JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said: Her people's lives aren't under imminent threat. Raboniel isn't harming any humans in the Tower at the moment. You mention several times how Raboniel lies and shouldn't be trusted. Navani knows that if she is not useful to Raboniel then her life is useless. Her people are absolutely under threat because Raboniel has no use for them. The Singers have not slaughtered people who surrender, for the most part, but everyone in between Raboniel and the pillar was killed without hesitation, and most of those people were absolutely no threat to the Singers physically. They were killed because they could have called for help..nothing more. They aren't doing any real work. Navani knows this and Raboniel knows this. So why is Raboniel keeping them all directly down the hall from Navani instead of locked up anywhere else in the tower? Because they are a constant reminder to Navani that if she doesn't produce some kind of results, they can be slaughtered at any moment. They both allude to this fact in their conversations. She tries every means she can to stall and delay, and Raboniel suffers it for a time because it's all a part of the psychological warfare. And eventually, she implies quite clearly that Navani had better start producing, or be deemed useless. Her people down the hall were already useless, their only value was their ability to coerce Navani by being alive. 20 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said: Furthermore, she thinks Navani has already answered her question after the discovery of Warlight. After that, she tells Navani that she has earned her respect and can do whatever she wants, at least until Raboniel finishes killing the tower. If Raboniel kills the Sibling, the war is effectively over. Odium's forces have the oathgates..they can travel with ease and show up behind enemy lines with overwhelming numbers. Dalinar's forces could have destroyed the physical gates, but it would only be a relatively short amount of time before they were surrounded and starved into submission. So literally anything to stop the Tower's fall is a more rational choice than sitting there and letting it happen. You mention she has a loving family who supports her..who would most likely all die in battle if the Tower fell. I don't know about you, but faced with that reality, there's almost nothing I wouldn't try to stop or even delay that outcome. Aside from that, Navani was close to a breakthrough. It was like an insect burrowing into her brain. She knew something was there, and felt compelled to discover it. I do believe that in her near frenzied state, she probably thought she could hide anti-light better. One thing that Sanderson demonstrates and describes, over and over, throughout their collaboration is the truly deep connection Raboniel (and by extention all Singers) have to the Rhythms of Roshar, and just how much Navani underestimates that fact, because they have never done any research into it. I don't know how many folks with a PhD who actively do research, that you met (I personally know about a dozen) but if you haven't, then you probably don't know just how blind to facts outside of their fields people like that can be. Navani is fluent in many, many fields of study, but due to internalized bigotry and prejudice from thousands of years of the belief that Parshmen have no value outside of their labor, she hasn't spent any time researching who the Singers are and what they can do. Navani demonstrates throughout all four books that she learns through careful and meticulous examination of whatever subject she is interested in, and the Singers are a huge blind spot in her considerable knowledge. She seems surprised by a lot of what Raboniel does, and it may seem stupid to you, because you have been given some rather intimate descriptions of the Singer's Connection to Roshar. Navani has none (or almost none) of that information. If someone had sat down with Navani at the beginning of RoW and described everything we know about the Singers and the Listener's Connection to the planet, the Rhythms, the pure Tones of Roshar...do you believe she would have acted in the same way? I sure don't. She acted based on the knowledge she had, and was very often surprised by the knowledge she didn't have. 20 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said: a) Raboniel cannot be trusted and will happily omit the true implications of what she asked Navani to achieve her true goals. Very true, Raboniel cannot be trusted, and could (and probably would) kill all of Navani's people eventually because leaving human scientists alive is a tactical error. She had always been planning to murder all of the Radiants, and I am confident that as soon as Raboniel was sure she could get nothing more from Navani, she would have killed her scientists and locked Navani away..as I imagine she would not execute someone whom she'd given a Title to. 20 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said: b ) She knows that the most likely outcome by far is that the Sibling is unmade and the Tower falls, cutting her off from her allies permanently. Correct. And as I've said, that's the end of the war. Not immediately, but there is no victory (in Navani's mind) if the Tower falls. It doesn't just cut her off from her allies..it cuts her allies off from everyone and everything they need to continue fighting this war. 20 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said: c) Her actions are being monitored. At best, her findings have no way of reaching her allies. That's true. She is hoping that Kaladin will save the day. From her viewpoint it's a slim hope but hey, he's Kaladin Stormblessed..miracle worker..so maybe. And as has been stated by me and others, she wasn't entirely in her right mind at this point, she had always been working at a disadvantage in knowledge, and she was trying any desperate thing she could to stop the fall of the Tower. 20 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said: d) I can forgive her for not figuring out the implications of anti-Voidlight, but she does know it's a powerful weapon Raboniel wants. See point a. I am glad that you feel that way. Coupled with the fact that she truly didn't understand the Singers, that's a kind response. By then, she had made the decision to lean into her scholarship and hope for the best at the end. Because ultimately, the war was almost over. If the Tower fell, that was it. No Raboniel coudn't be trusted, and yes it was extremely dangerous to proceed, but everything she knew and everyone she loves was going to be destroyed if Raboniel succeeded in corrupting the Tower, that was a guarantee..working on anti-Voidlight was a chance. Granted, about the chance of winning the powerball to get you out of utter financial ruin, but hey, she'd seen miracles before, and she still believes in them..so she tried for that, and to some extent succeeded. 20 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said: Based on these 4 pieces of information, the blindingly obvious conclusion is that if you undertake research into this mysterious weapon, it will be discovered by an enemy that will abuse the weapon in some way. Sure enough, that's exactly what happens and Navani is somehow surprised at every step. I find it highly reductive to handwave away all of this as the result of trauma because there are many other characters in SA with tragic pasts who are manipulated in ways that are actually plausible. Again, Navani had very little choice. She could sit and watch the Tower fall and that be it, or she could try to go along with what Raboniel was doing and hope for a chance at besting her. There was no hope of actually besting her (both because I don't know how someone could best a 7,000+ year old genius who knows way more about what you're doing than you do) and Navani alludes to that more than once, but it's better than nothing. And no, factoring in her trauma to all of these events isn't reductive. It absolutely plays a role in the decisions that Navani makes, and the way she executes those decisions. Just like all of us. Everything that happens with Navani in RoW comes down to either doing nothing, and knowing that's the end, or doing something and hoping for any other outcome. That seems like a fairly logical choice to me? What else was there for her to do? How is that not "actually plausible"? 20 hours ago, Aldehyde1 said: Navani never stopped over the weeks she was working and thought, "Hmm, I have a loving family that supports me now but is in danger. Should I keep working on a dangerous weapon that will probably fall into the hands of enemy who has shown she will happily lie to and exploit me?" I think what you're saying is how it should have been written. If Raboniel had actually threatened people close to Navani, or perhaps pretended to go along with Navani so Navani could plausibly think Raboniel was trustworthy, then I would understand the storyline. I don't recall if Raboniel explicitly threatens Navani's people or not, but the implication is very very clear. Raboniel doesn't need Navani's people, and their intelligence is a threat to the Singers. While they could speed up scientific discovery for the Singers, they aren't necessary in the long run. Raboniel keeping them down the hall is the ever present threat to Navani. Raboniel could at any moment, have everyone in the room executed without anyone to stop it from happening. And again, Navani stops to think, (Im paraphrasing but it's blatantly obvious to her) "If this Tower falls, that it. That's the end of all of this. The humans lose, and Odium wins." Everything that she attempts from the invasion of the Tower onward, as to stop that from happening, because any loss of a weapon is better than the loss of the war. You can't argue that the Singers having anti-Stormlight is a worse outcome than taking the Tower and grinding the humans down to defeat. There is no scenario where Dalinar loses the tower but manages to win the war. The only way for them to win, as has been stated over and over and over, is for a contest of champions, and there is a 0% chance of Odium agreeing to that with the Tower permanently in his control. The only people who really have a worse outcome from this, are the Spren..and yes..it's bad. It's real bad. The Spren will now know death in a way they never have before, but the Spren of old knew this was a possibility and they fought against it. The Spren of today will, by and large, (I assume) do the same thing now. I understand your frustration with Navani in RoW. Personally, I am far more frustrated with her and Dalinar over not researching the history of the tower and what it can do. If nobody else could help, Wit should have been able to, but he didn't. And, as far as I can tell, nobody seriously considered the vulnerabilities of the tower, even after Taravangian allowed a small force into the Tower (well, outside of it). That's a gaping tactical error that isn't explored. They knew there were tunnels down to the base of the tower but never asked why..or looked into what the significance of those tunnels could mean..tactically or otherwise. But specifically to Navani, Sanderson put her in the Kobayashi Maru (for anyone not familiar, it's a well known No-win training scenario at Star Fleet acadamy, in Star Trek) There were no good options for Navani, by design. But Sanderson had to get Navani to the role of Bondsmith, and he had to have anti-Light out in the world. And, this was the way he got us there. I would have preferred a different route for a lot of reasons. That said, I still don't think it is a fair representation of Navani to call her stupid, and to ignore the facts of her life up till now, and the choice she was given once the Tower was taken. It wasn't much of a choice, but she tried her best. She failed in a lot of ways, and that sucks and it's deeply frustrating, but she did what she could. I don't think that you or I could have done any better in her place. I know I couldn't have. I also know that I would have tried the same things she did..in her place..with her knowledge (and the lack thereof). Because I would not have simply sat and watched my world end. Because that's what was at stake..the whole world. @Green Hoodie Mistborn I didn't see your post until after I wrote this, and it's spot on. Thank you for that. Edited August 31, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen Avoiding double posting 2
MistbornMathematician Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 22 minutes ago, therunner said: Her scientist go to her for advice when stuck. Her engineers go to her for ideas on how to improve desings. So they clearly value her input, and think she is capable of insights they are not. The fact that her researchers communicate well with her shows that they respect her as a manager and that she's good at managing them. The single most valuable thing a leader can do in a research-and-development group is communicate with their employees and direct them to other employees who can help them solve whatever they're stuck on at any given moment. Navani does both quite well. Strictly speaking, it is not her job to give scientific or engineering advice -- it is her job to direct the person asking to the source or person who can give that advice. If that source or person is her, so much the better, but it's not her role in the operation to always be the expert in the room.
alder24 Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 34 minutes ago, therunner said: Cutting the plate would do exactly nothing to it, it would be trivial to replicate even with the cut. If she could easily recreate it, so could anyone else, especially Fused since the plate makes the exact same physical Tone as the Pure Tone of Odium, it is the Intent when using the plate that renders it anti-Tone. There is no anti-Tone plate, only Tone plate and Intent when using it. So the plate is just plate that makes Pure Tone of Odium, without Intent it is not dangerous, nor difficult to recreate. Wrong, the plate was mathematically anti-Odium tone, no intent is required to use it. RoW ch 97: Quote During her feverish study into sound theory, she discovered the answer to this. A wave could be negated, its opposite created and presented in a way that nullified the original. Canceling it out. They called it destructive interference. Strangely, the theories said that a sound and its opposite sounded exactly the same [...] Navani kept her face impassive. Well, that answered one question. She’d wondered if the person playing the note needed the proper Intent to eject the Voidlight, but it seemed that creating the plate to align to her hummed tones was enough. 34 minutes ago, therunner said: The notes were hidden! I don't understand how you can't comprehend the simple fact that when Raboniel requested notes, Navani gave them to her. That's my whole point of this "hidden notes" part, which I keep repeating. If she declined then you have a point. 34 minutes ago, therunner said: She pretended to do other research at the time (thermal effect on Tones). That research was linked to her efforts of creating anti-light. She tried to find a way to dampen the tone of light to rewrite it, RoW ch 97: Quote Raboniel hummed to herself, then glanced at the bucket of ice water. “You’re trying to find a way to dampen the vibrations of the Voidlight so you can rewrite it with a different tone." 34 minutes ago, therunner said: Yes, she had no way of having it, no reason to criticize her for that. If anything, that is reason for less criticism since that is what science is researching something you don't have knowledge of. That's my point. This is the part where I'm making excuses for Navani explaining why she acted like she did. Some of those factors are external. I understand why she failed, but this still irritates me. I've expected better from her. I'm not answering again to your other points. This was my way of ending this discussion. There is no point of repeating the same thing over and over again, when emotions are involved. It still was fun, as always, talking with you.
therunner he/him Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: The fact that her researchers communicate well with her shows that they respect her as a manager and that she's good at managing them. The single most valuable thing a leader can do in a research-and-development group is communicate with their employees and direct them to other employees who can help them solve whatever they're stuck on at any given moment. Navani does both quite well. Strictly speaking, it is not her job to give scientific or engineering advice -- it is her job to direct the person asking to the source or person who can give that advice. If that source or person is her, so much the better, but it's not her role in the operation to always be the expert in the room. No, they clearly respect her as a scientist. They don't ask her to manage, they ask her for advice on scientific topics. And yeah, when she knows about someone else she points them that way, as any reasonable person would. Does not change the fact that they ask her opinion, specifically. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Wrong, the plate was mathematically anti-Odium tone, no intent is required to use it. RoW ch 97: And Navani did not know that until Raboniel played the note, hence Navani could not have known that the plate can create anti-Tone. Edit: And so she had no reason to think the plate itself is dangerous in any way, shape or form. She clearly wanted to test it, she simply did not have the time. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I don't understand how you can't comprehend the simple fact that when Raboniel requested notes, Navani gave them to her. That's my whole point of this "hidden notes" part, which I keep repeating. If she declined then you have a point. And I don't understand how you can't comprehend the simple fact that when notes are explicitly called 'hidden' that means they were hidden. She gave them to her only when they would be found anyway. To say she simply handed over the notes is gross oversimplification. Giving them to Raboniel or not would not have made any difference at that point, only in that Raboniel would have trusted her a bit less. So I simply don't see how handing over the notes is a mistake in any way, because not handing them over leads to the same outcome, only few hours later at best, which ultimately is no difference at all. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: That research was linked to her efforts of creating anti-light. She tried to find a way to dampen the tone of light to rewrite it, RoW ch 97: Quote Raboniel hummed to herself, then glanced at the bucket of ice water. “You’re trying to find a way to dampen the vibrations of the Voidlight so you can rewrite it with a different tone." Not exactly true, it was linked also to changing the Rhythm in general and Navani intentionally lied that she was also experimenting with dampening vibrations. RoW 97: Quote "Seeing if a colder temperature changes the vibrations in a gemstone," Navani admitted. "Would you hold this one and tell me if the rhythm change - or grows louder - as it warms up?" ... "I'm trying to determine if anything alters the tone," Navani said. "Creating Warlight requires a slight alteration of Odium's and Honor's tones, in order to put them into harmony. If I can find other things that alter Voidlight's tone, I might be able to create other hybrids." It was a plausible enough explanation. It should explain her requests for plates and other devices, even ice. So Navani was using it to also mask her true research. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: That's my point. This is the part where I'm making excuses for Navani explaining why she acted like she did. Some of those factors are external. I understand why she failed, but this still irritates me. I've expected better from her. Expected better than what? The only failure she had was loosing control of the how to make anti-Light. But her side still has it, her side managed to defend the Tower, her side managed to bring back Sibling all thanks to Navani. Edit: And I will note that her research into anti-Light was crucial in enabling the victory at the end. It pushed away a bit of Voidlight in Sibling, and it stoped Moash for a moment, who would have otherwise killed Navani before she could bond Sibling. So without her research into anti-Light, Coalition would have lost the Tower. That alone means it was not a mistake. The fact that Fused have access to that knowledge now is regrettable, but it was next to impossible to avoid, considering perceptual and knowledge disparity. If she did not lose the research, she would have perfectly navigated the invasion. And I am certain some people would (rightfully) call her 'Mary Sue'. It is unrealistic to expect everything to go her way, when she is in inherently disadvantageous position. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I'm not answering again to your other points. This was my way of ending this discussion. There is no point of repeating the same thing over and over again, when emotions are involved. It still was fun, as always, talking with you. Fair enough. It was kinda fun for me as well, though I admit some lines of reasoning are simply baffling to me. Edited August 31, 2023 by therunner 3
Frustration Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 2 hours ago, therunner said: That is criticism of writing, not Navani. That doesn't mean Navani is worthy, whether it's a criticism of the writing or not. 2 hours ago, therunner said: You mean they change their mind after Navani starts singing Rhythm of the Tower? One that Sibling did not hear since Honor was killed? Loss of which crippled them? That is quite a bit of reason to change their mind. She didn't do that until after they bonded. 2 hours ago, therunner said: Huh? Working with someone who knows more than you in hopes of stealing that knowledge makes it worse? How? If your opponent is more experienced than you, more knowledgeable than you, and by every possible indication smarter than you: Do not under any circumstance try to outsmart them. 2 hours ago, therunner said: Yes Raboniel does have more knowledge. She teaches Navani a lot. Try re-reading those chapters. That's not what I meant, Navani did not once stop or even slow Raboniel from learning what she wanted, so you cannot say she "Stonewalled her" 2 hours ago, therunner said: What actually happens is that Navani first makes Warlight with Raboniel, she could not make it on her own. That's handing it to her! When Raboniel asks for Navani to mix Stormlight and Voidlight Navani says "To prove humans and singers can be united?" And Raboniel answers with "Yes, for that reason." Like can you be any more transparently dishonest? Raboniel might as well have jumped up and down screaming "I am lying to you, I want this for some other reason." But Navani still makes it. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Later she is forced into making anti-Light by Raboniel, she does not hand it over. How? Raboniel didn't know about vacuum tubes, she had no way to prove anti-light could be made, only that anti-tones existed. Navani of her own free will made anti-light in front of her, and gave it to Raboniel. 3 hours ago, therunner said: And you blindly trust Raboniel on that? Don't you criticize Navani for taking Raboniel at her word? So which is it, Raboniel is trustworthy or not? She isn't, but that does not excuse blindly doing exactly what Raboniel wanted. I'd at least have a modicum of respect for her if she had denied Raboniel at first and then was forced to work with her, but she didn't do that, instead jumping at the first opportunity to work with Raboniel despite the obvious red flags which is patently stupid. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Not true, Raboniel was partially interest in fabrials, even if it was not her main goal. She notes multiple times that modern fabrials are very impressive. She was interested in the same way people visiting the Louvre is at looking at other paintings than the Mona Lisa. They were mere curiosities, the only thing she really cared about was anti-light. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Yes it is her motivation, Navani literally says so. That's what she says, but that is far from the only thing she could do. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Neither of which Navani can achieve, since She cannot go into the pillar room, no human can. So she has no way of breaking the garnets. She has no way of contacting outside of world, much less getting Chiri-Chiri. So they are not easier methods, because they are outright impossible in Navani's position. And Navani is not supposed to do them, that's why Kaladin is there. Navani's job in this situation is to inform Kaladin and then not help Raboniel. 3 hours ago, therunner said: And if they break the garnets, they will guarantee that Tower will no longer have protection against Odium's forces. It would be smart to try to break them once it is clear they cannot win, but to try earlier is stupid considering the risks and benefits. We know that new functions can be added to the Sibling, the Garnets can be replaced once the Fused are dealt with. Not to mention the meager protection it was providing wasn't worth much. 3 hours ago, therunner said: How is Kaladin to get into the most guarded room in the entire Tower when he has next to no abilities? At fourth ideal all of his powers worked. And its not like a group of completely regular humans almost did it or anything. 3 hours ago, therunner said: And he cannot get Chiri Chiri, he has no idea where it is. Then it would be really convenient if he was in contact with someone who did, like say Navani. 3 hours ago, therunner said: And yeah, stone cannot stop Shardblade. But godspren in physical form could, which is what Sibling is. Or they could Invest the stone. The Sibling is concentrated in the Pillar, not the Stone itself, as seen when Venli is able to talk to the stone, which notably has a different Soul. 3 hours ago, therunner said: You need Raysium if you don't have pressure differential. If you do have, Investiture will flow naturally. Or you can have small device that will play Tone of Odium, forcing anti-Voidlight out of the gemstone. There are ways, and they don't rely on extremely rare metal that Odium explicitly does not like to give out. How do you get anti-voidlight into their gemhearts without Raysium? Not just out of the gem but into their gemhearts? And you still haven't found a solution to getting Voidlight. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Dead Fused is better than insane Fused. Raboniel was insane for a time and got better, so insanity is not guarantee that Fused is off the board for good. That's not true, Leshwi thought Raboniel had gone insane, but she didn't. Insane Fused are basically useless, staring at walls and drooling. 3 hours ago, therunner said: There is only one Nightblood and can be wielded only by Radiant and only for short time. Anti-Light can be wielded by anyone, without any risk to them. Nightblood is a manageable risk for Radiants, but one that would instantly kill Fused. So anti-light is objectively more dangerous for the Coalition. 3 hours ago, therunner said: Citation needed. There are fifty Windrunners, Three Truthwatchers, Some dozen Lightweavers, Dustbringers, and Edgedancers, and an unknown number of Stonewards. There are thousands of Fused, not to mention Thunderclasts.
alder24 Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 50 minutes ago, therunner said: And Navani did not know that until Raboniel played the note, hence Navani could not have known that the plate can create anti-Tone. Edit: And so she had no reason to think the plate itself is dangerous in any way, shape or form. She clearly wanted to test it, she simply did not have the time. What? She knew the plate creates anti-Tone, she knew there is a possibility that everyone can play it and she tested the plate herself several times already. She knew it works. Most importantly, because of her experiments with Warlight, she knew anti-Tone is the most important step in discovery of anti-light, and thus it should be prevented from falling into Fused hands by all means. RoW ch 97: Quote It took hours. Maybe days. When it finally happened, she knelt blearyeyed on the stone floor at some unholy hour. Holding a bow, testing her newest version of the plate. When she played this particular tone—bow on steel—something happened. Voidlight was shoved out of the sphere attached to the plate. It was pushed away from the source of the sound. She tested it again, then a third time to be sure. Though she should have wanted to shout for joy, she simply sat there staring. She ran her hand through her hair, which she hadn’t put up today. Then she laughed. It worked. The next day—washed and feeling slightly less insane—Navani incremented. She tested how loud the tone needed to be to produce the desired effect. She measured the tone on different sizes of gemstones and on a stream of Voidlight leaving a sphere to flow toward a tuning fork. [...] Confident that her tone worked, she began training herself to hum the tone the plate made. It did sound the same, but somehow it wasn’t the same [...] She had found Voidlight’s opposite tone. 59 minutes ago, therunner said: And I don't understand how you can't comprehend the simple fact that when notes are explicitly called 'hidden' that means they were hidden. They weren't hidden when she handed them over to Raboniel... You argued that Navani wanted to delay the unmaking of the Tower. Leaving notes hidden would be perfect for that, as it would take hours to find them and even more to actually create anti-Voidlight, giving the Sibling much more time. Navani knew how fixated Raboniel was on combining Voidlight with the opposite, and this would still happen - Navani would still have her assassination attempt. But even better - don't give them that knowledge at all. She would still have the knowledge to save the Sibling, while Fused would be left with nothing. 1 hour ago, therunner said: So Navani was using it to also mask her true research. She was both trying to find a way to overwrite the tone but had an plausible explanation ready for Raboniel. That wasn't a random experiment. 1 hour ago, therunner said: Expected better than what? The only failure she had was loosing control of the how to make anti-Light. Yes, that's the problem. 1 hour ago, therunner said: Edit: And I will note that her research into anti-Light was crucial in enabling the victory at the end. It pushed away a bit of Voidlight in Sibling, and it stoped Moash for a moment, who would have otherwise killed Navani before she could bond Sibling. So without her research into anti-Light, Coalition would have lost the Tower. That alone means it was not a mistake. The fact that Fused have access to that knowledge now is regrettable, but it was next to impossible to avoid, considering perceptual and knowledge disparity. If she sucessfully conseal the knowledge of anit-Tone she would still be able to push Voidlight from the Tower and stop Moash, as that was done by humming anti-Odium tone, not by anti-Voidlight. 1 hour ago, therunner said: If she did not lose the research, she would have perfectly navigated the invasion. And I am certain some people would (rightfully) call her 'Mary Sue'. No, she was outmatched and was the reason for the second node to get destroyed. That's not perfect. Another point is that Navani actually figured out that Raboniel lied to her about wanting to kill Odium but still pursued to discover anti-light without thinking of what was the real reason Raboniel wanted to create anti-light. That's a huge red flag as now Navani knew Raboniel wanted anti-light for malicious intent but didn't think about consequences at all. Navani can't be excused by "being manipulated by Raboniel" as she knew it and did nothing. RoW ch 89: Quote “I’m so tired of this war. So tired of capturing, killing, losing, dying.” “We should end it then.” “Not while Odium lives.” “You’d actually kill him?” Navani asked. “If you had the chance?” Raboniel hummed, but looked away. That humming is … embarrassment? Navani thought. She recognizes she’s lied to me, at least by implication. She doesn’t truly want to kill Odium. “When you were hunting the opposite of Voidlight, you didn’t want to use it against him,” Navani guessed. “You teased me with the idea, but you have another purpose.” “You learn to read rhythms,” Raboniel said, standing up.
therunner he/him Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Frustration said: She didn't do that until after they bonded. Technically she did at the same time as making the bond. The thing that convinced Sibling to bond was 1) Using anti-Tone of Voidlight to alleviate their 'pain' somewhat. 2) Singing Pure Tone of Honor, and starting to harmonize with Sibling. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: If your opponent is more experienced than you, more knowledgeable than you, and by every possible indication smarter than you: Do not under any circumstance try to outsmart them. Ah, so you should just give up if enemy has advantage. And no, if enemy has more knowledge you try to get that knowledge. You try to remove the edge. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: That's not what I meant, Navani did not once stop or even slow Raboniel from learning what she wanted, so you cannot say she "Stonewalled her" She was slowing her down at the very beginning for several days. Then she was doing her best to hide her research. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: That's handing it to her! When Raboniel asks for Navani to mix Stormlight and Voidlight Navani says "To prove humans and singers can be united?" And Raboniel answers with "Yes, for that reason." Like can you be any more transparently dishonest? Raboniel might as well have jumped up and down screaming "I am lying to you, I want this for some other reason." But Navani still makes it. So Navani does not do that, does not learn how to harmonize Light, as a result cannot help Sibling restore their Connection, and Tower falls. Great, as a result of Navani's actions Coalition lost the war. I am glad you were not in that position. And sure Navani can try to refuse. Then Raboniel either finds someone else to try it with, or more likely, threatens the scientists or Radiants until Navani complies. Navani is prisoner, don't forget that. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: How? Raboniel didn't know about vacuum tubes, she had no way to prove anti-light could be made, only that anti-tones existed. Navani of her own free will made anti-light in front of her, and gave it to Raboniel. Ah, free will of prisoner when faced with someone who repeatedly threatened her subordinates and people in her charge. Raboniel read the notes, if there are speculations on making anti-Light, Navani has very little maneuvering room to mislead her. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: She isn't, but that does not excuse blindly doing exactly what Raboniel wanted. I'd at least have a modicum of respect for her if she had denied Raboniel at first and then was forced to work with her, but she didn't do that, instead jumping at the first opportunity to work with Raboniel despite the obvious red flags which is patently stupid. Navani in that very sequence says to Raboniel that she cannot trust her. Raboniel has shown herself to be willing to use violence to achieve her goals. What do you think will happen once Navani refuses, and won't budge? Raboniel will kill her subordinates, first one, then more. Then she can move to start killing Radiants. She never 'jumps at first opportunity', she is simply very aware of her position (prisoner) with no actual power to say no. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: She was interested in the same way people visiting the Louvre is at looking at other paintings than the Mona Lisa. They were mere curiosities, the only thing she really cared about was anti-light. Not at all. Anti-Light was her primary interest, but she was clearly interest in science of fabrials in general and in Light science as well. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: That's what she says, but that is far from the only thing she could do. It's what she says, and what she thinks throughout the entire book. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: And Navani is not supposed to do them, that's why Kaladin is there. Navani's job in this situation is to inform Kaladin and then not help Raboniel. You mean like she was informing Kaladin? And using the fact she was working with Raboniel to supply Kaladin with crucial equipment without which Kaladin could do exactly nothing? She gave him the glove and the gems with voidspren that can work in Tower. She cannot get that without working with Raboniel. And Kaladin can do neither of the things you propose. It is kinda important that they cannot get message out (so no Chiri Chiri) and that Kaladin barely is able to fight. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: We know that new functions can be added to the Sibling, the Garnets can be replaced once the Fused are dealt with. Not to mention the meager protection it was providing wasn't worth much. Can they? Suppresor is not add-on but original part of Sibling. Something could be probably replicated but it would not be as strong. It is explicitly mentioned that the metal and crystals are physical body, so you suggest that Radiants cripple Sibling. And the protection it provides is not 'meager', in case you forget, once Sibling awakens all Fused are powerless (Deepest One get stuck in stone), Odium's influence on Moash is completely negated (so it is enough to block effects of Shard at least to some extent) and in the past was enough to repel Unmade. 'Meager' sure. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: At fourth ideal all of his powers worked. And pray how is Navani supposed to know that Kaladin will try to kill himself, and Dalinar will Connect him with the soul of his dead brother to help him overcome his trauma so he can swear the Ideal? Seriously mate, this is incredibly weak argument. Kaladin has Adhesion and Reverse Lashing, both weaker than usual. Those are the powers both Navani and Kaladin operate with. Not dream of 4th Oath Kaladin. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: And its not like a group of completely regular humans almost did it or anything. Not like single Fused broke the formation completly. And not like Raboniel can turn weapons to dust as they touch her. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: Then it would be really convenient if he was in contact with someone who did, like say Navani. You mean someone who knows that Chiri-Chiri is not in the Tower? And someone who has no way of communicating with the outside world? Nor way to get someone inside the Tower? Unless Navani spontaneously develops Elsecalling, she has no way to get Chiri-Chiri. At least think your arguments through. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: The Sibling is concentrated in the Pillar, not the Stone itself, as seen when Venli is able to talk to the stone, which notably has a different Soul. But can somehow affect the stone as well, otherwise it would not form halls, rooms, moveable doors, etc. Quote How do you get anti-voidlight into their gemhearts without Raysium? Not just out of the gem but into their gemhearts? Stab them, then pressure differential. Glass daggers for example. Quote And you still haven't found a solution to getting Voidlight. Try realigning Stormlight into anti-Voidlight? If in vacuum the Investiture is truly Rhytm-less it should work. Quote That's not true, Leshwi thought Raboniel had gone insane, but she didn't. So what is the guarantee that the Fused are actually insane, and not Raboniel 'insane'? Quote Nightblood is a manageable risk for Radiants, but one that would instantly kill Fused. So anti-light is objectively more dangerous for the Coalition. No, anti-light is objectively more useful than Nightblood, because unlike Nightblood it can be replicated. Quote There are fifty Windrunners, Three Truthwatchers, Some dozen Lightweavers, Dustbringers, and Edgedancers, and an unknown number of Stonewards. There are thousands of Fused, not to mention Thunderclasts. So there are fewer Radiants then Fused, not spren like you said. because your original point was this : Quote Or the fact that there are more Fused than Spren. Not Radiants, spren. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: What? She knew the plate creates anti-Tone, she knew there is a possibility that everyone can play it and she tested the plate herself several times already. She knew it works. She knew the plate creates anti-Tone when the user has Intent. You yourself quoted the fact that she was a bit surprised at the fact Raboniel could simply use it. The paragraphs you quoted Quote Navani kept her face impassive. Well, that answered one question. She’d wondered if the person playing the note needed the proper Intent to eject the Voidlight, but it seemed that creating the plate to align to her hummed tones was enough. So no, she did not know that plate creates anti-Tone on its own. Quote Most importantly, because of her experiments with Warlight, she knew anti-Tone is the most important step in discovery of anti-light, and thus it should be prevented from falling into Fused hands by all means. She did not know that. She could have assumed it, but there is a bit of a difference between merging and aligning two lights, and blanking one and turning it into its direct opposite. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: They weren't hidden when she handed them over to Raboniel... Yeah that is true and completly besides the point. You said she did not even try to hide her research, but she did. Handing over the notes after she knows they will be discovered anyway does not change that. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: You argued that Navani wanted to delay the unmaking of the Tower. Leaving notes hidden would be perfect for that, as it would take hours to find them and even more to actually create anti-Voidlight, giving the Sibling much more time. Navani knew how fixated Raboniel was on combining Voidlight with the opposite, and this would still happen - Navani would still have her assassination attempt. How would that delay umaking of Sibling? Do you think Raboniel would be searching for those notes herself? Her minions search, Raboniel can do whatever, like Unmake Sibling if the node is found (Navani does not know that Raboniel already found it and is waiting to use that knowledge). Quote But even better - don't give them that knowledge at all. She would still have the knowledge to save the Sibling, while Fused would be left with nothing. Don't give them the knowledge they will be looking for? Knowledge Raboniel suspects she posses, and can start using violence to get out of Navani? Don't forget that Raboniel already threatened Navani's scientist, and the Radians. If Navani stops cooperating, Raboniel will start calling in those bargaining chips. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: She was both trying to find a way to overwrite the tone but had an plausible explanation ready for Raboniel. That wasn't a random experiment. I never said it was random, just that she was using it to mask her true research, which she did as the quotes show. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Yes, that's the problem. And that loss was compensate by gaining the exact same knowledge, by saving the Tower and by awakening Sibling. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: If she sucessfully conseal the knowledge of anit-Tone she would still be able to push Voidlight from the Tower and stop Moash, as that was done by humming anti-Odium tone, not by anti-Voidlight. So again, how is she supposed to hide knowledge of anti-Tone, when she does not know that Fused guards heard her do something new and unnatural? Raboniel knew about something happening, and would not leave the room until she learned what it was. Navani had no way of concealing the knowledge of anti-Tone, because of the effect it has on Fused, effect she did not know about because to her it sounds exactly the same. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: No, she was outmatched and was the reason for the second node to get destroyed. That's not perfect. OK, so she failed in two things. Not bad. And what was she supposed to do regarding the nodes? She knows Fused are searching for them, and there is far more of them. The only fool proof method of protecting the nodes is to get to them first. Both her failures came about because she did not just sit and wait, in situation where sitting and waiting can lose them war. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Another point is that Navani actually figured out that Raboniel lied to her about wanting to kill Odium but still pursued to discover anti-light without thinking of what was the real reason Raboniel wanted to create anti-light. That's a huge red flag as now Navani knew Raboniel wanted anti-light for malicious intent but didn't think about consequences at all. Navani can't be excused by "being manipulated by Raboniel" as she knew it and did nothing. RoW ch 89: So earlier you critice Navani for trusting Raboniel that she wants to kill Odium, and now you criticize her for figuring it out? And she did something, she was hiding her reaserch from the Fused. As stated multiple times. She was only discovered because of effect no one knew about until it happened. Edited August 31, 2023 by therunner 1
alder24 Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 6 minutes ago, therunner said: She knew the plate creates anti-Tone when the user has Intent. You yourself quoted the fact that she was a bit surprised at the fact Raboniel could simply use it. The paragraphs you quoted Quote Navani kept her face impassive. Well, that answered one question. She’d wondered if the person playing the note needed the proper Intent to eject the Voidlight, but it seemed that creating the plate to align to her hummed tones was enough. So no, she did not know that plate creates anti-Tone on its own. I said she knew there is a possibility for plates working with everybody. She wasn't surprised, she knew there were two outcomes and wondered which one was correct. She knew Raboniel might be able to play and get anti-tone. And there is a huge argument for that as plates were mathematically opposite to Odium tone, they weren’t the same. 8 minutes ago, therunner said: She did not know that. She could have assumed it, but there is a bit of a difference between merging and aligning two lights, and blanking one and turning it into its direct opposite. Merging lights is made by humming proper tones and slowly aligning and changing them until reaching harmony. Without proper tones, you can't merge lights. Even Honor and Odium plates Raboniel gave Navani weren't pure tones of them, but slightly changed to fit this harmony better. She knew anti-tone is the key. She had very strong reasons to believe that anti-tone is that important and without it she wouldn't be able to create anit-light. 11 minutes ago, therunner said: Yeah that is true and completly besides the point. No because that's my whole point.... 11 minutes ago, therunner said: How would that delay umaking of Sibling? Do you think Raboniel would be searching for those notes herself? Her minions search, Raboniel can do whatever, like Unmake Sibling if the node is found (Navani does not know that Raboniel already found it and is waiting to use that knowledge). No Raboniel would be looking at Navani's equipment and experiments looking for more clues. 12 minutes ago, therunner said: Don't give them the knowledge they will be looking for? Knowledge Raboniel suspects she posses, and can start using violence to get out of Navani? Which I've explained later - conceal the knowledge before Raboniel came. Burn notes, change the plate, predent no anti-tone was made - Raboniel wouldn't know Navani made a breakthrough, she would only know she was playing with plates and lights making false notes but nothing more. So simple. 16 minutes ago, therunner said: I never said it was random, just that she was using it to mask her true research, which she did as the quotes show. And I've only pointed out that this other research was her testing how to change the tone of lights. It was tied. 17 minutes ago, therunner said: And that loss was compensate by gaining the exact same knowledge, by saving the Tower and by awakening Sibling. No, nothing was compensated. She allowed Fused to gain access to this vital secret, and they lost a huge advantage in war. 18 minutes ago, therunner said: So again, how is she supposed to hide knowledge of anti-Tone, when she does not know that Fused guards heard her do something new and unnatural? By burning notes and cutting the plate!!!! She was preparing for Raboniel to come, trying to find excuses for her work, and like you said, hiding her work, knowing that Raboniel might discover what she was really doing. She knew how smart Raboniel was and she already failed to deceive Raboniel several times. Trying to do it again, after so many failed attempts, was just wrong. She should assume she was unable to hide the truth and destroy all evidence of her work. Raboniel knew there was a weird sound coming from the room and nothing more - this could be easily explained by Navani trying to find other ways to merge lights by playing on plates and making new plates. Even Navani admitted that this was a mistake. That she should have known better. Quote Navani breathed out quietly, closing her eyes. She’d racked her mind for ways to hide what she was doing, taking every precaution she could … but she should have known. She was at such a severe disadvantage, watched at all times, with Raboniel always nearby. [...] Perhaps Navani should have kept all of her discoveries in her head, but she’d been unable to resist writing them down. Ch 102: In the end, all Raboniel’s talk of working together had been a lie. Of course it had. Navani had known it would be. She’d planned for it, and tried to hide what she knew. But had she really expected that to work? She’d repeatedly confirmed to herself that she couldn’t outthink the Fused. They were ancient, capable beyond mortal understanding, beings outside of time and … And … [...] No, she thought, staring at the ceiling. No, don’t you dare take that distinction for yourself. If she’d been a scholar, she’d have understood the implications of her work. She was a child playing dress-up again. A farmer could stumble across a new plant in the wilderness. Did that make him a botanist? Yes, before you say that again, Navani needed to write things down - burn them after discovering anti-tones. She knew how important this discovery was because she tried to hide it from Raboniel. She knew Fused shouldn't get that, and yet she didn't do the most obvious things - destroy all evidence. She didn't do that because she wanted to continue her research, while she was fully aware that she couldn't hide it from Raboniel. She was proven this before. 28 minutes ago, therunner said: And what was she supposed to do regarding the nodes? She knows Fused are searching for them, and there is far more of them. The only fool proof method of protecting the nodes is to get to them first. I'm not criticizing her for the loss of the second node. 29 minutes ago, therunner said: So earlier you critice Navani for trusting Raboniel that she wants to kill Odium, and now you criticize her for figuring it out? I was, and still am, criticizing her for not thinking about consequences of her discovery and hidden motives of Raboniel to pursue that discovery. Earlier I was disappointed that she didn't make that connection because if she thought about it, it would be obvious. But I could excuse this with Raboniel's manipulations. But now that excuse is gone - she was fully aware that what she was trying to discover is a weapon Raboniel wanted and will be used against them and still jumped madly into it. She didn't make the most obvious things that would assure Fused wouldn't get the knowledge of anti-tones. She didn't even think about how Raboniel might use anti-light, which is the very first thing Navani should have done after this realization. She failed here massively, and now I can't excuse Navani not thinking about reasons why Raboniel wants anti-light, when she knew it wasn't for Shards. 1
Frustration Posted September 2, 2023 Posted September 2, 2023 4 hours ago, therunner said: Ah, so you should just give up if enemy has advantage. And no, if enemy has more knowledge you try to get that knowledge. You try to remove the edge. No, you reposition to either remove that advantage, or to give yourself one. If your opponent is smarter than you, punch them, if they are stronger than you outsmart them. If they are both outlast them. Never fight a superior opponent on equal ground, much less terrain that favors them. 4 hours ago, therunner said: She was slowing her down at the very beginning for several days. Then she was doing her best to hide her research. Her best was to immediately hand it over as soon as it was asked for. Forgive me if I'm not impressed. 4 hours ago, therunner said: So Navani does not do that, does not learn how to harmonize Light, as a result cannot help Sibling restore their Connection, and Tower falls. Great, as a result of Navani's actions Coalition lost the war. I am glad you were not in that position. You want to argue that she had no way of knowing that Kaladin would reach fourth ideal as a reason not to explore that option, but assume that somehow she knows she would find a way to help the Sibling? 4 hours ago, therunner said: And sure Navani can try to refuse. Then Raboniel either finds someone else to try it with, or more likely, threatens the scientists or Radiants until Navani complies. And I would respect her for that. It would at least show some backbone rather than brain dead obedience. 4 hours ago, therunner said: Ah, free will of prisoner when faced with someone who repeatedly threatened her subordinates and people in her charge. Raboniel read the notes, if there are speculations on making anti-Light, Navani has very little maneuvering room to mislead her. As Alder has said many times before: Destroy the notes. And here's a thought: maybe don't experiment with the anti-tones at all? It was the patterns in the sands that even got her to think along that direction, which Raboniel didn't even look at. If Navani actually wanted to help the Sibling she should have been experimenting with Towerlight, rather than trying to make Anti-Tones. 4 hours ago, therunner said: Navani in that very sequence says to Raboniel that she cannot trust her. Well obviously that didn't stop Navani from immediately doing that. 4 hours ago, therunner said: Raboniel has shown herself to be willing to use violence to achieve her goals. What do you think will happen once Navani refuses, and won't budge? Raboniel will kill her subordinates, first one, then more. Then she can move to start killing Radiants. So obviously whatever she wants is worth a lot more to her than anything the scientists could provide, or than the potential winning of the war that would occur from just killing all the radiants right then. So maybe think to yourself: "It would be really bad if she got whatever she is after" and don't give it to her. 4 hours ago, therunner said: Not at all. Anti-Light was her primary interest, but she was clearly interest in science of fabrials in general and in Light science as well. Um, no not really. She might like fabrials, but it is very obvious throughout the entire book that the only thing she really wants to find some way to destroy Stormlight and Voidlight. 4 hours ago, therunner said: It's what she says, and what she thinks throughout the entire book. She acknowledges early on that breaking the garnets will free the Radiants. The room she is in is just down the hall from the pillar. Get a spike and a hammer, tell the Sibling to drop the shield, run down the hall and break the garnets. Ten thousand times more reliable than hoping that somehow you can learn enough from a Fused to help the Sibling while also not giving them exactly what they want. 4 hours ago, therunner said: You mean like she was informing Kaladin? Yeah, she did what she should there. The second part of that is to not mess everything else up, and she does that entirely wrong. 4 hours ago, therunner said: And using the fact she was working with Raboniel to supply Kaladin with crucial equipment without which Kaladin could do exactly nothing? She gave him the glove and the gems with voidspren that can work in Tower. She cannot get that without working with Raboniel. And Kaladin can do neither of the things you propose. It is kinda important that they cannot get message out (so no Chiri Chiri) and that Kaladin barely is able to fight. Step 1: Kaladin goes to the edge of the tower Step 2: He jumps Step 3: He falls until he exits the range of the suppressor Step 4: Fly to inform Dalinar, and get Chiri Chiri. You know, what he suggested doing. 4 hours ago, therunner said: Can they? Suppresor is not add-on but original part of Sibling. Something could be probably replicated but it would not be as strong. It is explicitly mentioned that the metal and crystals are physical body, so you suggest that Radiants cripple Sibling. So were the lifts but those were easily replaced. 4 hours ago, therunner said: And the protection it provides is not 'meager', in case you forget, once Sibling awakens all Fused are powerless (Deepest One get stuck in stone), Odium's influence on Moash is completely negated (so it is enough to block effects of Shard at least to some extent) and in the past was enough to repel Unmade. 'Meager' sure. 1. I did not say the protection it could provide, only the protection it was providing, which is basically just preventing the masked ones from hiding themselves. 2. You literally a second later try to argue that Navani had no way to know that Kaladin would swear the fourth ideal, but somehow she knows exactly how the suppressor works? 4 hours ago, therunner said: You mean someone who knows that Chiri-Chiri is not in the Tower? And someone who has no way of communicating with the outside world? Nor way to get someone inside the Tower? Kaladin can get in and out. 4 hours ago, therunner said: But can somehow affect the stone as well, otherwise it would not form halls, rooms, moveable doors, etc. The Sibling can move the doors, not make them, and only when there are gemstones and Stormlight inside. 4 hours ago, therunner said: Stab them, then pressure differential. Glass daggers for example. That's not how that works, investiture doesn't flow along glass. And the arnyst method requires smaller and more importantly EMPTY gemstones. Fused Gemhearts are full, you won't be able to get any anti-voidlight to enter. Cracking the Fused gemstone would simply kill them, and allow them to return to Braize. So that will not work. 4 hours ago, therunner said: Try realigning Stormlight into anti-Voidlight? If in vacuum the Investiture is truly Rhytm-less it should work. Stormlight by nature stops other Tones dead. They could be realigned to match the anti-tone because it's the same waveform, but other Tones wouldn't work. 4 hours ago, therunner said: So what is the guarantee that the Fused are actually insane, and not Raboniel 'insane'? They straight up say that they get more insane as they die and are reborn. 4 hours ago, therunner said: No, anti-light is objectively more useful than Nightblood, because unlike Nightblood it can be replicated. By the enemy! Nightblood only the radiants have, that is a huge leg up over having multiple but both sides having them, even if somehow the coalition can make more, which I doubt for reasons stated above. 5 hours ago, therunner said: So there are fewer Radiants then Fused, not spren like you said. because your original point was this : Not Radiants, spren. Ah yes I was unaware we were counting the spren who specifically were not aligned with the coalition. Here's what should have happened Raboniel: "Work for me or do laundry" Navani: "Laundry" Even if Raboniel doesn't take no for an answer, calling her bluff gives you more arguments for not trusting her, which can be used in the right situation. Later: Navani: "Kaladin I need you to leave the tower and go inform Dalinar and get a Larkin from Theylan City" Kaladin: "Got it." Later: Kaladn: "I'm back, now what?" Navani: "Send her down" Navani then has the Sibling drop the shield around the pillar when Chiri Chiri gets close, Chiri Chiri consumes enough Voidlight to undo the Corruption of the suppressor, the Sibling reactivates the Shield, the Radiants wake up, and the coalition gets an unmitigated victory.
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