odium Odium’s precense at the Tower

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

In RoW, the fused came up with and implemented a brilliant move to take the tower while it was not under it’s normal defense system that would have made it impossible to take, because it would have taken away their surges while they are in the vicinity. But they mention how they have never been able to take the Tower in the past, and that it was a huge war advantage and a huge weakening to the randiants and humans. The tower was a central place to the humans and a very strategic advantage. So when the fused took it, it was really good for them.

So why don’t they take it again? They can’t go there because the defense would take away their powers. But what if they used there greatest weapon. Odium.

When Odium takes Dalinar into a vision, the stormfather says that he was vastly out-powered and that he was absolutely no match or challenger against Odium. The stormfather might also a cognitive shadow of Honor. If he is, that might give him a little more power than he normally would have too. So he would be about equal to or greater than the power of the Sibling.

So if Odium can crush the strormfather like that, why doesn’t he do the same thing ti the sibling. He could go himself to the tower, and overpower it’s defenses vecauee he is more powerful than the Sibling. After he does that, the rest of the fused could come in too.

Why doesn’t he use himself, who is the greatest most powerful weapon he has?

The only reason I think he might not, and this is Rayse, would be either that he would think it embarrassing or beneath him. I think that he would not let that stop him from winning the war though. Or that he would want to not risk himself. He might be a little paranoid. But again I don’t think that would really stop him as he is really confident. For Tarvangian, I think he would not be embarrassed as he would see it’s value. Also he probably would not see himself dying to the humans.

So why doesn’t he just use himself to overpower the tower?

[therunner he/him]

He probably cannot.

It seems that Odium (and Shards in general) must have some link to a being to have dominion over them.
E.g. Odium cannot just waltz to Kaladin's mind, he can only send him nightmares (possibly through Connection with Moash).

The only person Odium interacts with directly outside of his forces is Dalinar and Stormfather (if I recall right), which can be because they hold remnant of Honor, and Honor had bound Odium to Rosharan system. It is possible that however Honor bound Odium, also prohibits him from acting directly against Radiant forces. Alternatively, it could be the original agreement between Vessels after Shattering.

(There is also Odium interacting with Hoid, but Hoid is Hoid and sought Odium out, not the other way around).

[alder24]

6 hours ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

In RoW, the fused came up with and implemented a brilliant move to take the tower while it was not under it’s normal defense system that would have made it impossible to take, because it would have taken away their surges while they are in the vicinity. But they mention how they have never been able to take the Tower in the past, and that it was a huge war advantage and a huge weakening to the randiants and humans. The tower was a central place to the humans and a very strategic advantage. So when the fused took it, it was really good for them.

So why don’t they take it again? They can’t go there because the defense would take away their powers. But what if they used there greatest weapon. Odium.

When Odium takes Dalinar into a vision, the stormfather says that he was vastly out-powered and that he was absolutely no match or challenger against Odium. The stormfather might also a cognitive shadow of Honor. If he is, that might give him a little more power than he normally would have too. So he would be about equal to or greater than the power of the Sibling.

So if Odium can crush the strormfather like that, why doesn’t he do the same thing ti the sibling. He could go himself to the tower, and overpower it’s defenses vecauee he is more powerful than the Sibling. After he does that, the rest of the fused could come in too.

Why doesn’t he use himself, who is the greatest most powerful weapon he has?

The only reason I think he might not, and this is Rayse, would be either that he would think it embarrassing or beneath him. I think that he would not let that stop him from winning the war though. Or that he would want to not risk himself. He might be a little paranoid. But again I don’t think that would really stop him as he is really confident. For Tarvangian, I think he would not be embarrassed as he would see it’s value. Also he probably would not see himself dying to the humans.

So why doesn’t he just use himself to overpower the tower?

That won't work. Firstly pulling someone into a vision is different than influencing someone directly in PR. Even Odium needs to have a strong connection to bring someone into a vision. Secondly if Odium were to somehow physically manifest in the Tower, he would overwhelm the Sibling - but that would work only for him, every Fused attempting to enter the Tower would still be suppressed - just like Kaladin was able to break through Tower's defenses, while other Radiants weren't. But I highly doubt Odium would be able to do that. Shards are limited in what they can do, this is a direct intervention and would be opposed by Cultivation. Moreover he is trapped on Braize, his power is limited. The words "he could go himself to the Tower" are meaningless, he's a Shard, he's omnipresent, he already is in the Tower - but still is limited in his interactions, because he needed not only Everstorm but also an open window to talk to Taravangian. The Sibling in their weakened state was strong enough to limit Odium's influence, now it would be even harder for Odium. He is generally stronger, but also bounded. Bringing somebody into a vision is different than physically interacting with them.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

Ok that makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

[bmcclure7]

23 hours ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

In RoW, the fused came up with and implemented a brilliant move to take the tower while it was not under it’s normal defense system that would have made it impossible to take, because it would have taken away their surges while they are in the vicinity. But they mention how they have never been able to take the Tower in the past, and that it was a huge war advantage and a huge weakening to the randiants and humans. The tower was a central place to the humans and a very strategic advantage. So when the fused took it, it was really good for them.

So why don’t they take it again? They can’t go there because the defense would take away their powers. But what if they used there greatest weapon. Odium.

When Odium takes Dalinar into a vision, the stormfather says that he was vastly out-powered and that he was absolutely no match or challenger against Odium. The stormfather might also a cognitive shadow of Honor. If he is, that might give him a little more power than he normally would have too. So he would be about equal to or greater than the power of the Sibling.

So if Odium can crush the strormfather like that, why doesn’t he do the same thing ti the sibling. He could go himself to the tower, and overpower it’s defenses vecauee he is more powerful than the Sibling. After he does that, the rest of the fused could come in too.

Why doesn’t he use himself, who is the greatest most powerful weapon he has?

The only reason I think he might not, and this is Rayse, would be either that he would think it embarrassing or beneath him. I think that he would not let that stop him from winning the war though. Or that he would want to not risk himself. He might be a little paranoid. But again I don’t think that would really stop him as he is really confident. For Tarvangian, I think he would not be embarrassed as he would see it’s value. Also he probably would not see himself dying to the humans.

So why doesn’t he just use himself to overpower the tower?

1.  Because until recently honor was there and would probably have intervened to stop him.

 

2.  Because he is bound and that limits what he can do. He Implies he can't contact just anyone at least not without the help of the everstorm.

Edited August 22, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Endnighthazer]

What everyone else said, plus also it's possible doing a direct attack like that might open him up to another Shard attacking. Although seeing as we don't know their agreements its hard to know

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Raboniel tells Navani that they have taken the tower of few times in the past, but were never able to hold it. So there is already precedent that it's not a great idea. The only reason they went for it this time, is what you said in the OP. They had a shot because the defenses were down.

[Hatman he/him]

On 8/21/2023 at 3:33 AM, therunner said:

He probably cannot.

It seems that Odium (and Shards in general) must have some link to a being to have dominion over them.
E.g. Odium cannot just waltz to Kaladin's mind, he can only send him nightmares (possibly through Connection with Moash).

The only person Odium interacts with directly outside of his forces is Dalinar and Stormfather (if I recall right), which can be because they hold remnant of Honor, and Honor had bound Odium to Rosharan system. It is possible that however Honor bound Odium, also prohibits him from acting directly against Radiant forces. Alternatively, it could be the original agreement between Vessels after Shattering.

(There is also Odium interacting with Hoid, but Hoid is Hoid and sought Odium out, not the other way around).

I believe that Odium can appear to Dalinar not because of Dalinar's connection to Honor, but because of Dalinar's connection to Odium. 

[Shard_Blades he/him]

On 28/08/2023 at 5:15 AM, Hatman said:

I believe that Odium can appear to Dalinar not because of Dalinar's connection to Honor, but because of Dalinar's connection to Odium. 

Yes, that sounds like it would be correct. I think that because Dalinar is connected to Odium with the thrill, that's how Odium contacts with him. It may also be through his connection with the stormfather. Who knows? 

 

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Shard_Blades said:

Yes, that sounds like it would be correct. I think that because Dalinar is connected to Odium with the thrill, that's how Odium contacts with him. It may also be through his connection with the stormfather. Who knows? 

Dalinar has a strong connection to Odium, because Odium considered him to be his Champion and prepared him for this role over years. But this later changed as now Dalinar is the Champion of Honor who will fight against Odium - there is still a very strong connection between them because of that, and that's what Odium uses to create visions with Dalinar. RoW ch 111:

Quote

Ishar touched his hand to his own chest, creating a line of light between him and Dalinar. “I will take this bond to the Stormfather. I will bear it myself. I sense … something odd in you. A Connection to Odium. He sees you as … as the one who will fight against him. This cannot be right. I will take that Connection as well.”

RoW I-4:

Quote

Before Vyre reached the gates, however, he was taken into a vision. He materialized on a vast field of golden light. Odium was there, a hundred feet tall, seated on a throne. In the guise of a mighty Fused, majestic like a king should be.
Vyre walked closer and knelt. “You can take me without a storm now, Lord?”
OUR CONNECTION GROWS STRONGER, Odium said. I HAVEN’T NEEDED A STORM TO BRING YOU INTO A VISION FOR MONTHS NOW, VYRE. I USUALLY DO IT FOR TRADITION’S SAKE

 

[coolsnow7]

TLDR of this entire thread is that there are obviously a whole bunch of Shard mechanics we don’t know and a whole bunch more we don’t understand and it’s reasonable that as of the 4th book of a 10 book series in a universe with god knows how many books by the end that we won’t understand every unusual interaction.