coolsnow7 Posted July 31, 2023 Posted July 31, 2023 I’ve been sitting on this one for about 2 years; the recent pre-read chapter from Jasnah pushed me over the edge. Let’s jump into the “evidence” such as it is: * The pattern whereby Odium kills/splinters a shard by teaming up with another shard has been well-established; we’ve just been ignoring the most available teammate because Cultivation is a “good guy”. * “We killed you” enough said. * It would fit as part of an overall goal of selecting new bearers for each of the 3 shards, including potentially Lift to replace herself. She was clearly instrumental in Taravangian killing Rayse, and by the same token would be grooming Dalinar as a successor to Honor. * Why is Hoid no longer on speaking terms with Cultivation? (Yes I know he wasn’t explicit about it - come on.) This is a pretty good reason. This is quite substantive - if Cultivation is actually trying to preserve Roshar, this should be a no-brainer to help out on - yet Hoid doesn’t even try. * Hoid’s parable of the people pushing a boulder, where he says “the person who just gives it a nudge is the most dangerous” - Cultivation is that person, and yup that would fit. * From a meta-plot, Sanderson point of view it just makes too much sense. Probably the biggest source of pushback I’m going to get is the idea that Cultivation has no motive to do this. Even given as little as we know about Cultivation, frankly that’s nonsense: Odium’s propaganda about how Honor represents calcification and stagnation would definitely ring true to the shard of growth and progression. From her point of view, oaths, commitments, and moral principles should change in response to circumstances - not be ironclad for eternity. Moreover I urge you all to stop thinking of Cultivation as a “good guy”. None - literally none - of the shards that we’ve met so far have been close to unambiguously good. Preservation was last seen regretting the death of the Lord Ruler because of just how stable his kingdom was. Cultivation is definitely going to have a dark side just like the rest of them, and my money is that this will be it. Where does that leave us? I’m not sure. We still don’t know anything that will let us parse Cultivation’s goals. But I’m pretty confident that when we get around to finding out how Honor died, she’ll turn out to have been a participant. 3
alder24 Posted July 31, 2023 Posted July 31, 2023 7 hours ago, coolsnow7 said: I’ve been sitting on this one for about 2 years; the recent pre-read chapter from Jasnah pushed me over the edge. Let’s jump into the “evidence” such as it is: * The pattern whereby Odium kills/splinters a shard by teaming up with another shard has been well-established; we’ve just been ignoring the most available teammate because Cultivation is a “good guy”. * “We killed you” enough said. * It would fit as part of an overall goal of selecting new bearers for each of the 3 shards, including potentially Lift to replace herself. She was clearly instrumental in Taravangian killing Rayse, and by the same token would be grooming Dalinar as a successor to Honor. * Why is Hoid no longer on speaking terms with Cultivation? (Yes I know he wasn’t explicit about it - come on.) This is a pretty good reason. This is quite substantive - if Cultivation is actually trying to preserve Roshar, this should be a no-brainer to help out on - yet Hoid doesn’t even try. * Hoid’s parable of the people pushing a boulder, where he says “the person who just gives it a nudge is the most dangerous” - Cultivation is that person, and yup that would fit. * From a meta-plot, Sanderson point of view it just makes too much sense. Probably the biggest source of pushback I’m going to get is the idea that Cultivation has no motive to do this. Even given as little as we know about Cultivation, frankly that’s nonsense: Odium’s propaganda about how Honor represents calcification and stagnation would definitely ring true to the shard of growth and progression. From her point of view, oaths, commitments, and moral principles should change in response to circumstances - not be ironclad for eternity. Moreover I urge you all to stop thinking of Cultivation as a “good guy”. None - literally none - of the shards that we’ve met so far have been close to unambiguously good. Preservation was last seen regretting the death of the Lord Ruler because of just how stable his kingdom was. Cultivation is definitely going to have a dark side just like the rest of them, and my money is that this will be it. Where does that leave us? I’m not sure. We still don’t know anything that will let us parse Cultivation’s goals. But I’m pretty confident that when we get around to finding out how Honor died, she’ll turn out to have been a participant. I find it difficult to believe. Koravellium Avast and Tanavest were lovers, she still feels for him. She still fights against Odium and she did help Honor against Odium (we have this confirmed). Not to mention most Shard's Vessels doesn't like Hoid and don't speak with him - Edgli doesn't like him, Bavadin obviously hates him, Mistborn Spoilers: Spoiler Even Leras doesn't trust him. Cultivation being on non speaking terms with him isn't anything new to us compared to other Vessels. It seems that it is her that doesn't like him, and they never got along WoR ch 55: Quote “That’s right,” Adolin said with a nod. “Stick to women your own age.” Wit grinned. “Well, that might be a little harder. I think there’s only one of those around these parts, and she and I never did get along.” Spoiler StormAtlas (paraphrased) Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes. Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013) Spoiler Seonid If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium? Brandon Sanderson She did. Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015) Spoiler Gavin-son-son-Odegard How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium? Brandon Sanderson So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler WeiryWriter What are Cultivation's feelings with regards to the Stormfather? Brandon Sanderson Cultivation's feelings... Cultivation is, *long pause* I just have to decide how I can say things that are not spoilers. Cultivation-- The Stormfather reminds her of certain things about someone else she knew, and she feels the same way about the Stormfather in some ways as this person that she knew. JordanCon 2014 (April 11, 2014) Spoiler Sam Script Please tell me the name of the holder of Cultivation Brandon Sanderson Hoid calls her Slammer... but that isn't her real name. Footnote: The map and arrow at the bottom of the image were drawn by the questioner and do not relate to the question. General Signed Books 2016 (Jan. 1, 2016)
Pruning the Blackthorn he/him Posted July 31, 2023 Posted July 31, 2023 Maybe its a gender-swapping of that horrible trope of guys killing the women they love "for their own good." (Jon Snow at the end of Game of Throne, Wolverine in X-Men: The Last Stand.) Tanavast is rambling crazy stuff, and Koravellium Avast is like "I love you, but--" *stab*
Firesong she/her Posted July 31, 2023 Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rhyen said: Maybe its a gender-swapping of that horrible trope of guys killing the women they love "for their own good." (Jon Snow at the end of Game of Throne, Wolverine in X-Men: The Last Stand.) Tanavast is rambling crazy stuff, and Koravellium Avast is like "I love you, but--" *stab* While I would agree in part, due to this Quote I remember at the end Honor was more obsessed with oaths. There were times when the oath itself was more important than the meaning behind it. But he was not a passionless monster. He loved humankind. He died defending you But I have to bring up the WoB mentioned before, where Brandon confirmed Cultivation fought alongside Honor. What it might be, is that she did that, but in the end finished him off as he was going mad like Leras, so she was the one that did the final blow after the Recreance. Edited August 1, 2023 by Firesong 1
bmcclure7 Posted July 31, 2023 Posted July 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Rhyen said: Maybe its a gender-swapping of that horrible trope of guys killing the women they love "for their own good." (Jon Snow at the end of Game of Throne, Wolverine in X-Men: The Last Stand.) Tanavast is rambling crazy stuff, and Koravellium Avast is like "I love you, but--" *stab* So buffy
Pruning the Blackthorn he/him Posted August 1, 2023 Posted August 1, 2023 3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: So buffy Oh yeah, I forgot about that example.
coolsnow7 Posted August 1, 2023 Author Posted August 1, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, alder24 said: I find it difficult to believe. Koravellium Avast and Tanavest were lovers, she still feels for him. She still fights against Odium and she did help Honor against Odium (we have this confirmed). Not to mention most Shard's Vessels doesn't like Hoid and don't speak with him - Edgli doesn't like him, Bavadin obviously hates him, Mistborn Spoilers: Reveal hidden contents Even Leras doesn't trust him. Cultivation being on non speaking terms with him isn't anything new to us compared to other Vessels. It seems that it is her that doesn't like him, and they never got along WoR ch 55: Reveal hidden contents StormAtlas (paraphrased) Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes. Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013) Reveal hidden contents Seonid If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium? Brandon Sanderson She did. Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015) Reveal hidden contents Gavin-son-son-Odegard How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium? Brandon Sanderson So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Reveal hidden contents WeiryWriter What are Cultivation's feelings with regards to the Stormfather? Brandon Sanderson Cultivation's feelings... Cultivation is, *long pause* I just have to decide how I can say things that are not spoilers. Cultivation-- The Stormfather reminds her of certain things about someone else she knew, and she feels the same way about the Stormfather in some ways as this person that she knew. JordanCon 2014 (April 11, 2014) Reveal hidden contents Sam Script Please tell me the name of the holder of Cultivation Brandon Sanderson Hoid calls her Slammer... but that isn't her real name. Footnote: The map and arrow at the bottom of the image were drawn by the questioner and do not relate to the question. General Signed Books 2016 (Jan. 1, 2016) I don’t really have the patience to address all of this. I’ll just note that literally nothing you cited is even slightly inconsistent with my theory. Figuring that out is left as an exercise for the reader. Edited August 1, 2023 by coolsnow7
alder24 Posted August 1, 2023 Posted August 1, 2023 4 hours ago, coolsnow7 said: I don’t really have the patience to address all of this. I’ll just note that literally nothing you cited is even slightly inconsistent with my theory. Figuring that out is left as an exercise for the reader. That's a shame. I was hoping for more. Don't take those WoBs and the quote as a proof contradicting your theory, take them as arguments supporting my skepticism about your theory. 1
olivemyheart Posted August 5, 2023 Posted August 5, 2023 I don't have much to add but I'm surprised to hear that people view Cultivation as "a good guy." I've always seen her as completely morally neutral. She wants things to grow and change, she doesn't care whether the end result is good or bad. Regardless, nice theory! I hadn't thought about it before but I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be true.
drunkenbotanist Posted August 5, 2023 Posted August 5, 2023 If honor was worried he'd be responsible for the death of humanity, then cultivation could have helped kill him under his own wishes to help humanity grow
Stigmadiabolicum Posted June 26, 2024 Posted June 26, 2024 FirstSelector "Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got Honor, to know how to fight back?" Brandon Sanderson "Heheheheh. I would say yes." I thought I'd read all the WoBs but just found this one id never seen. So this almost implicitly confirms odium did do it, and now she knows how to splinter a shard. However, that laugh haha, definitely could mean she was the one that did the deed, so he's laughing because she was absolutely close when he died. Like others have said, I don't think any shard is flat out benevolent, but it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. She might love tanavast, but be tired of his intent clashing with hers, and assisted in taking him out, but still also opposes odium. Personally I don't think she'd help recover Dalinar if she wasn't anti odium, her interaction with todium could be seen either way, he's way too cocky for a fresh shard & she's been one for millenia and immediately knows he's got ulterior motives but as per usual is going for the long con..or he actually did trick her and she thinks he'll be chill, but I just can't see that. She got her revenge against rayse, and is planting the seeds for Dalinar and lift to take up the other two shards. I just don't think we'll get the full story on her till the back 5, maybe a few bits in the next one
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