Argent he/him Posted August 8, 2023 Posted August 8, 2023 Moved to Cosmere Discussion at OP's request
therunner he/him Posted August 8, 2023 Posted August 8, 2023 4 hours ago, Frustration said: I don't know about that Discord doesn't sound very stable. Though I guess Harmony does, so that shows how far that gets us. Discord is not stable as a concept, however I would argue it is more stable as di-Shard than Harmony. Or more precisely, both Harmony and Discord represent equilibria of di-Shardic system of Preservation and Ruin. However, where Harmony can be easily pushed outside of the balance by nearly any act (as we see in Era 2), it is unstable equilibrium which is reflected in its metal. On the other hand Discord is more natural state of the di-Shardic system, and hence is stable. After all, Preservation and Ruin cooperated to create Scadrial, and then where at war with each other for basically the rest of its history. That suggests that working with Harmony is difficult for them, and being Discordant is more natural for this pairing. To stormlight/anti-stormlight: Any government would try to limit availability of anti-stormlight would be restricted. I.e. its production would be regulated, and non-regulated production would be criminal offense. Failure of point 1 would result in: Decreased interaction of spren with Physical Realm (due to worry about being killed permanently), and hence decrease in Radiant numbers. Would allow for large scale terrorist attacks, which would inevitably lead to try to assert control. Lead to research into suppression fabrials, to create protected areas where such reaction is not possible (either via suppressing just anti-light if possible, or all light). Don't know what else.
Frustration Posted August 8, 2023 Author Posted August 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Argent said: Moved to Cosmere Discussion at OP's request Thank you. 33 minutes ago, therunner said: To stormlight/anti-stormlight: Any government would try to limit availability of anti-stormlight would be restricted. I.e. its production would be regulated, and non-regulated production would be criminal offense. How? It's a vacuum tube and an instrument. Not exactly something you can track. Not to mention Raboniel going out of her way to make sure everyone had it, and Navani's dedication to open knowledge. 36 minutes ago, therunner said: Failure of point 1 would result in: Decreased interaction of spren with Physical Realm (due to worry about being killed permanently), and hence decrease in Radiant numbers. Staying in the CR won't save them, and it would actually in my opinion make them more vulnerable as their mobility is significantly decreased, and as shards they are protected. 37 minutes ago, therunner said: Would allow for large scale terrorist attacks, which would inevitably lead to try to assert control. Would it? After the first two uses no nuclear weapons have ever been used again, they might threaten it, but how many organizations would actually risk it? 38 minutes ago, therunner said: Lead to research into suppression fabrials, to create protected areas where such reaction is not possible (either via suppressing just anti-light if possible, or all light). That isn't possible, as even under the Siblings suppression Stormlight/anti-stormlight reactions could occur.
therunner he/him Posted August 8, 2023 Posted August 8, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Frustration said: How? It's a vacuum tube and an instrument. Not exactly something you can track. Not to mention Raboniel going out of her way to make sure everyone had it, and Navani's dedication to open knowledge. And knowledge. Navani is dedicated to open knowledge, but she is not stupid. And you need to be able to hear Rhythms, and have proper Intent, neither of which is not confirmed to be possible for everyone. However, this has no bearing on the fact that any government could still make it illegal. Making bombs is feasible and yet is illegal in our world, same concept. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Staying in the CR won't save them, and it would actually in my opinion make them more vulnerable as their mobility is significantly decreased, and as shards they are protected. In CR they are out of range of most people, and they can block access more easily (only 2 perpendicularities and 10 oathgates). CR is far safer for them than PR. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Would it? After the first two uses no nuclear weapons have ever been used again, they might threaten it, but how many organizations would actually risk it? Yes it would. Your scenario presupposes that anyone can create anti-stormlight and hence basically nukes. You get equivalent of lone wolf terrorist with nukes, of course they would use it. Official organizations would not, as others would immediately destroy them (for good reason), however when small groups of people can do that, that threat is meaningless, since they would be basically untraceable, since as you mention they just need vacuum tubes and instruments. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: That isn't possible, as even under the Siblings suppression Stormlight/anti-stormlight reactions could occur. Sibling was not fully corrupted, and I imagine the design could be improved upon. I doubt that Sibling is peak of what is possible with fabrials. Edited August 8, 2023 by therunner
Frustration Posted August 8, 2023 Author Posted August 8, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, therunner said: And knowledge. Navani is dedicated to open knowledge, but she is not stupid. She really is. She's intelligent don't get me wrong, but she is stupid. She already gave the secret away once and to her enemies. And the Fused would definitely share the knowledge. 1 hour ago, therunner said: And you need to be able to hear Rhythms, and have proper Intent, neither of which is not confirmed to be possible for everyone. No you don't, simply having an instrument that can play the right tone is enough as we see with Raboniel. And anyone can provide intent, we see this in awakening. And beyond that the tones are the same as the notes in one of the major music theories on the planet, most instruments will be able to play them, and as Navani showed shortly before bonding the Sibling you can invert Tones by intent if you can hear them. 1 hour ago, therunner said: However, this has no bearing on the fact that any government could still make it illegal. Making bombs is feasible and yet is illegal in our world, same concept. You can make breathing illegal, people are still going to do it. The only things that are truly illegal are the things that are enforced, and enforcement here is just about impossible. You might be able to limit the size by limiting the size of gemstones, but then you make every fabrial that relies on them weaker, not to mention that gemhearts can't be regulated, or that they can easily get around that by using multiple smaller gems. 1 hour ago, therunner said: In CR they are out of range of most people, and they can block access more easily (only 2 perpendicularities and 10 oathgates). How do you block access when they can drop actual anti-investiture bombs through? If someone wanted to kill a spren they very easily could. Not to mention their economy relies on constant access to the PR. 1 hour ago, therunner said: Yes it would. Your scenario presupposes that anyone can create anti-stormlight and hence basically nukes. You get equivalent of lone wolf terrorist with nukes, of course they would use it. Official organizations would not, as others would immediately destroy them (for good reason), however when small groups of people can do that, that threat is meaningless, since they would be basically untraceable, since as you mention they just need vacuum tubes and instruments. If everyone has one so do their victims, and we're back to Mutually Assured Destruction. 1 hour ago, therunner said: Sibling was not fully corrupted, and I imagine the design could be improved upon. I doubt that Sibling is peak of what is possible with fabrials. I would be beyond stunned if it wasn't the most powerful though. Edited August 8, 2023 by Frustration
therunner he/him Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 7 hours ago, Frustration said: She really is. She's intelligent don't get me wrong, but she is stupid. She already gave the secret away once and to her enemies. Yeah, she got carried away once and she was trying to take precautions against giving the secret away. She did not do it on purpose. So she would not just freely disseminate it. 7 hours ago, Frustration said: No you don't, simply having an instrument that can play the right tone is enough as we see with Raboniel. Raboniel hears Rhythms, is several millenia old, and has knowledge of realmatics. She is not counter argument that anyone can make it. 7 hours ago, Frustration said: And anyone can provide intent, we see this in awakening. Where? It is the person shaping the Investiture that provides Intent. At most we see Ruin provide Intent for Hemalurgy, however he was also manipulating/influencing the people involved. 7 hours ago, Frustration said: And beyond that the tones are the same as the notes in one of the major music theories on the planet, most instruments will be able to play them, and as Navani showed shortly before bonding the Sibling you can invert Tones by intent if you can hear them. It is the same Tone, but not. It took what, weeks for Navani to figure out how to properly form Intent to form it? 8 hours ago, Frustration said: You can make breathing illegal, people are still going to do it. The only things that are truly illegal are the things that are enforced, and enforcement here is just about impossible. You might be able to limit the size by limiting the size of gemstones, but then you make every fabrial that relies on them weaker, not to mention that gemhearts can't be regulated, or that they can easily get around that by using multiple smaller gems. So, you agree with me that governments would make it illegal? Difficulty of enforcement changes nothing, see war on drugs. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: How do you block access when they can drop actual anti-investiture bombs through? If someone wanted to kill a spren they very easily could. Sure, and so could do the spren to Roshar. MAD? This just gives them more reason to strictly regulate access to CR not less. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Not to mention their economy relies on constant access to the PR. Economies change, I doubt their economy was always based on interstellar trade. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: If everyone has one so do their victims, and we're back to Mutually Assured Destruction. No we are not. It is like pipe bombs, good luck tracking the perpetrator. If somehow you knew who did then yes, we would have MAD. But the only reason MAD works is because everyone know who has bombs, and they can track if they used them or not. Plus you need time to react. If everyone can use them, and you cannot track if they used them or not, MAD is not applicable at all. How would you know who placed the bomb that killed you, much less react on it? Or if it killed your loved one, how would you know who placed it? Without that information you cannot respond, and hence MAD cannot function. So you will end up in world where nukes are go to weapons for terrorists, because unless they admit to it, it is difficult to trace it back to them. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: I would be beyond stunned if it wasn't the most powerful though. I think you will end up stunned then. Power alone cannot make up for e.g. inefficient design, or imperfect design. 1
alder24 Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Frustration said: Not to mention Raboniel going out of her way to make sure everyone had it, and Navani's dedication to open knowledge. Navani wants to share the knowledge with scientists, not everybody. Fused will keep it to themself and never give it to people or Singers, as that would give them a weapon to kill them. 13 hours ago, Frustration said: If everyone has one so do their victims, and we're back to Mutually Assured Destruction. No we're not. We have a nuclear winter. If everyone has nukes (this assumption is stupid for multiple reasons, but your thread, your rules) it takes just a few people who are willing to use it and don't care about consequences. There are potentially millions of people ready to die for some extremist cause. Give them nukes, they will blow as many people as possibly just because they can. Give sociopaths nuke, some will use it. In your scenario you literally can't prevent them from doing that. There are people who will shoot other people when they want to commit suicide, give them nuke, they will vaporize entire cities. And some will just blow up empty fields and forests for fun, because they can and they have nukes. You can’t stop those people no matter how hard you try. Depending on estimates, you need just a 100 of them with 1 Mt nuke. That’s why this assumption is just weird. Once you give everyone nukes it’s over. You can’t have any police or control after you gave people WMD. You have to prevent them from getting them in the first place, which is very doable, and your arguments against that are just bad in my opinion. A vacuum tube isn't easily accessible. I want to point out that it was called "a Thaylen vacuum tube, from the Royal Institute of Barometric Studies" (RoW ch 97). This sounds expensive and exclusive, only few could afford it, only when Thaylen agreed to sell them. If Thaylen seals them off, nobody can make anti-light. Tuning forks were a state secret for who knows how many years, Anti-light won't be easily accessible. Side note: this vacuum tube makes no sense for me. Shouldn't the light be attuned to its tone via SR not PR? In that case vacuum would make no difference. Edited August 9, 2023 by alder24
Frustration Posted August 9, 2023 Author Posted August 9, 2023 8 hours ago, therunner said: So she would not just freely disseminate it. She doesn't have a choice, if the Coalition is going to win the war they will need everyone to know how to make anti-voidlight with how little they have. 8 hours ago, therunner said: Raboniel hears Rhythms, is several millenia old, and has knowledge of realmatics. She is not counter argument that anyone can make it. Raboniel didn't make the first plate, but she did use it, and was stunned at the results. Navani theorized that the plate just had to be made correctly. 8 hours ago, therunner said: Where? It is the person shaping the Investiture that provides Intent. No each awakening requires Intent, if some people were incapable of providing Intent they would be unable to awaken, but everyone can. Spoiler Phantine Could you train your pet parrot to Awaken things, if it learned to say the necessary Commands? Brandon Sanderson Afraid not. Intention is important. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3661 8 hours ago, therunner said: It is the same Tone, but not. It took what, weeks for Navani to figure out how to properly form Intent to form it? To figure out how to get a plate to create the anti-tone, nit to get her intent right. Later on Odium attempts to influence her and she hears his Tone, and can simply by choice invert it. 8 hours ago, therunner said: So, you agree with me that governments would make it illegal? They could try, but just like Congress declared the metric system the preferred measuring system of the US(which they did) doesn't mean people will obey them(which we don't). The only people that would actually impact are the people who obey by choice, as there would be no way to force them. So it might as well be legal for all the effect it would have. 8 hours ago, therunner said: Difficulty of enforcement changes nothing, see war on drugs. See how literally anyone who wants them can have them. Now imagine drugs could easily be synthesized by anyone with no way to tell if they were doing it or not. It doesn't matter what kind of enforcement you try you will not be able to prevent anyone who wants one from making one. Not to mention you won't be able to do any enforcement outside of big cities. How do you stop people three days journey from the nearest city from making them? 8 hours ago, therunner said: Sure, and so could do the spren to Roshar. MAD? No as they would do incredible damage to themselves trying to make Honor's anti-tone. Not to mention they only have so much Stormlight. 8 hours ago, therunner said: This just gives them more reason to strictly regulate access to CR not less. You can't. They can't leave the CR, and the area around Cultivations perpendicularity is an ocean. How do you stop anyone who wants to from just walking through? 8 hours ago, therunner said: Economies change, I doubt their economy was always based on interstellar trade. It's not the interstellar trade, it's the Stormlight. They can't get it in the CR, and they need it for everything from weapons to furniture, to changing their appearance, to healing themselves. They need Stormlight. 8 hours ago, therunner said: No we are not. It is like pipe bombs, good luck tracking the perpetrator. If somehow you knew who did then yes, we would have MAD. But the only reason MAD works is because everyone know who has bombs, and they can track if they used them or not. Plus you need time to react. If everyone can use them, and you cannot track if they used them or not, MAD is not applicable at all. How would you know who placed the bomb that killed you, much less react on it? Or if it killed your loved one, how would you know who placed it? Without that information you cannot respond, and hence MAD cannot function. A reasonable point. 8 hours ago, therunner said: 8 hours ago, therunner said: I think you will end up stunned then. Power alone cannot make up for e.g. inefficient design, or imperfect design. The suppression was added by Honor and Cultivation, I don't think you can improve on that. Raboniel spent thousands of years trying, and her latest attempt was much weaker that the Sibling. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Navani wants to share the knowledge with scientists, not everybody. Fused will keep it to themself and never give it to people or Singers, as that would give them a weapon to kill them. Simply don't give them voidlight. It's not like they give them Raysium anyway, and that's what would be needed. Anti-Stormlight on the other hand every fused will need, and I can't see a world where they make it themselves. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: No we're not. We have a nuclear winter. If everyone has nukes (this assumption is stupid for multiple reasons, but your thread, your rules) it takes just a few people who are willing to use it and don't care about consequences. There are potentially millions of people ready to die for some extremist cause. Give them nukes, they will blow as many people as possibly just because they can. Give sociopaths nuke, some will use it. In your scenario you literally can't prevent them from doing that. There are people who will shoot other people when they want to commit suicide, give them nuke, they will vaporize entire cities. I'd note this won't happen for a long time, the rise in suicide and random indiscriminate killing is incredibly recent IRL, driven largely by the isolation the internet brought. However let's say this does happen immediately, we've already established that these people don't care about the law or human lives. How do you stop them from making these devices? Infinity easier than trying to regulate something so easy to make, is just to not urbanize, live in small communities, and be really nice to everyone as you never know what might set them off. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: And some will just blow up empty fields and forests for fun, because they can and they have nukes. You're right I totally would do that, that sounds awesome. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Depending on estimates, you need just a 100 of them with 1 Mt nuke. For? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: That’s why this assumption is just weird. Once you give everyone nukes it’s over. You can’t have any police or control after you gave people WMD. You have to prevent them from getting them in the first place, which is very doable, and your arguments against that are just bad in my opinion. No you can't, think about the demographics of Roshar for a second. Kaladin grew up in a town where there was only one real 'police' figure. And they were the only authority for miles. How do you keep those people from making anti-investiture weapons? Your premise relies on high population density, and a lot of law enforcement, neither of which exist outside of a few very specific areas. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: A vacuum tube isn't easily accessible. I want to point out that it was called "a Thaylen vacuum tube, from the Royal Institute of Barometric Studies" (RoW ch 97). This sounds expensive and exclusive, only few could afford it, only when Thaylen agreed to sell them. If Thaylen seals them off, nobody can make anti-light. Do you have any idea how easy they are to make? I've got several, you probably do as well, heck Kaladin and his dad have some. All you need is a simple syringe, or even just some rubber, or whatever Roshar's equivalent is and some time on your hands. Now they would be harder to use, but substantially easier to make. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Tuning forks were a state secret for who knows how many years, But not anymore. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Anti-light won't be easily accessible. Let's talk about all the useful applications of the anti-stormlight tone actually. What happens when you make a fabrial, let's use the water attracting one as an example, and it starts pulling the blood out of everyone nearby? And I use this example because it happened. Simply playing the anti-Honor tone would force the Stormlight out of the gems and turn it off. Do you really think Navani wouldn't let others know about this? And not to mention Roshar has had WMD's for millennium in Shardblades, such destruction is considered normal. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Side note: this vacuum tube makes no sense for me. Shouldn't the light be attuned to its tone via SR not PR? In that case vacuum would make no difference. It's just about the illusion of separation or something. It's perceived as separated and that works. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either but it works.
alder24 Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: They could try, but just like Congress declared the metric system the preferred measuring system of the US(which they did) doesn't mean people will obey them(which we don't). Metric is officially used in many governmental facilities, especially related to NASA. And the US government didn't enforce the use of metric, if they wanted to convert, they could make laws and teach only metric, force every company to label their products with metric etc. People would adapt, not have a "black market of imperial units”. 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: No as they would do incredible damage to themselves trying to make Honor's anti-tone. Not to mention they only have so much Stormlight. No greater than Raboniel's soul suffered. They can use Voidlight and Anti-Voidlight. 13 minutes ago, Frustration said: You can't. They can't leave the CR, and the area around Cultivations perpendicularity is an ocean. How do you stop anyone who wants to from just walking through? Boats. 14 minutes ago, Frustration said: They need Stormlight. They need investiture, they can start requesting unkeyed Dor. Much harder to get. 15 minutes ago, Frustration said: Simply don't give them voidlight. Every Regal can get their own Voidlight by praying and needs it. Everstorm gives them Voidlight. How? 16 minutes ago, Frustration said: It's not like they give them Raysium anyway, and that's what would be needed. Singers can do it without Raysium, sing the tone of Odium and guide the Voidlight into a gem with Anti-Voidlight. 17 minutes ago, Frustration said: Anti-Stormlight on the other hand every fused will need, and I can't see a world where they make it themselves. They can have a special group of loyal Regals making it for them and distributing it. 18 minutes ago, Frustration said: I'd note this won't happen for a long time, the rise in suicide and random indiscriminate killing is incredibly recent IRL, driven largely by the isolation the internet brought. Yes, because historically speaking entire towns weren't slaughtered because they didn't open their gates, or rebellions happened, or crusades, or mongols, or huns or… I can go on and on. 20 minutes ago, Frustration said: However let's say this does happen immediately, we've already established that these people don't care about the law or human lives. How do you stop them from making these devices? Restrict knowledge and accessibility to devices used to make it (vacuum tube and Raysium dagger, tuning forks etc). 21 minutes ago, Frustration said: Infinity easier than trying to regulate something so easy to make, is just to not urbanize, live in small communities, and be really nice to everyone as you never know what might set them off. This won't work. You're dead because you live with crazy people with nukes. 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: You're right I totally would do that, that sounds awesome. See? 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: For? A nuclear winter. 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: No you can't, think about the demographics of Roshar for a second. Kaladin grew up in a town where there was only one real 'police' figure. And they were the only authority for miles. How do you keep those people from making anti-investiture weapons? Your premise relies on high population density, and a lot of law enforcement, neither of which exist outside of a few very specific areas. Kaladin won't be able to make a nuke if he doesn't know it's possible or how to do it. 24 minutes ago, Frustration said: Do you have any idea how easy they are to make? I've got several, you probably do as well, heck Kaladin and his dad have some. All you need is a simple syringe, or even just some rubber, or whatever Roshar's equivalent is and some time on your hands. Now they would be harder to use, but substantially easier to make. Right, we have it in a modern, industrialized world with a highly educated population. For an average Rosharan this would be like magic. 25 minutes ago, Frustration said: But not anymore. Yes, Navani and her few scholars know about it now. Only. 29 minutes ago, Frustration said: What happens when you make a fabrial, let's use the water attracting one as an example, and it starts pulling the blood out of everyone nearby? And I use this example because it happened. Where? 29 minutes ago, Frustration said: Do you really think Navani wouldn't let others know about this? Share with scholars not random people. 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: And not to mention Roshar has had WMD's for millennium in Shardblades, such destruction is considered normal. No. The scale is simply incomparable.
Frustration Posted August 9, 2023 Author Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: teach only metric, They tried 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Force every company to label their products with metric They pretty much all do. We just don't care. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: No greater than Raboniel's soul suffered. They can use Voidlight and Anti-Voidlight. Something that caused her incredible soul splitting pain after hearing it a single time, and was magnified a thousand times by touching an anti-voidlight gem. Even Hoid doesn't fight that kind of pain. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Boats. Because those will survive an anti-investiture attack? 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: They need investiture, they can start requesting unkeyed Dor. Much harder to get. A lot harder to get, not to mention it makes you entirely dependent on the IRE, basically turning every spren nation into a vassal state. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Every Regal can get their own Voidlight by praying Provided Odium allows it. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Everstorm gives them Voidlight. No it doesn't. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Singers can do it without Raysium, sing the tone of Odium and guide the Voidlight into a gem with Anti-Voidlight. They can make it, but without the Raysium to draw the Fused Soul out they can't be killed by it. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: They can have a special group of loyal Regals making it for them and distributing it. For all of the Fused? Not to mention all the regals are loyal. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Yes, because historically speaking entire towns weren't slaughtered because they didn't open their gates, or rebellions happened, or crusades, or mongols, or huns or… I can go on and on. Yes because they were totally killed with no warning or way out, and none of the most successful empires were made through mostly peaceful annexation. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Restrict knowledge and accessibility to devices used to make it (vacuum tube and Raysium dagger, tuning forks etc). Only the vacuum tube is needed, and as I said they are easy to make. Not to mention you are begging for an Orwellian police state. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: This won't work. You're dead because you live with crazy people with nukes. Why not? Give me one good reason why that wouldn't work. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: See? That life with these devices is undeniably cooler than without them? Yes I see that. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: A nuclear winter. Nuclear winter is an unproven hypothetical, one that relies on massive fires which Roshar's rock surface and weekly Highstorms could not maintain. Therefore nuclear winter is not possible on Roshar. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Kaladin won't be able to make a nuke if he doesn't know it's possible or how to do it. How do you propose to keep them from knowing, you have to tell just about everyone in order to win the war in the first place. Not to mention knowledge of tones is what will propel Roshar's industry forwards. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Right, we have it in a modern, industrialized world with a highly educated population. For an average Rosharan this would be like magic. Yes, Navani and her few scholars know about it now. Only. So keep people in the dark because you know better than them? Not to mention Navani specifically called out the Theylan artifabrians for keeping the tuning forks a secret. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Where? WoR 993 Navani talks about it, I do not have the chapter number, but it's during the battle for Narak when she sets up a fabrial to take water out of the air. 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: Share with scholars not random people. Because the scholars are so much more trustworthy? Do you have any idea how elitist that sounds? 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: No. The scale is simply incomparable. They seem pretty comparable to me, thousands dead either way you slice it. Edited August 9, 2023 by Frustration
alder24 Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: Something that caused her incredible soul splitting pain after hearing it a single time, and was magnified a thousand times by touching an anti-voidlight gem. Even Hoid doesn't fight that kind of pain. You can touch with tools. 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: Because those will survive an anti-investiture attack? Far away from perpendicularity - yes. 13 minutes ago, Frustration said: Provided Odium allows it. I don't know if Odium can not allow it. 15 minutes ago, Frustration said: No it doesn't. I was quite sure it did, but not to humans. 16 minutes ago, Frustration said: For all of the Fused? Not to mention all the regals are loyal. Yes and Yes... 18 minutes ago, Frustration said: Why not? Give me one good reason why that wouldn't work. I gave you. 19 minutes ago, Frustration said: How do you propose to keep them from knowing, you have to tell just about everyone in order to win the war in the first place. Not to mention knowledge of tones is what will propel Roshar's industry forwards. You don't have to tell everybody, just a group of trusted people. They won't be throwing nukes at each other constantly, at best using anti-light to kill spren and fused and sometimes bomb a strategic position. 21 minutes ago, Frustration said: WoR 993 Navani talks about it, I do not have the chapter number, but it's during the battle for Narak when she sets up a fabrial to take water out of the air. It didn't happen. She was afraid it would happen because she didn't have a time to test it. 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: They seem pretty comparable to me, thousands dead either way you slice it. Shardblades are machine guns, anti-light is nuke. Not comparable. This discussion turned back to what it was in the Mistborn sub-forum. I don't see any sense in continuing this back and forth.
Frustration Posted August 9, 2023 Author Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: This discussion turned back to what it was in the Mistborn sub-forum. I don't see any sense in continuing this back and forth. I'm not making you stay. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: You can touch with tools. But you can't protect yourself from the Tone. Not to mention you would quickly lose your supply of Stormlight. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Far away from perpendicularity - yes. Too far to keep them from entering. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I don't know if Odium can not allow it. He has a new vessel, he could. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I was quite sure it did, but not to humans. It does not. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Yes and Yes... So give thousands of Regals the knowledge, but none of them are going to share? And more than that, then they aren't fighting despite being your best soldiers. And why limit it to them? Without Raysium they can't kill you. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I gave you. You said: "You're living with crazy people." That's not a reason, that's a hypothetical. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: You don't have to tell everybody, just a group of trusted people. They won't be throwing nukes at each other constantly, at best using anti-light to kill spren and fused and sometimes bomb a strategic position. And how do you know that? What makes these people so much better than everyone else? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: It didn't happen. She was afraid it would happen because she didn't have a time to test it. It did happen in the past, and she worried it would happen again. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Shardblades are machine guns, anti-light is nuke. Not comparable. They really are. 1,000 people dead is 1,000 people dead. There are only a few places on Roshar where you could get more people into a blast radius. The difference comes in when you have multiple people with those weapons, not on the individual level. Edited August 9, 2023 by Frustration
alder24 Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: It did happen in the past, and she worried it would happen again. It didn't, WoR ch 82 Quote “We really should have had more time to test this,” she warned to Dalinar, folding her arms. “Attractors are new inventions. I’m still half afraid this thing will suck the blood out of anyone who touches it.” 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: So give thousands of Regals the knowledge, but none of them are going to share? And more than that, then they aren't fighting despite being your best soldiers. Not every type of Regal fights, like Venli. 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: You said: "You're living with crazy people." That's not a reason, that's a hypothetical. I said more than that, but yeah, let's shorten it to this, which is still true no matter what you say. You said it yourself that you would blow up a nuke just for fun. You proved my point but you still are denying it. 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: There are only a few places on Roshar where you could get more people into a blast radius. You realize that the blast radius of a nuke is enormous? And we're talking here about anti-matter bomb.
Frustration Posted August 9, 2023 Author Posted August 9, 2023 36 minutes ago, alder24 said: It didn't, WoR ch 82 ...hmmm. I'll have to look into this again. 37 minutes ago, alder24 said: Not every type of Regal fights, like Venli. How many envoyforms are there? A voice for the important Fused, but those are the ones who run their staff, so they can't make anti-stormlight. Other than them you have warriors. 40 minutes ago, alder24 said: I said more than that, but yeah, let's shorten it to this, which is still true no matter what you say. You said it yourself that you would blow up a nuke just for fun. You proved my point but you still are denying it. And why would that destroy my village? I would totally set some bombs off, but not in the middle of town, just like people have campfires but don't light them in their attics. 41 minutes ago, alder24 said: You realize that the blast radius of a nuke is enormous? And we're talking here about anti-matter bomb. You realize how low the population density of pre-industrial worlds is right? Large towns at this tech level might have a few hundred people at most. The only places you could get more than a few thousand in the blast radius you could make with without liquid or Solid Stormlight, are the warcamps, Azimir, and potentially Urithiru. And even then you would have to be really rich to get enough gemstones.
alder24 Posted August 9, 2023 Posted August 9, 2023 18 minutes ago, Frustration said: How many envoyforms are there? A voice for the important Fused, but those are the ones who run their staff, so they can't make anti-stormlight. Other than them you have warriors. Nightform is for predicting the future, Relayform is used by scouts, Smokeform is lightweaving, and there is even one that heals. And that's from forms that we know exist. There are more Regal forms unknown to us. 20 minutes ago, Frustration said: And why would that destroy my village? I would totally set some bombs off, but not in the middle of town, just like people have campfires but don't light them in their attics. See, this discussion is pointless now. I didn't say you will blow up a village, just that you will use the bomb for fun. Not in the village or any populated area, which I noted in the first post. You are willing to use it. There are people that will do it in a populated area as explained in my first post in this discussion. 23 minutes ago, Frustration said: You realize how low the population density of pre-industrial worlds is right? Large towns at this tech level might have a few hundred people at most. Yes, Kholinar definitely has "hundreds of people". Yes, Alethi war camps definitely have "hundreds of people" in them. Kharbranth or Azimir as well. There are thousands of people living in large towns, tens or hundreds of thousands in big cities. You need just one person in every major location like that and those are gone, millions of people are dead. Administrative hearts of nations are gone, whole nations are in chaos. Look what happened in Jah Keved after just the king and a few Highprinces died.
Frustration Posted August 9, 2023 Author Posted August 9, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Nightform is for predicting the future, And guarding doors to where the Radiants are at, something you would assume would be left for soldiers. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Relayform is used by scouts, Smokeform is lightweaving, and there is even one that heals. And that's from forms that we know exist. There are more Regal forms unknown to us. And those are both military positions, not assembly, and you still ignore the fact that without Raysium they aren't a threat to the Fused. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: See, this discussion is pointless now. I didn't say you will blow up a village, just that you will use the bomb for fun. Not in the village or any populated area, which I noted in the first post. You are willing to use it. And that makes me a crazy person? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: There are people that will do it in a populated area as explained in my first post in this discussion. Which I already answered but I'll do it again. 1. They don't exist yet. 2. You can't stop them. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Yes, Kholinar definitely has "hundreds of people". Large city, not a Town, and it is one of the largest cities in the world. That would be like using Tokyo or New York to say that most modern cities have millions of people rather than tens of thousands. And even Kholinar has a lower population than London at the same tech level. Spoiler ebilutionist How would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them? Brandon Sanderson The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth. The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out short order without soulcasters. Supply lines are just not an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production. Really, warfare is where they've learned to extend themselves, and depend on the soulcasters. Remember, gemstones in them DO break, so you do still need a ready supply of emeralds. The larger, the better. ebilutionist Very interesting on the food logistics of Alethkar - I never did quite imagine Kholinar was smaller than say, Elendel, but the technological progress there explains it. Given how slow food transportation is, I would presume fresh food is a no-go. Are spices and preserved food selling well in Roshar, then? As for population centers, is Kholinar the largest around, or are other places a lot larger? Brandon Sanderson There's a reason that Herdazian food (which makes soulcast meat taste good) is popular these days. Azimir is larger in population than Kholinar. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but far smaller than an Earth population center (like London) at a comparable time. The warcamps had it beat by a lot--depending on how you view the warcamps. (As one city, or ten small ones.) ebilutionist Does that just mean Herdazian food is incredibly spice-heavy, then? Also, why is Soulcast food bland? Is it due to the nature of the object (changing food to food makes it tastier than stone to food), or just because the Soulcaster lacks practice, like Jasnah did with strawberry jam? Brandon Sanderson Flavorful, rather than spicy. Most western food is already spicy. The Herdazians offer something a little different, and are pretty good with soulcast meat. The portability is also a bit of a revolution. Soulcasting anything other than the basic Essence requires some innate knowledge and practice. People could learn to soulcast better food, but it would have to be a Radiant with control over the process. The soulcaster fabrials are far more rigid in what they can create. ebilutionist As for soulcasting - now that is... interesting. So are Surgebinding fabrials more rigid in general? And what of an Honorblade when a non-Herald uses it? Brandon Sanderson A soulcaster is built to do a certain thing, and can do that certain thing well, but without as much flexibility. It is the difference between having a computer output a picture of a circle--following some inputs such as size and some changes to shape--and having an artist who can draw what you want. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3824 So Kholinar(going by 1796 the invention of vaccines for my London date) would have much fewer than 575-600 thousand people, probably looking at close to 400,000 as one of the largest cities on the planet. And that was before the Singer invasion, so it's probably a lot smaller now. A few hundred in large towns, a few thousand to a city. Which is what I was trying to say, I might have been unclear. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: You need just one person in every major location like that and those are gone, millions of people are dead. So it's probably not a good idea to live in a big city, and as I said before, live in small communities. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Administrative hearts of nations are gone, whole nations are in chaos. Look what happened in Jah Keved after just the king and a few Highprinces died. Jah Keved was entirely a civil war because petty rulers with too much power wanted the crown, in your proposed situation those guys are all dead. Anyone outside of a major city(so the vast majority of the population) can just go about their lives as normal, except now they don't have to pay taxes. Edited August 9, 2023 by Frustration
therunner he/him Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Frustration said: They tried They pretty much all do. We just don't care. You realize that most cultures on planet are not as individualistic as americans are right? Rosharans don't really act particularly american in this regard. Most kinda understand that to get social cohesion you need rules, like on restricting weapons for example. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: And that makes me a crazy person? Nuking things just for fun? Yeah, it kinda does. You would kill hundreds if not thousands of living creatures for 'fun'. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: Which I already answered but I'll do it again. 1. They don't exist yet. 2. You can't stop them. Large populated areas exists, and so do crazy people. Yes you can, restrict knowledge and materials for making the bombs (vacuum tubes, plates -> which require hearing of Rhythms to create). At least half of Rosharan population can't read, much less understand how to make vacuum tubes, so you restrict that. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: Large city, not a Town, and it is one of the largest cities in the world. That would be like using Tokyo or New York to say that most modern cities have millions of people rather than tens of thousands. But there are still such cities, and such cities would be natural targets. And since most government is centralized, with 10-11 bombs you could kill few percent of Roshar population, i.e. millions. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: And even Kholinar has a lower population than London at the same tech level. Reveal hidden contents ebilutionist How would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them? Brandon Sanderson The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth. The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out short order without soulcasters. Supply lines are just not an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production. Really, warfare is where they've learned to extend themselves, and depend on the soulcasters. Remember, gemstones in them DO break, so you do still need a ready supply of emeralds. The larger, the better. ebilutionist Very interesting on the food logistics of Alethkar - I never did quite imagine Kholinar was smaller than say, Elendel, but the technological progress there explains it. Given how slow food transportation is, I would presume fresh food is a no-go. Are spices and preserved food selling well in Roshar, then? As for population centers, is Kholinar the largest around, or are other places a lot larger? Brandon Sanderson There's a reason that Herdazian food (which makes soulcast meat taste good) is popular these days. Azimir is larger in population than Kholinar. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but far smaller than an Earth population center (like London) at a comparable time. The warcamps had it beat by a lot--depending on how you view the warcamps. (As one city, or ten small ones.) ebilutionist Does that just mean Herdazian food is incredibly spice-heavy, then? Also, why is Soulcast food bland? Is it due to the nature of the object (changing food to food makes it tastier than stone to food), or just because the Soulcaster lacks practice, like Jasnah did with strawberry jam? Brandon Sanderson Flavorful, rather than spicy. Most western food is already spicy. The Herdazians offer something a little different, and are pretty good with soulcast meat. The portability is also a bit of a revolution. Soulcasting anything other than the basic Essence requires some innate knowledge and practice. People could learn to soulcast better food, but it would have to be a Radiant with control over the process. The soulcaster fabrials are far more rigid in what they can create. ebilutionist As for soulcasting - now that is... interesting. So are Surgebinding fabrials more rigid in general? And what of an Honorblade when a non-Herald uses it? Brandon Sanderson A soulcaster is built to do a certain thing, and can do that certain thing well, but without as much flexibility. It is the difference between having a computer output a picture of a circle--following some inputs such as size and some changes to shape--and having an artist who can draw what you want. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3824 So Kholinar(going by 1796 the invention of vaccines for my London date) would have much fewer than 575-600 thousand people, probably looking at close to 400,000 as one of the largest cities on the planet. So Kholinar had several hundred thousands, Azimir was larger (because unlike Alethi, Azish are good at supply lines), and war camps were 'far larger', so feasibly million. So, still 10 bombs could kill in neighborhood of ~5 million people? Shardblades have nothing on that level of destruction (not to mention that those bombs won/t just kill people but destroy building and environment). 13 hours ago, Frustration said: They really are. 1,000 people dead is 1,000 people dead. 1000 people in few hours, vs 100 000 in less then a second. There is a big difference here. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: So it's probably not a good idea to live in a big city, and as I said before, live in small communities. So on one hand you claim people won't accept restriction on making nukes, but then you turn around and say millions of people will change their way of living? 10 hours ago, Frustration said: Jah Keved was entirely a civil war because petty rulers with too much power wanted the crown, in your proposed situation those guys are all dead. Anyone outside of a major city(so the vast majority of the population) can just go about their lives as normal, except now they don't have to pay taxes. That is hilariously naive viewpoint. 1. Most of those guys won't be dead, because nobles have their own lands they govern and spend most of the time there. So while some will be killed, most won't, and they will start vying for power. 2. Neighboring countries will take advantage of the chaos to try and conquer those lands, since they are no longer protected by central force. If those are nuked too, you will have a lot of petty warlords rising up fighting to conquer as much as they can. Power vacuum never leads to improvement in the short term. 3. Instead of taxes they will pay 'tribute' to nearest warlord/bandit leader. How do you propose village like Heathstone protect themselves from someone like Amaram or Sadeas? So the lives won't go 'as normal', they will descend into the usual chaos of wars of conquest, with the usual r**e, pillage and burn. How do you think countries arose in the first place? There were bunch of villages, and someone said 'I'm gonna take that', and did not take no for an answer. Edited August 10, 2023 by therunner 1
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 3 hours ago, therunner said: Nuking things just for fun? Yeah, it kinda does. You would kill hundreds if not thousands of living creatures for 'fun'. And that makes me crazier than doing testing? Government tests would intentionally try making the largest weapons they could, I have to limit the size for my own safety. @alder24 since posing this as inevitable will not work I will propose a hypothetical, because you are an insightful person and I value your perspective. Let's say that during the War both sides mass produce anti-investiture weapons, to the point that just about everyone knows how to make them. What do you think the short and long term consequences of that would be?
therunner he/him Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Frustration said: And that makes me crazier than doing testing? Are you doing it to test anything or for fun? Because your comment sounded like for fun. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Government tests would intentionally try making the largest weapons they could, I have to limit the size for my own safety. If you are testing, what are you testing? And why do you have to test on your own, instead of with others? 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: Let's say that during the War both sides mass produce anti-investiture weapons, to the point that just about everyone knows how to make them. What do you think the short and long term consequences of that would be? Not alder, but same as I stated above. If basically everyone know how to make them, you get horribly powerful terrorist and break down of social order. 1
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 18 minutes ago, therunner said: Are you doing it to test anything or for fun? Because your comment sounded like for fun. If you are testing, what are you testing? And why do you have to test on your own, instead of with others? 100% for fun, but I don't see why that changes anything.
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Frustration said: And that makes me a crazy person? Did I say that? Do you understand the implications of using nukes for fun? First it kills everything in the area of detonation, every animal, insect or a plant in a huge area, it destroys the land and agriculture, and scares the living hell out of everyone in an enormous radius. Secondly it sets up an example. People will look at you and say "if he can I can too" and will use their own nukes. Then there will be people angry at others that will say "if they can blow up stuff for fun, I can use it in my just and important cause" and will start blowing people up. And then there would be others that will see people using nukes with no repercussions and will start blowing up entire cities, because they are crazy. That's the reason why the US didn't use nukes in the Korean war, as it would set an example and say to every other nuclear state that they can use their weapons in every other conflict they want. Just because. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Which I already answered but I'll do it again. 1. They don't exist yet. They've always existed. And always will be. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: 2. You can't stop them. That's my point. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Large city, not a Town For me a town and a city mean the same. But that's a translation problem. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: And even Kholinar has a lower population than London at the same tech level. Reveal hidden contents ebilutionist How would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them? Brandon Sanderson The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth. The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out short order without soulcasters. Supply lines are just not an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production. Really, warfare is where they've learned to extend themselves, and depend on the soulcasters. Remember, gemstones in them DO break, so you do still need a ready supply of emeralds. The larger, the better. ebilutionist Very interesting on the food logistics of Alethkar - I never did quite imagine Kholinar was smaller than say, Elendel, but the technological progress there explains it. Given how slow food transportation is, I would presume fresh food is a no-go. Are spices and preserved food selling well in Roshar, then? As for population centers, is Kholinar the largest around, or are other places a lot larger? Brandon Sanderson There's a reason that Herdazian food (which makes soulcast meat taste good) is popular these days. Azimir is larger in population than Kholinar. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but far smaller than an Earth population center (like London) at a comparable time. The warcamps had it beat by a lot--depending on how you view the warcamps. (As one city, or ten small ones.) ebilutionist Does that just mean Herdazian food is incredibly spice-heavy, then? Also, why is Soulcast food bland? Is it due to the nature of the object (changing food to food makes it tastier than stone to food), or just because the Soulcaster lacks practice, like Jasnah did with strawberry jam? Brandon Sanderson Flavorful, rather than spicy. Most western food is already spicy. The Herdazians offer something a little different, and are pretty good with soulcast meat. The portability is also a bit of a revolution. Soulcasting anything other than the basic Essence requires some innate knowledge and practice. People could learn to soulcast better food, but it would have to be a Radiant with control over the process. The soulcaster fabrials are far more rigid in what they can create. ebilutionist As for soulcasting - now that is... interesting. So are Surgebinding fabrials more rigid in general? And what of an Honorblade when a non-Herald uses it? Brandon Sanderson A soulcaster is built to do a certain thing, and can do that certain thing well, but without as much flexibility. It is the difference between having a computer output a picture of a circle--following some inputs such as size and some changes to shape--and having an artist who can draw what you want. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3824 So Kholinar(going by 1796 the invention of vaccines for my London date) would have much fewer than 575-600 thousand people, probably looking at close to 400,000 as one of the largest cities on the planet. I used a different data. London 1500 had around 50k population that was 2% of English population, because Alethkar can maintain 100k active troops, while usually the medieval standard is around 1%, Alethkar would have 10 mil people, with 200k in Kholinar. But Alethkar is a militaristic society, it could maintain a bigger army, let's say 2%, so 5 mil population with 100k in Kholinar. You can disagree with "comparable time" but either way it's hundreds of thousands. The largest city in the western Europe in 1500 was Paris with 225k, second largest was Naples with half of it. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: And that was before the Singer invasion, so it's probably a lot smaller now. Kholinar was packed with refugees to its limits, now there are Singes living them with humans as workers. I would say that population didn't change or even increased. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Jah Keved was entirely a civil war because petty rulers with too much power wanted the crown, in your proposed situation those guys are all dead. Anyone outside of a major city(so the vast majority of the population) can just go about their lives as normal, except now they don't have to pay taxes. Yes, Shallan's brothers were definitely having a time of their lives, when armies crossing through their lands devastated it and they had to be rescued by Ghostbloods. What a time to be alive. What do you think would happen if a capital with a king and all administration, which also often is a production center, was all gone and nuked? Civil war. Now nobility will clash to gain power over regions or fight to protect their regions from intrusions of other nobles. Foreign powers will use this situation to gain more power themself. Everyone will be affected by armies crossing their hometown. They will take your food, farm animals and other supplies, force recruitment, and tax you, and if some village would want to disagree, they will burn it to the ground to show force. There will be nobody that would protect them, as the king is dead, the army is separated into noble houses, fighting with other nobles for control, and there is nobody who will enforce order. The very thing that happened in Jah Keved. The very thing that happened in revolutionary France, Napoleonic wars, 30 years war, war of roses, times of troubles, punic wars etc. A tale as old as time. Living in a small community isn't a solution, you are only a target with no protection. Edit: @Frustration not to mention the economic disaster that will follow. Farmers and village workers rely on selling their goods to towns and cities. Without them they have no money, without that they can't buy food, tools, supplies or do anything at all. They are doomed. This isn't sustainable. 43 minutes ago, Frustration said: And that makes me crazier than doing testing? Government tests would intentionally try making the largest weapons they could, I have to limit the size for my own safety. No, testing was and is crazy too. It was done primarily to show power to other states. 43 minutes ago, Frustration said: @alder24 since posing this as inevitable will not work I will propose a hypothetical, because you are an insightful person and I value your perspective. Let's say that during the War both sides mass produce anti-investiture weapons, to the point that just about everyone knows how to make them. What do you think the short and long term consequences of that would be? First off I disagree with your assumption, but you know that already since page 1. Secondly "during war" is a very important part. Considering only a military use, you have both sides armed to teeth with nukes ready to be used. Let's say they are aware of MAD and are cautious of using them. Eventually the war will either grind to a stalemate or one side will be pushed to the wall on one front, forced to use nukes to recover. And because most Fused are now insane or at least focused purely on ending the war at all costs, they are very likely to use nukes to gain advantage of any kind. Look at the history - WW1, first use of gas on mass scale was less than a year after the war started. It was during the second battle of Ypres, and it gave the Germans only 3 miles of land. Such a victory. After this both sides were using poison gas constantly. Even before that, in the very first month of the war, the French used tear gas (which now is a war crime). There were no boundaries, only questionable strategic decisions based on "numbers". There are no Geneva conventions on Roshar, no war crimes, no tribunals or anything like that. One side will use them, and that’s the end of Roshar sooner or later. But you took it even further - you gave everyone nukes. That's the immediate end of Roshar. Do you remember Moash chapter from OB, when he was in an occupied town and he met “local underground rulers” stocked to the brim with food and supplies, while other poorer people were starving outside the bunker? They wanted to recover their land, and were furious. Give them nukes, they will use them on Singers. If Mink had nukes he would likely use them to, on a battlefield, supply lines, not in cities. Give Parshendi nukes, they would have used them on Alethi in the war of Reckoning. And that is only considering a somewhat military use, related to the ongoing war. This excludes crazy people, terrorists and extremists of all kinds and people like you who "blow stuff up for fun". You will have a nuclear winter on Roshar, which is rich in atmospheric oxygen and fires will burn more rapidly and fiercely, destroying every forest, every field, every vegetation, every village, town, city. Highstorm won’t help as ashes will rise above them where the air is calm. They will block the sun and cause a nuclear winter. If not a nuclear winter, you will have a total collapse and destruction of society on a global scale. Everything will collapse at once. That would be worse than any Desolation ever. Massive global extinction and total collapse of everything, not only in human/Singer kingdoms, but in animal or plant kingdoms too. Edited August 10, 2023 by alder24 1
therunner he/him Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Frustration said: 100% for fun, but I don't see why that changes anything. If you don't see insanity of using anti-matter bomb for 'fun', I don't think there is any sense in continuing this conversation. Testing something can at least provide you data you would not be able to obtain otherwise, so you can make argument from necessity. But you can have fun in other ways, that is the difference. Edited August 10, 2023 by therunner
Frustration Posted August 10, 2023 Author Posted August 10, 2023 30 minutes ago, therunner said: If you don't see insanity of using anti-matter bomb for 'fun', I don't think there is any sense in continuing this conversation. Used responsibly it's just another form of explosive. 47 minutes ago, alder24 said: Look at the history - WW1, first use of gas on mass scale was less than a year after the war started. It was during the second battle of Ypres, and it gave the Germans only 3 miles of land. Such a victory. After this both sides were using poison gas constantly. Even before that, in the very first month of the war, the French used tear gas (which now is a war crime). There were no boundaries, only questionable strategic decisions based on "numbers". Everyone has the ability to create toxic gases today, both the materials and the knowledge, buying everything you need wouldn't even raise eyebrows. But you don't see that happening. 47 minutes ago, alder24 said: You will have a nuclear winter on Roshar, which is rich in atmospheric oxygen and fires will burn more rapidly and fiercely, destroying every forest, every field, every vegetation, The vegetation that can completely burry itself underground, has literal rock for an outer shell, or some other method of not being burnt to the point that people have to specifically prepare the stuff they want to burn? The wind and heat from the incoming fire would have everything retract, the fire would put itself out. 48 minutes ago, alder24 said: Highstorm won’t help as ashes will rise above them where the air is calm. The Highstorms will put out any fires that manage to somehow sustain themselves. 51 minutes ago, alder24 said: If not a nuclear winter, you will have a total collapse and destruction of society on a global scale. Everything will collapse at once. That would be worse than any Desolation ever. Massive global extinction and total collapse of everything, not only in human/Singer kingdoms, but in animal or plant kingdoms too. I don't think you get to the point where 9/10 people are dead unless the Fused are leading it. And even then they only have 10 days to do it, and they definitely don't have the time to make enough bombs for that. 56 minutes ago, alder24 said: Do you understand the implications of using nukes for fun? First it kills everything in the area of detonation, every animal, insect or a plant in a huge area, it destroys the land and agriculture, and scares the living hell out of everyone in an enormous radius. Do you know how many people use plastic explosives, TNT or other explosives for fun? We literally have a holiday we're just about everyone shoots explosives into the air, for fun. Disney is America's second largest buyer of explosives and all of it is for fun. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Living in a small community isn't a solution, you are only a target with no protection. My protection is an anti-investiture bomb. I don't need anything else.
therunner he/him Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: Used responsibly it's just another form of explosive. No. Other explosives don't cause radiation sickness, anti-matter bombs do. Other explosives don't leave radioactive fallout (though antimatter bombs are better than regular nukes). 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: Everyone has the ability to create toxic gases today, both the materials and the knowledge, buying everything you need wouldn't even raise eyebrows. But you don't see that happening. It kinda does raise eyebrows, because the information is not as freely available as you would think (unless you are reasonably good at chemistry, which most are not), so you have to search for it. And buying certain stuff together can raise alarm. Not foolproof, but it is tracked. 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: The vegetation that can completely burry itself underground, has literal rock for an outer shell, or some other method of not being burnt to the point that people have to specifically prepare the stuff they want to burn? The wind and heat from the incoming fire would have everything retract, the fire would put itself out. The fireball would outright vaporize surface area. No vegetation survives that. Those outside of vaporization zone would be uprooted and thrown some quite some distance, along with tones of rock. Very little vegetation sruvives that. The rest would get their DNA damaged by gamma radiation and rock for outer shell would not be thick enough. There is quite a power gap between fire and nuclear fireball and gamma radiation. 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: The Highstorms will put out any fires that manage to somehow sustain themselves. Highstorms come only every 10 days. 10 days is a lot of time to burn. 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: I don't think you get to the point where 9/10 people are dead unless the Fused are leading it. Famines are famously deadly. 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: And even then they only have 10 days to do it, and they definitely don't have the time to make enough bombs for that. Why only 10 days? 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: Do you know how many people use plastic explosives, TNT or other explosives for fun? We literally have a holiday we're just about everyone shoots explosives into the air, for fun. Disney is America's second largest buyer of explosives and all of it is for fun. Fireworks are quite different caliber than nukes or anti-matter bombs. Not to mention, I do find such usage of explosive quite dumb , and pointlessly disruptive to nature. 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: My protection is an anti-investiture bomb. I don't need anything else. So your protection is that if someone tries to kill you, you kill yourself first? That's...not the best idea. Edited August 10, 2023 by therunner 1
alder24 Posted August 10, 2023 Posted August 10, 2023 13 minutes ago, Frustration said: Used responsibly it's just another form of explosive. There is nothing responsible in nukes which leaves a radioactive wasteland behind. The Runit Dome is an example of "very responsible form of explosive". 10 minutes ago, Frustration said: Everyone has the ability to create toxic gases today, both the materials and the knowledge, buying everything you need wouldn't even raise eyebrows. But you don't see that happening. Assad proves you wrong. Putin proves you wrong. The Tokyo subway attack in 1995 proves you wrong. Good thing it's illegal to make it and buying ingredients and equipment do raise an eyebrow. 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: The vegetation that can completely burry itself underground, has literal rock for an outer shell, or some other method of not being burnt to the point that people have to specifically prepare the stuff they want to burn? The inside of plants that is flammable and outside that's also flammable but only rain stops it from catching fire? The heat wave of the initial explosion would vaporize any wetness from it and set it all aflame dozens of kilometers away from the epicenter. There is no time for any reaction. OB ch 17: Quote “The inside of this,” he said, turning it over for them, “will still be dry, despite the rainfall. The rockbud needs a barrier between itself and the water outside for some reason, though it always seems eager to drink after a storm. Who has my knife?” Nobody moved to return it. “If you scrape off this inner layer,” Kaladin said, tapping at the rockbud shell, “you can get to the dry portion" 15 minutes ago, Frustration said: The wind and heat from the incoming fire would have everything retract, the fire would put itself out. Fire creates a high pressure area, storms are a low pressure area, plants won't retract like before a Highstorm. And they can still burn even when hidden. 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: The Highstorms will put out any fires that manage to somehow sustain themselves. I don't think you get to the point where 9/10 people are dead unless the Fused are leading it. And even then they only have 10 days to do it, and they definitely don't have the time to make enough bombs for that. Repeat that after every Highstorm until most people are dead. It won't stop just after the first week, it will only get worse as people will get more and more desperate. Hunger kills, diseases injuries and lack of medical attention kills, homelessness in an area with hurricane every 10 days kills. 17 minutes ago, Frustration said: Do you know how many people use plastic explosives, TNT or other explosives for fun? We literally have a holiday we're just about everyone shoots explosives into the air, for fun. Disney is America's second largest buyer of explosives and all of it is for fun. I don't approve of that, I would ban fireworks and firecrackers if I could. The first example is simply irresponsible and just bad on every level, but still doesn't apply as those aren't nukes. There were 10000 firework related injuries in 2022 in the US. "Fireworks started an estimated 12,264 fires in 2021, including 2,082 structure fires, 316 vehicle fires, and 9,866 outside and other fires. These fires caused 29 civilian injuries and $59 million in direct property damage." Really responsible. Give them nukes, you have 10000 cities gone. "For fun" Not to mention the US is famously "good" at preventing a criminal use of firearms. Give those people nukes instead and there is no US anymore, just a hole on the map. 20 minutes ago, Frustration said: My protection is an anti-investiture bomb. I don't need anything else. They have that too, and more than you. They strike first, you're dead, and nobody will avenge you. 1
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