Marsh and Unkeyed Dor

[Trusk'our he/him]

Hey guys, I'm back! Sorry for ghosting you (to anybody who cares), I had some stuff going on that took my attention away from the 17th Shard for a while, but hopefully I will be able to come back now, though it may be more infrequent.

In any case, I've had a LOT of ideas or questions that I wanted to post, but couldn't.

Here's one of the big ones; we saw in TLM that Marsh was running low on Atium, causing him to start feeling the effects of old age which would eventually kill him. However, what if he had been given some Unkeyed Dor instead? After all, it can be used to fuel any Invested power (as far as we've seen), so why couldn't he use some to fuel his F-Atium youth?

Did Kelsier just not think of helping his brother out with the Dor, or did Marsh just keep it a secret? I suppose that it could be that Hemalurgic spikes can't use Unkeyed Investiture, but that seems unlikely to me since it can be used by anybody with an Invested power, and even if Identity contamination somehow does managed to mess with that function, Marsh specifically can bypass Hemalurgy's new limitations.

What are your thoughts everyone? I'm dying to hear.

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Here's one of the big ones; we saw in TLM that Marsh was running low on Atium, causing him to start feeling the effects of old age which would eventually kill him. However, what if he had been given some Unkeyed Dor instead? After all, it can be used to fuel any Invested power (as far as we've seen), so why couldn't he use some to fuel his F-Atium youth?

Purified Dor can usually be used to fuel Kinetic Investiture. Marsh needs physical Era 1 Atium to turn into metal minds for storage. Since Compounding is, itself, a trick of the system I would guess even if there is a way to use Dor for that, it would be very difficult to accomplish.

 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Purified Dor can usually be used to fuel Kinetic Investiture. Marsh needs physical Era 1 Atium to turn into metal minds for storage. Since Compounding is, itself, a trick of the system I would guess even if there is a way to use Dor for that, it would be very difficult to accomplish.

How so? Purified Dor just seems to use whatever Invested power has been "coded" into the practitioner's Spiritweb to direct it, hence the reason why any Misting can use their powers but not others, or why Moonlight could Forge, or Twinsoul create a crystal mech suit.

Marsh has a spike that grants him the ability to use F-Atium, so shouldn't that be enough to direct the Investiture?

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

How so? Purified Dor just seems to use whatever Invested power has been "coded" into the practitioner's Spiritweb to direct it, hence the reason why any Misting can use their powers but not others, or why Moonlight could Forge, or Twinsoul create a crystal mech suit.

Marsh has a spike that grants him the ability to use F-Atium, so shouldn't that be enough to direct the Investiture?

Purifies Dor allows somebody to use it for Kinetic investiture, rather than whatever their normal source of fuel would be. The Kinetic portion of Atium Age Compounding - which is burning Atium that has a feruchemical storage - changing the key that releases invetiture from releasing it's Allomantic Kinetic Effect to releasing it's Feruchemical Effect instead. however - nobody (including Marsh) has a SpiritWeb Connection that says "Burn Atium to gain youth." It's a hack. 

If Marsh tried "burning" purified Dor as Atium, he would see Atium Shadows. Storing Age is not Kinetic Investiture so marsh would have to have some way to key the Purified Dor to himself, then find some way to trick the Feruchemy into sotring the Dor instead of his normal Age. Even then, it doesn;thelp because he was running out of Atium to Burn as a Feruchemical Storage. 

Maybe in the future they could find a way to convert purified Dor into a Physical Godmetal - but even then it ight not work because Era 1 Atium is "tainted" with Electrum.

Hope that helps

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Hey guys, I'm back! Sorry for ghosting you (to anybody who cares), I had some stuff going on that took my attention away from the 17th Shard for a while, but hopefully I will be able to come back now, though it may be more infrequent.

Glad to have you back!

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Here's one of the big ones; we saw in TLM that Marsh was running low on Atium, causing him to start feeling the effects of old age which would eventually kill him. However, what if he had been given some Unkeyed Dor instead? After all, it can be used to fuel any Invested power (as far as we've seen), so why couldn't he use some to fuel his F-Atium youth?

Yes:

Spoiler

Questioner

So you said that different Investitures from different worlds can fuel different Investitures, right? Would that mean that you could potentially use Stormlight for Allomancy and/or Feruchemy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a little harder with the Metallic Arts than, for instance, Nightblood is the easiest example. He can just feed on whatever Investiture is around.

[...]

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Did Kelsier just not think of helping his brother out with the Dor, or did Marsh just keep it a secret? I suppose that it could be that Hemalurgic spikes can't use Unkeyed Investiture, but that seems unlikely to me since it can be used by anybody with an Invested power, and even if Identity contamination somehow does managed to mess with that function, Marsh specifically can bypass Hemalurgy's new limitations.

Either he doesn't know that's possible with Feruchemy or there are some obstacles that prevent it from working that easily - like maybe you need to key it to the specific metal/attribute?

[therunner he/him]

I think that Unkeyed Dor won't be able to power any effects that result from Godmetals.

After all, that would imply that any Misting could use Unkeyed Dor as alloy of their metal + Lerasium to increase their strength, which is rather odd.

Or even worse, anyone could burn Unkeyed Dor as Lerasium to turn into Mistborn, EDIT: since anyone can burn any Godmetal (possibly conditional on having Connection to the Shard in question)

So based on that, I think Unkeyed Dor can be used solely to replicate non-Godmetal uses of given Invested Art, because Godmetal effects are powered by the Keyed Investiture of the Godmetal, which I think would not be replicable.

Though how Unkeyed Dor interacts with Feruchemy is anyone's guess. I would say it does not actually do anything, since Feruchemist must 'tap' something, so perhaps it would have to be turned into unkeyed Godmetal?

Edited August 25, 2023 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

 

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Purifies Dor allows somebody to use it for Kinetic investiture, rather than whatever their normal source of fuel would be. The Kinetic portion of Atium Age Compounding - which is burning Atium that has a feruchemical storage - changing the key that releases invetiture from releasing it's Allomantic Kinetic Effect to releasing it's Feruchemical Effect instead. however - nobody (including Marsh) has a SpiritWeb Connection that says "Burn Atium to gain youth." It's a hack. 

If Marsh tried "burning" purified Dor as Atium, he would see Atium Shadows. Storing Age is not Kinetic Investiture so marsh would have to have some way to key the Purified Dor to himself, then find some way to trick the Feruchemy into sotring the Dor instead of his normal Age. Even then, it doesn;thelp because he was running out of Atium to Burn as a Feruchemical Storage. 

I don't think that Marsh would need to Compound the Dor to get youthfulness- the Dor already shapes itself to the powers available to the wielder, so Compounding is not necessary. 

51 minutes ago, therunner said:

Though how Unkeyed Dor interacts with Feruchemy is anyone's guess. I would say it does not actually do anything, since Feruchemist must 'tap' something, so perhaps it would have to be turned into unkeyed Godmetal?

I'm hesitant to believe that Feruchemy couldn't use purified Investiture to fuel itself since it already basically does that with Compounding. But perhaps purified Investiture is different and I'm jumping to conclusions. After all, Hemalurgy suddenly has new limitations, so that sort of thing is hardly out of the question.

51 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think that Unkeyed Dor won't be able to power any effects that result from Godmetals.

After all, that would imply that any Misting could use Unkeyed Dor as alloy of their metal + Lerasium to increase their strength, which is rather odd.

Or even worse, anyone could burn Unkeyed Dor as Lerasium to turn into Mistborn, EDIT: since anyone can burn any Godmetal (possibly conditional on having Connection to the Shard in question)

So based on that, I think Unkeyed Dor can be used solely to replicate non-Godmetal uses of given Invested Art, because Godmetal effects are powered by the Keyed Investiture of the Godmetal, which I think would not be replicable.

.An interesting takeaway. I had not considered the Lerasium issue, but I don't know that it would be possible to use Unkeyed Investiture to make someone a Mistborn without another power to duplicate.

The way I see it, the Unkeyed Investiture picks up on the powers ingrained in the person who wields it- this is why Marasi couldn't use all the powers of a Mistborn, even when she was filled to the brim with Investiture in TLM.

Lerasium (and possibly Atium, depending on how effective the retcon is) seem to provide both the ability to use their powers as well as the fuel itself; a non-Metalborn can burn Lerasium and gain Allomancy by Connecting to Preservation and having specific powers encoded into their Spiritweb.

Unkeyed Dor couldn't replicate this, as there isn't anything to pick up, no power to emulate- they don't have the power to increase their Connection to Preservation in their Spiritweb naturally, as that is provided by the Lerasium itself.

However, I don't think it would be impossible to replicate the effects of Lerasium or other Godmetals with Unkeyed Dor or some other Investiture if you knew the "code" of the Investiture. That's definitely a guess though, so take it with a grain of salt.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Glad to have you back!

Thanks! 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Frustration he/him]

Dor can only be used as a fuel source, the ability it powers must be one the user already has access to.

A Mistborn could use it in place of any of the base metals, but a misting could only power their one metal.

 

Atium provides its own power when used, so think of it like a medallion. No one could use for to fuel it as it isn't their own power.

[therunner he/him]

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

The way I see it, the Unkeyed Investiture picks up on the powers ingrained in the person who wields it- this is why Marasi couldn't use all the powers of a Mistborn, even when she was filled to the brim with Investiture in TLM.

Well yeah, but every person does have ingrained ability to burn Godmetals.
So for some reason Unkeyed Investiture cannot be used as substitute there.

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Lerasium (and possibly Atium, depending on how effective the retcon is) seem to provide both the ability to use their powers as well as the fuel itself; a non-Metalborn can burn Lerasium and gain Allomancy by Connecting to Preservation and having specific powers encoded into their Spiritweb.

Unkeyed Dor couldn't replicate this, as there isn't anything to pick up, no power to emulate- they don't have the power to increase their Connection to Preservation in their Spiritweb naturally, as that is provided by the Lerasium itself.

Could be?
Honestly my thoughts on this are not very clear, but this does sound similar to what I meant, i.e. there is something inherent to the Keyed Investiture which is used when using it (or its alloys). And this something cannot be emulated by Unkeyed Investiture.

I'll try to summarize my thought and compare/contrast regular allomancy, compounding and powering by Investiture directly:

In Allomancy I would say it is that usual effect is:

• Burn metal
• This lets you draw on Kinetic Investiture from SR
• This Investiture is shaped into effect based on metal+spiritweb configuration of powers? (the 'nozzle')

This applies to regular metals, for Godmetals (and alloys) I would say that 2nd and 3rd steps are changed, the Investiture is provided directly from the metal, and more importantly, so is the effect of the Investiture.

In compounding I would guess it is as follows

• Burn Metalmind with proper Intent
• This lets you draw on Kinetic Investiture from SR (same as regular allomancy)
• This Investiture is shaped into effect based on metal+Investiture.

So in this way Compounding acts a bit like burning Godmetals, but only in that effect is shaped by metal, not by inherent power.

When fueling by Kinetic Investiture, you would be omitting first step, and using directly Kinetic Investiture in PR. Shaping of the Investiture into effect would be still happening along what is encoded in spiritweb, providing the nozzle.

If it works broadly along those lines, then Godmetal (and alloys) effects would not be replicable (since you cannot natively shape Investiture in that way), and nor would be Compounding (for the same reason).

Though what I write above is basically wild-mass guess

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

However, I don't think it would be impossible to replicate the effects of Lerasium or other Godmetals with Unkeyed Dor or some other Investiture if you knew the "code" of the Investiture. That's definitely a guess though, so take it with a grain of salt.

On that I agree up to a point, but I think it would require you to be able to manipulate many aspects of Realmatics mechanically, or have access to Invested Art.
E.g. I think Elantrian could plausibly replicate something like that, and so could Unchained Bondsmith (possibly working in concert with Sja-Anat or someone who can touch spiritweb more directly).

Without those ways of manipulating Realmatics, I don't think you could use it. And it is possible that even with it, I think a lot of effects will be next to impossible to replicate (e.g. if it was possible 'easily' it raises questions like, why are not all Elantrians also Mistborn?)

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I'm hesitant to believe that Feruchemy couldn't use purified Investiture to fuel itself since it already basically does that with Compounding. But perhaps purified Investiture is different and I'm jumping to conclusions. After all, Hemalurgy suddenly has new limitations, so that sort of thing is hardly out of the question.

Well, Feruchemy does not exactly use Investiture to power itself, not even in Compounding.
Technically, burning Metalmind provides you with a lot of particular attribute, which then you can store as usual with Feruchemy.

The Investiture comes in only in the Allomancy part of Compounding, not the Feruchemy part, which works still the same (just suddenly you have a lot more attribute to store than usual).

So for that, I think if Unkeyed Investiture is to be used in Feruchemy it either has to be in solid form, or it has to be stored in Metalmind to allow it to be tapped.

Edited August 26, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

@therunner brought up great points, that makes a lot of sense. I think you could use pure Dor to fuel F-Atium if you first key it to the attribute of youthfulness.

[Frustration he/him]

11 hours ago, therunner said:

Well yeah, but every person does have ingrained ability to burn Godmetals.
So for some reason Unkeyed Investiture cannot be used as substitute there.

I think you have causation mixed up there.

People don't have an ingrained ability to burn shardmetals, the nature of Shardmetals allows them to be burned by anyone.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I think you have causation mixed up there.

People don't have an ingrained ability to burn shardmetals, the nature of Shardmetals allows them to be burned by anyone.

That is saying the same thing, just differently.

Any person when ingesting Godmetal can burn it, hence they have innate ability to do so.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

That is saying the same thing, just differently.

Any person when ingesting Godmetal can burn it, hence they have innate ability to do so.

Not really.

Unlike other metals there is no part of their soul that says 'you can burn this'.

Rather the metal itself says 'you can burn me'

[therunner he/him]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not really.

Unlike other metals there is no part of their soul that says 'you can burn this'.

Rather the metal itself says 'you can burn me'

And do you have a source for that?
Because as far as I know, we don't have any information that says that.
The only WoB I can find is this one
 

Quote

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.
General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

Which does not say that it is because of nature of godmetals, only that non-allomancers can burn only godmetals.

Since we know that ability to burn regular metals is part of spiritweb, it seems reasonable to me to assume that ability to burn godmetals is natural part of everyone's spiritwebs. After all, Invested Art typically take advantage of pre-existing underlying mechanisms.

Edited August 27, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

Tbf we still don't know which "anybody" Brandon meant when he said "god metals should be burnable by anybody" - every Allomancer, every Scadrian (Atium and Lerasium) or everybody in Cosmere? There are WoBs that say Mistborn won't be able to burn a Shardblade because he lacks ties to it, or that it would be very hard, or that Mistborn burning Lerasium would have a different effect than granting Allomancy. To me it seems that only those connected to a Shard can burn its god metal, or even only Allomancers of any type can do it (he plans to make every Misting able to burn Atium in movies). I think it's very likely that the ability to burn god metals comes from a person and his connections, not from a god metal itself.

Spoiler

Questioner

Can an Allomancer burn any god metal? Or is it specifically Preservation and Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually a RAFO. There's some funkyness going on there.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

If a Mistborn were to burn a piece of a Shardblade, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

This would be hard to make happen, but it would be possible. A Shardblade is going to act as, basically, an alloy of the god metal of Honor and so  what would it do? RAFO, but it is possible and it would do something. It would not be inert. It would be Allomanticaly viable.

Footnote: This question was also addressed here.
Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Joe ST

Can a Misting burn the god-metal alloys of their metal? If not, do the god-metals even 'exist' if there are no full Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

There are metals which exist that any Allomancer can burn, regardless of their own orientation.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

Spoiler

[...]

meh84f

The bit about atium is a bit confusing. The Ventures are going to have the Atium stash? Not the stash that we don’t find until the end I’m assuming? So it’ll be a stash but much smaller than expected?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off.

So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.)

Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form.

[...]

General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020)

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

On 8/27/2023 at 0:37 AM, therunner said:

And do you have a source for that?
Because as far as I know, we don't have any information that says that.
The only WoB I can find is this one
 

Which does not say that it is because of nature of godmetals, only that non-allomancers can burn only godmetals.

Since we know that ability to burn regular metals is part of spiritweb, it seems reasonable to me to assume that ability to burn godmetals is natural part of everyone's spiritwebs. After all, Invested Art typically take advantage of pre-existing underlying mechanisms.

Because then you could steal the ability to burn it, which not only would that not make sense but it begs the question of what happens when you have twice the normal ability to burn Lerasium.

On 8/27/2023 at 6:16 AM, alder24 said:

Tbf we still don't know which "anybody" Brandon meant when he said "god metals should be burnable by anybody" - every Allomancer, every Scadrian (Atium and Lerasium) or everybody in Cosmere? There are WoBs that say Mistborn won't be able to burn a Shardblade because he lacks ties to it, or that it would be very hard, or that Mistborn burning Lerasium would have a different effect than granting Allomancy. To me it seems that only those connected to a Shard can burn its god metal, or even only Allomancers of any type can do it (he plans to make every Misting able to burn Atium in movies). I think it's very likely that the ability to burn god metals comes from a person and his connections, not from a god metal itself.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Can an Allomancer burn any god metal? Or is it specifically Preservation and Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually a RAFO. There's some funkyness going on there.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If a Mistborn were to burn a piece of a Shardblade, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

This would be hard to make happen, but it would be possible. A Shardblade is going to act as, basically, an alloy of the god metal of Honor and so  what would it do? RAFO, but it is possible and it would do something. It would not be inert. It would be Allomanticaly viable.

Footnote: This question was also addressed here.
Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Joe ST

Can a Misting burn the god-metal alloys of their metal? If not, do the god-metals even 'exist' if there are no full Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

There are metals which exist that any Allomancer can burn, regardless of their own orientation.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

[...]

meh84f

The bit about atium is a bit confusing. The Ventures are going to have the Atium stash? Not the stash that we don’t find until the end I’m assuming? So it’ll be a stash but much smaller than expected?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off.

So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.)

Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form.

[...]

General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020)

 

But anyone can burn Lerasium, not just people Connected to Preservation as seen by Hoid.

[therunner he/him]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because then you could steal the ability to burn it, which not only would that not make sense but it begs the question of what happens when you have twice the normal ability to burn Lerasium.

Then perhaps the spike would not result in doubled ability, this being simple 'toggle' on soul.
Feruchemy also does not get much from spikes, and yet it can be stolen. So not every ability is nicely additive like allomancy.

Edit: Or the person simply gets more efficient, i.e. they get the same effect with less Godmetal. I.e. person with spike would need ~1/2 the Lerasium to become Mistborn of given strength compared to someone without spike.
Similarly how Radiants get more efficient with usage of Stormlight.

Edited August 28, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

10 minutes ago, therunner said:

Then perhaps the spike would not result in doubled ability, this being simple 'toggle' on soul.
Feruchemy also does not get much from spikes, and yet it can be stolen. So not every ability is nicely additive like allomancy.

Edit: Or the person simply gets more efficient, i.e. they get the same effect with less Godmetal. I.e. person with spike would need ~1/2 the Lerasium to become Mistborn of given strength compared to someone without spike.
Similarly how Radiants get more efficient with usage of Stormlight.

Alright, I don't like that explanation, but I guess it works.

 

There's another point however, with all the metals the average person could burn they would all require a huge amount of Investiture.

[therunner he/him]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Alright, I don't like that explanation, but I guess it works.

Fair enough, I am not exactly 100% confident in it either. We'll see eventually.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There's another point however, with all the metals the average person could burn they would all require a huge amount of Investiture.

What do you mean?

[Frustration he/him]

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

What do you mean?

As we see with Hemalurgy the ability to burn each metal requires a piece of Investiture. If each person had the ability to burn all of the shard metals they would need a substantial amount of Investiture dedicated to that purpose.

[therunner he/him]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

As we see with Hemalurgy the ability to burn each metal requires a piece of Investiture. If each person had the ability to burn all of the shard metals they would need a substantial amount of Investiture dedicated to that purpose.

Why?
There is no evidence that some powers require larger piece of Investiture than others. Spiritwebs are from Spiritual Realm, and there is no time or space there, so in a sense everything is the same size.

You can fit entire soul in spike or gem, you can fit entire Allomancy in one spike, you can fit single Allomantic power in one spike. Why would you not be able to fit 'burn Godmetal' in one spike?

And does not have to be 'Burn ...

1. ', the power can be simply 'Ability to burn Solid Investiture'.

[Frustration he/him]

13 hours ago, therunner said:

Why?
There is no evidence that some powers require larger piece of Investiture than others. Spiritwebs are from Spiritual Realm, and there is no time or space there, so in a sense everything is the same size.

You can fit entire soul in spike or gem, you can fit entire Allomancy in one spike, you can fit single Allomantic power in one spike. Why would you not be able to fit 'burn Godmetal' in one spike?

And does not have to be 'Burn ...

1. ', the power can be simply 'Ability to burn Solid Investiture'.

Each ability has it's own part of the spiritwebs dedicated to that purpose.

You CAN take the ability to burn all of the mental metals with one spike, but that is not the default. Each metal requires a set of Investiture dedicated to it. The more metals you can burn the more Innate Investiture you would need.

[therunner he/him]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Each ability has it's own part of the spiritwebs dedicated to that purpose.

You CAN take the ability to burn all of the mental metals with one spike, but that is not the default. Each metal requires a set of Investiture dedicated to it. The more metals you can burn the more Innate Investiture you would need.

Yes, and I am saying that I think there is just a single ability 'Burn Godmetal'. Not burn Lerasium, burn Lerasium + Atium etc.

Spiritwebs won't suddenly grow new part when new Godmetal (like Harmonium) emerges, that makes no sense. So the only way anyone can burn any Godmetal works is if  'Burn Godmetal' is single ability that does not care about what specific metal or alloy it is.

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration he/him]

39 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yes, and I am saying that I think there is just a single ability 'Burn Godmetal'. Not burn Lerasium, burn Lerasium + Atium etc.

Spiritwebs won't suddenly grow new part when new Godmetal (like Harmonium) emerges, that makes no sense. So the only way anyone can burn any Godmetal works is if  'Burn Godmetal' is single ability that does not care about what specific metal or alloy it is.
 

Then why can anyone burn lerasium but you need a specific Connection to Honor to burn Tanavastium?

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Then why can anyone burn lerasium but you need a specific Connection to Honor to burn Tanavastium?

We don't know if that WoB still holds, later on he simply says that Mistborn could burn pieces of Shardblade with no caveats, so there is conflicting information.

And even then, the WoB says that you need valid Connection to the Shard to burn their Godmetal, not just Tanavastium. So even if it holds, it is not argument against my theory.

Edited August 30, 2023 by therunner