Bondsmith Spren and Mythology

[natc]

Part of that technological advancement goes towards inventing better ways to kill large numbers of people quickly and generally wrecking things with high efficiency, but you do have a point.

[taveren]

speaking of technology should roshar have better tech after 4500 years its not like they started from scratch after the last desolation and needed to discover how to make a wheel again

[Turos]

That aside, you guys are too smart for me, so I admit I skipped after most of the first page. Something did stand out to me, though, and I'm sorry if this has been addressed, but whenever people mention spren bonding to their human symbiant, it is making an idea thing, a bond. Why is a bondsmith called a bondsmith? Are there roles attributed to each order? Were bondsmith so few because of their role? Was their role, perhaps, smithing bonds, calling new radiants forth from humans and spren(for in my opinion that is what a knight radiant is, the two working together), aka to "unite them," as urged by Honor?

 

Also, back to Brightlord Spifflewicket's original topic, what do you think of Moelach?

Edited January 9, 2015 by Turos Stoneward

[Arondell]

Part of that technological advancement goes towards inventing better ways to kill large numbers of people quickly and generally wrecking things with high efficiency, but you do have a point.

 

And a lot of that advancement goes towards finding better ways to heal, build, explore, and entertain.  If your bound and determined to see only the darkness in us the world be a very bleak place.

[Xavien]

Why is a bondsmith called a bondsmith? Are there roles attributed to each order? Were bondsmith so few because of their role? Was their role, perhaps, smithing bonds, calling new radiants forth from humans and spren(for in my opinion that is what a knight radiant is, the two working together), aka to "unite them," as urged by Honor?

 

Interesting take, expanding on it what if the "type" of spren that Bondsmith spren are are the type that can create/strengthen Nahel bonds? In WoR when Kaladin says the second ideal the Stormfather says "THE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED" and Syl turns into a shardblade for the first time.  Later when Dalinar speaks the second oath the Stormfather again says the words are accepted.  It feels a lot like the Stormfather's approval is required for that bond to advance. Or that he seals the bond.

 

So what if that is the purpose of the Bondsmith spren? To accept and seal the oaths between man and spren? Do we know where the term "Nahel" came from? Maybe Nahel is the type of spren.  This could still mean there are 3 Bondsmith spren to accept the oaths depending on if the spren belong more to honor or cultivation or a mix.  Or the Stormfathers original name was Nahel with the bonds themselves being named after him and all the Bondsmiths bond with just him.  

Edited January 9, 2015 by Xavien

[Turos]

Good call on the Stormfather's involvement in those things!

 

Why is the Stormfather a bondspren, so to speak? He makes storms. Those don't even seem bondish. I guess highstorms are really more than storms, though. His storms bring stormlight. It's like he carries a shard's well across the world and dumps all of the power back out to the people as it regathers what has been used of lost naturally.

 

And Kaladin was riding it! Kaladin, Well-rider. Not as cool as Bilbo, Barrel-rider, but it still is something.

[dvoraen]

The Stormfather's a "bondspren" in the same way Sylphrena, an honorspren, described herself as a "spirit of oaths," and also she stated, "I bind things."

 

I don't really think it's that odd, in other words, for a spren that's Honor's Cognitive Shadow, to be heavily Invested in binding/bonding.  I do think it matters that it's Honor's Shard at work here, too.  Had the Stormfather been Cultivation's Shadow, I'd have found it a little more weird.

[bookspren]

Just wanted to throw in my thoughts about Moelach and Bondsmith spren.

My Idea:

• The writer of the TWoK Ars Arcanum says they're not sure if "the ten levels of Voidbinding" fit into the little chart given. But the fact that it's mentioned makes me think there is some similarity between Surgebinding and Voidbinding, perhaps leading to parallel orders.
• What if the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and Cusicesh are on the same level with Moelach and the other unmade? There would be some Honor/Cultivation super-spren and some Odium super-spren. Maybe there are even a few more spren on the same level as the big three available for Bondsmiths. This explains why their numbers were few, though three is never stated to be an upper or lower limit on their numbers just that it was not considered uncommon.
• However, to increase their numbers further, they would have to start bonding the Unmade or similar entities that had Odium's Investiture. That would explain why increasing their numbers would have been seditious.

 

Problems with my idea:

• We have no indication that bonding Unmade is possible or that there is much similarity between Surgebinding and Voidbinding.
• It seems odd for an order to be able to bond varying kinds of spren (unless there is some similarity among the super-spren I'm not aware of)
• Tied to the previous, it's odd they all have tension and adhesion if they're bonding different spren.
• This does not explain why the Stormfather refuses to be a Blade for Dalinar. Maybe it's just ego.

Please feel free to tear this apart. It was fun to think about, but I'm probably pretty wrong.

[Moogle]

That aside, you guys are too smart for me, so I admit I skipped after most of the first page. Something did stand out to me, though, and I'm sorry if this has been addressed, but whenever people mention spren bonding to their human symbiant, it is making an idea thing, a bond. Why is a bondsmith called a bondsmith? Are there roles attributed to each order? Were bondsmith so few because of their role? Was their role, perhaps, smithing bonds, calling new radiants forth from humans and spren(for in my opinion that is what a knight radiant is, the two working together), aka to "unite them," as urged by Honor?

 

In a view perhaps more boring than the others brought up so for: I think Bondsmiths are called Bondsmiths because they create bonds between people. Not Radiants, or anything fancy like that (though the Stormfather himself is involved with that, it seems to be an entirely involuntary thing on his part that he doesn't want to do and is just a result of him being Honor's Cognitive Shadow). Dalinar's oath was "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together." This is very straightforward, and gives a very clear idea of what the Bondsmiths are about to me. Their divine attributes according to Vorinism are guiding/pious - Dalinar fits guiding perfectly, if you just look at him trying to give strategies to that one highprince for example, his attempts to bring the codes of war to the army, and his attempts to bring the Radiants together (though those attempts really sucked and he really lucked out on Shallan/Kaladin).

 

Honor seems to be about bonds, as Syl, an honorspren, says - she "binds things". The Stormfather is not an honorspren, but rather he's Honor's spren, so he too binds things like that. This explains some of the similarities between Windrunners and Bondsmiths - they're both apparently natural leaders, for example, because of how similar their spren are. And, of course, both orders have Adhesion - the bond creating Surge.

 

As to why there were so few, Brandon's said it's really hard to be a Bondsmith. That cuts down on the numbers. Regardless of whether you believe the OP or the main alternative (there might be other alternatives, but so far as I know no one has really brought up any convincing ones) on the Bondsmiths bonding super powerful spren or just the Stormfather, it's clear that there are very few Bondsmith-bonding spren.

 

WoB:

Question

Favorite Order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd probably be a Bondsmith. Though becoming a Bondsmith is hard, I don't know if I'd make it.

(source)

Edited January 10, 2015 by Moogle

[natc]

And a lot of that advancement goes towards finding better ways to heal, build, explore, and entertain. If your bound and determined to see only the darkness in us the world be a very bleak place.

Wouldn't need half that stuff if we weren't busy screwing each other really. You do have a point.

Humans are really inconsistent aren't they?

[Bort]

Some interesting points from WoR:

 

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1
----------------------------------------------------------------
But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

 

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

 

So, the Bondmsith equivalent to Shallan's memory has something to do with the Heralds, which could come in handy since there seems to be a couple of them wandering around at present. Either it doesn't allow him to recognise them though, or the man claiming to be Taln really isn't. Or, it could be because Dalinar was not bonded to a spren when he met Taln.

[Moogle]

So, the Bondmsith equivalent to Shallan's memory has something to do with the Heralds, which could come in handy since there seems to be a couple of them wandering around at present.

 

I have a slightly different interpretation - the phrase "it was related to the Heralds and their divine duties" could just mean every order's special abilities are related to the Heralds, including Shallan's.

[Bort]

 it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

 

An attribute the Bonsmiths alone could address. You may be right, but this sounds a little too specific to me.

[Moogle]

An attribute the Bonsmiths alone could address. You may be right, but this sounds a little too specific to me.

 

Right, I'm just saying that I think it could be the Bondsmiths' abilities are related to one aspect of the Heralds, and Shallan's memory or ability to provide "Spiritual sustenance" is another attribute of the Heralds that the Lightweavers alone could address. It's hard to say, given how oddly written the entirety of Words of Radiance is, but that would make more sense to me. I just don't think it would make too much sense for an order's special ability to relate specifically to dealing with Heralds. Language drift is the worst.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Moogle

[Shlee]

I sort of think the bondsmiths were involved with getting the Heralds to sponsor the orders. Since we know that that didn't happen all at once, from the quote about Nalan being the last one to take on patronage of an order. I see the bondsmiths as being sort of the go-between between the heralds/Oathpact and the various orders Knights Radiant after their formation.  Perhaps the bondsmiths were the only Radiants who knew exactly what the heralds' Oathpact contained. They are the guiding and pious order after all, which makes me think their purpose was predominantly leadership and making sure that the knights stayed on the right path and what they were actually doing was in-line with the oathpact and helping Honor. Especially since Ishar is the patron of the bondsmiths and we also know that Ishar is the one who originally came up with the concept that became the Knights Radiant:

 

 

 

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

To me it seems logical that his order, the bondsmiths, would in some capacity continue this sort of purpose. Also supporting the idea that Ishar's order could have understood more about the workings and consequences of the Oathpact and perhaps, breaking it:

 

A…a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end.”

Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. “What will that do?”

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”

 This seems to point to the fact that the heralds themselves don't necessarily understand the ins and outs of the pact, but they seem to think for some reason that Ishar is the authority on the subject. My guess is that the bondsmiths were bonded to some part of Honor itself before it shattered, and had a much clearer idea of what was really going on. 

[Bort]

Not bad speculation Shlee

[Arondell]

Actually I've recently been inclined to question the accuracy of the quote about Ishi'Elin.  Specifically I recalled the vision Dalinar had of Nohadon. 

 

 

 

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”

 

“Their power… well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them….” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given—whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond—needs to make us better.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 849-850). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Before that quote from the in world Words of Radiance came along I was under the assumption that Nohadon had somehow been responsible for the creation of the oaths.  It certainly seems at the time the vision depicts that the oaths were not yet in play and no mention is made of the heralds trying create them.  I'm somewhat suspicious that the part about Ishi'Elin demanding rules and precepts be applied to the Radiants might be a case of the inaccuracy that the books author cautions the reader about.

[Shlee]

I'm glad you brought that up, because after posting this earlier, my brain went off on a tangent and now I have convinced myself that what Ishi'Elin applied rules and precepts to was not the Knights Radiant and their oaths but rather the spren and their bonds. Specifically, the Nahel bond.

 

How he would have done that or had the power to enforce it or "destroy each and every one" I have no idea. Perhaps he had a dawnshard! 

 

 

Not bad speculation Shlee

Thank you I've been a long time lurker, somehow TWoK was the first Sanderson book I stumbled across and I read WoT after, but I waited til WoR confirmed my thoughts on how epic this series was going to be before deciding to jump into the fandom because, in reality, 17th shard and this dwarf galaxy is located in a black hole........

[Turos]

Well welcome to getting sucked beyond the event horizon! There's no turning back now, unless you think you can outrun the catquisitors. (Those guys are scary. Especially while in pursuit.)

[Gyth]

What if a Bondsmith's task is not only to unite men but also Spren?

We know that not all spren seem to get along. In fact some are rather hostile to each other. I remember Syl disliking both Highspren and Pattern (liespren?).

Maybe part of a Bondsmith's unique power comes from bonding the unique "leaders" of the Spren.

Syl refers to the Stormfather as her father. Wyndle makes a reference to his mother. Maybe there is a 3rd as well.

A Bondsmith's bond with these Spren leaders could put him in a unique position to influence all spren into setting aside their differences and working together as one cohesive team. You thought uniting men was hard! Think about all the extremes in all the sprens' ideals.

I could say more but this is a quick post I squeezed in on my lunch break!

[Bort]

There is a third type - Voidspren.

 

The father Syl refers to is Stormfather. The mother Wyndle refers to is Nightwatcher, and the third type of spren Pattern (or was it Syl?) refers to as being 'of him' - Odium.

[natc]

I like how the spren treat Odium like Voldemort to be honest.

[Shlee]

I like how the spren treat Odium like Voldemort to be honest.

  Haha oh my gosh you are so right "We do not speak of them" - Pattern

 

I have no idea how I missed this, as I've been re-reading stormlight archive this week, but listening to Harry Potter in spanish at work every night. Both stories are certainly quite fresh in my head!

[Darkness]

I had a few ideas for what Bondsmiths are for (but I can't figure out how it might relate to their surges):

Firstly, I'm pretty sure that Heralds and the oathpact cycle came before the Knights Radiant, so while the Bondsmiths may help in many ways, they are not entirely fundamental to the oathpact.

Secondly, the only Bondsmith we know (Dalinar), is now bonded to the Stormfather (splinter of Honor) and did not receive a live shardblade.

Tangentially, we don't know what his specific ability is yet, relating to Shallan's memory trick, but I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Forging and maintaining Knightly bonds.

   i. Bonds between Knights and their squires? Perhaps Bondsmiths enabled the training of aspiring Knights-radiant?

   ii. Bonds between Radiants and Orders?

 

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

This seems to imply that the Bondsmiths (as Ishar's patron order) were involved in 'thrusting organization' upon the orders. It sounds like the Bondsmiths may have magical means of holding the Knights accountable to said precepts and laws. (Maybe they crafted something into the Nahel bond? Who knows...)

   iii. More advanced stages of the Nahel bond? Perhaps as a way of regulating the Knights' power, the Bondsmiths knew each of the ideals and would bestow them (seems unlikely since the ideals were mostly instinctual for Kaladin and Shallan), or perhaps the fourth and fifth 'levels of Radiance' can only be activated with help from a Bondsmith?

 

2. Relating to the quotes below:

   i. Pay close attention to the wording: First, 'this order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones'. Not a sub-entity, but equals, perhaps advisors or spiritual leaders. Second (and more importantly), 'Their spren was...' For me, this argues that all Bondsmiths (up to 3 of them) bonded the same spren! The Stormfather does seem to me to be a very specific, particular sort of spren. Perhaps their ability is to be the link between (or inherently understand the intent of) Honor (the Stormfather is the largest sentient splinter of Honor that we've seen) and Roshar's people (Radiants and otherwise)? They could then more readily provide moral and spiritual guidance related to that shardic intent.

   ii. The different stratagem related to the Bondsmith's could be either a different way to destroy the Voidbringers, or a different way altogether  of dealing with the threat. On this I have little, except maybe the Bondsmiths could find a way to bind the Voidbringers into a less destructive state (whether through removing the bonds between Parshendi and stormspren, stuffing the Voidbringers' spren into little black stones, or some other means entirely, I don't know).

 

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1

----------------------------------------------------------------
But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

 

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

[dvoraen]

I like how the spren treat Odium like Voldemort to be honest.

They have very good reason to do so.  We know first-hand that Odium/Rayse is fully intent on destroying everyone and everything in his path to being THE dominant power in the cosmere, and has succeeded in taking out at least four "rivals" of his, including the Shard by whom a majority of the Nahel spren were sired, being 'bits of his power, after all.'

 

I'm rather curious what Nahel spren would say about Sja-anat, too, and whether that particular Unmade's powers do weird or crazy things to them and/or their bonded Radiant.

 

EDIT RE: Bondsmiths.  I always interpretted that epigraph as meaning it was related to the 'tertiary' ability that the Bondsmiths have (Shallan's is her Memory-taking/mnemonics).  The question that's baking my noodle currently, is whether or not the Bondsmiths can literally make someone into a squire for a given Radiant (establish a bond between them).  Since some Orders don't seem to have squires, that's probably a no, but I suddenly wondered this because Bridge Four has had considerable exposure to Dalinar and Kaladin both, but Shallan's deserters/militants have not, that we know of.  This assumes Lightweavers have squires, of course, but if they do have squires, it makes me wonder why Shallan's haven't manifested as such yet, and the only factors I can see are: time and/or lack of proximity to Dalinar.

Edited January 19, 2015 by dvoraen