Bondsmith Spren and Mythology

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

So, in thinking about the Bondsmiths and their spren, and thinking about how Dalinar bonded with the Stormfather I got to thinking:

 

There are lots of theories that there are only three bonsmiths.  And that their spren are special.

 

So Start with Stormfather = Zeus = Lightning Bolt / The Heavens as a symbol.

 

Then go (this is where I started, actually) to Cusicesh = Posiedon = The Oceans

 

And to The Nightwatcher = Hades = The underworld

 

And, in Greek / Roman mythology, those three are the "big three"

 

 

Admittedly, the Nightwatcher is the most shaky in terms of alignment, but I can do enough mental gymnastics to see how maybe going and asking Hades for a Boon would get you a curse as well....

 

So, now is when you all come in and tell me that there is already WoB and to RAFO.

[skaa]

Given that "to dine with the Nightwatcher" is an ancient Rosharian euphemism for death, I think you're spot on. A thousand upvotes to you, sir!

[Baine]

Seconded. Awesome name, by the way!

[hoser]

I love it.  I can definitely see it.  Upvotes!

 

I've been reading the surgebinding chart as the top 5 orders (with male Heralds) being more associated with Honor and the bottom 5 orders (with female Heralds) more associated with Cultivation.  Since the Nightwatcher seems tightly linked to Cultivation, I've thought that the Nightwatcher would not be a bondsmith spren.  However, this alternative formulation explains the three bondsmiths wonderfully. 

[Swimmingly]

That would suggest that there was a forerunner religion that merged with Vorinism, as well - except that the Stormfather didn't exist until Honor was left behind, unless he simply gained power and identity when Honor was splintered, having existed as the idea of a god beforehond. By the way that some cultures worship individual Heralds, I wonder if this is a regression to or descendant of the worship of the Three - Jezrien merging with the Stormfather, for example, in order to pay lip service to Vorinism while still honoring older traditions.

[Jaxx_The_Edgedancer]

It makes more sense to me that instead of the three spren that the three Bondsmiths are bonded with mimicking Greek mythology that they are three powerful and unique spren, each being a Sliver of a Shard that has an influence on Roshar, meaning that there would be:

A spren from Honor: This would be the Stormfather. This, of course, is already confirmed in the book.

A spren from Cultivation: My best guess for a powerful unique spren that's a Sliver of Cultivation would be the Nightwatcher. This theory is supported by how just as Syl refers to the Stormfather as her father, and the Stormfather refers to Syl as his daughter, Wyndle (The spren Lift is bonded to) refers to the Nightwatcher as his mother.

A spren from Odium: Since the spren didn't start to bond with men until after the desolation a began and the ten heralds formed the oathpact (which is when I presume that Odium entered the area of Greater Roshar, and began to influence Roshar), it is possible that there is a Sliver of Odium in the form of a powerful spren that can bond with people. But like other Odium Sliver spren (storm spren) I would presume that this powerful Sliver of Odium would be just as hostile to people as Odium is. This theory seems weak, however, as the Knights Radiant were an order dedicated to fighting the Voidbringers, and it is though that the Odium is responsible or somehow connected to the Voidbringers.

Of the three theories, the last is the least likely, due to the contradicting ideas pertaining to Odium and the Knights Radiant. Despite this, I have no better ideas. Anybody else have any suggestions?

[Moogle]

I don't understand where this theory is coming from. Cucicesh, the Stormfather, and Nightwatcher are all different types of spren. KR bond one type of spren, and each Order's spren is made of a percent of Honor and a percent of Cultivation. This percent should not vary amongst spren in the orders. If the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather are of differing Shards (which everyone agrees, I think), then they can't possibly both be the spren for the Bondsmiths. The evidence points towards all Bondsmiths sharing the Stormfather. This would also explain why there were so few of them.
 

Question
Does each specific order have their own spren that they would bond?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes. Each order has a spren that is distinctive. All Windrunners come from wind— from honorspren.

[skaa]

@Moogle: You make a good argument, but I personally like the original post, not as a theory, but rather just a cool connection discovered by Horatio between the three known "mega-spren" and the major Olympian gods. As some of you know, I'm fond of looking for things that influenced Brandon's fantasy concepts. Some of them came from Greek philosophy and metaphysics (e.g. the Elements, the Realms) so I wouldn't be surprised if Greek mythology was also an influence.

Edited July 23, 2014 by skaa

[jefftucker0525]

Yes, every Order gains their powers from one type of spren, but it has been pointed out on several occasions about how Bondsmiths are different from all the other Orders i.e. no Shardblade, only 3 members, and powers that no one can really understand (don't have the exact quote, or even anything close to it, but the one Bondsmith decided to go into his tent on on the next day ended the war/battle). It would make sense that a God-spren is a classification of spren available to a Nahel bond, and we see this in Dalinars bondind of the Stormfather. Its not like their are3 Stromfathers out there, only the one, so sense we have proof that their can be atleast 3 Bondsmiths at one time it satnds to reason that atleast 2 more God-spren are around somewhere. Also, just because by Bonding a God-spren you become a Bondsmith doesn't mean that all Bondsmiths have the exact same powers, unlike other Oders, because they have been implied to be a closely guarded Order, it may be that they were just lumped togother as Bondsmiths due to the general type of Spren they bonded or due to the fact that their powers were similar, or even, lacking an order they fit into, they were kind of forced into the tenth Order to match the whole central ten theme on Roshar, though this last one seems very unlikely to me.
 

 

 

This is in response to Moogles post, I can never quote things on this site for some reason.

Edited July 23, 2014 by jefftucker0525

[hoser]

This is in response to Moogles post, I can never quote things on this site for some reason.

The quote button under the downvote button at the bottom of each post doesn't work?

[Moogle]

It would make sense that a God-spren is a classification of spren available to a Nahel bond

 

But it doesn't. "God-spren" is a category that includes a huge amount of spren. Orders bond one type of spren. Radiant Orders don't bond categories of spren like "emotionspren" or "natural-force-spren", they bond things like liespren or honorspren, spren that are, as Syl puts it, "essentially the same individual".

 

The Stormfather and the Nightwatcher are in no way the same. We know that all spren can in theory bond, but that doesn't mean bonding the Nightwatcher turns you into a Bondsmith. Only the Stormfather does.

 

Yes, every Order gains their powers from one type of spren, but it has been pointed out on several occasions about how Bondsmiths are different from all the other Orders i.e. no Shardblade, only 3 members, and powers that no one can really understand (don't have the exact quote, or even anything close to it, but the one Bondsmith decided to go into his tent on on the next day ended the war/battle).

 

This is all explained by the idea that they bond the Stormfather. Nothing says that one spren can't bond multiple humans. We know that one human can bond multiple spren, after all.

 

The Shardblade issue is specific to Dalinar, nothing we've heard indicates that previous Bondsmiths couldn't summon the Stormfather as a Blade.

 

Also, all the Orders have special powers: Dalinar gets his strategy (possibly?), Kaladin gets fighting skill, and Lightweavers get the ability to take Memories. Dalinar probably just has the ability to get some sort of vision in his dreams, much like Renarin has.

 

 

Also, just because by Bonding a God-spren you become a Bondsmith doesn't mean that all Bondsmiths have the exact same powers, unlike other Oders, because they have been implied to be a closely guarded Order, it may be that they were just lumped togother as Bondsmiths due to the general type of Spren they bonded or due to the fact that their powers were similar, or even, lacking an order they fit into, they were kind of forced into the tenth Order to match the whole central ten theme on Roshar, though this last one seems very unlikely to me.

 

We know from the Radiant chart that all Bondsmiths have Tension and Adhesion, and we know they're probably all going to get heliodor colored eyes. Nothing we have seen or read indicates anything else. If you bond other godspren, like the Nightwatcher or Cucicesh, I agree that you'd get different powers, but I don't think anyone would call you a Bondsmith, and I don't think you would get Tension or Adhesion.

[Savanorn]

I'm just throwing this out here, but do we know why the Knights Radiant only bond the ten types of Spren? Like, are they the only ones that can or do bond? I don't recall the relevant WoB, if there is one. 

 

Just playing around with Voidbinding/Surgebinding/otherbinding thoughts...

 

While I'm here Moogle, do we know the Shard thing is exclusive to Dalinar? I would think it would be more logical to assume it went the other way, that Bondsmiths didn't have blades in general and that Dal is representative of that...especially if in the past the Stormfather was bonded by many.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Savanorn

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

So, yeah, the whole Bondsmith part is less interesting to me than the connection between Greek/Roman mythology and those three unique spren.

 

@Moogle, I can see why you would classify those three as different types of spren, I keep wondering if "SuperSpren" is a category all it's own.  As in "significantly more investiture than a regular spren" type super.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I know Brandon said that it would be possible for one person to bond 2 spren, but are there any WoB about whether or not multiple people could bond the same spren?

I think it would make just as much sense for all the Bondsmiths to bond the Stormfather. It would explain why expanding beyond a few members was looked at as almost treasonous. Syl said Kaladin is taking something from her to get his powers, so if a few dozen or hundred Knights were bonded to Stormfather it might change him too much.

It also fits with why he won't be a shardblade for Dalinar. If he was being a blade for one of his Bondsmiths that might take him away from the others for that time.

[jefftucker0525]

How many spren are classified under God-spren? As far as I knew that was a term just on this site and was used to classify the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and Cusicesh. Also im not saying each Bondsmith gets different Surges just different powers, as in how each Order gets "something of their own" and re-reading what I said I see that's not very clear, sorry about that. I guess what I am trying to say is that its possible that each Bondsmith has the same Surges, but specializes in something else. Maybe a Bondsmith bonded to the Stormfather can strengthen bonds while one bonded to the Nightwatcher can break them. At the same time I could be completely wrong and all Bondsmiths may in fact be Bonded to the Stormfather.

[Savanorn]

How many spren are classified under God-spren? As far as I knew that was a term just on this site and was used to classify the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and Cusicesh. Also im not saying each Bondsmith gets different Surges just different powers, as in how each Order gets "something of their own" and re-reading what I said I see that's not very clear, sorry about that. I guess what I am trying to say is that its possible that each Bondsmith has the same Surges, but specializes in something else. Maybe a Bondsmith bonded to the Stormfather can strengthen bonds while one bonded to the Nightwatcher can break them. At the same time I could be completely wrong and all Bondsmiths may in fact be Bonded to the Stormfather.

Well, the problem with that logic is that we know that a Radiant's surges come from their spren. It's the reason Kaladin is a Windrunner, because he bonded Syl. 

 

Assuming this, to bond the Stormfather would be VERY different from bonding the Nightwatcher, because Stormdaddy is what remains of Honour and the Nightwatcher either is, or is very heavily related to, Cultivation. 

[DocHoliday]

I  originally really liked the idea of the 3 Super Spren being the the spren for the 3 Bondsmiths.  I now disagree intensely with it.

 

Mainly because of the Recreance.

 

Syl rapidly degenerated to Windspren intelligence level during Kaladin's indiscretion. 

 

What woul happen if a Bondsmith intentionally forsook his oaths? 

Logically we should see a degeneration of their individuality as seen in Syl.

 

So if the super spren were the Bondsmiths Nahel, why is it that the Stormfather and Nightwatcher still retain their adult to reason and communicate?

[jefftucker0525]

I think this is because Syl digresses to her base state her base state, a windspren, but the Stromfather and the Nightwatcher both have a base state so high end that its not much of a loss, intelligence wise. im sure they gain something from the bond that they lose when they lose the Bond, but all Spren come from peoples cognitive definitions of them, an idea that they represent. The Stormfather is peoples representation of Honor so he is automatically going to have a higher level, because peoples image of him is high, just as the Nightwatcher is (atleast I believe) peoples image of Cultivation.

 

 

EDIT: and Im sure they both are somehow Invested by Honor/Cultivation in some way that helps too.

Edited August 19, 2014 by jefftucker0525

[hoser]

And Syl's cognitive abilities are only dependant on the bond in the physical realm.  She was apparently fine when she was in the cognitive.  It isn't clear to me that the Stormfather isn't always in the cognitive realm also.  Pattern was apparently fine in the cognitive realm when Shallan regressed in her Radiant development. 

[Bobby]

I  originally really liked the idea of the 3 Super Spren being the the spren for the 3 Bondsmiths.  I now disagree intensely with it.

 

Mainly because of the Recreance.

 

Syl rapidly degenerated to Windspren intelligence level during Kaladin's indiscretion. 

 

What woul happen if a Bondsmith intentionally forsook his oaths? 

Logically we should see a degeneration of their individuality as seen in Syl.

 

So if the super spren were the Bondsmiths Nahel, why is it that the Stormfather and Nightwatcher still retain their adult to reason and communicate?

 

 

I don't know why or how but according to Pattern stormfather is one of the few spren that was bonded at the time of the recreance that survived in tact

 

"Not just one people," Pattern said, solemn "Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. you call it the Recreance."

 

now you could say that the "very few survivors" refers to the unbonded spren of the mostly bonded populations, but pattern said the majority not nearly all, so i think Stormfather and "some" others is more likely to be the bonded spren who were somehow strong enough to survive or perhaps lucky enough to survive and in surviving gained the strength to become the pseudo gods they are now

[dyring]

More likely those who wouldent let themselves be used as a shardblade survived.

 

The stormfather himself sais so when speaking with Dalinar in the end. That he wont let Dalinar use him as a shardblade so that he might be slain.

 

That Syl came close to death/destruction without being used as a shardblade is odd imho. Something must still be missing to make it fit together.

[kaellok]

More likely those who wouldent let themselves be used as a shardblade survived.

 

The stormfather himself sais so when speaking with Dalinar in the end. That he wont let Dalinar use him as a shardblade so that he might be slain.

 

That Syl came close to death/destruction without being used as a shardblade is odd imho. Something must still be missing to make it fit together.

The spren died because the Oath died.  (Pardon the lack of direct quote, as my book is at home and I'm at work) Syl said basically "I was only as dead as your oath."  It had nothing to do with her being a Blade, everything to do with the Bond.  So, the Stormfather wouldn't be protected simply by never becoming a Blade; my take is that his refusal is because he has a greater freedom than Syl.  We've seen that Syl is limited in her freedom, in where she can go and in her intelligence, based entirely upon the bond to Kaladin.  The Stormfather is not limited in that way.  Presumably, though, if he were acting as a Shardblade, he couldn't also be Riding the Storm or any of the other things he does for fun.  Or that are expected/required of him.

[hoser]

More ...

 

That Syl came close to death/destruction without being used as a shardblade is odd imho. Something must still be missing to make it fit together.

I think the extra piece in Syl's case is that she pushed stormlight to Kaladin when the bond was too weak.  She was OK, but cognitively weaker and he couldn't draw stormlight when she wasn't right with him.  When he fell, she forced stormlight to him and then went into a worse state.

[Bort]

It is my belief that this is the first time the Stormfather has been bonded, and that the caveat about not being a sword for Dalinar is simply ego. Well, ego and the memory of being God.

 

There are more than three Godspren. Stormfather, Nightmother, Cusicesh, sure, but what about the Spren that Taravangian has been tracking? There were at least another two there, although I think they probably have more to do with Odium than either Honour or Cultivation. Moloch, i think one is, but I definitely don't remember the name of the other.

[taveren]

could be that the stormfather could just bond 3 people at the same time so it would still be one type of spren

 

maybe the bondsmiths didn't abandon their oath so the stormfather wouldn't be killed they could just commit suicide

 

what ever the reason the others had to break their oaths wouldn't be worth killing the stormfather

 

personaly i think that it is because the bonds caused other terrible things to happen between desolations like all the monsters they had to fight in dalinar's visions that aren't around anymore