Did Kaladin Refuse the shardblade in TWOK because of the bond?

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think of Kaladin as more of a combat pragmatist. Sure he prefers a spear - that's what he has trained with the most. However, even back in WoK we see him using throwing knives and using a spear tip as a dagger to kill the Shardbearer. In WoR we see him use his decapitated spear as a quarter staff. Facing down Moash and Graves, he uses a boot knife when Moash broke his spear. The list goes on. . . 

Hard agree.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Kaladin is a spearman, trained with a spear and instinctively knows how to fight with it. He is connected with spears spiritually. Spear is one of the most versatile weapons in history, in many cases better than a sword (swords are very overrated, they were secondary weapons, not primary). While lances or pikes would be a good choice for air to ground or air to air engagements, they are different from a spear, much longer and balanced differently - he can fight with them, but his instincts might fail him. It’s simply easier for Kaladin to fight with a spear, and he is far more dangerous with them than with a lance. I don't think Kaladin preferring the spear over other weapons has to do something with his Lighteyes vs Darkeyes conflict. He uses weapons that fit the combat situation he's in, he is changing spear for other weapons, which was most obvious in his fight with Szeth in WoR, but his default weapon is the spear.

I agree with that in terms of regular weapons, but not Shard Blades, at least at first.  He might have refused training with a Shard Blade with Zahel for Syl's sake, but refusing Heleran's Blade seems much more about his distaste of light eyes.  

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I agree with that in terms of regular weapons, but not Shard Blades, at least at first.  He might have refused training with a Shard Blade with Zahel for Syl's sake, but refusing Heleran's Blade seems much more about his distaste of light eyes.  

Oh, here I was talking just about Kal's general choices of weapons when fighting, not about Kal refusing to pick up a Shardblade. That one I've talked about here.

Edited August 16, 2023 by alder24

[alder24]

On 9.08.2023 at 10:10 PM, Wayne's Pickle said:

I agree that it wasn't the sole reason. I guess a better way of asking my question would be if another person/ pre-Radiant who hadn't yet sworn the first ideal were to pick up (or almost pick up) a dead blade. Would they feel the same sense of wrongness due to their connection with their spren?

Double post, but I've just found this quote where Dalinar said holding "Taln's" Shardblade seems somehow wrong to him, WoR ch 76:

Quote

Dalinar smiled grimly. “If possible. At least now I’ve got a way to fight that assassin, if he arrives. With all of these Shardblades flying around lately, I figured having one myself made too much sense to ignore.” He narrowed his eyes, turning eastward. “Even if it feels . . . wrong somehow to hold one. Strange, that. Why should it feel wrong? Perhaps I just miss my old Blade.”

It looks like Dalinar is another example of pre-Radiant Fortune and connection interference. He even turned towards Stormfather and the Origin.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 8/22/2023 at 9:24 AM, alder24 said:

Double post, but I've just found this quote where Dalinar said holding "Taln's" Shardblade seems somehow wrong to him, WoR ch 76:

It looks like Dalinar is another example of pre-Radiant Fortune and connection interference. He even turned towards Stormfather and the Origin.

Dalinar was also of the first oath then, even though he hadn't been "officially" accepted. My reasoning for that is the first time he healed with Stormlight that he was conscious of, there was the internal comment that was along the lines of "He had done this before..on the battlefield?" or something to that effect. There is something weird about several of the current Radiants having powers before it seems like they should have? At least with Syl, she always knew Kal but it feels very much outside of time as if the connection to the SR is backdating itself?

[Treamayne]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:35 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

Dalinar was also of the first oath then, even though he hadn't been "officially" accepted.

Actually, no. Dalinar says the First and Second Oath both in Ch 89. he was only a proto-Radiant without oaths in Ch 76.

Spoiler

Distant thunder rumbled in the sky, though there were no clouds.

“Life before death!” Dalinar shouted. “Strength before weakness! Journey before destination!”

I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! the voice said, sounding angry. I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!

“I need you,” Dalinar said. “Despite what you did. The bridgeman spoke of oaths given, and of each order of knights being different. The First Ideal is the same. After that, each order is unique, requiring different Words.”

The thunder rumbled. It sounded . . . like a challenge. Could Dalinar interpret thunder now?

This was a dangerous gambit. He confronted something primal, something unknowable. Something that had actively tried to murder him and his entire army.

“Fortunately,” Dalinar said, “I know the second oath I am to make. I don’t need to be told it. I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.”

The thunder silenced. Dalinar stood alone, staring at the sky, waiting.

VERY WELL, the Stormfather finally said. THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED.

Yes, he was receiving visions since before the beginning of WoK - but he had not sworn the First Oath before this point. His ability to understand the meaning behind the thunder right after the first oath shows that the bond was completed (despite Stormfather's Protests).

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:17 PM, Treamayne said:

Actually, no. Dalinar says the First and Second Oath both in Ch 89. he was only a proto-Radiant without oaths in Ch 76.

  Hide contents

Distant thunder rumbled in the sky, though there were no clouds.

“Life before death!” Dalinar shouted. “Strength before weakness! Journey before destination!”

I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! the voice said, sounding angry. I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!

“I need you,” Dalinar said. “Despite what you did. The bridgeman spoke of oaths given, and of each order of knights being different. The First Ideal is the same. After that, each order is unique, requiring different Words.”

The thunder rumbled. It sounded . . . like a challenge. Could Dalinar interpret thunder now?

This was a dangerous gambit. He confronted something primal, something unknowable. Something that had actively tried to murder him and his entire army.

“Fortunately,” Dalinar said, “I know the second oath I am to make. I don’t need to be told it. I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.”

The thunder silenced. Dalinar stood alone, staring at the sky, waiting.

VERY WELL, the Stormfather finally said. THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED.

Yes, he was receiving visions since before the beginning of WoK - but he had not sworn the First Oath before this point. His ability to understand the meaning behind the thunder right after the first oath shows that the bond was completed (despite Stormfather's Protests).

So when does he have the thought about having healed with investiture before his official first time, on the battlefield? I know it's in there, I just don't know where. That's not to say I'm certain that there isn't some qualifier to it..because I've forgotten little details like that before. 

[Treamayne]

20 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

So when does he have the thought about having healed with investiture before his official first time, on the battlefield? I know it's in there, I just don't know where. That's not to say I'm certain that there isn't some qualifier to it..because I've forgotten little details like that before. 

Don't forget, Kaladin was also healing with Stormlight before his first oath (surviving the highstorm and afterward). Here are the quotes you were thinking of - his unintentional use of Stormlight isn't on-screen, as far as I can tell, but it is implied:

Spoiler

WoR Ch 83:

Quote

Dalinar undid his breastplate and sat down with a grunt as the surgeon ordered him a stool. He suffered the woman’s ministration, though he knew the wound was not terrible. It was bad—any wound was bad on the battlefield, particularly if it impaired the sword arm—but it wouldn’t kill him.

“Storms,” the surgeon said. “Highprince, you’re all scars under here. How many times have you been wounded in the shoulder?”

“Can’t remember.”

“How can you still use your arm?”

“Training and practice.”

“That’s not how it works . . .” she whispered, eyes wide. “I mean . . . storms . . .”

“Just sew the thing up,” he said. “Yes, I’ll stay off the battlefield today. No, I won’t stress it. Yes, I’ve heard all the lectures before.”

He shouldn’t have been out there in the first place. He’d told himself he wouldn’t ride into battle anymore. He was supposed to be a politician now, not a warlord.

But once in a while, the Blackthorn needed to come out. The men needed it. 

WoR Ch 85: (note: no references to his wounded shoulder from Ch 83)

Quote

Dalinar did not fight for his life. His life hadn’t been his own for years.

He fought for Gavilar. He fought as he wished he had all those years ago, for the chance he had missed. In that moment between storms—when the rain stilled and the winds drew in their breaths to blow—he danced with the slayer of kings, and somehow held his own.

The assassin moved like a shadow. His step seemed too quick to be human. When he jumped, he soared into the air. He swung his Shardblade like flashes of lightning, and would occasionally stretch forward with his other hand, as if to grab Dalinar.

Recalling their previous encounter, Dalinar recognized that as the more dangerous of Szeth’s weapons. Each time, Dalinar managed to bring his Blade around and force the assassin away. The man attacked from different directions, but Dalinar didn’t think. Thoughts could get jumbled, the mind disoriented.

His instincts knew what to do.

Duck when Szeth leaped over Dalinar’s head. Step backward, avoiding a strike that should have severed his spine. Lash out, forcing the assassin away. Three quick steps backward, sword up wardingly, strike for the assassin’s palm as it tried to touch him.

It worked. For this brief time, he fought this creature. Bridge Four remained back, as he’d commanded. They’d only have interfered.

He survived.

But he did not win.

WoR Ch 89:

Quote

He knew to expect the feeling of a storm raging inside, as both Kaladin and Shallan had described it to him. It urged him to act, to move, to not stand still. It did not, however, feel like the Thrill of battle—which was what he had anticipated.

He felt his wounds healing in a familiar way. He’d done this before, he sensed. On the battlefield earlier? His arm felt fine now, and the cut on his side barely ached anymore.

 

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

@Treamayne I've been operating under the assumption that you are at the level of the first oath if you're exhibiting the traits of a Radiant and a Spren has accepted those traits..giving one access to stormlight. That's what I meant by Dalinar not being "Officially" accepted. So, either the first oath isn't necessary for initial access to investiture on Roshar..or Honor being splintered and the safeguards/limits he set not being active is causing this? Or a third thing I haven't thought of?

[Treamayne]

18 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

@Treamayne I've been operating under the assumption that you are at the level of the first oath if you're exhibiting the traits of a Radiant and a Spren has accepted those traits..giving one access to stormlight. That's what I meant by Dalinar not being "Officially" accepted. So, either the first oath isn't necessary for initial access to investiture on Roshar..or Honor being splintered and the safeguards/limits he set not being active is causing this? Or a third thing I haven't thought of?

That's what I was trying to explain on the previous page in this post. Based on what we know so far, I think it is the fundamental difference between a proto-Radiant (for whom a spren is searching and a SR connection has been established) and other Radiants/trainees (such as Squires).

We see the effects of SR connection allow Kaladin and Dalinar some small, inadvertant access to Stormlight before the First Oath (because SR Connection tends to manifest in small effects that precede their cause) - where as with Radiants like Teft and The Lopen, they did not have these effects because the SR Connection was between a "squire" and their spren, and so it could not manifest an effect until the person had become a Squire (e.g. Kaladin's third oath allowing The Lopen - and his other squires - access to Stormlight). 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

That's what I was trying to explain on the previous page in this post. Based on what we know so far, I think it is the fundamental difference between a proto-Radiant (for whom a spren is searching and a SR connection has been established) and other Radiants/trainees (such as Squires).

We see the effects of SR connection allow Kaladin and Dalinar some small, inadvertant access to Stormlight before the First Oath (because SR Connection tends to manifest in small effects that precede their cause) - where as with Radiants like Teft and The Lopen, they did not have these effects because the SR Connection was between a "squire" and their spren, and so it could not manifest an effect until the person had become a Squire (e.g. Kaladin's third oath allowing The Lopen - and his other squires - access to Stormlight). 

 

Could it be a form of time travel? The SR is what allows those with access the ability to see the future..but the SR has no time, and is all time. Is it possible that they had access to investiture in the same way that Syl "has always known" Kaladin? Did they heal back then, because they would heal in the future, and if they didn't heal back then, they wouldn't be there in the future?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Is it possible that they had access to investiture in the same way that Syl "has always known" Kaladin?

Yes, they are both related to Connection in the Spiritual Realm.

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Could it be a form of time travel? The SR is what allows those with access the ability to see the future..but the SR has no time, and is all time. Did they heal back then, because they would heal in the future, and if they didn't heal back then, they wouldn't be there in the future?

I think you are overthinking this. Did you go back and reread the post referenced above? Also, the WoB in this post (early page one). 

It is not time travel - it is just as Brandon explains in the WoB: Connection manifests in strange ways - one of those ways is that, in some conditions, an Effect can precede a Cause. Kaladin and Dalinar were able to subconciously use Stormlight, because the SR Connection that would allow them to manifest the ability is not tied to "time;" because the SR has neither time nor place. So having a Nahel Bond creates a Connection in the SR, and because the SR is timeless, an effect of that bond appeared before the First Oath that solidified it. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I did, and I got excited at the idea of time being wonky when it comes to the Radiants (or anyone touching the SR). Technically, no it isn't time travel, but as you pointed out, effect preceding cause is what I was getting at. 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I did, and I got excited at the idea of time being wonky when it comes to the Radiants (or anyone touching the SR). Technically, no it isn't time travel, but as you pointed out, effect preceding cause is what I was getting at. 

Okay, I was not understanding your point. Please note that it is not just a Radiant thing - any Investiture messing with SR things can potentially cause similar weird effects - we just have not yet seen such things crop up in other magic systems yet (with AonDor being the most likely to also experience similar oddities, IMO). 

Mistborn Era 1 Spoilers

Spoiler

It's possible that something like Vin's drawing on the mists has elements of this - since her Connection to Preservation and eventually becoming its Vessel may be part of why she was able to draw on the mists in TFE and WoA, years before she became a Vessel. 

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Ooooooooook. The point you make about Mistborn makes a lot more sense to me now. I had long wondered what was "special" about that situation, and if this principle holds true, then that is really cool.

[Stormlit Shard he/him]

22 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Yes, they are both related to Connection in the Spiritual Realm.

I think you are overthinking this. Did you go back and reread the post referenced above? Also, the WoB in this post (early page one). 

It is not time travel - it is just as Brandon explains in the WoB: Connection manifests in strange ways - one of those ways is that, in some conditions, an Effect can precede a Cause. Kaladin and Dalinar were able to subconciously use Stormlight, because the SR Connection that would allow them to manifest the ability is not tied to "time;" because the SR has neither time nor place. So having a Nahel Bond creates a Connection in the SR, and because the SR is timeless, an effect of that bond appeared before the First Oath that solidified it. 

But in SA3 doesn't it say that Eshonai (not sure if SA3 is allowed in this post so I'll put it in a spoiler box)

Spoiler

That Eshonai survived in the water for so long by using stormlight subconsciously only because the Stormfather accepted the first oath beforehand?

Does that mean some Surgebinders would be able to and some could not?

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Stormlit Shard said:

But in SA3 doesn't it say that Eshonai (not sure if SA3 is allowed in this post so I'll put it in a spoiler box)

  Hide contents

That Eshonai survived in the water for so long by using stormlight subconsciously only because the Stormfather accepted the first oath beforehand?

Does that mean some Surgebinders would be able to and some could not?

It is allowed, RoW too. She said the words in her mind and couldn't say them out loud, that's why Stormfather accepted them. RoW ch 117

Quote

Eshonai began summoning her Blade—but in a rumbling flash, her boulder shifted and she lost her grip. The Rhythm of Panic ruled her briefly as she was again submerged. Lightning flashing above made the water seem to glow as she was smashed into one chasm wall, then another.
Not Panic. Not your rhythms.
I reject you.
My life. My death.
I WILL BE FREE.

[...]

YOU WERE RADIANT WHEN YOU DIED. YOU COULDN’T SAY THE WORDS, UNDER THE WATER, BUT I ACCEPTED THEM ANYWAY. HOW DO YOU THINK YOU SURVIVED THAT LONG WITHOUT BREATHING?

 

[Stormlit Shard he/him]

So she rejected Odium and that was when she started using stormlight but it wasn't for a long time like Kaladin because she was still in the grasp of Odium with the Stormspren in her gemheart?

[Treamayne]

42 minutes ago, Stormlit Shard said:

So she rejected Odium and that was when she started using stormlight but it wasn't for a long time like Kaladin because she was still in the grasp of Odium with the Stormspren in her gemheart?

Mostly correct, yes:

Spoiler

RoW Ch 88:

Quote

When the lightning next flashed, the chasmfiend had lowered its incredible head toward her, its eye close enough that she could have stabbed it without needing to lunge.

Darkness fell. Then a small burst of light appeared directly ahead of her. A small spren made of white fire. It zipped forward, trailing an afterimage. Like a falling star. It moved closer, then spun around her.

By its light, she could see the chasmfiend slowly retreat into the chasm, its spikelike claws leaving scores on the stone. Her heart beating like thunder, Eshonai attuned Anxiety and hurried home. 

WoR Interlude-11

Quote

Eshonai waved her hand as she climbed the central spire of Narak, trying to shoo away the tiny spren. It danced around her head, shedding rings of light from its cometlike form. Horrid thing. Why would it not leave her alone?

Quote

She sat down, then gasped.

That rhythm! It sounded like . . . like her own voice yelling at her. Screaming in pain. What was that? She shook her head, and found that she had reflexively pulled her hand to her chest in anxiety. When she opened it, the cometlike spren shot out.

She attuned Irritation. 

 

So, Timbre had tried to bond Eshonai. She found Eshonai shortly before she took on Stormform (RoW) - then, after the change, Timbre tried to break Odium's influence by allowing the proto-bond to let Eshonai hear her own Cognitive screaming (WoR), but was ultimately unsuccessful. Eshonai actually accepted the first two oaths of the Willshapers (My Life / I will be free), but could not verbalize them because of the flooding. If you recall, it was only after the first oath for Venli that Timbre was able to reside in her gemheart and take the Voidspren there "captive" (something Timbre probably learned from her time with Eshonai). 

1 hour ago, Stormlit Shard said:

Does that mean some Surgebinders would be able to and some could not?

Right, that was the crux of my hypothesis on the previous page. That the "Connection shenanigans" happens when Spren are searching for <Individual> because the Bond will be formed and so Connection already exists in the Spiritual Realm before the Bond is formed in the Cognitive and Physical Realms. However, when a potential Radiant is found and accepted because they are a Squire (Lopen, Gaz, etc.) then this kind of effect is either not possible, less-likely, or unnoticed (since they already have access to Stormlight be being a squire) because the Connection isn't Spren + Individual-with-trait(s); it's Spren + Squire-with-traits so the connection Prechoes (preceding echoes - to try a new term) would only appear after they have become a Squire (as being a squire is part of the Connection).

Edited September 6, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG