Where did the parshendi do get their shards?

[The Stormfather He/Him]

Like where were they? The parshendi had more shards than only Eshonai’s. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by The stormfather

[alder24]

1 hour ago, The stormfather said:

Like where were they? The parshendi had more shards than only Eshonai’s. 

I can't find anything about it. It has been puzzling me too for a while now. Either they've found it at Narrak when they came there, which is unlikely as much evidence points out to Stormseat being shattered before Aharietiam, or during Recreance some Radiants left their blades to them, because they knew neutral Listeners were living at the Shattered Plains and might need them.

I think it's very unlikely that they've somehow get them from local, Natanan nobles after Recreance, as that would imply they had other forms that mateform and dullform (it was Venli who discover warform so it's even more unlikely), plus there would be some stories about contact and wars between humans, and "thinking parshmen". 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

Huh. Maybe some radiants were in storm seat before the recreance 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, The stormfather said:

Like where were they? The parshendi had more shards than only Eshonai’s. 

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I can't find anything about it. It has been puzzling me too for a while now. Either they've found it at Narrak when they came there, which is unlikely as much evidence points out to Stormseat being shattered before Aharietiam, or during Recreance some Radiants left their blades to them, because they knew neutral Listeners were living at the Shattered Plains and might need them.

I think it's very unlikely that they've somehow get them from local, Natanan nobles after Recreance, as that would imply they had other forms that mateform and dullform (it was Venli who discover warform so it's even more unlikely), plus there would be some stories about contact and wars between humans, and "thinking parshmen". 

Don't forget that the Listener Blades had the Gemstone required for bonding and dismissing the blade, which implies they could only have acquired them at least a century after teh recreance (unless you think that the Parshendi, who had never heard or learned of capturing a spren in a gemstone somehow independantly learned a related technique to bond a blade). 

 

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Don't forget that the Listener Blades had the Gemstone required for bonding and dismissing the blade, which implies they could only have acquired them at least a century after teh recreance (unless you think that the Parshendi, who had never heard or learned of capturing a spren in a gemstone somehow independantly learned a related technique to bond a blade). 

Good point. How then? I doubt dullform Parshendi would be able to win them in a fight, or steal them. They were in isolation, so the fall of the Silver Kingdoms would miss them and by this time Stormseat was already shattered, no people there.

Interestingly, Venli said this about Shardblades, which sounds a bit like they were given to them. RoW ch 68:

Quote

“Oh, sister,” Venli said to Amusement, walking around her, then inspecting Thude and the others. “If we’re going to ever stand a hope of resisting the humans—when they inevitably turn against us—we must be ready to bear the weapons with which we were blessed.”
[...]
The group became still. Not all families had Shardbearers; there were only eight sets among all the listeners.

Who would give them Shardblades with gemstones? Not Radiants at Recreance. If they weren't given to them, where did they find 8 sets, 16 Shards in total? That's a lot for a small tribal nation. For comparison I Dalinar in WoK said there were 80 blades in the entire world (WoK ch 52). Parshendi having 10% of them seems significant (10% as that was 5 years into the war and Alethi captured 7 out of 8 blades and Dalinar was aware that at least one blade is still in Parshendi hands).

[Njvodin]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Who would give them Shardblades with gemstones? Not Radiants at Recreance.

I'd like it if there were some sympathisers to the listener cause back when the Recreance was just happening, and some individuals in some specific orders, like maybe some Edgedancers or Stonewards who wanted to help them out. As to how they discovered the gemstones, I have no clue. 

Maybe we'll find out something in Book 5 because I have a feeling the Shin are somehow related to this. They seem to be very mysterious. 

I just think it'd be cool if some of the ancient Radiants were interacting with the listeners, or at least aware of them and supporting their movement. 

[The Stormfather He/Him]

If there were Radiants on peace talks with the parshendi around the time of the recreance, they could have forsworn their oaths and the shards to be taken by the listeners.

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Njvodin said:

I'd like it if there were some sympathisers to the listener cause back when the Recreance was just happening, and some individuals in some specific orders, like maybe some Edgedancers or Stonewards who wanted to help them out. As to how they discovered the gemstones, I have no clue. 

I was thinking that too, but then as @Treamayne pointed out, Listeners Shardblades have a gemstone in them, just like human Shardblades - Radiants left their blades without a gemstone in them, thus they couldn't be dismissed or summoned. They were always stuck in their physical form. Only after a few decades after Recreance someone discovered that you can add gemstones to them and bond a blade. Listeners would have to discover this separately from humans but unlike them, Listeners had no idea about fabrials, trapping spren in a gemstone, no use for gemstones except growing food with larger ones, and their dullform and workform weren't particularly good at science. I find it unlikely that one day a Listener decided to place a correct type of gemstone in their Shardblade, corresponding to the spren type the blade used to be, 

6 hours ago, Njvodin said:

Maybe we'll find out something in Book 5 because I have a feeling the Shin are somehow related to this. They seem to be very mysterious. 

Yes, I have that feeling too. It's likely that they have some amount of Shards hidden in Shinovar. But maybe Skybreakers are related to? They also have Shards.

6 hours ago, Njvodin said:

I just think it'd be cool if some of the ancient Radiants were interacting with the listeners, or at least aware of them and supporting their movement. 

I think they were aware, I would be surprised if no Radiant ever just wanted to visit the ruins of Stormseat and accidentally discover Listeners. But most likely they just left them alone seeing their separation and isolation from Odium and forms of powers. Moreover Listeners talk about Neshua Kadal who fought about their gods, not ones who visited them bringing them gifts. It's also possible that at the time of Recreance Listeners were still in a dullform, without even a workform. 

[Kendelian he/him]

My initial reaction was dead listener spren, but that doesn’t seem likely because the spren abandoned the listeners pre-Recreance. But the possibility of the listeners finding them out in the wild, dropped by some unfortunate Shardbearer, seems unlikely but possible. The theory of Radiants directly giving them to the listeners or just abandoning the Shards in their territory is one I like.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I have always assumed that the Singers walked away with the shards on, and became Listeners. They defected from the rest of their nation and went into hiding in the Shattered Plains. If they cut themselves off from Odium's influence, then he couldn't just locate them..and they knew that if they were found they'd have to fight..so planning your flight while 8 of your best warriors happen to be wearing plate and are bonded to a blade seems like a excellent tactical choice.

I think it moreso with the way Sanderson gave us the inside look into Venli and her plans to leave and all the prep that went into it. She isn't the first, not by a long shot, but that planning is, and was, essential. So I assume the Listeners have had those 16 shards since they became the Listeners, before BAM's capture.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I have always assumed that the Singers walked away with the shards on, and became Listeners. They defected from the rest of their nation and went into hiding in the Shattered Plains. If they cut themselves off from Odium's influence, then he couldn't just locate them..and they knew that if they were found they'd have to fight..so planning your flight while 8 of your best warriors happen to be wearing plate and are bonded to a blade seems like a excellent tactical choice.

I think it moreso with the way Sanderson gave us the inside look into Venli and her plans to leave and all the prep that went into it. She isn't the first, not by a long shot, but that planning is, and was, essential. So I assume the Listeners have had those 16 shards since they became the Listeners, before BAM's capture.

This can't be true because the Last Legion abandoned Odium before Recreance, so that's before any Shards existed in a deadeye form, and spren weren't bonding with Singers at that time.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Oooooook, then that shoots that assumption to pieces. Yeah..I have zero idea how dull form Listeners acquire 8 sets of shards.
 

Edited September 12, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen
Adding to avoid double posting then deleted it.

[Chandlerhimself]

I think humans might have just lost them. I imagine some people might have gone into the shattered plains, perhaps looking for gem hearts and just died in there. Over hundreds of years I'm sure more than a few did, so they'd be able to get a few just by accident. They could have also had someone act as a spy like Rlain did and steal them. Pretend to be a parshman and then when you have your chance, kill your master, take the shard blade and escape into the night. 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Chandlerhimself said:

I think humans might have just lost them. I imagine some people might have gone into the shattered plains, perhaps looking for gem hearts and just died in there. Over hundreds of years I'm sure more than a few did, so they'd be able to get a few just by accident. They could have also had someone act as a spy like Rlain did and steal them. Pretend to be a parshman and then when you have your chance, kill your master, take the shard blade and escape into the night. 

Lost Shards seems like a good solution - some might get lost east of Shattered Plains and Highstorms carried those Shards to Parshendi or something. Brandon did say that many Shards were lost in Highstorms etc. 

Spoiler

Jofwu

It seems that deadeyes can wander Shadesmar freely, but when summoned as a Shardblade and subsequently dismissed, they end up at the location in Shadesmar corresponding to the location of the Shardbearer. How does this work for deadeyes who are cared for by a loved one, like Captain Ico?

Brandon Sanderson

They would vanish if their Shardblade were summoned.

Adam Horne

But it's been a while since that's happened, so it's not as much of a concern?

Brandon Sanderson

You can assume that there are more deadeyes wandering Shadesmar whose Shardblades have been lost, than there are ones that the Shardblades are kept. Probably about an equal number, I would say, 50/50. Though I would have to really crunch those numbers. I'd say that across 5000 years-ish... not quite, but you know. That a lot of those weapons, even though they are powerful and things like that, are gonna get lost. Ships are gonna get sunk; things get covered over with crem on Roshar; people go up to cross mountain passes to go attack, and they end up freezing and dying. And I think that over the years, there's been a ton of those that have been lost.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

But it's unlikely that Listeners got them as spies - their first contact with humans was just before the WoK began, with Gavilar and Dalinar. They didn't meet humans before, at least as far as we know. This would require them to establish contact with humans before, steal Shards and somehow make humans completely forget about them for centuries to come, as well as future generations of Listeners would have to forget about this first contact. I think that's very unlikely.

Edited September 13, 2023 by alder24

[LuckyJim]

This is actually explained in the flashbacks, they found them in the 10 cities that were later occupied by the Alethi when they formed their warcamps. There was either a complete set in each of the ten cities, or only eight full sets. I can't remember the full details.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

This is actually explained in the flashbacks, they found them in the 10 cities that were later occupied by the Alethi when they formed their warcamps. There was either a complete set in each of the ten cities, or only eight full sets. I can't remember the full details.

Can you quote or at least provide a chapter? I remember them talking about finding regular steel weapons, not Shardblades and Shardplates. I think they told this to Gavilar/Dalinar/humans, who at that point still didn't know Parshendi had Shards.

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

This is actually explained in the flashbacks, they found them in the 10 cities that were later occupied by the Alethi when they formed their warcamps. There was either a complete set in each of the ten cities, or only eight full sets. I can't remember the full details.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Can you quote or at least provide a chapter? I remember them talking about finding regular steel weapons, not Shardblades and Shardplates. I think they told this to Gavilar/Dalinar/humans, who at that point still didn't know Parshendi had Shards.

Do you mean this section? Ch 48 (Nine years ago)

Spoiler

Eshonai kept busy by helping erect the tents. She wanted to figure out the pieces. She was fairly certain she could carve poles like the ones used for holding up the roof. But the cloth was lighter, smoother, than what the listeners could create. One of the workers was having trouble with a knot, so Eshonai took out her knife to cut it free.

“What is that?” a voice said from behind her. “Do you mind showing me that knife?”

It was the woman with the rings. Eshonai had thought she might be once-mates with the king, considering how often she spoke with him. But apparently there was no relation.

Eshonai glanced down, realizing that she’d brought out her good hunting knife. It was one of the weapons her ancestors had salvaged from the ruins at the center of the Plains, with beautiful metal that had lines in it, and a carved hilt of majestic detail.

She shrugged and showed it to the woman. The strange woman, in turn, waved urgently to the king. He left the shade and stepped over, taking the knife and narrowing his eyes as he studied it.

“Where did you get this?” he asked Eshonai.

“It is old,” she said, not wanting to say too much. “Handed down. Generations.”

“Lasting back to the False Desolation, perhaps?” the woman asked the king. “Could they really have weapons two thousand years old?”

The listener Shardblades were far more marvelous, but Eshonai didn’t speak of those. Her family didn’t own any anyway.

“I would like to know,” the king said, “how you—”

He was interrupted by a trumping in the near distance. 

It implies some weapons were found at Narak, but does not say if the Shards were among them.

[Chandlerhimself]

On 9/13/2023 at 7:29 PM, alder24 said:

Lost Shards seems like a good solution - some might get lost east of Shattered Plains and Highstorms carried those Shards to Parshendi or something. Brandon did say that many Shards were lost in Highstorms etc. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Jofwu

It seems that deadeyes can wander Shadesmar freely, but when summoned as a Shardblade and subsequently dismissed, they end up at the location in Shadesmar corresponding to the location of the Shardbearer. How does this work for deadeyes who are cared for by a loved one, like Captain Ico?

Brandon Sanderson

They would vanish if their Shardblade were summoned.

Adam Horne

But it's been a while since that's happened, so it's not as much of a concern?

Brandon Sanderson

You can assume that there are more deadeyes wandering Shadesmar whose Shardblades have been lost, than there are ones that the Shardblades are kept. Probably about an equal number, I would say, 50/50. Though I would have to really crunch those numbers. I'd say that across 5000 years-ish... not quite, but you know. That a lot of those weapons, even though they are powerful and things like that, are gonna get lost. Ships are gonna get sunk; things get covered over with crem on Roshar; people go up to cross mountain passes to go attack, and they end up freezing and dying. And I think that over the years, there's been a ton of those that have been lost.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

But it's unlikely that Listeners got them as spies - their first contact with humans was just before the WoK began, with Gavilar and Dalinar. They didn't meet humans before, at least as far as we know. This would require them to establish contact with humans before, steal Shards and somehow make humans completely forget about them for centuries to come, as well as future generations of Listeners would have to forget about this first contact. I think that's very unlikely.

I forgot that they just contacted the humans. It seems that them being lost in the shattered plains makes the most sense. Especially considering the high storms and how light they are. I can imagine a war going on and a high storm comes along. Shardbarers die and their Shards just get caught in the storm and thrown all over the place. 

[LuckyJim]

The information about the shards comes from chapter 68: One Family.

Quote

Sharafel. The family's Shardbearer. Upon obtaining this city, by tradition the defeated family had given up the city's Shards for her family to protect and keep.

Also, it does appear that the listeners had only eight sets of shards on the Shattered Plains.

Quote

Not all families had Shardbearers; there were only eight sets among all the listeners. Those who held the proper eight cities were blessed with them, to be wielded only in hunts against greatshells. Those were rare events, where many families would band together to harvest a gemheart for growing crops, then feast upon the slain beast.

So there were eight sets of Shards, and ownership of them was determined by whichever family held one of the ten cities that they were associated with. There doesn't seem to be information about how they came to be there there, so either they found them, or perhaps the Last Legion obtained them at some point and brought them there.