Feruchemical gold via hemalurgy question.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

So this is based on a person who receives a gold spike for F gold.  

Say you are born blind.  Or born without a hand or whatever it may be.  A large birth defect.  

Now you have gone your entire life with that.  Say 15-20 years into it you get the ability to use Feruchemical gold whether by discovering latent ferring powers or by hemalurgy.  

Does this effect what your gold can heal?  

I believe that the gold would work similarly to stormlight healing in that it returns you to your spiritual ideal.  But we see kaladin who has internalized being blind and it doesn't work for his scars.  

Would a person who was born blind and lived that life for 20 years be able to heal their blindness with F gold if they jusy became a ferring?  

Would hemalurgically granted F gold work differently if it was taken from a person whos spiritual ideal was a seeing individual due to having that persons spirit web infused with your own?  

Side question...

Would a person born blind gifted a returns single blessing recieve sight or would it only heal injuries?  Say your body never grew eyes... weird for sure but for discussions sake.  We saw the god king get his tongue back but that was healing an injury.  Can the most powerful healing spell in the game make someone who was never born with eyes in the first place suddenly grow them and be able to see?  

[Werewolff Studios]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I believe that the gold would work similarly to stormlight healing in that it returns you to your spiritual ideal.  But we see kaladin who has internalized being blind and it doesn't work for his scars.  

Would a person who was born blind and lived that life for 20 years be able to heal their blindness with F gold if they jusy became a ferring?  

Most healing in the cosmere is based on restoring you to your spiritual ideal, but that restoration is filtered through the cognitive aspect. Kaladin (until ROW) saw his scars as part of himself, so they weren't healed. I imagine that healing from blindness would be the same - some individuals might heal, some might not; it depends on the individual and how they 'see' that part of themselves. Think of Renarin - his eyes healed to the point he didn't need glasses.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would hemalurgically granted F gold work differently if it was taken from a person whos spiritual ideal was a seeing individual due to having that persons spirit web infused with your own?  

I don't believe that's the case - I believe hemalurgy steals the ability to use the power, not the Identity associated with it. So you can now store healing in a metalmind, but you can't use the former Ferring's metalminds (though I could be wrong on this - please correct me if I am fellow Shardgoers)

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would a person born blind gifted a returns single blessing recieve sight or would it only heal injuries?  Say your body never grew eyes... weird for sure but for discussions sake.  We saw the god king get his tongue back but that was healing an injury.  Can the most powerful healing spell in the game make someone who was never born with eyes in the first place suddenly grow them and be able to see?  

Yes, I believe it could. We know that the gift of a Returned's Divine Breath is some of the strongest in the Cosmere. We also know that it's a 'giving' act (Endowment) and therefore partially based on the Returned's perception of the individual they are healing. The Divine Breath healing also goes deeper than some other magics - we know that Lightsong's sacrifice didn't only heal Susebron's tongue, but also gave him the knowledge of how to speak and how to use it to Awaken things. 

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

I don't believe that's the case - I believe hemalurgy steals the ability to use the power, not the Identity associated with it. So you can now store healing in a metalmind, but you can't use the former Ferring's metalminds (though I could be wrong on this - please correct me if I am fellow Shardgoers)

This is incorrect - the portion of the Spiritweb that has the ability also has a portion of the Identity that was attached to it. WoB:

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Lucadaw

If someone used Hemalurgy to take someones Feruchemical abilities would they be able to use that persons personal metalminds? Most relevantly perhaps to take that person's knowledge from their copperminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

 

Healing all major disabilties (at least partially) depends on if the person being healed consideres themselves disabled. WoB

Spoiler

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Questioner

So is Lopen able to regrow his arm because he didn't identify as being a one-armed Herdazian, even though he made all those jokes?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

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Rysn mentioned that she had approached a Radiant and was going to ask him to heal her legs, but by the time she'd gotten to him, it had been too long and they had become a part of her identity.

 

 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would a person born blind gifted a returns single blessing recieve sight or would it only heal injuries?  Say your body never grew eyes... weird for sure but for discussions sake.  We saw the god king get his tongue back but that was healing an injury.  Can the most powerful healing spell in the game make someone who was never born with eyes in the first place suddenly grow them and be able to see?  

8 hours ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Yes, I believe it could. We know that the gift of a Returned's Divine Breath is some of the strongest in the Cosmere. We also know that it's a 'giving' act (Endowment) and therefore partially based on the Returned's perception of the individual they are healing. The Divine Breath healing also goes deeper than some other magics - we know that Lightsong's sacrifice didn't only heal Susebron's tongue, but also gave him the knowledge of how to speak and how to use it to Awaken things. 

Apparently that's not the case - Divine Breath won't overwrite person's perception about himself - I don't like it, I feel like it should do more to be really special, but that's canon:

Spoiler

Questioner

Given Sanderson's Laws about limitations...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

What would you say are any spiritual, cognitive, and or physical limitations to a Returned's healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

That they can do it once.

Questioner

That they can do it once, and that's it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, right? The Returned get one heal and then they die. That's a pretty big limitation. Like you have to choose really well. However, what they can heal is bounded by cosmere limitations on healing, but it is a supercharged version.

Questioner

Okay. Could you define more cosmere limitations on healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Cosmere limitations on healing can be affected by your own perception.

Questioner

Okay. Cognitive stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Cognitive stuff. And so there's a part of that, and... But that's really-- cognitive interferes. And if your spirit is gone? Right? Cosmere healing, you know, if your spirit is passed on you just get a dead body even though you've healed it.

Questioner

So potentially Vasher, having a much greater cosmere knowledge than others could potentially have a much greater usage of that healing than regular--

Brandon Sanderson

Well the healing-- What I mean by that is yourself. You impose limits. So the person being healed can impose some limits on the healing working. It doesn't happen as often as I'm making it sound. But, you know-- why Kaladin's scars have not healed, right? So Kaladin being hit by a Returned would still not heal his scars. He's got a major hangup about those scars.

Footnote: The questioner seems to have been asking about cosmere healing in general for Returned, but Brandon focused on their ability to give up their Divine Breath to heal somebody else.
Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

Brandon Sanderson

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Kurkistan

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Kurkistan

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

Brandon Sanderson

You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track.

Kurkistan

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

Kurkistan

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

Kurkistan

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

Kurkistan

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes yes exactly.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would hemalurgically granted F gold work differently if it was taken from a person whos spiritual ideal was a seeing individual due to having that persons spirit web infused with your own?  

No, it would work the same as any other healing in Cosmere. Inquisitors don't change their appearance when they heal though their spikes - Marsh still looks like Marsh not like some Keeper from whom F-gold was taken. There is too little spiritual Identity taken with a spike to affect your healing. And perception is really important.

Spoiler

Questioner

I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things.

Brandon Sanderson

So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it.  The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self.  But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this.

I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense?  And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Apparently that's not the case - Divine Breath won't overwrite person's perception about himself - I don't like it, I feel like it should do more to be really special, but that's canon:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Given Sanderson's Laws about limitations...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

What would you say are any spiritual, cognitive, and or physical limitations to a Returned's healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

That they can do it once.

Questioner

That they can do it once, and that's it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, right? The Returned get one heal and then they die. That's a pretty big limitation. Like you have to choose really well. However, what they can heal is bounded by cosmere limitations on healing, but it is a supercharged version.

Questioner

Okay. Could you define more cosmere limitations on healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Cosmere limitations on healing can be affected by your own perception.

Questioner

Okay. Cognitive stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Cognitive stuff. And so there's a part of that, and... But that's really-- cognitive interferes. And if your spirit is gone? Right? Cosmere healing, you know, if your spirit is passed on you just get a dead body even though you've healed it.

Questioner

So potentially Vasher, having a much greater cosmere knowledge than others could potentially have a much greater usage of that healing than regular--

Brandon Sanderson

Well the healing-- What I mean by that is yourself. You impose limits. So the person being healed can impose some limits on the healing working. It doesn't happen as often as I'm making it sound. But, you know-- why Kaladin's scars have not healed, right? So Kaladin being hit by a Returned would still not heal his scars. He's got a major hangup about those scars.

Footnote: The questioner seems to have been asking about cosmere healing in general for Returned, but Brandon focused on their ability to give up their Divine Breath to heal somebody else.
Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kurkistan

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

Brandon Sanderson

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Kurkistan

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Kurkistan

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

Brandon Sanderson

You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track.

Kurkistan

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

Kurkistan

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

Kurkistan

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

Kurkistan

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes yes exactly.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

No, it would work the same as any other healing in Cosmere. Inquisitors don't change their appearance when they heal though their spikes - Marsh still looks like Marsh not like some Keeper from whom F-gold was taken. There is too little spiritual Identity taken with a spike to affect your healing. And perception is really important.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things.

Brandon Sanderson

So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it.  The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self.  But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this.

I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense?  And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

It may not be that this is beyond the capacity for a Divine Breath's sacrifice, it could simply be where Platonic Ideal healing methods end and things like ReSealing or Soulcasting take over, sine they are making modifications at the cognitive and/or physical levels instead of reaching out top the Spiritual blueprint. Also Re. Divine Breaths being special, they can affect whole crowds, so there's that.  But they are capable of more than just Healing once they figure out how, and as a literal Splinter and 5000-ish breath's worth, it's one of the highest power unit's of Investiture on the field.  

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Questioner

When you transfer divine Breath, is it possible to have it result in something other than healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Lots of things are possible. Let's just say that that is not something people know how to do, and they have tried to do something else.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

 

On the other hand, there is a sliding scale to Spritual Healing too.  Radiant Healing can do things Regrowth and even Honorblade healing cannot, because of the way they are infusing their spiritweb more directly and with an increasingly strong and efficient Bond.   On the other side, anything external starts getting two people's Perception in the mix (three if a spren is involved), so I could see how that would muddy the waters and limit the effects somewhat.  

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Questioner

A character in The Stormlight Archive who eventually was able to heal of a wound. An old wound, and normally healing old wounds, with Regrowth, can't be healed.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a limitation of healing someone else, versus healing yourself. Healing someone else is a weaker method, at least as it's understood by the Radiants currently. Figuring out how to make Regrowth fix older wounds is more difficult. When you are highly Invested in such a way that you have a spren bond, then you are able to kind of rewrite your Spiritual self to better match your Cognitive self. Basically, what your soul is better comes to match your perception of your soul and who you are, and who you want to be becomes more important. And because of that, the Radiant bond is able to heal things and even change physiology that normal Regrowth wouldn't be capable of doing.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Quantus

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Apparently that's not the case - Divine Breath won't overwrite person's perception about himself - I don't like it, I feel like it should do more to be really special, but that's canon:

  Hide contents

Questioner

Given Sanderson's Laws about limitations...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

What would you say are any spiritual, cognitive, and or physical limitations to a Returned's healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

That they can do it once.

Questioner

That they can do it once, and that's it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, right? The Returned get one heal and then they die. That's a pretty big limitation. Like you have to choose really well. However, what they can heal is bounded by cosmere limitations on healing, but it is a supercharged version.

Questioner

Okay. Could you define more cosmere limitations on healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Cosmere limitations on healing can be affected by your own perception.

Questioner

Okay. Cognitive stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Cognitive stuff. And so there's a part of that, and... But that's really-- cognitive interferes. And if your spirit is gone? Right? Cosmere healing, you know, if your spirit is passed on you just get a dead body even though you've healed it.

Questioner

So potentially Vasher, having a much greater cosmere knowledge than others could potentially have a much greater usage of that healing than regular--

Brandon Sanderson

Well the healing-- What I mean by that is yourself. You impose limits. So the person being healed can impose some limits on the healing working. It doesn't happen as often as I'm making it sound. But, you know-- why Kaladin's scars have not healed, right? So Kaladin being hit by a Returned would still not heal his scars. He's got a major hangup about those scars.

Footnote: The questioner seems to have been asking about cosmere healing in general for Returned, but Brandon focused on their ability to give up their Divine Breath to heal somebody else.
Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

  Hide contents

Kurkistan

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

Brandon Sanderson

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Kurkistan

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Kurkistan

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

Brandon Sanderson

You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track.

Kurkistan

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

Kurkistan

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

Kurkistan

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

Kurkistan

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes yes exactly.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

No, it would work the same as any other healing in Cosmere. Inquisitors don't change their appearance when they heal though their spikes - Marsh still looks like Marsh not like some Keeper from whom F-gold was taken. There is too little spiritual Identity taken with a spike to affect your healing. And perception is really important.

  Hide contents

Questioner

I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things.

Brandon Sanderson

So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it.  The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self.  But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this.

I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense?  And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

I guess Sus always viewed himself as supposed to be able to speak. Or perhaps it was his talks with Siri that led him to believe it was stolen from him and a thing he wanted back?  

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I guess Sus always viewed himself as supposed to be able to speak. Or perhaps it was his talks with Siri that led him to believe it was stolen from him and a thing he wanted back?  

In the case of injuries like that, I think it would default to being healed, and he'd have to have really internalized it as a core personality trait like Kaladin to resist the healing (or rather add it to the definition of what is healed). This as compared to like genetic disorders or age-related illness that it may or may not touch based on other factors.  

But it's all down to perception at some level, too.  So person who lost their eyes gets healed in most cases, but maybe if they embrace the new experience of heightened other Senses they'd Hang onto it.  But a person that was born blind would probably struggle to heal themself new eyes even if they thing they deserve eyes like everyone else, but also might be able to do easier if they can experience Sight magically at least once (shared memory, sensory linking, etc).  Aligning the birth body to a different gender identity is within reach of Radiant healing, but I doubt any amount of desire for Wings or Gills, etc would make them sprout with healing (despite child-me being obsessed and praying for wings daily). No clue if you can heal yourself to another race like Singer or ShoDal.   This may play into the whole precedent idea that is likely influenced by the shard-holders in some ways (related to the "universal donor" template idea with soulcast Blood).  

 

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Iceblade44

So White Sand [then Elantris] is earlier... Then how the heck old is Khriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flippin' immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

There is some time-dilation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.

Faera

Implying that some are actually immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.

Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

Shagomir

Heals from wounds, but still ages.

Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone Compounding Gold?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are correct.

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)