Who can Hoid attack? (Who counts as "the living dead?")

[+robardin he/him]

Hoid/Wit's message to Kelsier at the end of RoW, passed via Shallan to Mraize and confirmed as received by him in a WoB, told him to "mind your own planet" and "don't make me come over there and slap you around again":

Quote

Ted Herman

Did Mraize pass on Wit's message to Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

Haha, yes, he did.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

So do you think that was just bluster, or is it something Hoid could actually do?

Of course, Hoid is referring to his throwdown with Kelsier at the Well of Ascension in Mistborn: Secret History, when he was on his way to taking the lerasium bead hundreds of years earlier. At the time, Hoid was surprised - and somewhat pleased - to find that Kelsier being dead "means I can hurt you", because he was a Cognitive Shadow.

Does that loophole in whatever prevents Hoid from doing violence to living things (including eating meat) carry over to Spiked Kelsier Physically On Scadrial? I mean, he's still not "alive" - otherwise he could probably do things like burn Allomantic metals or travel off-world.

But Kelsier is physically on Scadrial (even if he can't leave) when we see him in TLM: he travels over the ocean physically (not through CR), he sits in a chair with his shoes reflecting light as shadows fall on his face when offering GB membership to Marasi, and so on. (He wasn't yet at the end of MB:SH when he appears to Spook only after he dons a hemalurgic earring.)

So was Hoid's ability to "slap Kelsier around" at the Well due to being in the CR, or just Kelsier "being dead/having died"? Because if Hoid really can still physically attack Kelsier on Scadrial because "he's dead", shouldn't that also apply to say, the Heralds and the Fused?

Maybe the Heralds and Fused have never "really" died (debateable with the Fused, whose original bodies are long gone and they are reborn in the vessels of "willing" singers/listeners), but what about a Returned like Vasher?

Edited August 3, 2023 by robardin

[Firesong she/her]

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

Hoid/Wit's message to Kelsier at the end of RoW, passed via Shallan to Mraize and confirmed as received by him in a WoB, told him to "mind your own planet" and "don't make me come over there and slap you around again":

So do you think that was just bluster, or is it something Hoid could actually do?

Of course, Hoid is referring to his throwdown with Kelsier at the Well of Ascension in Mistborn: Secret History, when he was on his way to taking the lerasium bead hundreds of years earlier. At the time, Hoid was surprised - and somewhat pleased - to find that Kelsier being dead "means I can hurt you", because he was a Cognitive Shadow.

Does that loophole in whatever prevents Hoid from doing violence to living things (including eating meat) carry over to Spiked Kelsier Physically On Scadrial? I mean, he's still not "alive" - otherwise he could probably do things like burn Allomantic metals or travel off-world.

But Kelsier is physically on Scadrial (even if he can't leave) when we see him in TLM: he travels over the ocean physically (not through CR), he sits in a chair with his shoes reflecting light as shadows fall on his face when offering GB membership to Marasi, and so on. (He wasn't yet at the end of MB:SH when he appears to Spook only after he dons a hemalurgic earring.)

So was Hoid's ability to "slap Kelsier around" at the Well due to being in the CR, or just Kelsier "being dead/having died"? Because if Hoid really can still physically attack Kelsier on Scadrial because "he's dead", shouldn't that also apply to say, the Heralds and the Fused?

Maybe the Heralds and Fused have never "really" died (debateable with the Fused, whose original bodies are long gone and they are reborn in the vessels of "willing" singers/listeners), but what about a Returned like Vasher?

He theorized it was due to him being dead. You shouldn't take that as 100% accurate. 

My theory was it was just due to him not having a true physical form, so he wouldn't be able to be truly hurt by him attacking him like that. 

[+robardin he/him]

50 minutes ago, Firesong said:

He theorized it was due to him being dead. You shouldn't take that as 100% accurate. 

My theory was it was just due to him not having a true physical form, so he wouldn't be able to be truly hurt by him attacking him like that. 

Yeah, that's the point of this discussion.

Even Hoid was surprised at the time, and he had already had millenia of Cosmere experience, including with "no physical form" beings like spren and whatnot. Maybe he just never tried.

Anyway, I'd say there's a spectrum of possible candidate opponents:

1. A being that has never had a physical form, say, like an honorspren guard at Lasting Integrity
2. A Cognitive Shadow of a being that once had a living body, but no longer - like Kelsier, or an unhosted Fused on Braize
3. A Cognitive Shadow of a being that would have a link to a living body, not its original one (a "hosted" Fused)
4. A  Cognitive Shadow of a being that had died, but reattached to its own body, with loss of identity/memory (e.g., a Returned)
5. A person that "had just died" but was "restored" with Regrowth, retaining identity/memory (e.g., Szeth; maybe even Gawx -> Yanagawn)

And the setting being either Shadesmar/Cognitive Realm, or the Physical Realm ("planetside").

The only example we have is that Hoid was able to slap Kelsier around in the CR, where Kelsier falls into scenario #2 on that list.

And intuitively, I would not see any reason to distinguish between a physical fight in the CR (as Hoid was in MB:SH) and "planetside". It's the nature of the being he'd be fighting, not the setting.

So, starting with that example of Kelsier, then: as of TLM, he's physically on Scadrial, but still not "present" enough to access Allomancy or to leave the planet. Is he then still Scenario #2 or #3, or in between, like 2.5? His physical host has the appearance of his original body, but requires(?) a hemalurgic spike, and isn't "all there".

Can Hoid still fight with him? If so, would that be only in the CR, or even in the streets of Elendel? (I would think the answer is either "no" or "yes" to both, equally.)

As for the later scenarios:

Vasher/Zahel, among the most Realmatically Aware POVs we have in-world, considers scenarios #4 and #5 as equivalent - he refers to Szeth as being like him, except that "she" (Endowment) had removed his mortal memories when he was Returned

Nalan also considered Szeth as having "died", describing him as having "your soul cut through, dead for certain" before restoring him (thus counting him as having paid a death penalty for his crimes, Skybreaker-style).

Gawx was also revived by Lift at the point of death or just after, but he seems fully normal, unlike Szeth whose soul is now visibly "trailing" him.

I think "the Hoid Line" falls between #2 and #3, but where Kelsier in RoW/TLM falls seems to be somewhere in between. So the threat may not be empty.

I also never considered scenario #1 before, whether or not Hoid could have a fight with an honorspren in Lasting Integrity. Maybe not, because the spren would be as fully alive as it'd ever been. So maybe it's not a "Hoid Line" but a "Hoid Zone" with lines between #1 and #2, and another one between #2 and #3.

(...or maybe a deadeye? LOL)

Edited August 3, 2023 by robardin

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Yeah, that's the point of this discussion.

Even Hoid was surprised at the time, and he had already had millenia of Cosmere experience, including with "no physical form" beings like spren and whatnot. Maybe he just never tried.

Anyway, I'd say there's a spectrum of possible candidate opponents:

1. A being that has never had a physical form", say, like an honorspren guard at Lasting Integrity
2. A Cognitive Shadow of a being that once had a living body, but no longer - like Kelsier, or an unhosted Fused on Braize
3. A Cognitive Shadow of a being that would has a link to a living body, not its original one (a "hosted" Fused)
4. A  Cognitive Shadow of a being that had died, but reattached to its own body, with loss of identity/memory (e.g., a Returned)
5. A person that "had just died" but was "restored" with Regrowth, retaining identity/memory (e.g., Szeth; maybe even Gawx -> Yanagawn)

And the setting being either Shadesmar/Cognitive Realm, or the Physical Realm ("planetside").

The only example we have is that Hoid was able to slap Kelsier around in the CR, where Kelsier falls into scenario #2 on that list.

And intuitively, I would not see any reason to distinguish between a physical fight in the CR (as Hoid was in MB:SH) and "planetside". It's the nature of the being he'd be fighting, not the setting.

So, starting with that example of Kelsier, then: as of TLM, he's physically on Scadrial, but still not "present" enough to access Allomancy or to leave the planet. Is he then still Scenario #2 or #3, or in between, like 2.5? His physical host has the appearance of his original body, but requires(?) a hemalurgic spike, and isn't "all there".

Can Hoid still fight with him? If so, would that be only in the CR, or even in the streets of Elendel? (I would think the answer is either "no" or "yes" to both, equally.)

As for the later scenarios:

Vasher/Zahel, among the most Realmatically Aware POVs we have in-world, considers scenarios #4 and #5 as equivalent - he refers to Szeth as being like him, except that "she" (Endowment) had removed his mortal memories when he was Returned

Nalan also considered Szeth as having "died", describing him as having "your soul cut through, dead for certain" before restoring him (thus counting him as having paid a death penalty for his crimes, Skybreaker-style).

Gawx was also revived by Lift at the point of death or just after, but he seems fully normal, unlike Szeth whose soul is now visibly "trailing" him.

I think "the Hoid Line" falls between #2 and #3, but where Kelsier in RoW/TLM falls seems to be somewhere in between. So the threat may not be empty.

My interpretation, is it is just about beings that only have a "physical" form, as in, Cognitive entities that are physical in the CR. They aren't able to be hurt in the same way as physical beings. Like, Kelsier felt pain just because he thought he should, not due to actually experiencing pain, and his body would have experienced no actual damage. 

I do believe that now that he has a physical form, Hoid wouldn't be able to hurt him. 

[+robardin he/him]

4 minutes ago, Firesong said:

My interpretation, is it is just about beings that only have a "physical" form, as in, Cognitive entities that are physical in the CR. They aren't able to be hurt in the same way as physical beings. Like, Kelsier felt pain just because he thought he should, not due to actually experiencing pain, and his body would have experienced no actual damage. 

I do believe that now that he has a physical form, Hoid wouldn't be able to hurt him. 

Does either or both of Hoid or Kelsier know/believe that, though?

Because Hoid did throw that out there - either as a real threat, or just as a taunt ('"hey, don't forget that time I kicked your ass"). Perfectly in character for the latter, but interesting to consider that it may not be completely empty (or that neither of them know for sure, at least as of the time it was given).

Edited August 3, 2023 by robardin

[+robardin he/him]

Ooh, and doing a little digging in the WoB Arcanum archive, I found this:

Quote

Questioner

Hoid's ability to hurt Kelsier, is that due to his perceptions and beliefs or those of an external entity?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to be a bit of both but more his perceptions and beliefs. This is how a lot of things work in the Cosmere, particularly if you're where they were.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Which sort of implies that if Hoid were to consider Kelsier "still in that gray area between dead and alive that I can fight with him" as he was at the Well, that could well be enough.(Unless part of that, consciously or unconsciously on Hoid's part, was the encounter being in Shadesmar.)

And this, where Brandon calls Hoid's conclusion as to why he could pound on Kelsier there and then was "as educated a guess as possible", more or less (without actually giving the Writer's Nod)

Quote

tututitlookslikerain

and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people

This point still confuses me. He quite handily puts Kelsier on his rear in The Well.

So he can harm someone if he's provoked? Or is it because he knows that regardless of what he does to Kelsier it won't actually harm him?

And a lot of "harm" is in the mind. Even without a corporeal body, it would still register as pain, thus harm?

And wouldn't it still be considered physical harm, if Hoid was there physically? Applying physical harm?

Brandon Sanderson

If you re-read that scene, Hoid himself is shocked he's able to do what he does there. Let's just say he himself doesn't quite understand the issue as much as he once assumed.

ice_royale

Can we assume he cannot harm a LIVING being, but Kelsier is at that point not a living being?

Brandon Sanderson

This is the conclusion Hoid came to, so it's a pretty solid assumption.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020)

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by robardin

[Quantus he/him]

From the things we know about Hoids limit, his ability to eat lab-grown meat (or something he thinks is lab-grow), and his punching Kelsier that time.  I think he is prevented from doing Physical Harm, but is entirely allowed to do Cognitive Harm (Lies, emotional allomancy, biting storytelling, etc. etc).   

Next Experiment is to see if he can punch a Spren in the CR, and if he can punch a Radiant that has physicals travelled to the CR.  

Then we can start playing in the real Nuance, like how much Forgery based Change can he force on a person before it's considered Harm?  Taken further, can he Soulcast a person, since it's a Cognitive "conversation" instead of a Physical Attack?

[+robardin he/him]

7 minutes ago, Quantus said:

From the things we know about Hoids limit, his ability to eat lab-grown meat (or something he thinks is lab-grow), and his punching Kelsier that time.  I think he is prevented from doing Physical Harm, but is entirely allowed to do Cognitive Harm (Lies, emotional allomancy, biting storytelling, etc. etc).   

Next Experiment is to see if he can punch a Spren in the CR, and if he can punch a Radiant that has physicals travelled to the CR.  

Then we can start playing in the real Nuance, like how much Forgery based Change can he force on a person before it's considered Harm?  Taken further, can he Soulcast a person, since it's a Cognitive "conversation" instead of a Physical Attack?

Right, but see, since he DID punch Kelsier at the Well, all it could take for him to consider Kelsier still an "allowable target" is to consider Kelsier "fundamentally just as not-alive as he was then (nothing has changed, so what if he's using a hemalurgic spike to hold some kind of form on Scadrial, that's a function of the spike and not of him)".

It's not clear to me that Kelsier being corporeal on Scadrial the way he is (which is less "present" than Vasher is) would change that, but I suppose it very well could... Even as it would (?) prevent him from targeting Vasher, a Fused, a Herald, etc.

Alternatively if being in the CR vs. planetside IS important to him, then why couldn't he fight a Fused on Braize that hadn't been "called" to Roshar via the Everstorm?

Edited August 3, 2023 by robardin

[Firesong she/her]

We don't really understand how there here was when he talked to Kaladin. It isn't entirely clear yet, so we don't know how safe it is to be there. Even being there the way he was was dangerous for him. 

(also, my goodness wiki trolls are so annoying, just coming in randomly without an account and deleting half a page. They really need to get a life, lol. Just undid some trolling on the Kaladin page)

[Quantus he/him]

17 minutes ago, robardin said:

Right, but see, since he DID punch Kelsier at the Well, all it could take for him to consider Kelsier still an "allowable target" is to consider Kelsier "fundamentally just as not-alive as he was then (nothing has changed, so what if he's using a hemalurgic spike to hold some kind of form on Scadrial, that's a function of the spike and not of him)".

It's not clear to me that Kelsier being corporeal on Scadrial the way he is (which is less "present" than Vasher is) would change that, but I suppose it very well could... Even as it would (?) prevent him from targeting Vasher, a Fused, a Herald, etc.

If I understand you, I agree that it now a scientific question and not a philosophic one: we need experimental Data.  If, for example, its the Physical Harm that is the key, then he might be able to punch an Honorspren living in Lasting Integrity, but not a Bonded spren that has been pulled to the Physical World.  And depending on what Dawnshard he held, that could be a reasonable line. Or it could be way off.  

17 minutes ago, robardin said:

Alternatively if being in the CR vs. planetside IS important to him, then why couldn't he fight a Fused on Braize that hadn't been "called" to Roshar via the Everstorm?

When did that happen?  I dont recall any scenes on Braize.  

[+robardin he/him]

5 minutes ago, Firesong said:

We don't really understand how there here was when he talked to Kaladin. It isn't entirely clear yet, so we don't know how safe it is to be there. Even being there the way he was was dangerous for him. 

(also, my goodness wiki trolls are so annoying, just coming in randomly without an account and deleting half a page. They really need to get a life, lol. Just undid some trolling on the Kaladin page)

Wh...what? Who would bother to "troll" the Coppermind Cosmere Wiki? WOW!

[Firesong she/her]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

Wh...what? Who would bother to "troll" the Coppermind Cosmere Wiki? WOW!

Trust me, it happens from time to time (not as much as spam bots on the forums tho). I don't know why. 

[+robardin he/him]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

"Alternatively if being in the CR vs. planetside IS important to him, then why couldn't he fight a Fused on Braize that hadn't been "called" to Roshar via the Everstorm?"

When did that happen?  I dont recall any scenes on Braize.  

No, we haven't seen anything like that. I was just pondering the what-if scenario.

Like, Brandon referred to Hoid going all HAM on poor Kelsier at the Well as stemming from him having a LOT of "pent-up aggression" from his living with his non-aggression condition for so long. So maybe if Hoid had been hungering for a little time in a boxing ring or whatever, he could have hopped over to Braize and challenged Lezian the Pursuer for a match (well, not any more).

Of coure that would have exposed him to Odium's awareness, which he was eager to avoid on Roshar until he gained a protection clause via Dalinar, so presumably that was a good reason to avoid Braize as well.

[Quantus he/him]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

No, we haven't seen anything like that. I was just pondering the what-if scenario.

Like, Brandon referred to Hoid going all HAM on poor Kelsier at the Well as stemming from him having a LOT of "pent-up aggression" from his living with his non-aggression condition for so long. So maybe if Hoid had been hungering for a little time in a boxing ring or whatever, he could have hopped over to Braize and challenged Lezian the Pursuer for a match (well, not any more).

Of coure that would have exposed him to Odium's awareness, which he was eager to avoid on Roshar until he gained a protection clause via Dalinar, so presumably that was a good reason to avoid Braize as well.

That and Travel to and from Braize is restricted at best (it's essentially a prison planet) so he might be warry of getting stuck there.  

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

I think the Hoid Line lies in whether the thing he's hurting is alive, and not the thing inhabiting it. The way I think of it, He could hurt the soul of a Fused in the Cognitive Realm, but not a Fused who has taken over the body of a Singer, because that body, even if the Fused inhabiting it is technically dead, is still alive. Whether he could hurt Kelsier in his Hemalurgically-stapled-into-the-PR form is entirely dependent on whether that body is alive. And considering that, as far as we know, he's been spiked into a Mistwraith that ate his bones, I think Hoid would be unable to harm him, so long as the Mistwraith is alive and not just a corpse that gets reanimated whenever he enters it. That said, if he were to leave the body and return to the CR, or find a way to manifest into the PR directly like a True Spren, Hoid could again harm him. However, if he gained a true, living physical form, like if Ishar pulled him over and formed a body for him, he may once again become immune. That's a bit dubious, however, since the body Ishar could create may or may not count as the same as lab-grown meat, and thus harm-able.

For Spren, in both the CR or PR, I think it depends on his perception. He can view them as just as alive as they always were in either Realm and thus be unable to hurt them, or see them as simply Sapient Investiture, and thus never alive in the first place, and be able to hurt them. I think he should be able to hurt Spren, but it comes down to his perception and Intent stopping him if he thinks he can't.

Returned are the confusing ones for me. It all depends on if the body counts as alive. Do Returned need to eat and drink? Do they excrete waste after they've eaten? Their body died, but it gets healed and the soul (or an Investiture copy of it) is reattached. This might be another one that's subject to his perception specifically (whether as "previously dead but fully alive again and thus untouchable", or as "they died and this is just a body sustained by the Investiture copy of a soul that's slapped on it and thus harm-able"), though I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being totally immune/totally susceptible and the effect of perception is minimal.

[alder24]

On 3.08.2023 at 3:35 PM, robardin said:

Hoid/Wit's message to Kelsier at the end of RoW, passed via Shallan to Mraize and confirmed as received by him in a WoB, told him to "mind your own planet" and "don't make me come over there and slap you around again":

So do you think that was just bluster, or is it something Hoid could actually do?

Of course, Hoid is referring to his throwdown with Kelsier at the Well of Ascension in Mistborn: Secret History, when he was on his way to taking the lerasium bead hundreds of years earlier. At the time, Hoid was surprised - and somewhat pleased - to find that Kelsier being dead "means I can hurt you", because he was a Cognitive Shadow.

Does that loophole in whatever prevents Hoid from doing violence to living things (including eating meat) carry over to Spiked Kelsier Physically On Scadrial? I mean, he's still not "alive" - otherwise he could probably do things like burn Allomantic metals or travel off-world.

But Kelsier is physically on Scadrial (even if he can't leave) when we see him in TLM: he travels over the ocean physically (not through CR), he sits in a chair with his shoes reflecting light as shadows fall on his face when offering GB membership to Marasi, and so on. (He wasn't yet at the end of MB:SH when he appears to Spook only after he dons a hemalurgic earring.)

So was Hoid's ability to "slap Kelsier around" at the Well due to being in the CR, or just Kelsier "being dead/having died"? Because if Hoid really can still physically attack Kelsier on Scadrial because "he's dead", shouldn't that also apply to say, the Heralds and the Fused?

Maybe the Heralds and Fused have never "really" died (debateable with the Fused, whose original bodies are long gone and they are reborn in the vessels of "willing" singers/listeners), but what about a Returned like Vasher?

I think it's about physically feeling pain/harm.

Kelsier now  has a body, he can feel pain. I don't think Hoid can slap him again because of that. Hoid was about to do that in SH because he was without a body, he shouldn't feel pain at all.

So I think Hoid can't physically hurt anyone that has a body, but those already dead without a body he can. He can wait for people in CR to die and slap them in their faces for fun but nothing more. He can't hurt Fused or Heralds or Returned. Maybe he can hurt Shades but that's a bit risky for him as they can hurt him back.

Spren are different, they never had bodies, but they can still feel pain. They can still be hurt. Natum in RoW was wounded by physical attacks, he had wounds and his glow was diminished. I don't think Hoid can slap them.

SH ch 2.1:

Quote

“This is a lesson,” Drifter said, though it was difficult to hear the words through the pain. “But not the one you might think it is. You don’t have a body, and I don’t have the inclination to actually injure your soul. That pain is caused by your mind; it’s thinking about what should be happening to you, and responding.” He hesitated. “I’ll refrain from making you choke on a chunk of your own flesh.”

 

But could Hoid remove Kel's spike and slap his CS? Maybe. Technically he wouldn't cause any harm to Kelsier, only to the body (which is most likely a Mistwraith's body), but this might still stop him from removing a spike.

23 hours ago, robardin said:

Alternatively if being in the CR vs. planetside IS important to him, then why couldn't he fight a Fused on Braize that hadn't been "called" to Roshar via the Everstorm?

Why would he fight Fused? He was threatened by Odium, not Fused.