Sooo... I hate this book. And one side of the romance. And some implications

[KaladinWorldsinger]

(The more I wrote the post, the more angrier and angrier I got because man this book really bothers me)

 

People who love this romance... What does yumi see in painter?

I can see what painter likes in yumi. Yumi is willful, responsible, assertive, duty-minded. There's a lot to respect about Yumi

But painter on the other hand... He is certainly brave as a nightmare painter but yumi doesn't see that side of him till a lot later in the book. He is kind, but he doesn't really show anything much more than basic human decency? Not does Yumi ever comment on him being kind. 

So what does yumi see in painter? He is free-spirited sure, but again there is nothing that shows Yumi noticing this particularly and liking it.

Is there any moment where she is impressed by anything that painter does? Or the type of person he is?

Ven when he talks about how his creative process of making art is, painter doesn't really teach yumi to appreciate art that way. Instead he just makes her draw bamboo. Even she is disappointed by it.

He is a very passive character, while yumi is very active and constantly making decisions and having full control of the flow of the story.

And then the lies. Painter isn't just someone, who let's people put their hopes on him and he is too afraid to correct them. He lies through his teeth. With yumi:

Quote

“Yes. I’m among the greatest.”(of heroes on my planet)

Why would you lie like that, painter? I get wanting to not let down a person, when they are hopeful. But actively choosing to lie and increase their expectations?

Quote

“Is it…poisoned or something?” he said. “Not that I mind. I am strong enough to stomach any poison, of course.”

This dude is a huuuge liar. What reason could you have to say this than making yourself feel important?

The way this is addressed is just soooo wrong too. I mean...

Quote

“I want you to know,” she told him, “that I don’t think you’re a liar.”

“I literally did lie though,” he said. “It’s a fact.”

“Why did you do it?”

“Because…I was too weak to tell the truth?”

“Because,” she said pointedly, “you didn’t want to hurt the people you loved.”

Um.. WHAT? That is so not the primary motivating factor for painter. He found out that he wasn't selected for the dreamwatch. At that point, his friends dreams are already crushed. It's done. If he truly cared about not hurting the people he loved, he would have told them the truth after a day or two. Because bringing their hopes up is setting them for a bigger fall. But he strings them along for A YEAR! Why does he do that? Because of his need for validation, his ego. What he did was not kind in any way, it was selfish. 

Now, i fully understand what painter did, because I relate hard to him. I have done what he did many times.  But the truth remains he did it for validation, for their approval, for their respect. He could not bear their looks of disappointment. That needs to be acknowledged. He was a weak man, too weak to tell the truth. 

Quote

“Again,” she said, “because you wanted so desperately to be the thing I needed. You wanted to help me, Painter. And yes, maybe you wanted to pretend to be someone great. That’s not the action of a liar, but a dreamer.”

She nodded sharply. “I was taught that a liar is someone who takes advantage of others to get gain. That’s not you. It’s never been you.”

Everything said here is wrong. He pretended to be great, it is definitely the action of a liar. Just because he dreams of being useful to people doesnt mean he is not a liar.

He did take advantage of them. Their ignorance. And his gain was being able to escape their looks of disappointment. Protecting his ego.

Quote

“I don’t blame you, Nikaro. Maybe stop blaming yourself. You see, I’ve learned one thing from your world, more than any other.”

“Which…is?”

“Answers,” she said, “are not simple. They never were.”

This is wishy-washy to the extreme. I mean come on, answers are not simple? In any other story the quote would instead have been

Quote

Yes, Nikaro, you did the wrong thing. But I saw how much you still beat yourself up over it. You need to realise that you can be better than this. So try to trust in yourself a little?

Then it would make sense. Painter genuinely trying to change is something she can appreciate, respect and fall in love with. But nope, 'answers are never simple' apparently. Rejoice everyone, no more morality!

Quote

“He should have told us,” Akane said.

“He should have,” Yumi agreed. “He agrees. I agree. You agree. We all (lowly) agree! But he didn’t tell you. It happened. It’s over. I’m sorry.” She sighed, her rage waning like the last jets of a drowsy steamwell. “You were his friends. He failed you. He ruined your lives.

But did you ever think how unfair it was that he was responsible for your lives?”

This quote would have been totally fine if NOT FOR THE LAST LINE! How is it his friends fault that he chose to give them their dreams???? If you remember

Quote

“Each member of the Dreamwatch gets a team, called companions. Nikaro promised us that we’d be his. It…would have changed a lot. Not just money. But…I mean, I told my family.”

There is no indication that his friends forced him to make them his companions. HE promised them. There is absolutely nothing unfair happening to Nikaro here. 

 

This dude doesn't even seem to have apologized. The way the ending apology is written, it totally looks like this is the first time he sincerely apologizes for what he did to them.(He seems to have just avoided them before this, from my guess)

All in all, he isn't the worst or the spawn of Satan, but he is a very weak man till the ending of the story. And it will always confuse me what a strong person would find attractive in a weak person.

If you are not tired, let's talk about Yumi too. She makes me uncomfortable, not because of her character, but because of the implications around her character.

So at first, Yumi has trouble asserting herself and her needs before Liyun. Makes sense. She gets regularly emotionally abused by her  after all. So ofcourse i thought she would be meek, gentle, humble, shy, pushover etc.

But then the script changes, and she becomes wilful, stubborn, active, assertive while still scared of Liyun. Ok, intriguing...

This isn't like yumi is special among Yoko hijo tho...

Apparently, all the yoko-hijo are people with strong willpower. My question is strong-willed in what way exactly? 

Strong willed as in highly self-disciplined? This makes sense as they are regularly guilt-tripped into doing their work, so of course they will be good workers(stacking rocks)

But how did that help them refuse to be bound to the shroud?

Quote

However, after a short time these fourteen souls pulled themselves free of the shroud and re-formed. They came back from the dead, refusing to be controlled.
All fourteen women were beings of incredible willpower. 

That sounds like strong-willed as in willful, assertive, a strong sense of Identity etc. Which yoko-hijos should be low on because of their upbringing. I mean, they are regularly told that they are not a person too.

They aren't even allowed to choose their dresses. How would they truly know what they want? When they have no real experiences?

This also leads into the uncomfortable territory of pain(and abuse) cause strength. It's the age old question of 'should the wizarding world thank the Dursleys for emotionally torturing Harry until he became exactly the strong willed hero they needed?'

Like the machine would have outright won if not for these 14 women who were treated inhumanely. Thank God for that religion. I guess if I want a son who is a wilful person, I better start pressuring him with guilt-trips and the weight of my expectations.... Good to know

Phew, that was a load of my chest.

 

 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

 

Appreciate the honest thoughts mate, thank you for putting them forth.

My two cents regarding the yoki-hijo and their willpower being able to separate from the Shroud. 

1. We don't know if the other thirteen women where treated inhumanely. We learn that many of them (pre-shroud) were part of a reformist movement that allowed them a lot more freedom and individuality. We also don't know if Liyun is how all the other warden's treated their yoki-hijo, or if she's just the most hardcore version.

2. Separating from the shroud required both strength of Identity and a highly Invested spiritweb. They were Elantrian level Invested, something the machine was only able to shred initially, but that strength of self and amount of Investiture was able to reform itself.

In regards to the pain causing strength, I don't feel like that was the message being put forth here. As Dalinar said "Ten spears go to battle, and nine shatter. Did that war forge the one that remained? No, Amaram. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break."

The yoki-hijo have a lot of expectation on their shoulders - not because of being guilt tripped (though this is often an accompaniment), but because they provide an essential service. They're like firefighters, or nurses. They carry a ton of weight on their shoulders each day, and likely deal with even more abuse. This isn't good, it isn't fair, but it's reality.

Many essential workers face that war each day, and they keep working through it, keep helping people. They have not broken. Why would facing the shroud be any different?

 

Also, I feel it's a little reductive for us, as readers, to say 'How would they truly know what they want? When they have no real experiences?'

Who are we to decide that someone raised in such a controlling way 'can't know' what they want out of life?

Who are we to say they have no real experiences, when every new day provides nothing but experiences? 

How can we make such a heavy judgement in good faith? Do we know better then them?

I feel that is too personal a question to place a blanket statement over. 

 

Regarding what Yumi sees in Nikaro, I feel that's a much more subjective topic. 

My personal take was less about what she saw of him, but more about what she saw in him. She could see the potential that he smothered with lies, see the truth beyond the hypocrisy. Saw the hero beneath the failure, which he proved multiple times. Heck, he proved it right near the start by going after the stable nightmare. He IS a liar, he IS blaming himself, he DID do the wrong thing with his friends.

But this doesn't mean he's a failure or a mistake, or incapable of doing better. This doesn't make him hopeless - he just needs to take hold of his own power. I believe that this is what Yumi saw, and what drew her in.

Again, that's a very subjective thing though, and it's going to be different for everyone.  

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

As Dalinar Kaladin said "Ten spears go to battle, and nine shatter. Did that war forge the one that remained? No, Amaram. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break."

FTFY

OB Ch: 120

Spoiler

“I made you! I forged you!” He leaped at Kaladin, propelling himself off the ground, hanging in the air.

And in so doing, he entered Kaladin’s domain.

Kaladin launched at Amaram. The highprince swung, but the winds themselves curled around Kaladin, and he anticipated the attack. He Lashed himself to the side, narrowly avoiding one Blade. Windspren streaked past him as he dodged the other by a hair’s width.

Syl became a spear in his grip, matching his motions perfectly. He spun and slammed her against the gemstone at Amaram’s heart. The amethyst cracked, and Amaram faltered in the air—then dropped.

Two Shardblades vanished to mist as the highprince fell some twenty feet to crash into the ground.

Kaladin floated downward toward him. “Ten spears go to battle,” he whispered, “and nine shatter. Did that war forge the one that remained? No, Amaram. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.”

Amaram climbed to his knees, howling with a bestial sound and clutching the flickering gemstone at his chest, which went out, plunging the area into darkness.

7 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

This dude doesn't even seem to have apologized. The way the ending apology is written, it totally looks like this is the first time he sincerely apologizes for what he did to them.(He seems to have just avoided them before this, from my guess)

All in all, he isn't the worst or the spawn of Satan, but he is a very weak man till the ending of the story.

23 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

My personal take was less about what she saw of him, but more about what she saw in him. She could see the potential that he smothered with lies, see the truth beyond the hypocrisy. Saw the hero beneath the failure, which he proved multiple times. Heck, he proved it right near the start by going after the stable nightmare. He IS a liar, he IS blaming himself, he DID do the wrong thing with his friends.

But this doesn't mean he's a failure or a mistake, or incapable of doing better. This doesn't make him hopeless - he just needs to take hold of his own power. I believe that this is what Yumi saw, and what drew her in.

On the one hand, I agree with KWS in that he should have apologized before we see it on screen. On the other hand, I also had the impression that as soon as "the clique" found out he was not accepted to the Dreamwatch, they ostrasized him and gave him no chance to apologize either.

Nikaro shows classic self-esteem issues, coupled with shyness and introversion. In the end, we can only base our reactions based on what we know or suspect. I cut him some slack because I, too, am very introverted (INTJ); I too have failed to tell  people things because I thought it would be easier if they found out for themselves, then asked me about it (I, too, was wrong). It sounded more like lying-by-omission to me (at least after the rejection); but I very much agree with most of the OP. If anything, KWS and I are reversed - I feel about Yumi the way the OP feels about Nikaro (maybe not quite that angry).

 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

FTFY

OB Ch: 120

  Hide contents

“I made you! I forged you!” He leaped at Kaladin, propelling himself off the ground, hanging in the air.

And in so doing, he entered Kaladin’s domain.

Kaladin launched at Amaram. The highprince swung, but the winds themselves curled around Kaladin, and he anticipated the attack. He Lashed himself to the side, narrowly avoiding one Blade. Windspren streaked past him as he dodged the other by a hair’s width.

Syl became a spear in his grip, matching his motions perfectly. He spun and slammed her against the gemstone at Amaram’s heart. The amethyst cracked, and Amaram faltered in the air—then dropped.

Two Shardblades vanished to mist as the highprince fell some twenty feet to crash into the ground.

Kaladin floated downward toward him. “Ten spears go to battle,” he whispered, “and nine shatter. Did that war forge the one that remained? No, Amaram. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.”

Amaram climbed to his knees, howling with a bestial sound and clutching the flickering gemstone at his chest, which went out, plunging the area into darkness.

 

Ahh, cheers for that! My apologies.

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

On the one hand, I agree with KWS in that he should have apologized before we see it on screen. On the other hand, I also had the impression that as soon as "the clique" found out he was not accepted to the Dreamwatch, they ostracized him and gave him no chance to apologize either.

Yeah, I do agree - he should definitely have apologized first, so long as the gang gave him the opportunity. It's certainly a character flaw, but I don't feel like it's a narrative one. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 7/19/2023 at 4:53 PM, Werewolff Studios said:

We don't know if the other thirteen women where treated inhumanely. We learn that many of them (pre-shroud) were part of a reformist movement that allowed them a lot more freedom and individuality. We also don't know if Liyun is how all the other warden's treated their yoki-hijo, or if she's just the most hardcore version

Then shouldn't there be more people who were able to resist the shroud? What makes the yoko-hijo special? And if the other 13 had better living conditions, then where did yumi get her willpower from? Was she just born with it?

On 7/19/2023 at 4:53 PM, Werewolff Studios said:

Also, I feel it's a little reductive for us, as readers, to say 'How would they truly know what they want? When they have no real experiences?'

They don't get to meet and interact with people much, they don't get to make choices for themselves, nearly every day of their life is very similar. That is why I don't think they could have well developed senses of identity. What other way is there to gain it?  I think there is direct thought from Yumi about how she didn't know what she exactly wanted anymore, but I can't find it.

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Then shouldn't there be more people who were able to resist the shroud? What makes the yoko-hijo special? And if the other 13 had better living conditions, then where did yumi get her willpower from? Was she just born with it?

I believe that much of their resistance is due to the nature of their highly Invested spiritwebs. As Design says, Yumi's Elantrian level in terms of Investiture - that's what makes them special. That Investiture is tied to their sense of Identity, which everyone in the cosmere has. It was a combination of both of those things that re-forged their souls. 

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

They don't get to meet and interact with people much, they don't get to make choices for themselves, nearly every day of their life is very similar. That is why I don't think they could have well developed senses of identity. What other way is there to gain it?  

Again, we've seen all of this from Yumi's perspective, so it's hard to say for certain what the lives of the other thirteen looked like. If they were granted more independence, that would certainly help establish a stronger sense of identity.

However, in terms of where Yumi specifically got her willpower from...where does willpower come from, empirically speaking? 

One idea is that willpower comes from, or is linked with, self-control and endurance; denying more pleasurable/ easier paths for ones more painful, but more beneficial. An athlete with a lot of willpower will have a greater sense of discipline in keeping consistent with a workout schedule, even if they don't feel like working out. A firefighter with a lot of willpower will be able to push through the pain to save somebody, or (alternatively) be able to recognize when somebody cannot be saved and not let that break them.

From what we know about Yumi, her sense of self-control at enduring through hardship, not breaking through the war, is pretty well developed, and likely comes from a lifetime of serving others. Look at her first scene of stacking stones - she pushes herself to exhaustion, fingers made bloody. Now, you could say she was 'forced' to do that, but the text implies that she kept going not for the onlookers, but to be worthy for the spirits. In fact, despite her work, she still thinks of herself as unworthy, as she secretly yearns for freedom. 

I feel what she lacks is independence and perspective. All she knows is her own life, devoid of freedom, so once Nikaro comes in and starts questioning things, starts breaking down those social boundaries (even if unintentionally at first), Yumi starts to shift that sense of willpower on to the good things she was missing in her life. And we see, at the end of the book, that sense of willpower was enough for her to pull herself back together, with Nikaro's help. Our world, our rules. As Hoid said, "she was as real as anyone else, because she wanted to be."

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I think there is direct thought from Yumi about how she didn't know what she exactly wanted anymore, but I can't find it.

I could be wrong here, but there is a quote right at the end of the book when she says this : "I'm losing myself, Nikaro", she thought. "No one knows me anymore. I don't even know myself. I'm sorry. It was always a dream."  I feel that's more so to do with her accepting that she was dispersing with the shroud, and her willingness to sacrifice herself so that Nikaro and her friends may live. And again, once Nikaro is able to Connect her back and convince her to stay, she chooses to. 

May not be the quote you mentioned though.

Again though, this is just my perspective on things. I'm not trying to invalidate yours, and I apologize if that's what came across. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Werewolff Studios
Spelling

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, Werewolff Studios said:

I believe that much of their resistance is due to the nature of their highly Invested spiritwebs. As Design says, Yumi's Elantrian level in terms of Investiture - that's what makes them special. That Investiture is tied to their sense of Identity, which everyone in the cosmere has. It was a combination of both of those things that re-forged their souls. 

The text specifically implies that they were beings of incredible willpower first, refusing to be controlled, and then mentions that they were highly invested. It doesn't specify how important that was.

 

1 hour ago, Werewolff Studios said:

One idea is that willpower comes from, or is linked with, self-control and endurance; denying more pleasurable/ easier paths for ones more painful, but more beneficial.

I definitely think that the yoko-hijo are strong willed as in self-disciplined, self-controlled. They are incredible hard workers. That's what they choose to do after all.

But self-discipline has nothing to do with assertiveness. They are very different skillsets. In fact I think the yoko-hijo should be very low on that scale and be completely unable to resist the machine, more than even the average person. 

Yumi is really, really scared to ask for a visit to the festival on her birthday. How can someone like that 'refuse to be controlled' when no one else on the planet could? For an accommodating person, it is hard to switch the other way and be assertive all of a sudden. I think all pushovers would agree, it is hard to stand up for yourself. She has momentum in being accommodating (borrowing the idea from tress), it would be very hard to change course.

1 hour ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Again though, this is just my perspective on things. I'm not trying to invalidate yours, and I apologize if that's what came across. 

Oh no, I am happy to discuss. My initial post was angry because I needed to let that out(a lot of the book rubs me the wrong way), but i definitely want to understand why some people love this so much when I don't.

 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

13 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The text specifically implies that they were beings of incredible willpower first, refusing to be controlled, and then mentions that they were highly invested. It doesn't specify how important that was.

While this is true, it's also a bit subjective on how important it is. It's the same section of text.

14 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I definitely think that the yoko-hijo are strong willed as in self-disciplined, self-controlled. They are incredible hard workers. That's what they choose to do after all.

But self-discipline has nothing to do with assertiveness. They are very different skillsets. In fact I think the yoko-hijo should be very low on that scale and be completely unable to resist the machine, more than even the average person. 

Yumi is really, really scared to ask for a visit to the festival on her birthday. How can someone like that 'refuse to be controlled' when no one else on the planet could? For an accommodating person, it is hard to switch the other way and be assertive all of a sudden. I think all pushovers would agree, it is hard to stand up for yourself. She has momentum in being accommodating (borrowing the idea from tress), it would be very hard to change course.

Yes, I agree with this. Being assertive and being self-disciplined are different skillsets. It takes Yumi much of the book to stand up for herself and her station. 

However, I feel most of that isn't due to Yumi being a pushover by personality; it's being a slave to society and expectation. The text actually says this on page 73 "Yumi wasn't weak. She wasn't a pushover. Don't assume fragility where you should see patience." 

She wants to be seen as worthy by the spirits. More than that, she wants to do what she sees is right. It just happens that so much of that has been hamstrung with tradition, expectation and guilt. Yumi, and probably the other yoki-hijo, are choosing to be submissive, because they've been taught that being free and assertive aren't the right thing for a yoki-hijo to do and will offend the spirits. And, if they offend the spirits, they can't do their job and the people suffer and die.  

To me, it feels more like the 'anger of a gentle man' thing for Yumi. We see what happens when Nikaro pushes her too far and she gets in his face, staring him down. She does have a backbone, she's just afraid that using it will offend the hijo and those that depend on her work.

A Machine that literally shredded the souls of those same people would certainly induce some anger, I reckon. Bear in mind, the soul that reformed was her spiritual aspect; the most perfect, ideal version of herself. That aspect of Yumi had that assertive nature within it, even if she didn't know about it (cognitively speaking).

Personally, I feel the 'refuse to be controlled' line is also more specifically about the yoki-hijo refusing the Machine's control (rather than control in general), as it went against everything they'd been taught to live for. It killed the people, trapped the spirits and darkened their world. If you were one of the pillars of your entire society, and then something killed most of that society, I feel that even the most passive and submissive person wouldn't take that lying down. 

45 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Oh no, I am happy to discuss. My initial post was angry because I needed to let that out(a lot of the book rubs me the wrong way), but I definitely want to understand why some people love this so much when I don't.

Well, I can't stop the book from not sitting right with you. Hopefully I'm able to pass on some understanding from my end 

[Config2]

I think some of your concerns are valid about the book. As the quoted sections show, I think that the implication is that certain individuals are born with naturally more willpower: the spirits (who are splinters of a god who probably would be good at identifying potential via futuresight (Virtuosity)), presumably can detect this and invest them. The investiture gives them the ability to mechanically resist the machine, while their natural willpower gives them the inclination to do so.

I think it's implied that Liyun believes that suffering breeds strength. She doesn't necessarily want Yumi to be in pain, but clearly sees it as necessary for Yumi to be the best Yoki-hijo possible (hence the years of abuse). Part of Yumi's growth is discovering that Liyun is wrong, and that she and her sister yoki-hijo don't need this suffering to drive them.

Regarding the "what does Yumi see in painter" question: Brandon Sanderson is an artist. He wrote this book for his wife. I think he may have unintentionally downplayed the positive characteristics of Painter out of self-consciousness. Very minor cosmere spoiler ahead:

Spoiler

On the other hand, characters who are very different from Brandon (like Adolin) are much easier for him to write about in terms of their romantic appeal to women. 

While I don't know you @KaladinWorldsinger, you say you identify with and understand why Painter does what he does. If you do (like I do), it might be worth pointing out that Painter has struggles with self worth. If you see him as a stand in for yourself to some degree, and also struggle with self worth, it might be difficult for you (like it was for me) to see him as worthy of someone like Yumi. 

Last thing I'd say, if you get literal sparks when touching someone, even if it's through magical means, you probably are going to be inclined to be interested in them. I wouldn't disagree that it's a literary cheat to give this as a reason for two people to be together, but it is a reason nonetheless. 

[bmcclure7]

On 7/20/2023 at 1:15 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The text specifically implies that they were beings of incredible willpower first, refusing to be controlled, and then mentions that they were highly invested. It doesn't specify how important that was.

 

I definitely think that the yoko-hijo are strong willed as in self-disciplined, self-controlled. They are incredible hard workers. That's what they choose to do after all.

But self-discipline has nothing to do with assertiveness. They are very different skillsets. In fact I think the yoko-hijo should be very low on that scale and be completely unable to resist the machine, more than even the average person. 

Yumi is really, really scared to ask for a visit to the festival on her birthday. How can someone like that 'refuse to be controlled' when no one else on the planet could? For an accommodating person, it is hard to switch the other way and be assertive all of a sudden. I think all pushovers would agree, it is hard to stand up for yourself. She has momentum in being accommodating (borrowing the idea from tress), it would be very hard to change course.

Oh no, I am happy to discuss. My initial post was angry because I needed to let that out(a lot of the book rubs me the wrong way), but i definitely want to understand why some people love this so much when I don't.

 

 Your logic is flawed,  You're equating Strong will with assertiveness. 

 

These are 2 very different concepts. Yumi  Has strong will but not  Assertiveness. Painter has a weak will but it's very assertive. 

 

 It wasn't the strong will that made it impossible for a machine to control them it was their investiture. They are strong will made sure that they formed Themselves back together without the help of the machine. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Torero]

I don't know how to pass along this message, but I agree with the comment Brandon himself made about Elantris and Warbreaker: great depiction of characters is what differentiates great writers from good--loose wording, same meaning.

Brandon: please stop focusing on 127 different magic systems and pay your full attention to your characters, their motivations, consistency of their intent (yes, that's the word you often use), and their believable evolution. This part really needs work.

I know Brandon _can_ do it if he gets his priorities right. Can the beta readers help? It really is very important not to be taking the wrong direction at this time.

[Sixth]

Overall I thought the story was pretty good, but I must say I agree with a lot of your points here.

I would have loved to see more action. I felt like the whole story just dragged along seemingly without end, right until the very end of the book. 

My biggest gripe has to be how Yumi came back to life. She gets to come back to life just because she willed it or whatever? Seems pretty weak to me. IMO the story would have ended much better if she had just died, but I guess that would have defeated the romance of the story. 

[Chana]

I find this very interesting as I didn't question any of those things when reading, its interesting how differently different people can interpret the same text.

I definitely read the whole yoko-hijo thing as the investiture being what made them resistant to the machine not their personalities. I imagine them being born with this power that gives them massive pressure to serve the society results in them being strong-willed and disciplined. They are born special as marked by the omen upon their birth and then they are raised special but the key to everything is them being highly invested. 

As for what Yumi sees in painter I feel like its very natural for her to fall for the first person who actually treats her like human and encourages her to advocate for herself and relax from her crazy routine. They also spend a lot of time together occupying each others bodies being the only people they actually talked to for the first time in forever. It's just human to form attachments through an experience like that. They had a lot in common both being artists and feeling extremely isolated. I also don't think Painter was that horrible like he was just human who made some mistakes, I honestly expected the reveal to be much worse from how it was built up and at that point this was the least of their problems. At the end of the day most people just fall for people not because they are beacons of morality and amazing humans but because they were there for each other and because they find someone who listens and sees them for who they are. At the end of the day, a love story is sold through the writing of interactions between the characters and their chemistry and I personally found the chemistry between Yumi and Painter believable.

[AquaRegia he/him]

One of the lessons I've learned (or that I'm still working on learning, perhaps) is that humans are very complex.  Human emotions, human motivations, and human responses to each other are almost never simple.  The way you see someone can be colored very strongly by your own experiences or attitudes.  If you look for the good in people, you will see it.  If you look for the bad, you will see it.  Neither is ever exclusively true nor false.

I had no problem believing both the strengths and shortcomings of Nikaro, and believing the way Yumi felt about him.  Is this Brandon's BEST work?  I agree it's not... but I found it plenty good enough to emotionally carry me along.

[MistbornMathematician]

On 7/25/2023 at 10:48 AM, Sixth said:

My biggest gripe has to be how Yumi came back to life. She gets to come back to life just because she willed it or whatever? Seems pretty weak to me. IMO the story would have ended much better if she had just died, but I guess that would have defeated the romance of the story. 

I can't help but think that the ending likely did end with her being dead, and Brandon got the feedback of "absolutely not, make it a happy ending". 

On 7/20/2023 at 8:41 AM, Config2 said:

Regarding the "what does Yumi see in painter" question: Brandon Sanderson is an artist. He wrote this book for his wife. I think he may have unintentionally downplayed the positive characteristics of Painter out of self-consciousness.

 I felt this way as well. It felt unusually personal, like he was putting too much of himself into the character and thus had difficultly writing him positively. I think this largely contributed to my feeling bizarrely voyeuristic when reading, like it was a slightly-cringeworthy romantic poem between a couple that I was never supposed to see.

[Colors]

Painter is clearly a very flawed individual, and I honestly didn't like him at first either, but I think there is a lot to process here. He was clearly depressed about what he did to his friends and how he had failed the only real friends he had ever made. Shame and depression make it very easy to avoid the people you have hurt instead of facing down what you did to them. Yes, that's absolutely weakness, but the point of the story is his growth to address the weakness.  Nikaro is a caring person, he's a brave person, he clearly cares about people in general. He's very talented, and despite kind of being socially awkward, he seems to be a likeable person when he isn't in the depths of depression. 

I think the main reason Yumi grows to love him though is that they shared this experience of her learning that she could be a person, she could be happy, she could do things for herself, she didn't have to literally always and every time put someone else first. Spend that much time with someone and you're going to grow a bond with them and sometimes that bond can lead to something more. 

On 7/25/2023 at 10:48 AM, Sixth said:

Overall I thought the story was pretty good, but I must say I agree with a lot of your points here.

I would have loved to see more action. I felt like the whole story just dragged along seemingly without end, right until the very end of the book. 

My biggest gripe has to be how Yumi came back to life. She gets to come back to life just because she willed it or whatever? Seems pretty weak to me. IMO the story would have ended much better if she had just died, but I guess that would have defeated the romance of the story. 

I mean, it does go along with the ideas and themes of the story. The nightmares were just investiture that could shape themselves into whatever they wanted, essentially light weavings of a sort. She was massively invested, her cognitive/spiritual aspect being able to create a physical manifestation of herself doesn't seem out of place knowing what we know about investiture and realmatic theory.