The inspiration for spren

[in Truth,watcher of tv]

This isn’t really a theory, I just kind of wanted to highlight and enjoy this little feature. Some people have probably already noticed but some people won’t have.
Basically, spren are cartoons and animation flourishes. Roshar as a setting is partially inspired by anime (if the ridiculously large magical swords weren’t a giveaway), and many of the spren are pretty much exactly how abstract and intangible concepts are expressed in cartoons and anime. For instance:

Windspren are how wind is portrayed; as a long, pale, translucent line
Concentrationspren are like the ripples sometimes used to show psychic powers
Musicspren would take the shapes of musical notation if they were on Earth
I’m fairly sure anxietyspren are the throbbing forehead veins used when a character is stressed
Logicspren are literally brainstorms

[KaladinWorldsinger]

You just blew my mind with logicspren. I have been wondering soooo long why logicspren are shaped like stormclouds

 

[Firesong]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:31 AM, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

This isn’t really a theory, I just kind of wanted to highlight and enjoy this little feature. Some people have probably already noticed but some people won’t have.
Basically, spren are cartoons and animation flourishes. Roshar as a setting is partially inspired by anime (if the ridiculously large magical swords weren’t a giveaway), and many of the spren are pretty much exactly how abstract and intangible concepts are expressed in cartoons and anime. For instance:

Windspren are how wind is portrayed; as a long, pale, translucent line
Concentrationspren are like the ripples sometimes used to show psychic powers
Musicspren would take the shapes of musical notation if they were on Earth
I’m fairly sure anxietyspren are the throbbing forehead veins used when a character is stressed
Logicspren are literally brainstorms

The thing on swords is actually just incorrect, straight up. He talked about his inspiration and it was mostly based on a western fantasy book cover he saw (forgot which one it was), 

Quote

Questioner

How did you come up with Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing, I've seen a lot of fantasy art-- I love fantasy books, right-- and people often depict these enormous swords, which are completely impractical. So one of my pitches for Stormlight was "I want a world where they had to have weapons like they depict in this fantasy art" and I retrofitted it, what would they need these to actually fight? So that was the pitch for myself on Shardblades. And I was also annoyed that the coolest magic swords were in a science fiction story, Star Wars, I want cool magic swords that are not in a science fiction story.

And it was also based on the idea of swords that don't have traditional physical limitations (such as density or practicality), and on the idea of a Spren's fantastical interpretation of the idea of a sword. 

I can't find the WoB that mentioned the particular cover that really inspired it. It was like, a 80s or 90s fantasy book with a cover of a man holding an overly long sword. Brandon talked about it before but I can't find the WoB for it. 

I just feel you are making a pretty big logical leap there without much basis. He has actually explicitly said he doesn't really watch much anime or read much manga. He has a few he likes, but really only dabbles in it. 

He has played FFVII, but he talked about how the idea of Shardblades actually predates it, again, iirc. 

 

I don't really see the connection for anxietyspren, the anime trope you are talking about is about anger, and mostly uses red. I also wouldn't call them a cross or twisting, and are associated more with anxiety and worry. So, I feel you are off with that one. Furthermore, why would they think of that as connected with anxiety? It is an idea that purely comes from exaggeration and stylism in a animated medium that does not exist on Roshar.  I feel "twisting" implies that they look tightly bound (I imagine them as being like two parts twisting around each other), which would be like, about how anxiety and worry make your chest feel tight. 

The Concentrationspren one is also a big stretch. I feel thematically it probably has more to do with forms of meditation exercises, where you concentrate on drops of water slowly falling into a still pond,  creating ripples. That would make more sense than "anime has some powers shown by ripples, and anime also often makes you need to concentrate to use powers", in my own opinion. It would also fit more in where Stormlight takes inspiration from, that being the ancient and medieval east, middle east, and near-east. This would also fit as they are most common in various parts of Makabak, who takes a lot of inspiration from Persia and the Indian Subcontinent, which would support this inspiration for them.   

The Musicspren is just a guess I can't find any confirmation on or support for. They don't take the form of any kind of musical notation on Roshar, they take the form of ribbons. They seem to take more inspiration from ideas of dancing to music, as the ribbons are depicted as almost dancing (likely as the spren itself is dancing in the CR). Likely arose from the idea of ribbon-dancing. 

It is important to note that while Spren are influenced by mankind, they are not completely defined by them. Spren make up their own ecosystem and take on the form of fantastical animals that we only see parts of. Meaning to be completely based on ideas like that, would imply that the entirety of their biology (which people do not see) are based on what people think of them, and a lot of the times it is very abstract, like rainspren being blue-flamed candles that appear to melt, but never get smaller; or anguishspren looking like teeth growing from the wall; or Shockspren looking like yellow triangles breaking apart and reforming..

Others are more literal, like how rotspren appear as small insects due to how corpses attract bugs as they rot, thus they associate insects with rot; or captivityspren looking like taut wires crossing over themselves in front of you; or angerspren being boiling pools of blood (as when one gets angry, it feels as if ones blood increasing in temperature, ergo terms like "hot-blooded" or "blood boiling"); or starspren as little specks of light in the sky.

I don't see any pattern of anime-influence beyond the very vague connection between anxietyspren and an anime trope for a different emotion, due to just a vague similarity in shape. The others, I don't see a connection at all, beyond maybe Angerspren, but that is just due to many cultures having the same idea of "anger = hot" due to the fact that it is something everyone experiences. If it was all intentional I would expect more of a pattern to emerge over many spren, and that just is not what one observes.

Brainstorm I agree with to an extent, but that was a term that started in America, and spread across the world, not really anything to do with anime. That is why I didn't mention it in support of your theory. It technically does have a history that goes back further, but the early use of it just meant a seizure. 

Overall, not a big fan of this theory, I just see way to many holes in it from an in-world and meta level. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Firesong

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

 

30 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I don't really see the connection for anxietyspren, the anime trope you are talking about is about anger, and mostly uses red. I also wouldn't call them a cross or twisting, and are associated more with anxiety and worry. So, I feel you are off with that one. Furthermore, why would they think of that as connected with anxiety? It is an idea that purely comes from exaggeration and stylism in a animated medium that does not exist on Roshar.  I feel "twisting" implies that they look tightly bound (I imagine them as being like two parts twisting around each other), which would be like, about how anxiety and worry make your chest feel tight.

I don't know about that. I've seen plenty of black anger-vein thingies, and I don't watch anime, so I've mostly seen it in other animated shows, like cartoons. As for why they show up this way, Like you said later, they're influenced by people's perceptions but not totally defined by them, so the in-world reason could be that's just how their true forms in Shadesmar look like, and they can be seen as an allusion to the angry vein thingies from a Doylist perspective. I always imagined them as an outline of a "+" that spin vertically, and this theory of them made pretty good sense to me, given how I'd imagined them.

30 minutes ago, Firesong said:

The Concentrationspren one is also a big stretch. I feel thematically it probably has more to do with forms of meditation exercises, where you concentrate on drops of water slowly falling into a still pond,  creating ripples. That would make more sense than "anime has some powers shown by ripples, and anime also often makes you need to concentrate to use powers", in my own opinion. It would also fit more in where Stormlight takes inspiration from, that being the ancient and medieval east, middle east, and near-east. This would also fit as they are most common in various parts of Makabak, who takes a lot of inspiration from Persia and the Indian Subcontinent, which would support this inspiration for them.

Again, haven't seen much anime, but I've seen visual effects like these in cartoons, and it makes sense to me. I was initially also supportive of your idea of them being inspired by meditative imagery, but upon mulling on it a bit more, I don't think it makes sense for the context we see Concentrationspren in. Meditation is about a relaxed kind of focus, whereas in the series we see them show up more around Scholars who are heavily engaged in active thinking, something that's more in line with people trying to focus hard and use psychic abilities than meditation.

30 minutes ago, Firesong said:

  The Musicspren is just a guess I can't find any confirmation on or support for. They don't take the form of any kind of musical notation on Roshar, they take the form of ribbons. They seem to take more inspiration from ideas of dancing to music, as the ribbons are depicted as almost dancing (likely as the spren itself is dancing in the CR). Likely arose from the idea of ribbon-dancing.

This one I agree with you on. I always imagined them as really small streamers that spin vertically around music. I suppose one could make the argument that they could represent the way Rosharans write musical notes, but that's a really big stretch with basically no evidence.

30 minutes ago, Firesong said:

It is important to note that while Spren are influenced by mankind, they are not completely defined by them. Spren make up their own ecosystem and take on the form of fantastical animals that we only see parts of. Meaning to be completely based on ideas like that, would imply that the entirety of their biology (which people do not see) are based on what people think of them.

Overall, not a big fan of this theory, I just see way to many holes in it from an in-world and meta level. 

I'm not too pressed about it, I personally think of spren as not entirely determined by humankind, so the little quirks of how they appear that aren't linked to specific ideas relating to the thing they're attracted to can be assumed to be inspired by real-life things. Most of these make sense to me, even though I've never watched anime or seen these sorts of depictions in them, so for me, it works.

[Firesong]

1 minute ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

 

1- I don't know about that. I've seen plenty of black anger-vein thingies, and I don't watch anime, so I've mostly seen it in other animated shows, like cartoons. As for why they show up this way, Like you said later, they're influenced by people's perceptions but not totally defined by them, so the in-world reason could be that's just how their true forms in Shadesmar look like, and they can be seen as an allusion to the angry vein thingies from a Doylist perspective. I always imagined them as an outline of a "+" that spin vertically, and this theory of them made pretty good sense to me, given how I'd imagined them.

2- Again, haven't seen much anime, but I've seen visual effects like these in cartoons, and it makes sense to me. I was initially also supportive of your idea of them being inspired by meditative imagery, but upon mulling on it a bit more, I don't think it makes sense for the context we see Concentrationspren in. Meditation is about a relaxed kind of focus, whereas in the series we see them show up more around Scholars who are heavily engaged in active thinking, something that's more in line with people trying to focus hard and use psychic abilities than meditation.

This one I agree with you on. I always imagined them as really small streamers that spin vertically around music. I suppose one could make the argument that they could represent the way Rosharans write musical notes, but that's a really big stretch with basically no evidence.

I'm not too pressed about it, I personally think of spren as not entirely determined by humankind, so the little quirks of how they appear that aren't linked to specific ideas relating to the thing they're attracted to can be assumed to be inspired by real-life things. Most of these make sense to me, even though I've never watched anime or seen these sorts of depictions in them, so for me, it works.

1. Sure, but it doesn't change that the context in which Anxietyspren appear is completely and utterly unrelated to where the trope shows up on every level. These are about worry, the trope is about fury. The connection is very vague and a massive stretch. I would believe it more if they were used for angerspren, but when used for anxietyspren, well, that is a completely different emotion. Thus I oppose this connection due to the fact that it requires more leaps in logic, as it, for one, is based upon the idea that SA is inspired by anime (that covered more in 2 and 2.1) The jump between what emotion they are meant to represent I feel is too broad to be passable without a lot of scrutiny. 
2. Again, yes, but it is, once again, a very vague connection. And on the connection with meditation, I know it is still vague, but at least it is directly a concentration exercise, and has connection with where Makabaki countries find their primary inspirations. There are less steps of disconnection. It is simply "this is a thing used for a singular focus that comes from a place on which the place that concentrationspren appear most is based on (based on some WoBs and in-book terminology like Vizier)  --> concentration spren show up when people are focused", their hypothesis is "big swords appear in anime ---> Brandon did get the idea from anime (he says otherwise) ---> some powers in anime are depicted with ripples ---> various powers in anime require one to focus to use power ---> Thus concentration is associated with these powers ---> Ripples are associated with concentration ----> Concentrationspren are based on this", it is far more steps of disconnection, even if you try to  it is very very vague, and based upon a false premise. (2.1) You can say it has a rate of separation of 5 or 6. While my own has one of 2. 
   1. On it being a false premise, as I stated in the comment, Brandon has talked about the big swords actually being based more upon western fantasy covers, and on the idea of fantastical entities creating a fantastical imitation of swords without having to deal with normal limitations of practicality and mass. He also also stated repeatedly he only really dabbles in anime and manga, and doesn't consume it all that often. And that Shardblades predate FFVII, which is one thing you could attempt to trace the idea to given him being a fan of the Final Fantasy series. You also would expect Brandon to have mentioned it when asked his inspirations over the decade since WoK came out if anime was a major inspiration. I know argument from absence isn't the best evidence, but I feel it is a valid point in this case due to how many times he has been asked for his inspirations on things like this. 
3. I feel you did ignore a bit the way how this isn't really a pattern that holds. Only 2 actually fit the idea, and even those are very vague and require several logical leaps and rely upon an inaccurate assumption to act as their bedrock. I looked through the list of spren (both in my memory and on coppermind), and could not find a continued pattern for this idea, at least not enough to fit with the idea that "spren are based on visual tropes in Japanese animation." 

My belief on such theories, is that a theory's validity is jeopardized by unfounded assumptions, the more of such assumptions one makes, the less believable the theory becomes as it becomes distorted by each assumption, and this theory is fundamentally based upon an assumption that is not only unfounded, but disproven. Therefore making me question it greatly. 

It doesn't work from either a Watsonian or Doylist perspective, both of which put the idea into question (Doylist especially puts it into question), in my own opinion. 

(also, note, not arguing this so heavily due to a dislike of anime. I watch (or rather, watched, haven't done much lately) a lot of anime, and read a lot of manga, I am just arguing as I simply find this theory extremely unlikely due to the 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

7 hours ago, Firesong said:

1. Sure, but it doesn't change that the context in which Anxietyspren appear is completely and utterly unrelated to where the trope shows up on every level. These are about worry, the trope is about fury. The connection is very vague and a massive stretch. I would believe it more if they were used for angerspren, but when used for anxietyspren, well, that is a completely different emotion. Thus I oppose this connection due to the fact that it requires more leaps in logic, as it, for one, is based upon the idea that SA is inspired by anime (that covered more in 2 and 2.1) The jump between what emotion they are meant to represent I feel is too broad to be passable without a lot of scrutiny. 
2. Again, yes, but it is, once again, a very vague connection. And on the connection with meditation, I know it is still vague, but at least it is directly a concentration exercise, and has connection with where Makabaki countries find their primary inspirations. There are less steps of disconnection. It is simply "this is a thing used for a singular focus that comes from a place on which the place that concentrationspren appear most is based on (based on some WoBs and in-book terminology like Vizier)  --> concentration spren show up when people are focused", their hypothesis is "big swords appear in anime ---> Brandon did get the idea from anime (he says otherwise) ---> some powers in anime are depicted with ripples ---> various powers in anime require one to focus to use power ---> Thus concentration is associated with these powers ---> Ripples are associated with concentration ----> Concentrationspren are based on this", it is far more steps of disconnection, even if you try to  it is very very vague, and based upon a false premise. (2.1) You can say it has a rate of separation of 5 or 6. While my own has one of 2. 
   1. On it being a false premise, as I stated in the comment, Brandon has talked about the big swords actually being based more upon western fantasy covers, and on the idea of fantastical entities creating a fantastical imitation of swords without having to deal with normal limitations of practicality and mass. He also also stated repeatedly he only really dabbles in anime and manga, and doesn't consume it all that often. And that Shardblades predate FFVII, which is one thing you could attempt to trace the idea to given him being a fan of the Final Fantasy series. You also would expect Brandon to have mentioned it when asked his inspirations over the decade since WoK came out if anime was a major inspiration. I know argument from absence isn't the best evidence, but I feel it is a valid point in this case due to how many times he has been asked for his inspirations on things like this. 
3. I feel you did ignore a bit the way how this isn't really a pattern that holds. Only 2 actually fit the idea, and even those are very vague and require several logical leaps and rely upon an inaccurate assumption to act as their bedrock. I looked through the list of spren (both in my memory and on coppermind), and could not find a continued pattern for this idea, at least not enough to fit with the idea that "spren are based on visual tropes in Japanese animation." 

My belief on such theories, is that a theory's validity is jeopardized by unfounded assumptions, the more of such assumptions one makes, the less believable the theory becomes as it becomes distorted by each assumption, and this theory is fundamentally based upon an assumption that is not only unfounded, but disproven. Therefore making me question it greatly. 

It doesn't work from either a Watsonian or Doylist perspective, both of which put the idea into question (Doylist especially puts it into question), in my own opinion. 

(also, note, not arguing this so heavily due to a dislike of anime. I watch (or rather, watched, haven't done much lately) a lot of anime, and read a lot of manga, I am just arguing as I simply find this theory extremely unlikely due to the 

I think your post cut off.

Anywho, you're focusing too much on the idea that it's inspired by anime to add another layer of implausibility on. Even the op mentions when talking about the Spren section of the theory that cartoons could also be an inspiration, and while Brandon evidently doesn't watch much anime, he does have children who he's probably been exposed to cartoons through, if he wasn't already. So none of these are linked directly through the idea that it's solely extrapolated from anime, anime was just also mentioned in the section of the theory about spren because its a similar medium that uses the same or similar techniques to visually represent some concepts that would be hard to visualise otherwise.

Where anxietyspren are concerned, you mentioned that you imagined them as two parts twisting around one another as if to denote the tightness in your chest that anxiety can make people feel. The vein thingy is supposed to represent pulsing veins, and your heartbeat does pick up just as much in anxiety as it does in anger, probably more.

As for Concentrationspren, I see what youre saying, but it just doesn't match the context of where we see them. Not even speaking comparatively, think about it. Yes you can argue that they could have been derived from the same inspirations as Azir, which is one of the places we see them, but meditation doesn't tonally fit with the context they manifest in in the books. So unless Brandon took just the idea that inspired that particular visual out of its context of peaceful and calm meditation and reappropriated it to furious scholarly thinking, I don't see why that would be the case. And if that is what you're trying to say, then that same concept could be used to justify the black cross veins that show up as Anxietyspren. Not to mention, connecting them through Azir's inspirations is a stretch too, considering ALL scholar-related Spren are more common there, because they as a country value and express scholastic thinking more than the Alethi, which we follow for the largest part of the story. On it being a false premise, I argue that it isn't based on anime at all, but rather cartoons, which Brandon will have seen his fair share of (even unwillingly) because kids.

Again you're focusing too much on the idea that it's Japanese derived specifically. Windspren being lines of light, Logicspren being literal brainstorms, that's at least 4 that can be argued as cartoonishly inspired.

I see what you mean about distrusting theories that make logical leaps without much evidence, but that's usually more fitting for a more technical theory. There's a spectrum of theories that range from intended as serious and being heavily grounded in the Canon of the story, with implications for other mechanics if it's true (where pointing out holes in it is very important), to fun theories that have little evidence but also minimal impact on the story and the mechanics of the pseudo-science going on behind the scenes, which is in the realm of headcanons and such. Some theories are just meant to be fun and nonserious, where picking out holes isn't necessary because the theory isn't supposed to be that serious.