style would be absolutely terrifying,

Lol, definitely 

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I LOVE that picture. It is in the MAG Alloy of Law expansion. Characters name is Parnell and he is a "city educated scholar"   so dope.  

Had no idea that character had a name. That's pretty cool.

Question; if Parnell is a scholar, is he also a warrior, or does he only do scholarly things (I've never read the Misborn RPG)?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

The way that Conservation of Momentum interacts with a Steelpush will not be the same as how it interacts with a Pewter Jump. Steel pushes have additional injections of acceleration after the allomancer has left the ground - a Pewter Jump will only ever have the first push. Therefore (without yet crunching numbers until I have more time available), to maximize Velocity = Mass(Acceleration) you would need to flare pewter while storing mass to get the strongest "leap" possible (in Strength:Mass ratio - highest possible "acceleration") then increase (tap) mass while moving through the air (higher mass multiplier) to increase airborne velocity.

Wax tends to decrease (store) weight while airborne to make sure that he gets maximum acceleration on each push IIRC.

I thought it would be opposite. Please note the extent of my understanding comes from archery and the arrow weight.  

That said I always assumed that a larger arrow shot out of the bow carried more momentum than the lighter arrow. I also assumed that if mid flight that arrow were to become lighter it would speed up proportionally.  

I don't want to get to deep into my tiny understanding of it but the demonstrations that opened the door for archers to hunt dangerous game in South Africa were demonstrating that the larger heavier arrows shot from the same bow had more momentum and carried on further than the lighter ones.  

If momentum is conserved wouldn't it be better to be as heavy as possible with as much power behind the push and then tap?  I totally get that it works differently than steel.  I always thought it was strange we didn't see Wax rocket off from a super heavy push into the earth and then start storing. 

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Lol, definitely 

Had no idea that character had a name. That's pretty cool.

Question; if Parnell is a scholar, is he also a warrior, or does he only do scholarly things (I've never read the Misborn RPG)?

The MAG allows KB to make as a good tank with no powers basically. KB in the mag are, at baseline, like 1/3 of a pewter misting already. (With the whole bigger and bluer thing).  

Here is a free sampling with all of the characters and their setups used as illustration of creating a team (the MAG uses examples of each rule with these created characters in mind).  

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://d1vzi28wh99zvq.cloudfront.net/pdf_previews/133640-sample.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjzuOS1_p2BAxUJDkQIHYLzC-4QFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2W_WZq0yBDLLa8Fjt0qtBk

[Treamayne]

I'm not a physicist, so I may be entirely wrong. . . but:

51 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If momentum is conserved wouldn't it be better to be as heavy as possible with as much power behind the push and then tap?

Think of it this way. If you arm can generate X amount of force - which will you thow faster - a baseball or a baseball sized kettlebell?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I'm not a physicist, so I may be entirely wrong. . . but:

Think of it this way. If you arm can generate X amount of force - which will you thow faster - a baseball or a baseball sized kettlebell?

But once you are moving and you suddenly become far smaller then doest that move you forward?  Like a bull whip?  

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But once you are moving and you suddenly become far smaller then doest that move you forward?  Like a bull whip?  

That makes sense. I guess, maybe, it comes down to if mass increasing/decreasing would increase the effect of gravity on forward momentum or increase friction on motion (like Sazed's float-fall in WoA at the Conventicle of Seran). Barring outside forces, the basic equation of momentum is P=M(V), which implies that as M decreases, V must incerase fr their product to remain constant.

However, in the case of a Pewter leap, the initial accelleration would seem to be a greater factor since it will determine the initial velocity in determining airborne momentum. 

Which brings us back to how the mass at moment of leap would affect acceleration and the vector of accelleration (a straight up leap would likely be more affected by increased mass tan a running lateral leap, for example). 

[Trusk'our]

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine whoa! Parnell's backstory and motivations are really cool!

It's awesome for a reason I can't fully describe to see such a fleshed-out concept as the Koloss-Blooded. Really liked the facial tattoos and the spike-themed earrings too.

Also, didn't notice this at first, but he's 6'10". . . that's a lot. Taller than Kaladin even. I know that KB are supposed to get taller over time, but that's still a lot.

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

but he's 6'10". . . that's a lot. Taller than Kaladin even

Actually no - Kaladin is 6'4" Rosharan feet = 7 Scadrian feet. Almost though. . . 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

10 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine whoa! Parnell's backstory and motivations are really cool!

It's awesome for a reason I can't fully describe to see such a fleshed-out concept as the Koloss-Blooded. Really liked the facial tattoos and the spike-themed earrings too.

Also, didn't notice this at first, but he's 6'10". . . that's a lot. Taller than Kaladin even. I know that KB are supposed to get taller over time, but that's still a lot.

Yeah his size really doesn't shock me.  Its one of the things I like about it.  I legit think it would be fun to play and picture a Brian Shaw sized adventurer.  

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Actually no - Kaladin is 6'4" Rosharan feet = 7 Scadrian feet. Almost though. . . 

Was there are a WoB that confirmed that ratio? I don't doubt it because everything is bigger and better on Roshar too much investiture.  

I do think that Kaladin, even shorter, would be smaller than Parnell mass and strength wise.  I don't think Kaladin is clocking in at nearly 300lbs of kolossblooded muscle.  

[Trusk'our]

Just now, Treamayne said:

Actually no - Kaladin is 6'4" Rosharan feet = 7 Scadrian feet. Almost though. . . 

I thought he was more like 6'8", but I hopped onto the arcanum and you're right, Kaladin's actually more like 7' in Scadrien terms. 

Still, Parnell's only 22 and KB continue to grow throughout their lives. He easily could get taller than Kal at some point.

That brings up another question; how much taller do KB get after reaching maturity, and how quickly?

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Was there are a WoB that confirmed that ratio?

WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

In the Arcanum Unbounded, it says that a Rosharan foot is longer than cosmere standard. How does that compare to an Earth foot?

Brandon Sanderson

Longer. Kaladin is almost seven feet tall, by our measurements. We've got a height comparison, Shallan is about six feet tall. She thinks she's short. Compared to us, she'd be on the taller end. That's why if you notice people from around the cosmere that show up, they're often mentioned as short. Not Hoid, who's able to use magical means to change how he's perceived, but someone like Felt, and stuff like that.

6 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Still, Parnell's only 22 and KB continue to grow throughout their lives. He easily could get taller than Kal at some point.

Without a doubt, I just didn't want somebody to read this and have the wrong idea about Kaladin. I always just think of Kal as Dresden sized (that's how I remember). 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

WoB:

  Hide contents

Questioner

In the Arcanum Unbounded, it says that a Rosharan foot is longer than cosmere standard. How does that compare to an Earth foot?

Brandon Sanderson

Longer. Kaladin is almost seven feet tall, by our measurements. We've got a height comparison, Shallan is about six feet tall. She thinks she's short. Compared to us, she'd be on the taller end. That's why if you notice people from around the cosmere that show up, they're often mentioned as short. Not Hoid, who's able to use magical means to change how he's perceived, but someone like Felt, and stuff like that.

Without a doubt, I just didn't want somebody to read this and have the wrong idea about Kaladin. I always just think of Kal as Dresden sized (that's how I remember). 

Thanks for this.  So kaladin is almost 7 foot. Which makes it even closer.  Basically Roshar is just a bunch of pro basketball players.  

Wasn't Kaladin said to be taller than others?  I know Rock is like a head taller than Kaladin even but I thought Kaladin was taller for an Alethi? 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I thought he was more like 6'8", but I hopped onto the arcanum and you're right, Kaladin's actually more like 7' in Scadrien terms. 

Still, Parnell's only 22 and KB continue to grow throughout their lives. He easily could get taller than Kal at some point.

That brings up another question; how much taller do KB get after reaching maturity, and how quickly?

That makes me wonder what would happen to a KB who gets 5th heightening agelessness...  would they keep growing or just hit some sort of spiritual ideal and stay there?