Connection manipulation and becoming a "ghost"

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

When Marsh was moving around unnoticed there has been some speculation that he was using emotional allomancy and F duralumin.  

Now Marsh is sort of a monster of a person and for him to cruise around Scadrial unnoticed is pretty awesome. But how far do you think this combo would work?  

Of course this question will tie it back to breaths!  I love endowment and the entire awakening system but there is that pesky aura I am always trying to hide!

Say you had an A zinc F duralumin twinborn and somehow they were given a wealth of breaths. How powerful do you think the combination of emotional allomancy is when combined with F duralumin?  Do you think duralumin could do it alone?  

Marsh is a massive inquisitor with spikes for eyes.  Do you think it would be harder to hide an aura of higher heightening / make people ignore your aura at higher hightenings than convincing them to ignore a massive inquisitor?  

Maybe the 10th heightening shooting rainbows around a person is simply too much to store all of your connection to the folks around you and riot their other senses to not care? Maybe brass would be better for this as soothing their curiosity to nothing would be more powerful?  

I am also curious how much emotional allomancy we really think played a role in that. I believe Marsh is an exceptionally talented allomancer and is likely very skilled in being subtle with his allomancy.  But is subtle rioting and soothing even going to make that much effect on folks?  Especially folks who have been able to identify many times the use of soothers and rioters in books in the past?  

[therunner he/him]

I think A-Zinc and F-Duralumin would not synergize well.
To influence someone with A-Zinc you most likely need to have Connection to them (similar to how Steel/iron establish Connection between Allomancer and metal), and if you store that with F-Duralumin you can no longer influence them.

The aura can also be hidden by investing Breaths deep within yourself like Vasher does throughout the entire Warbreaker, and on Roshar, so you don't need additional Invested Arts.

Also, I think Marsh is hiding via F-Duralumin, and is using rioting and soothing only on those who start noticing him despite that (sooth their curiosity and riot something else).

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

48 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

When Marsh was moving around unnoticed there has been some speculation that he was using emotional allomancy and F duralumin.  

Now Marsh is sort of a monster of a person and for him to cruise around Scadrial unnoticed is pretty awesome. But how far do you think this combo would work?  

Of course this question will tie it back to breaths!  I love endowment and the entire awakening system but there is that pesky aura I am always trying to hide!

Say you had an A zinc F duralumin twinborn and somehow they were given a wealth of breaths. How powerful do you think the combination of emotional allomancy is when combined with F duralumin?  Do you think duralumin could do it alone?  

Marsh is a massive inquisitor with spikes for eyes.  Do you think it would be harder to hide an aura of higher heightening / make people ignore your aura at higher hightenings than convincing them to ignore a massive inquisitor?  

Maybe the 10th heightening shooting rainbows around a person is simply too much to store all of your connection to the folks around you and riot their other senses to not care? Maybe brass would be better for this as soothing their curiosity to nothing would be more powerful?  

I am also curious how much emotional allomancy we really think played a role in that. I believe Marsh is an exceptionally talented allomancer and is likely very skilled in being subtle with his allomancy.  But is subtle rioting and soothing even going to make that much effect on folks?  Especially folks who have been able to identify many times the use of soothers and rioters in books in the past?  

It's worth noting that it hasn't been confirmed that F-Duralumin is what Marsh is doing. Could he have gained another spike for that post-Catacendre, after Hemalurgy was nerfed? Or did Ruin give him that one? We really need to map out what powers he has.

15 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think A-Zinc and F-Duralumin would not synergize well.
To influence someone with A-Zinc you most likely need to have Connection to them (similar to how Steel/iron establish Connection between Allomancer and metal), and if you store that with F-Duralumin you can no longer influence them.

Do you have a WoB saying that Connection is needed? I thought EA worked by lapping at someone's Cognitive Aspect.

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sebarial

Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list.

bubblebooy

Does the difficulty of affecting metals in a body with Allomancy have to do with Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

No, more to do with the fact that most people are innately Invested in the Cosmere--and certain planets have extra Investiture. Something Invested is more difficult to transform/move/etc with another form of Investiture.

bubblebooy

That is what I had originally thought before you capitalized "ALL KINDS." Is Soulcasting people like Jasnah Kholin did doubly hard since people a have a strong sense of Identity and have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

We're getting a bit far on this course, so it's time to pull out the RAFOs. I don't want to overplay my hand and leave the books without anything to talk about.

Phantine

Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics?

For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd have to get him inside a living one.

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

 

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The aura can also be hidden by investing Breaths deep within yourself like Vasher does throughout the entire Warbreaker, and on Roshar, so you don't need additional Invested Arts.

That's only been confirmed to apply to the Divine Breath, not regular Breaths. We were just discussing it on another thread the other day, you're not likely to be able to replicate that with Breaths, since the two are fundamentally different.

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Also, I think Marsh is hiding via F-Duralumin, and is using rioting and soothing only on those who start noticing him despite that (sooth their curiosity and riot something else).

So, do you think he's using them together or is it F-Duralumi until someone pushes past that, and then he drops that and engages the EA? I don't think that would work without Duralumin Flaring the EA every time, meeting the specter of death isn't likely to be a forgettable experience regardless of what you're feeling unless it's combined with F-Duralumin.

Also, as Aluminum becomes more and more common, what does that mean for Marsh? And if you're wearing enough Aluminum, can you become immune to the effect of storing/tapping F-Duralumin, and thus resist any manipulation people attempt using that?

Edited August 8, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

10 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think A-Zinc and F-Duralumin would not synergize well.
To influence someone with A-Zinc you most likely need to have Connection to them (similar to how Steel/iron establish Connection between Allomancer and metal), and if you store that with F-Duralumin you can no longer influence them.

The aura can also be hidden by investing Breaths deep within yourself like Vasher does throughout the entire Warbreaker, and on Roshar, so you don't need additional Invested Arts.

Also, I think Marsh is hiding via F-Duralumin, and is using rioting and soothing only on those who start noticing him despite that (sooth their curiosity and riot something else).

So duralumin could be responsible for it on its own?  

I never thought of rioting and soothing as needing a connection.  I viewed them more as a blanket effect that sort of covered everyone around the allomancer.  I knew it could be focused on one person specifically with some focus but I didn't think of it as requiring any connection.   

As for the aura of the breaths.  Investing deep down inside of oneself is great but half of my interest in breaths is that 6th sense from lifesense.  To give it up feels an awful waste.  Maybe its better to hope on board the compounding tin hype train @Koloss17 loves so much.  

Compound the lifesense and then hide away those breaths and aura. 

Would compounded tin allow you to infinitely store perfect pitch and color recognition as well?  Perhaps that is the answer to supercharging your senses and lifesense minus the aura.  

4 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Also, as Aluminum becomes more and more common, what does that mean for Marsh? And if you're wearing enough Aluminum, can you become immune to the effect of storing/tapping F-Duralumin, and thus resist any manipulation people attempt using that?

This is a good point. Would aluminum stop the connection manipulation?  What about copper clouds?  I tend to believe that copper works on the pulses and rhythms more than anything and I don't know that I believe connection via duralumin is in anyway connected to pulses and rhythms but the aluminum seems like it works against everything.  Although is duralumin just changing your connection to everything on a spiritual level and the aluminum worn on another person can't really stop you from dampening your existance to the realm?  

 

Crazy theory time here:  

Could he just be storing his connection to the physical realm entirely and almost ghost stepping around as he filters in and out of physical existance?  Probably a totally out there thought process.  For someone who has appeared to people in the spiritual realm and cognitive realms (at least thats what I think of when he talks about escorting spirits across to the beyond.)

Maybe he is compounding connection to the cognitive realm? Tapping a ton of that while storing the physical realm connection allowing him to view into the physical realm while being a mostly cognitive being at that moment thus being a literal ghost walking around and appearing when he wants to and to whomever he wants to.  Almost a form of transportation. 

[therunner he/him]

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do you have a WoB saying that Connection is needed? I thought EA worked by lapping at someone's Cognitive Aspect.

No WoB, however it seems that every long range power work by Connection.
At some point every magic is 'spiritual realm' shenanigans.

You form Connections even just by meeting people, affecting someone with Rioting/Soothing would certainly form a Connection between the two. But if you are actively storing F-Duralumin, no Connection forms, however also no effect.

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's only been confirmed to apply to the Divine Breath, not regular Breaths. We were just discussing it on another thread the other day, you're not likely to be able to replicate that with Breaths, since the two are fundamentally different.

Hmm, fair point.

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

So, do you think he's using them together or is it F-Duralumi until someone pushes past that, and then he drops that and engages the EA? I don't think that would work without Duralumin Flaring the EA every time, meeting the specter of death isn't likely to be a forgettable experience regardless of what you're feeling unless it's combined with F-Duralumin.

I think it is F-Duralumin basically all the time (perhaps selectively), and when someone forms a Connection with him despite that, he uses Rioting/Soothing to divert their attention.

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Also, as Aluminum becomes more and more common, what does that mean for Marsh? And if you're wearing enough Aluminum, can you become immune to the effect of storing/tapping F-Duralumin, and thus resist any manipulation people attempt using that?

You might have to fully seal yourself in Aluminum, as while it has certain field effect, it does not seem to be too long range.
So even full Aluminum suit would not protect you like that.
@Tamriel Wolfsbaine

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I never thought of rioting and soothing as needing a connection.  I viewed them more as a blanket effect that sort of covered everyone around the allomancer.  I knew it could be focused on one person specifically with some focus but I didn't think of it as requiring any connection.  

You can push on all metals around, blanket effect and requiring Connection are not mutually exclusive.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is a good point. Would aluminum stop the connection manipulation?  What about copper clouds?  I tend to believe that copper works on the pulses and rhythms more than anything and I don't know that I believe connection via duralumin is in anyway connected to pulses and rhythms but the aluminum seems like it works against everything.  Although is duralumin just changing your connection to everything on a spiritual level and the aluminum worn on another person can't really stop you from dampening your existance to the realm? 

I don't think copperclouds would have any impact on F-Duralumin.

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Crazy theory time here:  

Could he just be storing his connection to the physical realm entirely and almost ghost stepping around as he filters in and out of physical existance?  Probably a totally out there thought process.  For someone who has appeared to people in the spiritual realm and cognitive realms (at least thats what I think of when he talks about escorting spirits across to the beyond.)

I don't think that is the case, that sounds more like Connection manipulation on Bondsmith level than only Feruchemy.
His apperance to people in cognitive realm are work of Harmony, not of Marsh's powers.

Edited August 8, 2023 by therunner

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

No WoB, however it seems that every long range power work by Connection.
At some point every magic is 'spiritual realm' shenanigans.
You form Connections even just by meeting people, affecting someone with Rioting/Soothing would certainly form a Connection between the two. But if you are actively storing F-Duralumin, no Connection forms, however also no effect.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think there isn't enough evidence to be able to say that lack of Connection would make the power not work (or nearly that) altogether. It's an interesting thought experiment though.

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think it is F-Duralumin basically all the time (perhaps selectively), and when someone forms a Connection with him despite that, he uses Rioting/Soothing to divert their attention.

Is it even possible to form a Connection with someone when they're stuffing as much of it away as possible?

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

You might have to fully seal yourself in Aluminum, as while it has certain field effect, it does not seem to be too long range.
So even full Aluminum suit would not protect you like that.

I don't think the Connector needs to be in the Aluminum field for the Connection to be nerfed. If you were entirely surrounded with Aluminum and a Connector tried tapping Connection to you, it wouldn't do anything no matter how close or far they were. We know that for a fact. It's just a matter of if you can do that without entirely surrounding yourself.

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I can see where you're coming from, but I think there isn't enough evidence to be able to say that lack of Connection would make the power not work (or nearly that) altogether. It's an interesting thought experiment though.

There isn't evidence either way, so both is just speculation at the moment.

7 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Is it even possible to form a Connection with someone when they're stuffing as much of it away as possible?

I think so, since I would say that Connection sort of has to belong to both parties (I have Connection to You, and You to me) and Ferring can affect only one of those.
It would be difficult, but e.g. punching someone would probably be enough to break through storing Connection. It is not invisibility.

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

There isn't evidence either way, so both is just speculation at the moment.

I think so, since I would say that Connection sort of has to belong to both parties (I have Connection to You, and You to me) and Ferring can affect only one of those.
It would be difficult, but e.g. punching someone would probably be enough to break through storing Connection. It is not invisibility.

 

I figure storing connection probably doesn't lead to you not being seen... just that noone can feel anything really towards you or against you.  They see the aura and rainbows shooting off this person but they are so disconnected from it all that it doesn't ever register in their minds?? 

I did always think that connection was a two way thing though which is weird and made me not like duralumin. 

I assumed that if you stored so much connection that noone cared about you it would make it very difficult to move forward and care about anything or anyone else for the feruchemist either. Likewise I figured that if you tapped a bunch of connection you could become a massive cult leader but the downside is that you feel just as loyal to the people that feel loyalty towards you.  

I really want that to be incorrect. The idea that boosting your connection with others makes it impossible to take advantage of them removes this incredible ability from the potential antagonists as far as I see it.  I guess they could just lead an insanely loyal band of baddies but when you tap those connections to store I feel like the motivation in the group that used to be driven by these connections would disappear.  

 

I am hopefully thinking of it all wrong.  Afterall we see medallions, which we know store connection, be used by a well motivated character.  We know that it is storing into the duralumin metalmind that allows for that communication but we also don't see anyone stop caring to talk with Allik either.  

[Quantus he/him]

Just to through a wrinkle in this whole conversation:  The only Connection Medallion we've actually seen stored "Blank Connection" that is "Connection to No Place" and since Connection has to be two-sided it "reaches out and Connects you to the place you are."  Which makes no bloody sense by the currently known rules, since you can use Feruchemy to Blank your Connections by Storing them, so I have no clue how you'd go about Storing the Blanked Connection itself.  

All that to say, this means Connection is going to be weird and likely not Intuitive compared to the others, especially since it's the only Feruchemy that can affect others, but we dont really know the nuance yet.  

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

Just to through a wrinkle in this whole conversation:  The only Connection Medallion we've actually seen stored "Blank Connection" that is "Connection to No Place" and since Connection has to be two-sided it "reaches out and Connects you to the place you are."  Which makes no bloody sense by the currently known rules, since you can use Feruchemy to Blank your Connections by Storing them, so I have no clue how you'd go about Storing the Blanked Connection itself.  

Yeah, that makes no sense. I think this has to be connected to identity. Maybe if you blank your own identity, all your connections are blanked too? But connection is like a string connecting two things, on your side it's keyed to you, on the other it keyed to that object - blanking your own identity will unkeyed it from you, not that object. You have to somehow unkeyed it on the other side. I have no idea how to "unkey the land". You can't just give it aluminum medallion...

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

All that to say, this means Connection is going to be weird and likely not Intuitive compared to the others, especially since it's the only Feruchemy that can affect others, but we dont really know the nuance yet.  

Or just like with nicrosil, Feruchemy and medallions differ when it comes to connection. Maybe with medallions you can have a blank connection but with Feruchemy you can just store it fully or mostly?