Kinda Crazy Theory About Tien

[Heilven he/him]

I've had this theory bouncing around in my mind for a while and I want to see other's thoughts on it. To start with, I want to say that this is mostly unfounded. I think there's only really one piece of textually evidence, and it's not particularly strong. So I'm not particularly attached to it.

Anyway, the gist of the theory is that Tien isn't dead. My explanation of this has a few different pieces. Firstly, Kaladin and Tien were both invested at the time, Tien more so. We have no idea how far along Tien was as a radiant, but he could have been pretty decently far and no one would have known. Kaladin was most likely first ideal at the time, as we know Syl was around, and Syl was able to travel to the physical realm because of her and Kaladin's connection. Secondly, Kaladin and Tien were already heavily connected. This is true for a few obvious reasons, such as them being close brothers. They loved each other deeply, and their connection mattered significantly to each of them. Thirdly, both had a deep desire to protect the other. Kaladin is the more obvious of the pair, seeing as his desire to protect Tien is a major plot point. However I think Tien's desire to protect Kaladin was just as strong, in a different way. Tien obviously wasn't going to be able to physically protect Kal, he wanted to protect Kal in mind and soul. We are told that Tien worked hard to cheer Kal up, and he was extremely important for Kal during the weeping. I think that Tien knew that Kal had depression, and he chose to help him as much as he could.

Putting it all together, here's what I think happened. Tien is killed on the battlefield. Being highly invested, he would have stuck around a significant amount in the cognitive realm. But unlike most people, I don't think Tien would be able to accept his death. I think his strong will to protect his brother would keep him from the beyond, as we know is possible (If you don't know that, read Mistborn: A Secret History). I think that as a cognitive shadow, he could have been able to latch onto his connection with Kal, causing him to Nahel bond. However, because of his lack of a solid connection to any realm, I think the Nahel bond may only have been enough to keep him in the cognitive realm. So his ability to communicate with Kaladin would be extremely difficult.

The piece of textual evidence I have is Tien's appearance in RoW. I think that was actually Tien, and not a copy created by Dalinar from Kaladin's memory. 

I want to go over some of the biggest problems with this theory. The first is the thematic implications. Tien's death is extremely important for Kaladin's story and his growth. Having Tien turn out to not have died would be a pretty big reversal of that, and could cheapen the character growth. I don't have a defense here, it's just true.

2: Kaladin has been to the cognitive realm. He has physically interacted with Syl, someone definitely Nahel bonded to him. If my theory is true, Tien should have been there. My defense here would be that Tien has somewhat accepted his current role, and knows that Kaladin needs to grow in ways that Tien cannot help with. This defense feels very loose, so it's most certainly a significant hole.

3: Why doesn't Syl know? Shouldn't she be able to see that Kal is bonded to Tien, or at least that Tien is hanging out in the cognitive realm? My defense is that we don't know if Syl would be able to know, and if Syl would even tell Kal if that was the case. She might assume that he knows, or think it better to not bring up. I think there are a couple different options, but nothing is very solid.

I think Occam's Razor here says that Tien is dead, and I'm wrong. That's certainly true, and I'm not holding my breath. I want it to be true, but I think there are plenty of interesting stories to be told with Tien's death, so I would in no way be disappointed.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Can you think of better defenses, and/or more issues? Maybe there's a WoB out there that says "oh yeah tien is 100% dead" in which case whoopsies. But this is something I have put a decent amount of thought into, so hearing thoughts of all kinds would be nice.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

29 minutes ago, Heilven said:

I want to go over some of the biggest problems with this theory. The first is the thematic implications. Tien's death is extremely important for Kaladin's story and his growth. Having Tien turn out to not have died would be a pretty big reversal of that, and could cheapen the character growth. I don't have a defense here, it's just true.

I have always thought that as an unrestricted Bondsmith, bound to the remnants of Honor..Dalinar simply took the Connection Kaladin had..combined it with his unusual Connection to the Spiritual Realm, and allowed Tien to communicate with Kaladin. That doesn't explain the horse though.

[Firesong she/her]

20 minutes ago, Heilven said:

I've had this theory bouncing around in my mind for a while and I want to see other's thoughts on it. To start with, I want to say that this is mostly unfounded. I think there's only really one piece of textually evidence, and it's not particularly strong. So I'm not particularly attached to it.

Anyway, the gist of the theory is that Tien isn't dead. My explanation of this has a few different pieces. Firstly, Kaladin and Tien were both invested at the time, Tien more so. We have no idea how far along Tien was as a radiant, but he could have been pretty decently far and no one would have known. Kaladin was most likely first ideal at the time, as we know Syl was around, and Syl was able to travel to the physical realm because of her and Kaladin's connection. Secondly, Kaladin and Tien were already heavily connected. This is true for a few obvious reasons, such as them being close brothers. They loved each other deeply, and their connection mattered significantly to each of them. Thirdly, both had a deep desire to protect the other. Kaladin is the more obvious of the pair, seeing as his desire to protect Tien is a major plot point. However I think Tien's desire to protect Kaladin was just as strong, in a different way. Tien obviously wasn't going to be able to physically protect Kal, he wanted to protect Kal in mind and soul. We are told that Tien worked hard to cheer Kal up, and he was extremely important for Kal during the weeping. I think that Tien knew that Kal had depression, and he chose to help him as much as he could.

Putting it all together, here's what I think happened. Tien is killed on the battlefield. Being highly invested, he would have stuck around a significant amount in the cognitive realm. But unlike most people, I don't think Tien would be able to accept his death. I think his strong will to protect his brother would keep him from the beyond, as we know is possible (If you don't know that, read Mistborn: A Secret History). I think that as a cognitive shadow, he could have been able to latch onto his connection with Kal, causing him to Nahel bond. However, because of his lack of a solid connection to any realm, I think the Nahel bond may only have been enough to keep him in the cognitive realm. So his ability to communicate with Kaladin would be extremely difficult.

The piece of textual evidence I have is Tien's appearance in RoW. I think that was actually Tien, and not a copy created by Dalinar from Kaladin's memory. 

I want to go over some of the biggest problems with this theory. The first is the thematic implications. Tien's death is extremely important for Kaladin's story and his growth. Having Tien turn out to not have died would be a pretty big reversal of that, and could cheapen the character growth. I don't have a defense here, it's just true.

2: Kaladin has been to the cognitive realm. He has physically interacted with Syl, someone definitely Nahel bonded to him. If my theory is true, Tien should have been there. My defense here would be that Tien has somewhat accepted his current role, and knows that Kaladin needs to grow in ways that Tien cannot help with. This defense feels very loose, so it's most certainly a significant hole.

3: Why doesn't Syl know? Shouldn't she be able to see that Kal is bonded to Tien, or at least that Tien is hanging out in the cognitive realm? My defense is that we don't know if Syl would be able to know, and if Syl would even tell Kal if that was the case. She might assume that he knows, or think it better to not bring up. I think there are a couple different options, but nothing is very solid.

I think Occam's Razor here says that Tien is dead, and I'm wrong. That's certainly true, and I'm not holding my breath. I want it to be true, but I think there are plenty of interesting stories to be told with Tien's death, so I would in no way be disappointed.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Can you think of better defenses, and/or more issues? Maybe there's a WoB out there that says "oh yeah tien is 100% dead" in which case whoopsies. But this is something I have put a decent amount of thought into, so hearing thoughts of all kinds would be nice.

I really doubt he was Invested enough to flat out become a Cognitive Shadow. Look at Eshonai, for instance. She was a Stormform Willshaper, and still didn't become a Cognitive Shadow. You need a lot of Investiture for that, the amount that Tien would have had would just have been enough to slightly prolong it, but not for like, 7 standard years. Brandon has even mentioned he wasn't even a full-on Lightweaver, he only really swore one Oath.

Quote

Undercoverwillshaper

So you had had a Word of Brandon that had said that Tien was on his way to becoming a Lightweaver. My question is, did he ever actually become a Lightweaver; did he speak an Oath, and if so, did he bond with a Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

That's an excellent question. If you look closely through the first book, you will see Tien having some slight Lightweaving effects. In the back of my head, he was where Kaladin was during most of the first book, where it wasn't really official but there was a spren hanging around. He was very close to-- by the time he left, already done that. I would say he never actually managed to get that bond working... Otherwise, perhaps, things would have played out differently than they did.

He has also implied a few times he has passed into the Beyond.

Quote

Jofwu

Dalinar had two really weird visions. Was that Connection-y stuff like he did with Kaladin and Tien?

Brandon Sanderson

Which ones are you talking about?

Jofwu

End of Words of Radiance, and in Oathbringer with Nohadon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would be the same sort of weirdness that's happening with Tien. Yes, so you have basically multiple different ways of interpreting this. One is just--what Dalinar wants is directly... he is starting to change the visions specifically, and some might argue he is pulling from the Beyond. Others would argue that what Dalinar wants, feels things in his past, he is actually enforcing upon the vision, and is changing and altering the visions. And that is absolutely going on. It's whether the other thing is happening or not, depends on your personal religious beliefs. But Dalinar is starting, the Bondsmithing is starting to shape the visions.

Quote

Questioner

Close to the end of Rhythm of War, Dalinar Connects Kaladin to something, which gives him the vision of Tien. Did he Connect him to Tien's dead soul, and if so, does Dalinar know what he did?

Brandon Sanderson

There are two prevailing theories on what happened here among cosmerenauts, in-world Arcanists. You would get two different answers. The most common answer is, Dalinar attached himself to the Spiritual Realm, pulled out possibilities, and showed one of those to Kaladin.

Questioner

If so, where did the horse come from?

Brandon Sanderson

Either pure coincidence, or some sort of matching of Fortune to the moment, that ended up leading Kaladin to the place he needed to be, which is the way a lot of Fortune works. Fortune would be like, "You should go here," and you don't even know why. That's what the Arcanist answer would be, it would be the most common answer. Some people would say he reached into the Beyond and connected Tien to Kaladin via Tien's actual soul. I will leave these both as equally valid theories. As I've said many times, I'm not gonna say whether there is an actual afterlife in the cosmere because it is too foundational to too many characters' beliefs, or lack of beliefs, or worldview in-world to have the author contradict them either way.

And also, yeah, I kind of hate the idea as well (for the reasons you mentioned), due to the fact it would undermine a lot of Kaladin's development and arc, and in his relationship with his family. 

[Heilven he/him]

1 minute ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I have always thought that as an unrestricted Bondsmith, bound to the remnants of Honor..Dalinar simply took the Connection Kaladin had..combined it with his unusual Connection to the Spiritual Realm, and allowed Tien to communicate with Kaladin. That doesn't explain the horse though.

There shouldn't really be any "Tien communicating with Kaladin" if he's really dead. If he's really dead, he's in the beyond. There's nothing to talk to anymore. That's why I figure it has to be either Dalinar creating a vision out of Tien using Kaladin's memories, or Tien isn't really dead

[olivemyheart]

It's an interesting theory but I have to agree with your counterpoints here. Tien's death is such a significant part of Kaladin as a character and has been since the first page; I just can't imagine a "Suprise! He's been alive the whole time!" plot twist being done in any way that feels satisfying. The idea that he hung around as a Cognitive Shadow á la Kelsier in Secret History is an interesting one, though. I would buy the idea if we didn't have multiple characters, including Kaladin, who have traveled in and out of the CR.

[Heilven he/him]

2 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I really doubt he was Invested enough to flat out become a Cognitive Shadow. Look at Eshonai, for instance. She was a Stormform Willshaper, and still didn't become a Cognitive Shadow. You need a lot of Investiture for that, the amount that Tien would have had would just have been enough to slightly prolong it, but not for like, 7 standard years. Brandon has even mentioned he wasn't even a full-on Lightweaver, he only really swore one Oath.

Well, no, when you die you become a cognitive shadow. You just aren't stable, and you are pulled into the beyond. I argue that a nahel bond with Kaladin is the thing that would prevent him from falling into the beyond and becoming stable. Eshonai hadn't even sworn one oath, and she still managed to hang on for a long time. Mistborn Secret History Spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier manages to hang on for a while, and he was just a mistborn. It's also heavily implied that anyone could stick around if they had enough willpower, with it becoming increasingly difficult the longer you stay. Kelsier made himself stable by connecting himself to preservation at the well of ascension. With a different source of investiture, such as a nahel bond, it should have been possible.

 

7 minutes ago, Firesong said:

He has also implied a few times he has passed into the Beyond

I think it's important to note that in these examples he's telling you what people in world would say. He's pretty explicitly not confirming or denying anything. But I do think that reading through the lines here, we aren't meant to believe that Tien is alive. Especially given what you say :

10 minutes ago, Firesong said:

And also, yeah, I kind of hate the idea as well (for the reasons you mentioned), due to the fact it would undermine a lot of Kaladin's development and arc, and in his relationship with his family

It undermines his previous character arc and his relationship with his family. As much as I might want Kaladin to be happy, this is a reach.

[Firesong she/her]

23 minutes ago, Heilven said:

Well, no, when you die you become a cognitive shadow. You just aren't stable, and you are pulled into the beyond. I argue that a nahel bond with Kaladin is the thing that would prevent him from falling into the beyond and becoming stable. Eshonai hadn't even sworn one oath, and she still managed to hang on for a long time. Mistborn Secret History Spoilers:

That... just isn't how it works. Cognitive Shadows are way more complicated and deal with those that have anchored themselves to the CR so that they do not pass on into the Beyond until they will themselves to. 

Quote

The Cognitive aspect of a recently deceased person can become a Cognitive Shadow by finding a source of Investiture to anchor themselves to the Cognitive Realm before passing on to the Beyond. The Investiture replaces the parts of the soul that connects it to the Three Realms, providing an anchor for it in the Cognitive Realm.^[5] 

Eshonai was able to stay as the Stormfather actively held her back for the short journey over the continent. It wasn't solely from her own Investiture. And we see that once he stopped holding her back, she faded almost instantly. And she was more Invested than Tien would have been, being both Stormform and an Elsecaller. She also did swear one Oath, it was just only one. 

Spoiler

And on Kelsier, it was due to the fact he became completely infused with enough Investiture it fundamentally changed his state of being. Some arcanists would even argue he isn't Kelsier anymore but just a bunch of Investiture copying him. 

He was also able to stay for a while as he was flaring a god metal alloy the instant he died, so at that exact moment, he was actually rather Invested. Thus was able to stay for a few minutes longer than usual, before he was just doused in a Perpendicularity and given a Command to "be Preserved" by a Shard. He was special circumstances in any aspect. 

So, I do feel you are misunderstanding what Cognitive Shadows are and how they function. But it is an understandable mistake. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Heilven said:

Putting it all together, here's what I think happened. Tien is killed on the battlefield. Being highly invested, he would have stuck around a significant amount in the cognitive realm. But unlike most people, I don't think Tien would be able to accept his death. I think his strong will to protect his brother would keep him from the beyond, as we know is possible (If you don't know that, read Mistborn: A Secret History). I think that as a cognitive shadow, he could have been able to latch onto his connection with Kal, causing him to Nahel bond. However, because of his lack of a solid connection to any realm, I think the Nahel bond may only have been enough to keep him in the cognitive realm. So his ability to communicate with Kaladin would be extremely difficult.

That's not possible. To become a CS you need a massive influx of investiture, much more than a Radiant has. This investiture replaces every bit of the soul and anchors it. Radiant will feel the pull and some connection isn't enough, you need to bathe the soul with investiture, nothing like this could have happened to Tien. He wasn't any near source of investiture. He wouldn't become a CS. 

Spoiler

Questioner

I think there's a flaw in my understanding of Cognitive Shadows. I assume that... they would have more visibility into the Cognitive Realm, like a Herald would be able to see spren more easily, that kind of thing. Is that incorrect?

Brandon Sanderson

That is incorrect. A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. So some Cognitive Shadows trapped on the Cognitive Realm are going to be-- have a lot of Cognitive-- I mean, they're there, right? But some Cognitive Shadows inhabiting a body in the same way that your mind inhabits your body, the way the cosmere works... So a Herald is going to feel like they are alive just like-- but their soul has been somehow transformed. It's not really transformed, it's been reproduced or copied by an injection of Investiture...

And I'll say for the purpose of the recordings, I haven't canonized any of that terminology that I just used about Cognitive Shadows. I'm just talking about it, I'm not necessarily saying that this is how you are supposed to refer to it. You can refer to it however you want. I've often used the metaphor of how fossils get made. When a fossil is made there is a pattern and it is slowly replaced with another substance that is stronger and more endurant, and has the shape of it, but is it still the bone? When you have a fossil bone is it the dinosaur bone? In most cases no, but yes. It's the ship of Theseus sort of thing again. Is this the bone or is it not? Is this the soul? Is this the person or is it not? That's the same sort of thing is happening with Cognitive Shadows. And it's happening on all three Realms to an extent, though of course the body is not. The body stays. It's happening on two Realms. It's happening Spiritually, mostly Cognitively.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

Mistborn and SH spoilers:

Spoiler

We know both Radiant and Mistborn are similarly invested and a Mistborn feels a pull into the Beyond normally

Spoiler

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

In Secret History, Nazh briefly mentioned that there's requirements or conditions to become a Cognitive Shadow. Can you tell us one of those?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, lots of Investiture. Is one way. As a certain person discovered.

Questioner

If that person were to not have entered Preservation's pool, it still would have given the same result?

Brandon Sanderson

If they had not, they would be gone.

Questioner

I wasn't clear. If they had done a different pool, not Preservation's.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, if they had been able to Invest themselves heavily, then they could have stuck around, yes. That wasn't Preservation's pool, that was more a function of--dipping themselves, pulling an Achilles inside of a Shardpool when you are dead, turned out to work. It's not the only way, not everyone on... Threnody, for instance, is heavily Invested.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

2 hours ago, Heilven said:

The piece of textual evidence I have is Tien's appearance in RoW. I think that was actually Tien, and not a copy created by Dalinar from Kaladin's memory. 

Spiritweb never dies. It stays in SR timelessly. Daliner could simply reach out to it and bring real Tien's spiritweb. This doesn't require Tien actually living.

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Close to the end of Rhythm of War, Dalinar Connects Kaladin to something, which gives him the vision of Tien. Did he Connect him to Tien's dead soul, and if so, does Dalinar know what he did?

Brandon Sanderson

There are two prevailing theories on what happened here among cosmerenauts, in-world Arcanists. You would get two different answers. The most common answer is, Dalinar attached himself to the Spiritual Realm, pulled out possibilities, and showed one of those to Kaladin.

Questioner

If so, where did the horse come from?

Brandon Sanderson

Either pure coincidence, or some sort of matching of Fortune to the moment, that ended up leading Kaladin to the place he needed to be, which is the way a lot of Fortune works. Fortune would be like, "You should go here," and you don't even know why. That's what the Arcanist answer would be, it would be the most common answer. Some people would say he reached into the Beyond and connected Tien to Kaladin via Tien's actual soul. I will leave these both as equally valid theories. As I've said many times, I'm not gonna say whether there is an actual afterlife in the cosmere because it is too foundational to too many characters' beliefs, or lack of beliefs, or worldview in-world to have the author contradict them either way.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

2 hours ago, Heilven said:

There shouldn't really be any "Tien communicating with Kaladin" if he's really dead. If he's really dead, he's in the beyond. There's nothing to talk to anymore. That's why I figure it has to be either Dalinar creating a vision out of Tien using Kaladin's memories, or Tien isn't really dead

The Beyond isn't SR, we don't know if it even exists. It's more like a religious concept that was based on real phenomena - cognitive aspects stretching into something after death. We will never know if there is something in the Beyond or if it even exists. A spirit web however stays in the Spiritual Realm. It's there, as SR is timeless and will remain there like a fossil. 

2 hours ago, Heilven said:

Well, no, when you die you become a cognitive shadow. You just aren't stable, and you are pulled into the beyond. I argue that a nahel bond with Kaladin is the thing that would prevent him from falling into the beyond and becoming stable.

A connection isn't enough. The soul needs to be massively invested. Nahel Bond doesn't invest that much, it isn't a source of invesiture. It's a connection. It won't help.

2 hours ago, Heilven said:

Eshonai hadn't even sworn one oath, and she still managed to hang on for a long time.

She swore 2 Ideals (I will be free is her second) and was invested by the Stormfather who allowed her to ride with the storm. That's why she stayed for so long. Before that SF told her she will stay for minutes, not hours

SH spoiler

Spoiler

The same words that Kelsier heard.

 

 

 

[Firesong she/her]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

snipped

Essentially, yeah to all of this. While Tien 100% would have stayed a bit longer than like, Lirin would. It would have only been a few minutes more. 

Eshonai and 

Spoiler

Kelsier

are very special circumstances, with the latter being very, very, very special. 

Spoiler

Bathing in a Perpendicularity and having Preservation give him a Command that aligns perfectly with his Intent. Both worked together to turn him into a Cognitive Shadow. It wasn't just due to him being a Mistborn. 

 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

Yes. I agree with all this don’t take this a something against the “debunks”, but like @Heilven said, what about the horse?

[alder24]

11 hours ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Yes. I agree with all this don’t take this a something against the “debunks”, but like @Heilven said, what about the horse?

@Firesong has already posted a WoB explaining that. It's either pure coincidence or Fortune.

Spoiler

Questioner

Close to the end of Rhythm of War, Dalinar Connects Kaladin to something, which gives him the vision of Tien. Did he Connect him to Tien's dead soul, and if so, does Dalinar know what he did?

Brandon Sanderson

There are two prevailing theories on what happened here among cosmerenauts, in-world Arcanists. You would get two different answers. The most common answer is, Dalinar attached himself to the Spiritual Realm, pulled out possibilities, and showed one of those to Kaladin.

Questioner

If so, where did the horse come from?

Brandon Sanderson

Either pure coincidence, or some sort of matching of Fortune to the moment, that ended up leading Kaladin to the place he needed to be, which is the way a lot of Fortune works. Fortune would be like, "You should go here," and you don't even know why. That's what the Arcanist answer would be, it would be the most common answer. Some people would say he reached into the Beyond and connected Tien to Kaladin via Tien's actual soul. I will leave these both as equally valid theories. As I've said many times, I'm not gonna say whether there is an actual afterlife in the cosmere because it is too foundational to too many characters' beliefs, or lack of beliefs, or worldview in-world to have the author contradict them either way.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Koajan

I have a question about the man at the end of Rhythm of War that Kaladin finds, that used to recollect lost objects from the Shattered Plains, such as Rock's razor or even Tien's horse. Will we get to know more about him, or is it just a random man?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what is happening there is all RAFO material. I'm not gonna answer any specifics about Tien's horse or even about Tien. There are lots of ways you can theorize that this happened, and I'm not gonna canonize which of them it is. One of those includes Hoid and his shenanigans, that's a possibility. One of which is kind of some Fortune being bent around what's going on. Other possibilities are that there's a divine manifestation. I'm not gonna say which of those it is, but there are lots of plausible answers there.

Barcelona Virtual Signing (July 9, 2021)

 

[Marabout]

I think Tien is dead but that there is more to the story.

The way Syl describes hearing him call out makes me think that he was a Dawnshard.  I don’t remember the exact quote but it was something like a voice of tapped crystal demanding (commanding?) to be heard.

[Treamayne]

20 minutes ago, Marabout said:

I think Tien is dead but that there is more to the story.

The way Syl describes hearing him call out makes me think that he was a Dawnshard.  I don’t remember the exact quote but it was something like a voice of tapped crystal demanding (commanding?) to be heard.

Keep in mind that Tien can both be dead (departing for the Beyond) and his Spiritual Shadow can still be in the Spiritual Realm for Dalinar to connect to Kaladin.

WoB

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.