Loveable Characters you actually don't care about....

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Contrary to some of the opinions here, I think Renarin will become one of the more interesting characters in the SA.

 

Renarin is a Truthwatcher. Truthwatchers see the future, and judging from Renarin's behavior when Shallan was opening the Oathgate, Renarin has seen some really disturbing things.

 

Vorinism despises prophecy and foretelling the future. Have you ever wondered just why Renarin refuses all urging to join the ardentia?

 

Renarin was already a shadow in the Kholin family. Adolin talks about he makes women nervous. Where Dalinar and Adolin are leaders and warriors, Renarin is a scholar and a weakling. 

 

He has a spren that no one else can see, and he sees visions of death and destruction (presumably) that no one else can see. 

The society he has been raised in will hate and mistrust him. Kaladin has left for Hearthstone, and Shallan appears to strongly dislike Renarin. That leaves only his father as a Radiant he can turn to, and Dalinar is almost certainly preoccupied with a billion other things. 

 

 

 

Renarin, who already is an outcast in Alethkar society, is going to be experiencing one of Vorinism's greatest taboos with pretty much no guidance whatsoever. 

 

For the next few books, to be Renarin is to suffer. Which is interesting. 

I dislike Renarin. As true as that is, this plot does sound interesting. The plot sounds interesting though; everything I know of Renarin suggests he is going to collapse under pressure and make everything a whine-fest. But I can say this, Renarin fans, I really really am rooting for him to grow from a plot like this. Something where he is tested and actually grows a little stronger instead of crying. I just don't have much hope and that's why he's at the top of my list for this topic. 

[AerionBFII he/him]

I dislike Renarin. As true as that is, this plot does sound interesting. The plot sounds interesting though; everything I know of Renarin suggests he is going to collapse under pressure and make everything a whine-fest. But I can say this, Renarin fans, I really really am rooting for him to grow from a plot like this. Something where he is tested and actually grows a little stronger instead of crying. I just don't have much hope and that's why he's at the top of my list for this topic. 

Yep like Zahel said he has great potential! 

[Guest]

Renarin, who already is an outcast in Alethkar society, is going to be experiencing one of Vorinism's greatest taboos with pretty much no guidance whatsoever. 

 

For the next few books, to be Renarin is to suffer. Which is interesting. 

 

I dislike Renarin. As true as that is, this plot does sound interesting. The plot sounds interesting though; everything I know of Renarin suggests he is going to collapse under pressure and make everything a whine-fest. But I can say this, Renarin fans, I really really am rooting for him to grow from a plot like this. Something where he is tested and actually grows a little stronger instead of crying. I just don't have much hope and that's why he's at the top of my list for this topic. 

 

I am not a fan of Renarin, but I do not believe he will suffer greatly in the next book or so. I see quite the contrary. Renarin has been picked on for years for not fitting into the Alethki ideal. He has constantly beaten himself up for it. However, in WoK we have seen him take steps to finally overcome this issue. He is finally getting the chance to try out as a soldier and will mostly likely come to the conclusion, by himself, he is better suited for other tasks, especially once he finds out what Progression can do. He also decided to semi-join Bridge 4, a group of outsiders and reject, which is actually giving him what he has been missing: self-confidence. At the end of WoR, he finally acknowledge he is becoming a Radiant.

 

Basically, Renarin is currently set to step out of his brother's shadow and finally take his place. Collapsing under the pressure? The pressure of what? Renarin has little responsibilities in the Kohlin's household and I doubt Dalinar will over charge his young untrained son with any. The most probable outcome is that Renarin will slowly discover his powers and slowly find ways to use them and he does so, he'll gain in confidence. Dalinar would never put Renarin in an uncomfortable position. The one I see collapsing under the pressure is more Adolin who has zillions of responsibilities, on whom Dalinar heavily depends on, who has zillion of personal, emotional and physical issues to deal with.

 

Now, Renarin's power may cause issues with Vorinisn if he goes open with them, but I doubt he will. The Kohlins will probably keep his ability to themselves, to protect Renarin, but I suspect there will come a time where his special powers will play a huge role and he'll end up saving the day.

 

Bottom line, is I think Renarin is set for glory, not misery.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Collapsing under the pressure? The pressure of what? Renarin has little responsibilities in the Kohlin's household and I doubt Dalinar will over charge his young untrained son with any. The most probable outcome is that Renarin will slowly discover his powers and slowly find ways to use them and he does so, he'll gain in confidence. Dalinar would never put Renarin in an uncomfortable position. The one I see collapsing under the pressure is more Adolin who has zillions of responsibilities, on whom Dalinar heavily depends on, who has zillion of personal, emotional and physical issues to deal with.

 

I was referencing pressures Renarin has already seen, not those ahead (though I believe he will there too). It's happened on numerous occasions. When he's in the duel, for instance, is a shining moment. We don't find out the root cause for a while, he's uncomfortable interacting with his spren, but regardless of the cause, he breaks down at several moments across these 2 books. 

Now I'm curious though, where does Adolin ever fall to pressure? He's constantly winning duels and fighting on the battlefield.... He may not be good with women in general, but that's not really the same problem. Do you mean in upcoming books? That's probably more likely - that the solidity of the two brothers will reverse over time. But right now you don't see anyone going into a fetal position except Renarin, and at that point Adolin is too busy fighting several Shardbearers at once.

[Guest]

I was referencing pressures Renarin has already seen, not those ahead (though I believe he will there too). It's happened on numerous occasions. When he's in the duel, for instance, is a shining moment. We don't find out the root cause for a while, he's uncomfortable interacting with his spren, but regardless of the cause, he breaks down at several moments across these 2 books. 

Now I'm curious though, where does Adolin ever fall to pressure? He's constantly winning duels and fighting on the battlefield.... He may not be good with women in general, but that's not really the same problem. Do you mean in upcoming books? That's probably more likely - that the solidity of the two brothers will reverse over time. But right now you don't see anyone going into a fetal position except Renarin, and at that point Adolin is too busy fighting several Shardbearers at once.

 

I was talking about things I foresee, not things that have happened  

 

Renarin did fell to keep it together in two instances, but I believe his problem was one of self-confidence and refusal to accept he was bonding a spren. Now that he has come in terms with the latest, I do see him improving. He will be able to talk to Dalinar about his visions, which should help out things in perspective. His new powers will give him an additional use he couldn't previously have. Bottom line is I think Renarin has very little pressure on him: nobody expects anything out of him and he has very little obligations. I also believe the most plausible character development for him is to grow, not shrink. Well, I hope he will. I have been hoping for a long time Renarin would man up a bit.

 

Oh Adolin has never even came close to fall under the pressure. He is currently thriving, but he has just killed a Highprince and has thus broken his father's code and trust. The one person he admires the most in life. Not to mention all his family, friends and relatives are now Radiants, whereas he is nothing. For the first time in his life, he has to wonder as to where he fits into all this. He also sustains injuries during the last fight which will keep him away (for a while at least) from what he does best: fighting and dueling. He'll have to compose with all this while maintaining a composed exterior and keeping up with the managing of the entire Kohlin army as well as the exploration of the Tower. Now, I don't really see Adolin curling up into a ball, but I do think he'll worn down in the next book.

[sun tzaro]

 Well, I hope he will. I have been hoping for a long time Renarin would man up a bit.

 

 

I think Renarin is a little more man that you suspect. Kaladin could barely hold a screaming Shardblade for a few seconds. Renarin lugged one around for a week, and didn't breathe a word of complaint.

 

In fact, I think it's a miracle that Renarin isn't flipping insane from all that he's been through. Kaladin had Syl to guide him nearly every step of the path along his way to Radiance-y. Since Renarin's communication with his Spren appears to have been very limited, he had no idea what was causing the screams. He thought it was all in his head.

 

In the assault on the plateau with Roion and Ruthar - 

 

 

"A group of shellheads tried to seize one of the bridges, Brightlord," the bridgeman said softly. "Brightlord Renarin insisted on going to help,. Sir, we tried hard to dissuade him. Then, when he got near and summoned his Blade, he just kind of...stood there. We got him away, sir, but he's been sitting on that rock ever since.  "

 

"I didn't have a fit, " Renarin said softly. 

 

...

 

"I just stood there," Renarin said. "I wasn't frozen because of my... ailment. I'm just a coward."

 

Renarin takes completely responsibility for his failure. Except... he didn't fail because he was a coward.

 

He simply has trouble fighting with a screaming Shardblade. Kaladin, a relatively seasoned warrior, would have had trouble fighting with a screaming Shardblade. A novice like Renarin, who has no idea why his blade screams in the first place, wouldn't have had a chance.

 

The plot sounds interesting though; everything I know of Renarin suggests he is going to collapse under pressure and make everything a whine-fest. 

 

Are you sure you're not thinking of Kaladin? Renarin is weak, untrained, and certainly fails on numerous occasions, but he's also hardworking, obedient, and he normally keeps his mouth shut. If there's a sequence in WoK/WoR to the contrary, please enlighten me. 

 

 

This is a time of huge upheaval, and added to that two of the other Radiants already have visions and Dalinar's are well-known publicly. 

 

I don't believe any of the other Radiants have had visions of the future. Dalinar's visions were from the past and were sent by the Almighty, aspects which I believe he uses to sanctify his visions to the rest of the Highprinces and their respective kingdoms in WoK. 

 

Renarin can claim no such thing, and he is seeing visions of the future. Which is, of course, taboo, and I think that the traditions of Vorinism are a little more deeply ingrained in Alethkar society than you guys seem to believe. Predicting the weather is frowned upon. Renarin's visions of doom will undoubtedly be met with doubt and suspicion by even those who accept the return of the Radiants. 

 

 

 

"Particularly if the Almighty is dead..."

 

Perhaps he should not have shared that fact with her. Speaking of just that one idea could brand him as a heretic, drive his own ardents from him, give Sadeas a weapon against the Throne.

 

Sadeas has been removed as a problem, but Vorinism is still everywhere - and Dalinar himself adheres to it. Renarin's soothsaying abilities are going to spell a TON of trouble for him in the future.

 

 

 

"I can see it," Renarin answered feverishly, his voice echoing in the chamber. Ardents who had been studying part of the murals looked up at him. "I can see the future itself. Why? Why, Almighty? Why have you cursed me so?" He screamed a pleading cry, then stood and cracked something against the wall. A rock? Where had he gotten it? He gripped the thing in a gauntleted hand and began to write.

 

Shocked, Shallan took a step toward him. A sequence of numbers?

 

All zeros.

 

"It's come," Renarin whispered. "It's come, it's come, it's come. We're dead. We're dead. We're dead..."

 

Here, Renarin is portending Szeth's arrival. Just a note - from this, and from other passages (I spent some time looking them up, and I'd be happy to provide them if anyone is curious) in WoR, we know for near certain that Renarin was responsible for the countdown. Again, Dalinar cannot see the future.

 

And there, we see that Renarin curses his ability. He himself fears it. 

 

 

"That makes three of us. Windrunner, Bondsmith, Lightweaver."

 

"Four," a voice said from the shadows of the stairwell. Renarin stepped up unto the lit room. He looked at them, then shrank back.

 

"Son?" Dalinar asked. 

 

Renartin remained in the darkness, looking down. 

 

"No spectacles..." Dalinar whispered. "You stopped wearing them. I thought you were trying too look like a warrior, but no. Stormlight healed your eyes."

 

Renarin nodded.

 

"And the Shardblade," Dalinar said, stepping over and taking his son by the shoulder. "You hear screams. That's what happened to you in the arena. You couldn't fight because of those shouts in your head from summoning the Blade. Why? Why didn't you say anything?

 

"I thought it was me," Renarin whispered. "My mind. But Glys, he says..." Renarin blinked. "Truthwatcher."

 

"Truthwatcher?" Kaladin said, glancing at Shallan. She shook her head. "I walk the winds. She weaves light. Brightlord Dalinar forges bonds. What do you do?"

 

Renarin met Kaladin's eyes across the room. "I see."

 

"Four orders," Dalinar said, squeezing Renarin's shoulder with pride. Storms, the lad was trembling. What made him so worried?

 

Renarin speaking and remaining in the shadows, and then continuing to tremble even after being acknowledged.

 

If that passage doesn't scream foreboding, I don't know what does.

 

I also see the "Why was the lad trembling?" part as blatant foreshadowing for how the father/son dynamic is going to work in the next book. Dalinar is not going to understand what Renarin is going through. Hell, no one is going to understand what Renarin is going through, including Renarin himself.

 

Quote

 

 

Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did, in this lies frustration for those who would see their exceeding secrecy from the outside; they were not naturally inclined to explanation; and in the case of Corberon's disagreements, their silence was not a sign of exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact.

 

Unlike the other orders, whom have had much of their past recorded in the literal book Words of Radiance, as well as, presumably, other places in the archives of Urithiru, the Truthwatchers left few records. As I said before, Renarin is going to be experiencing one of his society's greatest taboos with literally no guidance.

 

 

 He also decided to semi-join Bridge 4, a group of outsiders and reject, which is actually giving him what he has been missing: self-confidence. At the end of WoR, he finally acknowledge he is becoming a Radiant.

 

 

I'm almost certain I know exactly how part of Stones Unhallowed is going to turn out. Renarin is going to find himself an outcast once again, but this time it is all the more crushing because he has known what it is to be accepted.

 

Bridge Four follows Kaladin because he is their leader, and he has proven himself time and again. Kaladin mentions how he worries that Bridge Four would reject him because of his powers; Bridge Four accepts him in spite of his powers, not because of his powers. And even then, it is repeatedly mentioned how Kaladin is set apart from Bridge Four because of his position as a Radiant. 

 

Dalinar is a Highprince. He is the Blackthorn, a man who has commanded for over half his life. Dalinar has no equals. He doesn't ask for respect, he demands it. Being a Radiant is, for him, a boon, and likely doesn't set him apart anymore than his following the Alethi war Codes did. 

 

Shallan is used to being alone. She has known few friends, and her status as a Radiant has not really affected her relationships with others, beyond that of her relationship with Adolin. And now, after her public displays of knowledge and power, she too demands respect.

 

All Radiants are essentially outcasts from society. They are alone. However, all of the ones mentioned above are also, in their own ways, leaders. They are Radiants, but they are also respected.

 

But Renarin? What has Renarin done? Who is Renarin now? He was a mopey little boy, the disappointment of the Kholin family.

 

Now, he is a blaspheming mopey little boy with the powers of the Radiants, who are still hated throughout most of Roshar.

 

Bridge Four will treat Renarin with respect, but he is not one of them anymore. Renarin is alone.  

[Savanorn he/him]

 

 

 

I don't believe any of the other Radiants have had visions of the future. Dalinar's visions were from the past and were sent by the Almighty, aspects which I believe he uses to sanctify his visions to the rest of the Highprinces and their respective kingdoms in WoK. 

 

 

I didn't say they did, but the fact that Radiants have visions is now established. People in Alethkar know it, I doubt they understand the particular peculiarities of it all. Further, Dalinar's actions had the stink of the Hierocracy before enough of the Highprinces came around. Even once we know they are true and there is actual evidence in Alethi research society, the revelation was enough to damage Dalinar's standing. To say they were sanctified is a very recent phenomenon.     

 

In terms of what the common man, or even the Alethi brightlord, knows they know that Dalinar sees things, they're told the Almighty sends them, if one of his sons is also a prophet is that suspect, is it possibly disquieting?

 

Yeah. But for all they know, all the Radiants had them, the Radiants which just saved the Alethi army that fulfilled the Vengeance Pact. The city they now occupy was the very same citadel of the Radiants. Were I an Alethi, I'd be thinking that maybe the Radiants weren't all that bad.  

 

As I said, this is the return of powers that are mystical and unknown. It's a time of change and I think religious/social change will probably be a part of that I mean, it already is.. At the least, it should be easier for Renarin than pre-Urithiru Alethi society would be.   

 

 

Renarin can claim no such thing, and he is seeing visions of the future. Which is, of course, taboo, and I think that the traditions of Vorinism are a little more deeply ingrained in Alethkar society than you guys seem to believe. Predicting the weather is frowned upon. Renarin's visions of doom will undoubtedly be met with doubt and suspicion by even those who accept the return of the Radiants. 

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. I'm providing a counterpoint.

 

The villanisation of the Radiants was pretty deeply ingrained as well.  

 

I'm almost certain I know exactly how part of Stones Unhallowed is going to turn out. Renarin is going to find himself an outcast once again, but this time it is all the more crushing because he has known what it is to be accepted.

 

Bridge Four follows Kaladin because he is their leader, and he has proven himself time and again. Kaladin mentions how he worries that Bridge Four would reject him because of his powers; Bridge Four accepts him in spite of his powers, not because of his powers. And even then, it is repeatedly mentioned how Kaladin is set apart from Bridge Four because of his position as a Radiant. 

 

 

I'm almost 100% sure this is wrong. 

 

Bridge Four liked and respected Kaladin for the miraculous man he was, as a Radiant they almost worship him. He's not strictly set apart, he's set at a higher level. 

 

Dalinar is a Highprince. He is the Blackthorn, a man who has commanded for over half his life. Dalinar has no equals. He doesn't ask for respect, he demandsit. Being a Radiant is, for him, a boon, and likely doesn't set him apart anymore than his following the Alethi war Codes did.

 

 

He also received flak for following the Codes. 

 

The point is that the two go hand in hand, as Dalinar makes the Codes and Radiants more acceptable because of his persona, achievements and politics they become more broadly acceptable to Alethi society. B 

 

As of WoR, Radiants have saved the Alethi army and thus fulfilled the Vengeance Pact and they've killed the Assassin in White. 

 

Shallan is used to being alone. She has known few friends, and her status as a Radiant has not really affected her relationships with others, beyond that of her relationship with Adolin. And now, after her public displays of knowledge and power, she too demands respect.

 

 

I agree with this, Shallan blazed onto the Alethi scene using knowledge, politics and her artistics achievements to cement a strong position...she has done nothing but do good for the name of Radiants. 

 

All Radiants are essentially outcasts from society. They are alone. However, all of the ones mentioned above are also, in their own ways, leaders. They are Radiants, but they are also respected.

 

But Renarin? What has Renarin done? Who is Renarin now? He was a mopey little boy, the disappointment of the Kholin family.

 

Now, he is a blaspheming mopey little boy with the powers of the Radiants, who are still hated throughout most of Roshar.

 

Bridge Four will treat Renarin with respect, but he is not one of them anymore. Renarin is alone.  

 

 

 

This is largely the part I disagree with. 

 

Renarin, I think, will find himself in the role of Radiant. He wasn't a soldier or an ardent, he was smart but being a scholar is not for him, but a Truthwatcher could well be the best thing for him at all. 

 

I anticipate that with the necessity of Radiants attitudes will change.

 

To put it another way, Renarin has always been a disappointment and seen as relatively useless in Alethi society...now he's one of just four Radiants in the whole world. He's special. Also depending on how well he masters his Progression surge, that could do a lot to make him accepted anywhere. 

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Are you sure you're not thinking of Kaladin? Renarin is weak, untrained, and certainly fails on numerous occasions, but he's also hardworking, obedient, and he normally keeps his mouth shut. If there's a sequence in WoK/WoR to the contrary, please enlighten me. 

It's really funny you mention Kaladin, because I definitely am reminded of him when I consider Renarin's future. He's going to have to step up in a big way soon and he's not used to the kind of pressure that will be put on him. He'll be criticized by everyone. He'll have to come to terms with his role in the world. Yes, I am reminded of Kaladin's own situation, but no, I am not mistaken. From what I've read, Renarin is constantly having breakdowns when it matters. They are understandable now that we know the cause and how it can be remedied, but that is his character as I know it. On top of that it looks like he does work hard to better himself, and at the end of the book he appears to step up a little bit, though even then he appears intimidated by the thought of the responsibility.power he's coming into. Maybe not without good reason - we don't know much about the pros and cons of his abilities yet besides a vague "can see the future," so it's hard to judge. But that is kind of my point. As far as I know, Renarin has only enough redeeming qualities for me to not care about him. I was a little relieved to learn of his powers just because they are interesting and I know that if I have to be reading about Renarin, at least the potential upside will be worth the frustration. 

[Guest]

I think Renarin is a little more man that you suspect. Kaladin could barely hold a screaming Shardblade for a few seconds. Renarin lugged one around for a week, and didn't breathe a word of complaint.

 

In fact, I think it's a miracle that Renarin isn't flipping insane from all that he's been through. Kaladin had Syl to guide him nearly every step of the path along his way to Radiance-y. Since Renarin's communication with his Spren appears to have been very limited, he had no idea what was causing the screams. He thought it was all in his head.

 

We have no reason to assume Glys was not guiding and communicating with Renarin. Renarin did not know the reason for the screaming blade, but neither did Syl, until recently. It is quite probable Glys was not able to help Renarin with this particular aspect of his everyday life. All the sprens we have seen were actively talking with their knights. I thus doubt Renarin did not exchange a word with Glys until the end. He obviously said the first oath at the beginning of the book as he was able to draw stormlight to heal his vision. That implies communications of some sort with is spren. He most likely said the second one at the end, when he finally acknowledge he is one of the Radiant.

 

 

Renarin speaking and remaining in the shadows, and then continuing to tremble even after being acknowledged.

 

If that passage doesn't scream foreboding, I don't know what does.

 

I also see the "Why was the lad trembling?" part as blatant foreshadowing for how the father/son dynamic is going to work in the next book. Dalinar is not going to understand what Renarin is going through. Hell, no one is going to understand what Renarin is going through, including Renarin himself.

 

I thought he was trembling because he was finally admitting the truth, something he has refrained himself from doing for two books now. I sincerely doubt his visions are this specific. Most likely, they are about large scale event, not about his family and his everyday life.

 

Everyone is going to understand Renarin now they know he is a Radiant! All of a sudden, he has a status and a voice. He now stands above everyone. How is it Dalinar would not understand his son? How is it their relation should be broken by Renarin being a Radiant? I see the exact opposite. Now, father and son will share something, they'll bond over this.

 

 

 

I'm almost certain I know exactly how part of Stones Unhallowed is going to turn out. Renarin is going to find himself an outcast once again, but this time it is all the more crushing because he has known what it is to be accepted.

 

But Renarin? What has Renarin done? Who is Renarin now? He was a mopey little boy, the disappointment of the Kholin family.

 

Now, he is a blaspheming mopey little boy with the powers of the Radiants, who are still hated throughout most of Roshar.

 

Bridge Four will treat Renarin with respect, but he is not one of them anymore. Renarin is alone.  

 

I see the exact opposite. Renarin has been an outcast all his life. The natural progression for his character is to have him find his place. Having him sink even lower does not make sense in terms of character development.

 

Besides, I sincerely doubt the Kohlin will display Renarin's powers: they won't say a thing. Nobody will know what Renarin can do.

 

I was under the impression they treated him as one of their own.

 

 

 As far as I know, Renarin has only enough redeeming qualities for me to not care about him. I was a little relieved to learn of his powers just because they are interesting and I know that if I have to be reading about Renarin, at least the potential upside will be worth the frustration. 

 

Funny, I was disappointed to hear about him being a Radiant as I felt we did not have enough ground foundation to support such a change. I felt cheated by him.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Funny, I was disappointed to hear about him being a Radiant as I felt we did not have enough ground foundation to support such a change. I felt cheated by him.

Hahahaha I'm blindsided by different perspectives on characters all the time, but I have to admit, I've seen this one before. We'll see though. I've seen him under consideration for his own POV book at some point, so that might provide the time/place where Renarin shines. 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Stick and Vin. I don't understand the stick thing at all. Vin, I just don't connect with a lot. She's cool and all, but I don't care much for her. 

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Shallan for one. I don't want to start a rant (as nobody would propably like to read of all the things that I hate in Shallan), so let's just say she annoys me to no end and with the direction she's heading right now, it can only get even worse...

 

And stick. It was fun to read (as a character I dislike totally got her ehem... backside handed back to her by a mere stick), but if something like that would happen again, it would be plainly boring.

 

I guess Navani too. She's not that bad, but she's not very interesting to me as well.

 

I was to say that I don't get the whole Nightblood craze as well, but I'm on my way to reading Warbreaker, so I have a feeling my mind will be changed.

 

I guess I'll go hide before the cult of the stick gets me...

[sun tzaro]

I'll try to make my main point before doing anything else.

 

Vorinism is central in Alethkar culture, and in the culture of the other four Vorin kingdoms. It is a religion that nearly everyone follows. Nearly everyone has a Calling, and nearly everyone worships the Almighty and the ten Heralds.

 

It is not a religion that will be easily dislodged. Vorin culture forbids men to learn how to read, and doesn't encourage women, who can read, to read anything of depth (as evidenced by how Shallan, in the most academic city on Roshar, has to fight pretty hard to get any real reading material).  

 

In the five kingdoms, the scholarly class near exclusively consists of the Ardentia—Vorin monks. Jasnah speaks with wariness about the sway that the Devotaries hold in Khabranth, and presumably much of the rest of the world. Jasnah herself has been ostracized from scholarly society because of her status as a heretic.

 

Ardents operate the soulcasters. All figures of political importance, from Highprinces like Dalinar, to minor lords like Shallan's father, are reliant on the regular use of the services of Ardents.

 

Vorinism is not going to evaporate merely because a few soldiers who can glow and fly around have showed up. If Vorinism falls, expect a conflict on the level of the War of Loss. 

 

Merely by being Knights Radiant, Dalinar and friends are already drawn into contention with Vorinism. Those differences at least have a chance of being reconciled, if Dalinar can convince the leaders of the world that the KRs were just misunderstood, or that they are necessary to save the world from the Voidbringers. 

 

Foretelling the future, however, will never be accepted. Prophecy is said to be of the Voidbringers. It is what led to the Hierocracy. It goes against a fundamental tenet of the Vorin faith, a tenet that Sanderson has brought up and emphasized time and again. 

 

Understand that the Hierocracy happened before the Day of Recreance. It is very possible that the idea of foretelling the future became hated while the Radiants were still around.

 

Prophecy is a defining ability of the Truthwatchers. It will, guaranteed, be one of the things that defines Renarin. And there is absolutely no way, that, after it has been established that Vorinism completely repudiates soothsaying, and after it has been established that even the Truthwatchers of the past hid what they saw, that Renarin will be accepted for what he is.

 

He will either hide his visions, and suffer them alone, or he will share them and receive suspicion and hatred in return. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah. But for all they know, all the Radiants had them, the Radiants which just saved the Alethi army that fulfilled the Vengeance Pact. The city they now occupy was the very same citadel of the Radiants. Were I an Alethi, I'd be thinking that maybe the Radiants weren't all that bad.  

 

 

The Radiants did not save the Alethi army. One Radiant saved the Alethi army by opening an oathgate, no surgebinding involved. 

 

The Alethi army fulfilled the Vengeance Pact.

 

So far, the Radiants have hardly proven themselves to Roshar, let alone Alethkar. Yes, Kaladin defeated the Assassin in white... by fighting him inside a stormfront and above the clouds. How many actually witnessed what Kaladin's abilities and what he did, beyond the Bridgeman and those of Dalinar's own army - soldiers who's loyalty was already not in question?  Kaladin saved Dalinar and Adolin. He didn't save the Alethi army. 

 

While I'm aware that Kaladin had already amassed quite a following of respect in even the other warcamps, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the soldiers in Sadeas's, Ruthar's, and the other seven Highprinces' armies aren't quite ready to fall to their knees and worship an order that they had been taught to hate all their lives.

 

 

 

I'm almost 100% sure this is wrong. 

 

Bridge Four liked and respected Kaladin for the miraculous man he was, as a Radiant they almost worship him. He's not strictly set apart, he's set at a higher level. 

 

 

No one worships the Radiants, unless we're talking about psycho sects like the one Teft's parents were a part of.

 

The Bridgemen are either indifferent or wary of the notion of the Radiants. It's Kaladin they worship. 

 

It's easy for the reader to latch on to the Radiants, because we've seen them for what they are - heroic heroes of justice. Vorin faith teaches the opposite, however, and the Vorin faith is everywhere.

 

In that respect, the Bridgemen's acceptance of Kaladin is understandable - when your society has left you for dead, religion might not be something you're concerned about. 

 

Since Kaladin is a great guy, and the Bridgemen are brave and loyal, I have no doubt they will show similar respect to all other Radiants. But it's never Radiance-y that they truly respect. 

 

 

 

He also received flak for following the Codes. 

 

The point is that the two go hand in hand, as Dalinar makes the Codes and Radiants more acceptable because of his persona, achievements and politics they become more broadly acceptable to Alethi society. B 

 

 

 

Of course. The fact that Dalinar had alienated himself near completely from the other Highprinces was a major plot point in the Way of Kings. Being a Radiant is hardly going to alienate him any more. 

 

We have no reason to assume Glys was not guiding and communicating with Renarin. 

 

On the contrary, we have a passage that directly tells us that Renarin did think it was all in his head, and that his contact with Glys is a recent development.

 

 

"...You couldn't fight because of those shouts in your head from summoning the Blade. Why? Why didn't you say anything?"

 

"I thought it was me," Renarin whispered. "My mind. But Glys, he says..." Renarin blinked.

 

 

 He obviously said the first oath at the beginning of the book as he was able to draw stormlight to heal his vision. 

 

 

Kaladin healed his wounds after being strung up in a Highstorm. At that point, he had not said the first oath. 

 

 

 

I see the exact opposite. Renarin has been an outcast all his life. The natural progression for his character is to have him find his place. Having him sink even lower does not make sense in terms of character development.

 

 

If we're going to talk about poor writing, I'll tell you what poor writing is.

 

Poor writing is giving a character with major personal flaws superpowers and expecting those flaws to go away.

 

Being given power that puts him far above common men, and being given an ability that will make him hated and feared will not suddenly make Renarin into a charismatic leader, a confident scholar, and a fearless warrior. He will still be an outcast. He will still be shy and awkward. 

 

Renarin is going to have a POV in the second half of this series. His character is going to become central, and his character development has a hell of a long way to go.

 

Before Renarin's life gets any better, it's going to get worse. Way worse.

 

And here's a quote from your favorite character:

 

 

"It's foretelling, you realize," Adolin said softly. "Seeing the future. A thing of the Voidbringers."

Edited October 24, 2014 by sun tzaro

[Guest]

IOn the contrary, we have a passage that directly tells us that Renarin did think it was all in his head, and that his contact with Glys is a recent development.

 

 

 

 

On the passage you have underlined, Renarin is referencing to his screaming Blade, not his relationship with Glys. Right before this sentence, Dalinar tells him if that is what happened to him in the arena, the screaming Blade and then Renarin said yes and that he thought it was all in his head.

 

We should also underlined the fact Syl has felt uncomfortable around every single shardbearer in both WoK and WoR and when Kal asked her about it, she was never able to explain it. It is highly probable Glys was not able to explain to Renarin why his Blade was screaming at him and it is also highly probable he asked him repetitively to get rid of, which Renarin refused.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that Renarin has never been communicating with Glys before the end of WoR.

 

To the contrary, Renarin heals his vision, which implies drawing stormlight. Yes, Kaladin was able to pull it of while being unconscious and on the verge of dying. He said the first oath shortly after, but he already had a working bond established with Syl (meaning, they shared numerous conversations) several weeks prior to the incident. Shallan was also able to draw in stormlight to heal her badly injured feet. Both events has two things in common: dreadful wounds and an established bond by means of direct communication. I sincerely doubt Kaladin would have been able to draw stormlight before he acknowledged the existence of Syl, which happened early on in WoK. The same goes with Shallan: she was able to draw stormlight only after she re-instated her bond with Pattern at the end of WoK.

 

All this strongly suggests that Renarin had, at the very least, talked with Glys and acknowledged his existence. Now, he may not have known the full extend to what was happening to him and we know sprens are often useless with this in the beginning, but if he is drawing stormlight, even unconsciously, then he is communicating with Glys. There is also the fact his eyesight was not a life-threatening injury: there was no incentive to heal it, which again implies another level of stormlight drawing, a potentially more conscious one.

 

We should also mentioned the fact Kaladin talked with Syl for weeks before he said the first oath. To think Renarin had an established bond (which he does since he hears the Blade screaming) while not communicating with is spren is rather far-fetched. You need to feed the bond, to make it grow and the fact Renarin receives powerful visions implies surgebinding, which again implies he said at least the first oath. If you don't feed the bond, if you reject it, then it dies. So yes, Renarin most probably did interact with Glys all through WoR.

 

My guess if he said the first oath some time between chapter 14 and chapter 36-38 (the one where he goes on the Plateau run with Adolin, not sure of the exact number). I also think he may have potentially said the second oath shortly before reveling himself to Dalinar.

 

 

I'll try to make my main point before doing anything else.

 

If we're going to talk about poor writing, I'll tell you what poor writing is.

 

Poor writing is giving a character with major personal flaws superpowers and expecting those flaws to go away.

 

Being given power that puts him far above common men, and being given an ability that will make him hated and feared will not suddenly make Renarin into a charismatic leader, a confident scholar, and a fearless warrior. He will still be an outcast. He will still be shy and awkward. 

 

Renarin is going to have a POV in the second half of this series. His character is going to become central, and his character development has a hell of a long way to go.

 

Before Renarin's life gets any better, it's going to get worse. Way worse.

 

That is strictly your opinion.

 

I believe poor character writing is refusing to have your character evolved and grow. Therefore, having Renarin being repetitiously stuck in the position of an outsider, never able to find his place and collapsing under the pressure of life, is not, in my opinion, an interesting plot development as it is static. It would be much more interesting to see him struggle, yes, but ultimately succeeding, step by step, at finding his place.  Being a Radiant won't make him change, but it may give him something to be proud of and it may be the first stone on the foundation of his new self-esteem.

 

We have seen Kaladin overcoming many of his issues through his bond with Syl. Shallan went through a similar process in WoR. We have therefore no reasons to think Renarin will not start to work on his in a similar way now that he is a Radiant.

 

We don't know how central Renarin's character will ultimately be. He is not currently one of the major plot character and with all that is going on, I doubt he will be in the near future, which means whatever development he will get will be limited. As for him getting a book, I have learned recently Brandon tend to change his mind often on who gets a book, so I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

 

And here's a quote from your favorite character:

 

I have never said Adolin would be alright with Renarin's new powers. I have said Dalinar would most likely. I have also stated there is no reason for Renarin to go public with his ability, Dalinar did hide his ability to have visions for quite a while. Renarin's family, even if they disagree or even if they are afraid, will not ostracized him: they love him too much.

 

As for Adolin, I have often theorized on many other posts how I think there will be a fallout between the brothers in the next book or two.

[Aleksiel]

It is not a religion that will be easily dislodged. Vorin culture forbids men to learn how to read, and doesn't encourage women, whocan read, to read anything of depth (as evidenced by how Shallan, in the most academic city on Roshar, has to fight pretty hard to get any real reading material). 

 

Mmm, I'd say that was more because she looks young and thus wasn't taken seriously at first. Also, we needed a scene with her losing her temper and showing her 'clever tongue' to build her character.

 

 

Foretelling the future, however, will never be accepted. Prophecy is said to be of the Voidbringers. It is what led to the Hierocracy.

 

This is untrue actually. Visions were acceptable until the Sunmaker proved them to be lies and changed Vorinism. Also, the foresight being of the Voidbringers can be easily interpreted as all visions being related to Voidbringers, significant in fighting against them. It not unheard of for a religion to change the interpretation of a statement.

 

 

 

Understand that the Hierocracy happened before the Day of Recreance. It is very possible that the idea of foretelling the future became hated while the Radiants were still around.

 

The Hierocracy is after the Day of Recreance - see the 'History of Men' illustration in WoK.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Prophecy is a defining ability of the Truthwatchers. It will, guaranteed, be one of the things that defines Renarin. And there is absolutely no way, that, after it has been established that Vorinism completely repudiates soothsaying, and after it has been established that even the Truthwatchers of the past hid what they saw, that Renarin will be accepted for what he is.

 

He will either hide his visions, and suffer them alone, or he will share them and receive suspicion and hatred in return. 

 

 

On the contrary, we have a passage that directly tells us that Renarin did think it was all in his head, and that his contact with Glys is a recent development.

 

 

 

 

If we're going to talk about poor writing, I'll tell you what poor writing is.

 

Poor writing is giving a character with major personal flaws superpowers and expecting those flaws to go away.

 

Being given power that puts him far above common men, and being given an ability that will make him hated and feared will not suddenly make Renarin into a charismatic leader, a confident scholar, and a fearless warrior. He will still be an outcast. He will still be shy and awkward. 

 

Renarin is going to have a POV in the second half of this series. His character is going to become central, and his character development has a hell of a long way to go.

 

Before Renarin's life gets any better, it's going to get worse. Way worse.

 

I don't really agree with this... While it's true that prophecising is closely related to Renarin and his powers, and it's true that people ear and hate those who see the future, but it doesn't mean that Renarin will hide his visions from the world or be hated for it. By admitting the truth to the other Radiants he already revealed his abilities (or made the first step in doing so), so it's unlikely that he will try to hide it from them now. Of course, infroming the whole world that he can see the future would make people consider him a monster or something like that, but I don't think that Dalinar or Kaladin will ostarcise him (I don't know about Shallan, she had a problem with him during the battle, but I doubt she'll hate Renarin for his abilities - if she will in fact dislike him it'll be for other reasons like his behaviour or personality or anything). So I believe it's safe for him to reveal his visions to the other Radiants and therefore he won't have to suffer them alone.

 

His contact with Glys also cannot be recent - there are many reasons to believe that his bond was already formed and not just recently. He heard the blade scream and it's possible only because of the bond. His vision healed and it also needs a bond to be "working". Glys told him he's a Truthwatcher - so the bond must've been quite far along. We must remember that at first spren are hardly sentient - they gain consciousness and intelligence as the bond progresses. Syl told Kaladin that she's an honorspren around the time of his second oath (when their bond was deeply estabilished), because only then she remembered. When Shallan first started to acknowledge Pattern in WoR he seemed, as she phrased it, imbecillic, so it's hardly possible that at such point he could say anything coherent about Lightweavers. So if Glys could speak of things like that, their bond must've been fairly well developed. And how do any bond develop? Through contact and communication of course. Think of it as of a regular friendship - can you call someone your friend if you only started communicating few days ago? Or even week ago? That would be an acquaintance. To form a real bond, a real friendship, you need at least few weeks. You could spend whole time with someone, 24/7, and that wouldn't mean they're your friend. To form a bond you must talk with someone, share your thoughts/feeling/ideas/anything, simply communicate! The Nahel bond between Renarin and Glys couldn't have been formed overnight, it must've been developing through most of the book.

 

It's true that having powers doesn't make personal flaws go away. It's true that Renarin will still be the same person he has been before. It's true he will have to face great hardships now - because of his powers and because of his rather autistic personality. It's true that his life will propably get worse. But at the same time, in some aspects it can get better. He already mustered enough courage to go up to the other Radiants and tell them the truth. He made first steps to sharing his burden with someone else. He already started to change himslef, to grow as a character. His development may still have far to go (maybe even very far), but it has already begun. And NOT beacuse he has powers, but because of his actions - of his choice to go up to the other Radiants and reveal his secret to them. And in my opinion it's definitely not a "bad writing".

 

PS. Can someone please explain to me how to make multiple quotes?

[Guest]

 

His contact with Glys also cannot be recent - there are many reasons to believe that his bond was already formed and not just recently. He heard the blade scream and it's possible only because of the bond. His vision healed and it also needs a bond to be "working". Glys told him he's a Truthwatcher - so the bond must've been quite far along. We must remember that at first spren are hardly sentient - they gain consciousness and intelligence as the bond progresses. Syl told Kaladin that she's an honorspren around the time of his second oath (when their bond was deeply estabilished), because only then she remembered.

 

You made me remember something I forgot to say that supports the theory Renarin has had a working bond for a while.

 

Dalinar.

 

Brandon has told us Dalinar has been bonding the Stormfather for years now. However, it was not a complete bond as he had not said any oaths. During all those years, he yielded Oathbringer without any issues. At the end of WoR, he bonded Taln's Blade and felt nothing more then an uneasiness. He claimed the bond felt uncomfortable, but he dismissed it as he thought it was just him missing his old Blade. He only starts to hear the Blade screaming after he has said the first oath, after, not before.

 

This by itself is the proof Renarin has, at the very least, said the first oath. It is impossible for him to hear his Blade scream without having said any oath and it is impossible for him to have said a oath without being in communication with his spren. Oaths are not just something you say casually: it is an engagement you take towards your spren, it is the acceptance to become something more. One cannot just say a oath out of the blue and have a random spren accept it, out of the blue, without exchanging any words.

 

Also, you do well to underline Syl has not been able to explain what she was until Kal said the second oath. We should also note Kal has not been able to actively surgebinde until he said the second oath. Renarin knowing he is a Truthwatcher and that "he sees" supports the theory he has also said the second oath sometimes towards the end of WoR. It is possible he said it after the battle, but it is also possible he said it before as his behavior during the unlocking of the oathgate suggests surgebinding which only happens once you have said your second oath.

 

Bottom line is Renarin is far more advanced on the path to Radianhood then people are being led to believe. He has been a proto-radiant since nearly as long as Kal (Kal said the first oath a few weeks only prior to the famous plateau run where Renarin clearly hears his Blade scream, perhaps for the first time), which makes him more advanced then Dalinar. He has probably been drawing on stormlight for quite a while and since he is a smart kid: he must have deduced what was happening to him a long time ago. It is only his fear his powers would make people reject him and his unacceptable of their dreadful nature that prevented him from coming forward with this knowledge.

 

FYI, to make multiple quotes, you click on the quote button, you manually erase the part you do not want to keep, you answer, and then you click again on quote for the text to appear again and you erase the part you do not want and so on. There is multiquote tool I have never been able to use, so I do it differently.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Brandon has told us Dalinar has been bonding the Stormfather for years now.

 

Sorry for just responding to this part of your post but do you have a citation for that?  The only WoB I've seen says that he has been forming a bond "for a while", but does not quantify how long "a while" is. 

[Guest]

Sorry for just responding to this part of your post but do you have a citation for that?  The only WoB I've seen says that he has been forming a bond "for a while", but does not quantify how long "a while" is. 

 

Nah I am referring to the same thing. I have interpreted "a while" as a "few years". Nevertheless, even if "a while" does not define itself as "a few years", it still implies more then a few weeks which, again, implies he has been forming a bond while being bonded to Oathbringer.

 

I do not think qualification such "a while" would be used to define a few days.... There is thus a huge possibility the bond was forming during the event at the Tower. It probably started when he started having issues with the Thrill.

 

However, even if I am dead wrong with this, we cannot discard the fact he was forming a bond while he bonded Taln's Blade. The rest of the conversation remains thus acceptable.

 

Edit: Even if you disagree, the fact was the Dalinar fought with his Blade five days before saying the first oath without hearing any screams. Whereas I do agree the definition of "a while" is vague at best, it does implies a time period greater then 5 days.

Edited October 25, 2014 by maxal

[N006+ard4life]

I guess Lift. I never got how ppl love her so much after just 1 chapter. ANd i think the whole awesomeness stuff pretty lame.

I dont lean much towards Kaladin as well

 

I don't care for Kaladin either... I thought I was the only one that didn't like the guy.

[natc]

Where's patrick with the thread necromancer image?

Though I guess this time there was a bit of contribution going on.

I like Kal honestly. He's quite the inspiring leader, though not without issues.

Edited April 5, 2015 by natc

[Kurkistan he/him]

What's a patrick? 

 

[natc]

What's a patrick?

That one starfish looking guy that I swear exists.

[el_warko he/him]

In order:

 

Nightblood

Stick

Lift

[DanTheSeamonster he/him]

Renarin . . . I just feel like he's useless. He's just there. So far he hasn't had any purpose. I know he'll probably have a PoV later on in the series but for now, just eh.

 

Also I feel the same way for Navani, but to a much lesser extent. At least she is the romantic interest for Dalinar.