Time travel to the past, Distance in the different realms, Bendalloy and Chromium

[Metraton]

Here we go :

Question 1 : Distance are different in the cognitive and the physical realms. And much less in the cognitive realm but considering that time travel to the past is impossible, one cannot travel faster than light in the cognitive realm, implying that the speed of light ( maximum traveling speed)  in the cognitive realm is smaller than in the physical realm. Would that be correct? Of course it would still make travel faster but dependent on the maximum speed that can be reached.

Like if we assume that a character travel from Roshar to Scadrial and the two planets are say 5 light years appart he would take 5 years of relative time to travel through the cognitive realm?

Question 2 : Time in the Cosmere on the physical realm is also relative. As proven by the ability of investiture to affect speed of time ( Chromium and Bendalloy) Fundamentally it doesn’t create time travel into the past complications consideting that it s very similar to time relativity on earth. But does a time dilatation in the physical realm affect the cognitive realm. Basically is there a superposition of Realms or not. And if so does that mean that someone using a bendalloy/chromium in a place of the physical realm could freeze someone traveling through the cognitive realm ( and or make them speed up). Which could create time travel complications if the speed in the cognitive realm is C ( relative to the physical realm obviously)

Question 3 : If there is no superposition of Realms what would happen if one were to open a perpendicularity in a Bendalloy/Chromium bubble?

By the way i m willing to learn i m an imbecile and don’t understand anything to realmatic magic

 

 

[Quantus he/him]

First off, Welcome to the Shard!

 

1.  It's not really that orderly. The Cognitive realm simply doesnt follow strict geometry (like how the sphere of Roshar is a plane with edges to other worlds) and doesnt perfectly map 1:1 to the Physical Realm.  Only areas with significant populations (or at least significant and specific thoughts about them, like a moon that hasnt been reached) are reflected. So the distances between planets get compressed to basically nothing, and are not very orderly, but could change/expand if a large enough population moved to space, which is gunna start happening eventually.  

2. This is more of a more of a sidebar, but I would argue that Time in the Cosmere is still Objective, just varied and manipulatable, in the same way a persons Age is an objective thing that atium compounding can only pull away from it's "true" point, with all the snap-back effect that can happen.  But different locations can have different "natural" rates, per normal relativity with physical gravity, and a similar effect with extreme concentrations of Investiture (like the Dor, and likely Shardpools).

That all being said, the Superposition question is a good one.  Different planetary regions of the cognitive realm have different expressions, like weird Rosharan inversion that has both people and objects reduced to flames and beads that are in the general vicinity of their Physical counterparts but not directly co-locating.  But there's more visible overlap with the misty effect seen on Scadrial.

3. I dont think we know, but it's a good question.  I suspect it would simply overload and pop the bubble, which can happen with aluminum as an example.  Now, if somebody like a Bondsmith were doing it and trying to actively Connect to the allomancer, all kinds of trans-magic weirdness could likely happen.

[Treamayne]

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1 hour ago, Metraton said:

Here we go :

Question 1 : Distance are different in the cognitive and the physical realms. And much less in the cognitive realm but considering that time travel to the past is impossible, one cannot travel faster than light in the cognitive realm, implying that the speed of light ( maximum traveling speed)  in the cognitive realm is smaller than in the physical realm. Would that be correct? Of course it would still make travel faster but dependent on the maximum speed that can be reached.

Like if we assume that a character travel from Roshar to Scadrial and the two planets are say 5 light years appart he would take 5 years of relative time to travel through the cognitive realm?

Depends on your definition(s) of FTL. If you mean "total distanced traveled in the PR is greater than the same distance light could travel in the time you were travelling" then, travel through Shadesmar would possibly qualify. Travel from one planet to another is, generally, weeks (not years). 

However, if you mean "travel in a way that surpasses the speed of light" then travel through Shadesmar would not qualify. You are travelling at a normal speed in a normal timeframe - you just get to shortcut the distance required by traveling through Shadesmar (possibly similar to a planar intersection of a sphere). Areas with no Cognitive representation in Shadesmar simply don't exist. To use made-up-notional examples Travelling from Earth to Saturn might be days in Sol's Shadesmar just because some distance exists where space has "consenrual reality" as people think about the Moon, Mars, Asteroid belt and Jupiter (each would had some amount of "distance" in Shadesmar). So total distance travelled in the physical realm is high, but the distance your physical body moved is still low. 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Metraton said:

Question 2 : Time in the Cosmere on the physical realm is also relative. As proven by the ability of investiture to affect speed of time ( Chromium and Bendalloy) Fundamentally it doesn’t create time travel into the past complications considering that it s very similar to time relativity on earth. But does a time dilatation in the physical realm affect the cognitive realm? Basically is there a superposition of Realms or not. And if so does that mean that someone using a bendalloy/chromium in a place of the physical realm could freeze someone traveling through the cognitive realm ( and or make them speed up). Which could create time travel complications if the speed in the cognitive realm is C ( relative to the physical realm obviously)

We do not have this answer. Supposedly, it wil be a factor in Mistborn Era 3 and all questions on this have received RAFOs (that I can find).

1 hour ago, Metraton said:

Question 3 : If there is no superposition of Realms what would happen if one were to open a perpendicularity in a Bendalloy/Chromium bubble?

By the way I'm willing to learn, I'm an imbecile and don’t understand anything to realmatic magic

We do not yet have this answer. 

May we ask what (if any) books you have not yet read (so spoilers can be avoided)? Also, are you familiar with the Coppermind and Arcanum? Keep in mind that spoilers can abound in those resources, if you have not read all of the Cosmere. 

Spoiler

Using Coppermind and Arcanum:

• Go to the Coppermind, you can search a term in the upper right. On the top-right of the page (below the search bar) you will see a circle icon that denotes how "complete" the information is (e.g. solid green means it has all known information, split white/blck means unanswered questions, etc.)
  • Like any wiki, links to other pages appear the first time they are referenced
  • While reading you will find notes ([1]) that take you to the references at the bottom of the page. From there, if the reference is a WoB the link will redirect you to the Arcanum post.
• On the Arcanum, you can read all of the WoBs from a specific event by clicking: Discover > Events, then select an event.
• When looking at a WoB in the arcanum, you can:
  • Click on the event name to read all WoBs from that event
  • Click on a tag at the bottom to make a search of all entries with that tag
• Also, on the Arcanum, you can search for keywords using the search bar in the upper left
  • While searching a tag, the advanced search will be at the top of the page, so you can keyword search within a specific tag (example)
• In any keyword or tag search you can order by newest, oldest, or accuracy with accuracy being the default.

Hope that helps

 

[Metraton]

37 minutes ago, Quantus said:

First off, Welcome to the Shard!

 

1.  It's not really that orderly. The Cognitive realm simply doesnt follow strict geometry (like how the sphere of Roshar is a plane with edges to other worlds) and doesnt perfectly map 1:1 to the Physical Realm.  Only areas with significant populations (or at least significant and specific thoughts about them, like a moon that hasnt been reached) are reflected. So the distances between planets get compressed to basically nothing, and are not very orderly, but could change/expand if a large enough population moved to space, which is gunna start happening eventually.  

2. This is more of a more of a sidebar, but I would argue that Time in the Cosmere is still Objective, just varied and manipulatable, in the same way a persons Age is an objective thing that atium compounding can only pull away from it's "true" point, with all the snap-back effect that can happen.  But different locations can have different "natural" rates, per normal relativity with physical gravity, and a similar effect with extreme concentrations of Investiture (like the Dor, and likely Shardpools).

That all being said, the Superposition question is a good one.  Different planetary regions of the cognitive realm have different expressions, like weird Rosharan inversion that has both people and objects reduced to flames and beads that are in the general vicinity of their Physical counterparts but not directly co-locating.  But there's more visible overlap with the misty effect seen on Scadrial.

3. I dont think we know, but it's a good question.  I suspect it would simply overload and pop the bubble, which can happen with aluminum as an example.  Now, if somebody like a Bondsmith were doing it and trying to actively Connect to the allomancer, all kinds of trans-magic weirdness could likely happen.

Thank you very much, i ve followed the forum for years but never suscribed before.

1. i understand the distance dilatation thing, my problem is with the traveling speed in the cognitive realm, the time spent to travel distance in the physical realm at light speed has to be superior or equal to the same time spent (in the eye of the observers) by a world hopper in the cognitive realm, so to speak because FTL travel always mean time travel. So even if distances and perception of time are different in the cognitive realm for the observer they must remain coherent. Do we agree?

2. Yes i agree ( which is what i mean by relative, i mean black holes do exists and so on). Are investiture black holes possible btw? ( okay that s me sidetracking)

3) Thanks for the answer on this one i ll wait and see on this one

[Metraton]

40 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the forums. Here are some tips and trick you may not yet be familiar with on this type of forum:

  Reveal hidden contents

At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link, and (your posts only) and Edit and Options tools. On the bottom right you will see an up arrow.

• The Up Arrow is how you thank people or "like" a post
• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
• The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you click that for each post
  • As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have
  • They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply
  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote" button that pops up.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
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• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
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Hope that helps.

Depends on your definition(s) of FTL. If you mean "total distanced traveled in the PR is greater than the same distance light could travel in the time you were travelling" then, travel through Shadesmar would possibly qualify. Travel from one planet to another is, generally, weeks (not years). 

However, if you mean "travel in a way that surpasses the speed of light" then travel through Shadesmar would not qualify. You are travelling at a normal speed in a normal timeframe - you just get to shortcut the distance required by traveling through Shadesmar (possibly similar to a planar intersection of a sphere). Areas with no Cognitive representation in Shadesmar simply don't exist. To use made-up-notional examples Travelling from Earth to Saturn might be days in Sol's Shadesmar just because some distance exists where space has "consenrual reality" as people think about the Moon, Mars, Asteroid belt and Jupiter (each would had some amount of "distance" in Shadesmar). So total distance travelled in the physical realm is high, but the distance your physical body moved is still low. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

We do not have this answer. Supposedly, it wil be a factor in Mistborn Era 3 and all questions on this have received RAFOs (that I can find).

We do not yet have this answer. 

May we ask what (if any) books you have not yet read (so spoilers can be avoided)? Also, are you familiar with the Coppermind and Arcanum? Keep in mind that spoilers can abound in those resources, if you have not read all of the Cosmere. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Using Coppermind and Arcanum:

• Go to the Coppermind, you can search a term in the upper right. On the top-right of the page (below the search bar) you will see a circle icon that denotes how "complete" the information is (e.g. solid green means it has all known information, split white/blck means unanswered questions, etc.)
  • Like any wiki, links to other pages appear the first time they are referenced
  • While reading you will find notes ([1]) that take you to the references at the bottom of the page. From there, if the reference is a WoB the link will redirect you to the Arcanum post.
• On the Arcanum, you can read all of the WoBs from a specific event by clicking: Discover > Events, then select an event.
• When looking at a WoB in the arcanum, you can:
  • Click on the event name to read all WoBs from that event
  • Click on a tag at the bottom to make a search of all entries with that tag
• Also, on the Arcanum, you can search for keywords using the search bar in the upper left
  • While searching a tag, the advanced search will be at the top of the page, so you can keyword search within a specific tag (example)
• In any keyword or tag search you can order by newest, oldest, or accuracy with accuracy being the default.

Hope that helps

 

Thanks, glad to be here. I actually know the forum just never created an account beforehand.

I think i ve read everything though i was completely drunk when i read shadow for silence in the forest of hell and so my memory of it is somewhat vague.

now to answer :

1. See that s where my problem lie FTL travel shouldn’t be possible at all even via cognitive shadow travel. Because one cannot arrive at a place before the light he emitted without travelling back in time. So there got to be an upper limit to cognitive shadow travelling it from the POV of the physical realm. Like if i leave earth for alpha centauru it might appear to me in the cognitive realm that it takes me 3 weeks but really i will arrive 4 years after ( as if i travelled at light speed). But since the distance also are different in the cognitive realm it naturally result there must be a maximum perceived speed. So to say. At the very least if i travel with someone through it and we perceive time there the same way then our speed is necessarily limited.

Thank you very much to you all for the warm welcome. I must also add that i m french and so some of my readings have been in that language meaning i might sometimes take times to answer to check the french translation of concepts evocated.

 

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Metraton said:

Here we go :

Question 1 : Distance are different in the cognitive and the physical realms. And much less in the cognitive realm but considering that time travel to the past is impossible, one cannot travel faster than light in the cognitive realm, implying that the speed of light ( maximum traveling speed)  in the cognitive realm is smaller than in the physical realm. Would that be correct? Of course it would still make travel faster but dependent on the maximum speed that can be reached.

The speed of light is still the same. The only difference between CR and PR is that CR is shorter - where there is no mind, there is no space in CR. Therefore the distances between planets are literally just a few steps. But the speed of light is still the same. A person from PR would say that a person in CR traveled faster than the speed of light because of that, but the person in CR just made a few steps, definitely not even close to the speed of light. But those are different dimensions.

2 hours ago, Metraton said:

Like if we assume that a character travel from Roshar to Scadrial and the two planets are say 5 light years appart he would take 5 years of relative time to travel through the cognitive realm?

No, just few steps as once he leave Rosharan subastral, he's in space and because in space there is no minds, CR is very contracted and doesn't represent space. So he only have to take few steps and is on Scadrial. Once you on the edge of subastral it would take you most likely minutes to get to another subastral, and in PR minutes would also pass, not years.

WoB found, it takes just days to cross a space in between planets in CR. Days will also pass in PR.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shadesmar- you can WALK to the other planets. It’s a pretty far ways away (at least days, if not more), but you can go to Shadesmar, walk in the directions where it says "The Realm of the Vapors" and it runs into Scadrial (which is confirmed). In Shadesmar all of that empty space doesn't really have any human interaction, so it doesn't really have an aspect in the cognitive realm, so all of that place gets shortened immensely. Whenever a planet has enough thinking life on it that's it's considering it a planet, it drops into Shadesmar.

Eventually, he’ll come out with a Shadesmar map of the Cosmere, and a Starmap as well.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

SH spoilers:

Spoiler

Questioner

So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. So when Kelsier is in Shadesmar, he meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrians. How far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's within-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into, kind of, the darkness between planets. 

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner

Okay, so he's still in the Scadrian system, just not--just edging a bit there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yep. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point him in that <a map>. It gets really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like, he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson

It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it. If people are thinking about it - like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware of its presence, would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause-- but thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

2 hours ago, Metraton said:

Question 2 : Time in the Cosmere on the physical realm is also relative. As proven by the ability of investiture to affect speed of time ( Chromium and Bendalloy) Fundamentally it doesn’t create time travel into the past complications consideting that it s very similar to time relativity on earth. But does a time dilatation in the physical realm affect the cognitive realm. Basically is there a superposition of Realms or not. And if so does that mean that someone using a bendalloy/chromium in a place of the physical realm could freeze someone traveling through the cognitive realm ( and or make them speed up). Which could create time travel complications if the speed in the cognitive realm is C ( relative to the physical realm obviously)

TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

 

We know from TLM that a time bubble in CR doesn't affect PR at all, opposite is therefore the same, a time bubble in PR doesn't affect CR at all. 

 

But Shards or Stormfather can likely cause time dilation in both realms, as any massive amounts of investiture brought into PR or CR will cause time dilations.

Spoiler

Jeremy

If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that.

That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

2 hours ago, Metraton said:

Question 3 : If there is no superposition of Realms what would happen if one were to open a perpendicularity in a Bendalloy/Chromium bubble?

Another person stepping into the perpendicularity will get affected by the bubble in PR when he travels to PR, or a person in a bubble in PR will step out of the bubble when he goes through the perpendicularity. Just normal leaving and entering bubbles.

[Treamayne]

53 minutes ago, Metraton said:

Because one cannot arrive at a place before the light he emitted without travelling back in time.

You are going to have to explain what you mean by that.

Are you asking if the light reflected from <person standing on Roshar> is visible from Scadrial and that somehow effects <person on Roshar> transitioning to Shadesmar, walking a few weeks then transitioning to Scadrial's Physical realm?

The light reflected from a person is simply photons travelling at the speed of light. Nobody is "going back in time" when they see this reflected light - they are meerly witnessing "an event that happened previously." IRLEx: When we "witness" a supernova in a distant star cluster - we are not going back in time - it has simply taken <x qty of time> for the light of that event to reach Earth and be "seen."

When a physical person transitions (Shardpool, Elsecalling, etc) into Shadesmar (CR) then there is no physical representation on the physical realm. They travel via Shadesmar to <location 2> and transition back to the physical realm. The distance in the physical realm does not matter at all to teh distance travelled in Shadesmar or the time that the travel took. 

Non-Cosmere:

If you have read Dresden Files - it's very similar to how travel works in the Never Never; but without requiring the Sympathetic link to transition. If you have not read Dresden Files, you probably should (if you like Urban Fantasy at all). 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG / Ref

[Metraton]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The speed of light is still the same. The only difference between CR and PR is that CR is shorter - where there is no mind, there is no space in CR. Therefore the distances between planets are literally just a few steps. But the speed of light is still the same. A person from PR would say that a person in CR traveled faster than the speed of light because of that, but the person in CR just made a few steps, definitely not even close to the speed of light. But those are different dimensions.

No, just few steps as once he leave Rosharan subastral, he's in space and because in space there is no minds, CR is very contracted and doesn't represent space. So he only have to take few steps and is on Scadrial. Once you on the edge of subastral it would take you most likely minutes to get to another subastral, and in PR minutes would also pass, not years.

WoB found, it takes just days to cross a space in between planets in CR. Days will also pass in PR.

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shadesmar- you can WALK to the other planets. It’s a pretty far ways away (at least days, if not more), but you can go to Shadesmar, walk in the directions where it says "The Realm of the Vapors" and it runs into Scadrial (which is confirmed). In Shadesmar all of that empty space doesn't really have any human interaction, so it doesn't really have an aspect in the cognitive realm, so all of that place gets shortened immensely. Whenever a planet has enough thinking life on it that's it's considering it a planet, it drops into Shadesmar.

Eventually, he’ll come out with a Shadesmar map of the Cosmere, and a Starmap as well.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

SH spoilers:

  Hide contents

Questioner

So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. So when Kelsier is in Shadesmar, he meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrians. How far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's within-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into, kind of, the darkness between planets. 

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner

Okay, so he's still in the Scadrian system, just not--just edging a bit there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yep. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point him in that <a map>. It gets really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like, he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson

It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it. If people are thinking about it - like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware of its presence, would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause-- but thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

TLM spoilers:

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We know from TLM that a time bubble in CR doesn't affect PR at all, opposite is therefore the same, a time bubble in PR doesn't affect CR at all. 

 

But Shards or Stormfather can likely cause time dilation in both realms, as any massive amounts of investiture brought into PR or CR will cause time dilations.

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Jeremy

If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that.

That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

Another person stepping into the perpendicularity will get affected by the bubble in PR when he travels to PR, or a person in a bubble in PR will step out of the bubble when he goes through the perpendicularity. Just normal leaving and entering bubbles.

Actually fascinating, and i got most of my answers. But the first thing does cause some issues. Essentially the two days of walking in Shadesmar represent two days in the physical realm? even if there is lightyears of distance?

That means you arrive a place before the light that was emitted from your body arrives there so it does enable time travel. Unless you consider that in the cosmere time is absolute? How do you resolve this issue ?
 

[alder24]

Just now, Metraton said:

Actually fascinating, and i got most of my answers. But the first thing does cause some issues. Essentially the two days of walking in Shadesmar represent two days in the physical realm? even if there is lightyears of distance?

Yes.

Just now, Metraton said:

That means you arrive a place before the light that was emitted from your body arrives there so it does enable time travel. Unless you consider that in the cosmere time is absolute? How do you resolve this issue ?

No, because you physically weren't in PR. You were in CR, which is different from PR. You physically traveled into CR and from there you just took a short walk. Because in Cosmere you have this another dimension kind of, like another layer of spacetime, you bypass this problem by using that layer (CR) to physically travel to another planet in days. But you weren't in PR at all. This problem simply doesn't apply because CR is different from PR. In CR, photons that you emitted on Scadrial already pass Roshar when you arrive there, you arrived there after those photons arrived on Rosharan subastral. Everything checks out. You have to look at photons in CR not PR, because you're in CR and you're traveling in CR, not PR.

[Quantus he/him]

14 minutes ago, Metraton said:

Thank you very much, i ve followed the forum for years but never suscribed before.

1. i understand the distance dilatation thing, my problem is with the traveling speed in the cognitive realm, the time spent to travel distance in the physical realm at light speed has to be superior or equal to the same time spent (in the eye of the observers) by a world hopper in the cognitive realm, so to speak because FTL travel always mean time travel. So even if distances and perception of time are different in the cognitive realm for the observer they must remain coherent. Do we agree?

Ahhh, not yet, but Im trying. I still dont see your point/problem with two realms' means of travel, and Im not sure what you mean by Coherent in this context.  They are two separate worlds with a lot of interconnection that operate on non-physical rules and mechanisms.   

23 minutes ago, Metraton said:

1. See that s where my problem lie FTL travel shouldn’t be possible at all even via cognitive shadow travel. Because one cannot arrive at a place before the light he emitted without travelling back in time. So there got to be an upper limit to cognitive shadow travelling it from the POV of the physical realm. Like if i leave earth for alpha centauru it might appear to me in the cognitive realm that it takes me 3 weeks but really i will arrive 4 years after ( as if i travelled at light speed). But since the distance also are different in the cognitive realm it naturally result there must be a maximum perceived speed. So to say. At the very least if i travel with someone through it and we perceive time there the same way then our speed is necessarily limited.

 

I think this part is just not true in the Cosmere's Three Realm's model, or at least it would only still hold true in the Physical Realm. 

There are three kinds of travel in the cosmere possible:

1. Physicals Realm travel that we've been told will eventually allow for Sci-fi style FTL to actually move through the physical vastness between worlds in the star cluster that is the Cosmere (and is an absolute rabbit-hole of insanity thanks to the lack of redshift effects in Speed Bubbles).   
2. Cognitive Realm travel where you transition your body to a completely other dimension, walk around for a bit, and transition back from a different place with different Connections to the Physical realm; you dont actually reach relativistic speeds and require/gain the necessary Energy involved in that, you are just traversing a different geography entirely and the realities and limitation of the -physical realm simply dont reach over.
3. And then there is still Spiritual Travel, which is actual instantaneous teleportation through the Spiritual Realm where all space and time exists as one, and infinite energy can pour in and out to balance the equations when magic breaks reality (this is the go-to explanation in WOB's).  

Both the second and third options will allow you to outrun your own shadow, so to speak, because the sliding time scale of general relativity dont factor in for those circumstances.  

[Firesong she/her]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:18 AM, alder24 said:

 

TLM spoilers:

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We know from TLM that a time bubble in CR doesn't affect PR at all, opposite is therefore the same, a time bubble in PR doesn't affect CR at all. 

 

 

I don't remember this, I only remember us seeing the other side for a short scene where Time Bubbles were irrelevant. Can you try and show the passage?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

I don't remember this, I only remember us seeing the other side for a short scene where Time Bubbles were irrelevant. Can you try and show the passage?

TLM:

Spoiler

Marasi threw a primar cube on the other side of perpendicularity and the bubble slowed down the man of gold and red in CR while they in PR were unaffected. TLM ch 64:

Quote

No you don’t, she thought. Then she dropped both her grenades, and used the same mental command to open the portal to them.
The movement on the other side stopped. Frozen in time as the Allomancers around her continued—wide eyed—drawing from the pool. Siphoning away the awesome power until, at last, the glow faded. The room was suddenly a normal ballroom again, with a hewn-out rock pit in the floor some three feet deep.
She was left with one final impression from the other side. Shock. Judging by how much energy she’d put into those grenades, it would be a while before the army discovered what had happened.

 

 

[Firesong she/her]

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

TLM:

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Marasi threw a primar cube on the other side of perpendicularity and the bubble slowed down the man of gold and red in CR while they in PR were unaffected. TLM ch 64:

 

 

Oh yeah, that did happen. Thanks for reminding me. 

It does make sense, it is pretty consistently shown that physical changes to the world don't really change the Cognitive Realm. Not instantly, at least. It would effect it over time if you leave it for like, a few months. But that wouldn't happen the other way around. 

I am 99% sure it was confirmed that Mental effects can bypass realms. I remember some SA stuff with emotional allomancy-esque effects permeating both realms. 

But Physical, it doesn't. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Firesong