Firesong Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 I have been wondering what exactly defines the difference between a Shard and a Splinter, as you can keep breaking down a Shard into many, many, many Splinters, but as you keep going, what continues to define where the Shard ends and Splinters begin. And I came up with an idea, Shards having some sort of "Core" Imagine a circle with a very large radius, and a tiny one in the exact centre. Then make chords across the circle, removing the area between the chord and the arc. This would be similar to the idea of breaking off Splinters. You can do this as many times as you want. I believe that the Shard is defined by what piece this "core" is in. Following from this, Splintering a Shard in its totality would have to do with the destruction of this Core. I also believe we have essentially seen these, when we see Sazed pick up Ruin and Preservation and they are basically just balls of essence, I feel these balls are the Cores of the Shards. If this is true, it suggests that a Shard can reduce itself to basically nothing, to where it is basically just a Spren, while everything else is a splinter. Which I find an interesting idea. Though, it could be that the Core contains a minimum amount of Investiture that they cannot excise from themselves without causing irreparable damage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 Shards are 1/16th of actual Infinity, and technically it's far more (and larger) than what even the Vessels can tap into. The shattering of Adonalsium seems to have been far more fundamental than the sort of finite Splintering that can happen (or be consciously done) by Shards, since it split Infinity into 16 "smaller" Infinities. TL;DR Shards are lesser Infinites that still stretch fovever into the depths of the Spiritual Realm, while Splinters are still finite and theoretically quantifiable in terms of Units of Investiture (which is something the RL Dragonsteel team is working on but has not yet released). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 14 minutes ago, Firesong said: I have been wondering what exactly defines the difference between a Shard and a Splinter, as you can keep breaking down a Shard into many, many, many Splinters, but as you keep going, what continues to define where the Shard ends and Splinters begin. "Worrying that a Shard will run out of investiture to give is like worrying that Earth will run out of carbon because people are being born" - Shards are basically infinite, Splinters aren't. A Shard is a power controlled by a Vessel, while Splinters are autonomous, outside of Vessel's control. A Splinter is no longer a part of a Shard and is self-aware. That's the difference. Spoiler Alex M What's the difference between avatar and Splinter? Brandon Sanderson These are all very weird terms that I'm just using. *mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing. An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do. Brandon Sanderson *realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies* A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Splintering of a Shard that actually kills it is about fracturing of the mind (Vessel), also said in SH: Spoiler Little Wilson You mentioned that half(-ish) Shards are whole at-- during Shadows of Self. Is that counting Splinters? Brandon Sanderson Okay, one more time. Little Wilson You mentioned that half-- like I think it was at the Bands of Mourning release party-- you said that "half-ish Shards are whole" during Shadows of Self. Brandon Sanderson "Half-ish Shards are whole?" Little Wilson Yeah, you didn't want to do the math, because it was-- *interrupted* Brandon Sanderson Oh, I get it. You're saying-- Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of Shards that are half-powered. That's not what you're saying. Half of the existing Shards. Little Wilson Yes, yes. Brandon Sanderson Okay, got it. Yeah. Little Wilson And does that-- is that counting Splinters? Splintered Shards? Brandon Sanderson Um, no. I mean, a-- Splintered is one of the ways that they are not considered whole. Zas678 Like completely Splintered as in Dominion and Devotion. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. That's what-- That's the opposite of whole. Zas678 But having a Splinter, like Endowment... Little Wilson Because I-- I was kind of going with "Shattered" <and> "Splintered". So Shattered would be kind of what I was going with Devotion and Dominion. Brandon Sanderson Okay. Little Wilson And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before-- Isaac Stewart Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it? Brandon Sanderson Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there. Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016) I think there is no core, there is a Vessel holding that Shard together - we know Shard's power left alone can be a very dangerous thing (Sel), a Vesselless Shard isn't a good thing and might end up Splintering itself or do something worse: Spoiler Questioner When a Shard Splinters, does it have any effect on the cosmere that we aren’t seeing yet? Brandon Sanderson No. Questioner What would be the effect if all the Shards Splintered? Brandon Sanderson It does have, but see, there is Splintering, and there’s Splintering. Traumatic Splintering is a different event than a Shard Splintering themselves, or things like this. There’s a whole continuum going on there. All the Shards being Splintered would, of course, have an effect. But it could have all kinds of different effects based on how, and why, and what’s going on, and what happened to the different pieces of Investiture. You can have a full Splintering, where the Shard is just completely blasted into pieces. Or you can have a Shard taking off pieces of their soul and Splintering it out and sending it off to be self-aware, and things like that. These are two different things. Also, there’s a whole bunch of nuance in that question. But the answer is: it will inevitably have an effect, and there are effects that have happened in the cosmere that you don’t recognize yet as being the effects of Splintering, and things like that. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Spoiler sufficientlyadvanced It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why? Brandon Sanderson It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel. Phantine Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though. Brandon Sanderson Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless... Windrunner If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered? Brandon Sanderson No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous. It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial. General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Quantus said: Shards are 1/16th of actual Infinity, and technically it's far more (and larger) than what even the Vessels can tap into. The shattering of Adonalsium seems to have been far more fundamental than the sort of finite Splintering that can happen (or be consciously done) by Shards, since it split Infinity into 16 "smaller" Infinities. TL;DR Shards are lesser Infinites that still stretch fovever into the depths of the Spiritual Realm, while Splinters are still finite and theoretically quantifiable in terms of Units of Investiture (which is something the RL Dragonsteel team is working on but has not yet released). No, Shards are finite. That is more more consistent and supported by the books and Brandon. So, you are wrong there. I don't remember anything in the books supporting the idea of them being truly infinite, it was always just said from the perspective of humans. If you want to say that it was literal, you would also have to say that the physical size of the Stormfather is literally infinite, as it uses descriptors in the exact same way. What it is, is unable to be completely depleted due to the fact it cannot be created or destroyed, just changed in form. It is not actually infinite in quantity. This is supported by WoBs. For another piece of evidence, why is only Sel victim to the Plasma Storm if the storm has a literally infinite amount of Investiture storming around? How would the creation of Scadrial and the taking of Investiture from Ruin to make Atium cause Shards to weaken? It is all pretty consistent about how the amount is finite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, alder24 said: "Worrying that a Shard will run out of investiture to give is like worrying that Earth will run out of carbon because people are being born" - Shards are basically infinite, Splinters aren't. A Shard is a power controlled by a Vessel, while Splinters are autonomous, outside of Vessel's control. A Splinter is no longer a part of a Shard and is self-aware. That's the difference. Reveal hidden contents Alex M What's the difference between avatar and Splinter? Brandon Sanderson These are all very weird terms that I'm just using. *mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing. An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do. Brandon Sanderson *realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies* A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Splintering of a Shard that actually kills it is about fracturing of the mind (Vessel), also said in SH: Reveal hidden contents Little Wilson You mentioned that half(-ish) Shards are whole at-- during Shadows of Self. Is that counting Splinters? Brandon Sanderson Okay, one more time. Little Wilson You mentioned that half-- like I think it was at the Bands of Mourning release party-- you said that "half-ish Shards are whole" during Shadows of Self. Brandon Sanderson "Half-ish Shards are whole?" Little Wilson Yeah, you didn't want to do the math, because it was-- *interrupted* Brandon Sanderson Oh, I get it. You're saying-- Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of Shards that are half-powered. That's not what you're saying. Half of the existing Shards. Little Wilson Yes, yes. Brandon Sanderson Okay, got it. Yeah. Little Wilson And does that-- is that counting Splinters? Splintered Shards? Brandon Sanderson Um, no. I mean, a-- Splintered is one of the ways that they are not considered whole. Zas678 Like completely Splintered as in Dominion and Devotion. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. That's what-- That's the opposite of whole. Zas678 But having a Splinter, like Endowment... Little Wilson Because I-- I was kind of going with "Shattered" <and> "Splintered". So Shattered would be kind of what I was going with Devotion and Dominion. Brandon Sanderson Okay. Little Wilson And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before-- Isaac Stewart Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it? Brandon Sanderson Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there. Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016) I think there is no core, there is a Vessel holding that Shard together - we know Shard's power left alone can be a very dangerous thing (Sel), a Vesselless Shard isn't a good thing and might end up Splintering itself or do something worse: Reveal hidden contents Questioner When a Shard Splinters, does it have any effect on the cosmere that we aren’t seeing yet? Brandon Sanderson No. Questioner What would be the effect if all the Shards Splintered? Brandon Sanderson It does have, but see, there is Splintering, and there’s Splintering. Traumatic Splintering is a different event than a Shard Splintering themselves, or things like this. There’s a whole continuum going on there. All the Shards being Splintered would, of course, have an effect. But it could have all kinds of different effects based on how, and why, and what’s going on, and what happened to the different pieces of Investiture. You can have a full Splintering, where the Shard is just completely blasted into pieces. Or you can have a Shard taking off pieces of their soul and Splintering it out and sending it off to be self-aware, and things like that. These are two different things. Also, there’s a whole bunch of nuance in that question. But the answer is: it will inevitably have an effect, and there are effects that have happened in the cosmere that you don’t recognize yet as being the effects of Splintering, and things like that. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Reveal hidden contents sufficientlyadvanced It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why? Brandon Sanderson It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel. Phantine Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though. Brandon Sanderson Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless... Windrunner If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered? Brandon Sanderson No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous. It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial. General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013) I know what exactly a Splinter is, I was talking about where exactly you would stop calling a Shard a Shard as you continue to break it up into smaller and smaller pieces. It was kinda like a Paradox of the Heap question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Firesong said: No, Shards are finite. That is more more consistent and supported by the books and Brandon. So, you are wrong there. Vessels are Finite, the Shards they Hold are Infinite. Quote Questioner For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed? Brandon Sanderson The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that. Questioner What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity... Brandon Sanderson So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Edited July 13, 2023 by Quantus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) Just now, Quantus said: Vessels are Finite, the Shards they Hold are Infinite. That was one individual WoB, contradicted by everything else. It feels facetious to bring it up when it goes against everything else he said in WoBs and books alike. Edited July 13, 2023 by Firesong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 Just now, Firesong said: That was one individual WoB, contradicted by everything else Not that I can think of. Do you have an example? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Quantus said: Not that I can think of. Do you have an example? Quote emailanimal From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon... chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture? Brandon: Yes. chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it? Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly. This worries me somewhat because of the following observation. Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second). Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath. Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing. This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing. I can see the following possible explanations to this: Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit). Thoughts? Brandon Sanderson Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy. Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born. uchoo786 So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm? Brandon Sanderson The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak. Quote chasmfriend's son Is there a finite amount of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Yes. chasmfriend's son So is Nightblood consuming it? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Very, very slowly. Quote Questioner Is Stormlight an infinite resource or a finite one? Brandon Sanderson Stormlight is a renewing resource. Quote revorade Is investiture finite? Hemalurgy and a Return's need to consume breath seems to show us that it can be destroyed. If it is finite, is the Cosmere's magic source doomed to the law of entropy? Brandon Sanderson Investiture can not be created or destroyed. It follows it's own version of the laws of Thermodynamics. Joe_____ So what happens to the investiture that is lost when a person is spiked and the spike isn't set in the new person immediately? Does it return to the big pool of investiture in the sky like the power from wheel of time where if its not actively being used it returns to the source? Brandon Sanderson What happens to someone's body when it's not being used by a particular person? The system is built to work like that. Quote Preservation's desire to create sentient life was what eventually broke the stalemate. In order to give mankind awareness and independent thought, Preservation knew that he would have to give up part of himself—his own soul—to dwell within mankind. This would leave him just a tiny bit weaker than his opposite, Ruin. That tiny bit seemed inconsequential, compared with their total vast sums of power. However, over aeons, this tiny flaw would allow Ruin to overcome Preservation, thereby bringing an end to the world. This, then, was their bargain. Preservation got mankind, the only creations that had more Preservation than Ruin in them, rather than a balance. Independent life that could think and feel. In exchange, Ruin was given a promise—and proof—that he could bring an end to all they had created together. It was the pact. And Preservation eventually broke it. Quote The pact between Preservation and Ruin is a thing of gods, and difficult to explain in human terms. Indeed, initially, there was a stalemate between them. On one hand, each knew that only by working together could they create. On the other hand, both knew that they would never have complete satisfaction in what they created. Preservation would not be able to keep things perfect and unchanging, and Ruin would not be able to destroy completely. Ruin, of course, eventually acquired the ability to end the world and gain the satisfaction he wanted. But, then, that wasn't originally part of the bargain. Those are just a few that talk about the finite nature. Quote "To combine powers would change and distort who Odium is. So instead of absorbing others, he destroys them. Since we are all essentially infinite, he needs no more power. Destroying and Splintering the other Shards would leave Odium as the sole god, unchanged and uncorrupted by other influences." This also essentially says it as well essentially infinite implies not being so, but it just being more than you would ever actually need. There is also the manner in which Devotion and Dominion were forced into the Cognitive Realm, but still are confined to a finite space, instead of just spreading to fill the entire Cognitive Realm. I also recall a quote of "Nothing is infinite, not even time" somewhere. Might have been in Secret History, iirc. Yeah, it was definitely there, said by Ruin. If anyone has a digital copy can they try to find that quote? Edited July 13, 2023 by Firesong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 None of these touch on the distinction we are trying to articulate to you, which is that the Shard itself (the big ball of Investiture that mortals can take up and which exists primarily in the Spiritual Realm) is Infinite according to WOB and every aspect fo the stories that touces on the power itself. The mind holding it is still Finite, and cant actually tap/hold/use the entire thing all at once. The amount of Investiture that has made it to the Cognitive and Physical realms (both the pure stuff and what's tied up creating the actual reality) is also Finite. But in the Spiritual Realm where all Space, all Time, and all possible alternate realities all exist simultaneously, there can be found actual Infinity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, Firesong said: No, Shards are finite. That is more more consistent and supported by the books and Brandon. So, you are wrong there. No really: Spoiler Questioner For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed? Brandon Sanderson The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that. Questioner What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity... Brandon Sanderson So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Alex M What's the difference between avatar and Splinter? Brandon Sanderson These are all very weird terms that I'm just using. *mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing. An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do. Brandon Sanderson *realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies* A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Spoiler Questioner With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent? Brandon Sanderson It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in. Questioner Is there anything universal about all of them? Brandon Sanderson They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018) Spoiler Overlord Jebus Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler [...] Huge WoB Brandon Sanderson [...] Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. [...] General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) 8 minutes ago, Firesong said: I know what exactly a Splinter is, I was talking about where exactly you would stop calling a Shard a Shard as you continue to break it up into smaller and smaller pieces. It was kinda like a Paradox of the Heap question. My point was simple - it ends where the Vessel ends. If there is no Vessel, there is no Shard, only Splinters (after some time). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Quantus said: None of these touch on the distinction we are trying to articulate to you, which is that the Shard itself (the big ball of Investiture that mortals can take up and which exists primarily in the Spiritual Realm) is Infinite according to WOB and every aspect fo the stories that touces on the power itself. The mind holding it is still Finite, and cant actually tap/hold/use the entire thing all at once. The amount of Investiture that has made it to the Cognitive and Physical realms (both the pure stuff and what's tied up creating the actual reality) is also Finite. But in the Spiritual Realm where all Space, all Time, and all possible alternate realities all exist simultaneously, there can be found actual Infinity. And I am trying to show you you are wrong to say that there is infinite Investiture, that has been thoroughly debunked by basically everything. The mind is finite, yes, but that doesn't mean that the Shard must be literally infinite. I honestly don't get the interpretation that Shards are infinite in the slightest, it is contradicted so bloody much by Brandon and the books, only like, 1 or 2 WoBs support it being infinite. Investiture is a renewing resource, not an infinite one. There would not be infinite at any singular moment in time. And again, Devotion and Dominion were pushed into the Cognitive Realm *in their entirety*, so, if Shards were infinite, this would cause the entire Cognitive Realm to be a sea of endless plasmatic Investiture. And taking away part of Ruin's Investiture wouldn't have weakened him. Because, that isn't what Brandon means by "they can't access it all", he doesn't mean "there is this specific set of it that they can access, and losing this part of the set makes them weaker" it was "they can only access so much of it at one time". It was a quantity thing, not talking about specific Investiture (I don't even know how to say what I am trying to say, as it isn't the most, dividable of things) @alder24 But you seem to be completely ignoring the other WoBs and the Books in their entirety in your desire to say that Investiture is infinite and thus the entire system of the cosmere is fundamentally broken as none of the limits mean anything anymore. My interpretation is based on looking at all of the books and what they say, and by looking at WoBs that fit with the ideas shared in the books. WoBs are disregarded when they directly contradict the books. As they do here, and I don't get why people are giving so much weight to them despite the contradiction. Like, this just isn't something I am going to budge on. The finite nature of Investiture and the cycle it has with energy and matter is one of the most fascinating parts of the cosmology of the world. It is one of the more unique parts of it, and is the cause behind various different plot points. I would lose a lot of interest in the cosmology and metaphysics if that was taken away. Edit: Sorry for aggression, this is just something I am really passionate about and I am also a very stubborn woman. I have calmed down now, but I am still not budging on this matter. I just want to apologize for being rude. I have temper problems. Edited July 13, 2023 by Firesong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underwater_Worldhopper Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) @Firesong, try not to post twice in a row, back-to-back, as that is technically against site rules. If you have something to add after you've already posted, use the edit option at the bottom of your post to do so. I'll have to agree with Firesong on this one, Investiture does seem to be finite. There's just so much of it that it basically counts as infinite, from the perspective of a sentient creature who couldn't even begin to dream of the sheer quantity of it. It's like if I asked you to try and conceptualize the number 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. You'd see it, nod your head wisely and think "That's big", but you'd have the exact same reaction if I gave you that number but with an additional zero, and the same goes for that number with one less zero. You can decide rationally that one is bigger and the other smaller, but if I presented them to you without the context of the others, there would be no difference in how you react, because it's so big that we can't really quantify it in our minds. It just falls in that vague definition of "Very big" without any meaningful, rememberable difference between numbers of a similar range. It's like the WoB @alder24 quoted says, it's like worrying we'll run out of carbon due to people being born. It's redundant not because we have access to infinite carbon atoms being spontaneously produced and provided for us to use, but rather because human consumption of it is beyond inconsequential to the amount of carbon that exists, even though it's finite. The same goes for Investiture. There are incredibly vast amounts of it, concentrated mostly in the Spiritual Realm, where it presumably returns once utilized. An extremely large amount of Investiture, considered infinite because it won't run out due to it being so expansive in its depth and the fact that the Investiture you use returns to the Spiritual Realm once you're done, so you're not even causing a reduction in the amount that exists in the first place. Calling it infinite is just convenient because it is infinite in practice, and it removes the complication of having to explain the whole finite-but-functionally-infinite asterisk for questions that only touch on the subject. When considered mechanics-wise, it is indeed finite. It isn't infinite in the SR either, by the way, @Quantus. You can find infinity in the Spiritual Realm, but it isn't the Investiture. Rather, as you said, space, time, and all possible realities exist simultaneously due to the Investiture essentially acting like a Black hole and causing extreme, unimaginable amounts of time dilation. The time-bending nature of it causes the future, present, and past to mesh together, which is what allows possibilities to be seen, as each decision that could happen has already and is happening in the Spiritual Realm, and therein lies infinity. Infinite futures branching off of each other into the distance, not an infinite amount of Investiture. If you remove it in a way that doesn't utilize it, like God Metals, then you could theoretically pull the whole Shard out into the Physical Realm, though the sheer amount of Investiture suddenly quantified would probably warp and pull the entire Cosmere in on itself, creating a supermassive black hole (or a Perpendicularity, though at this point they both pretty much act as the same thing). But it is theoretically possible. If you could pull all of Preservation's Investiture not being used (so excluding Investiture in people's souls and such) into a single bead that didn't immediately destroy the entire Cosmere, you'd have basically made all Allomancers (and potentially Feruchemists) impotent, unable to burn or tap/store (in) metals. The same goes for Honor, if you pulled out all of his Investiture not manifesting as a Spren or in someone's soul into a single bead of Tanavastium, you could basically make Highstorms useless, no longer refilling spheres. Not only that, Highstorms as a concept might just fizzle out, losing the magical backing it had to keep blowing or producing crem. It's possible that the Highstorm could have enough backing in real science to continue existing as it is, and maybe the Stormfather himself could charge spheres for a bit with his own Investiture, but he's hardly that Invested, he'd run out eventually, not to mention be damaging himself by tearing chunks of his essence off with every Highstorm. But while that's fun to think about, it's 100%, totally, completely impossible and would never under any circumstances happen. Given the Vessel itself can barely control an insignificant amount of Investiture from its own Shardic essence, it just can't happen. Back to the idea about Shardic cores, I don't think that's how it works. The Shard still exists even if you tore every single piece of the Shard apart, because its Intent still exists in the polarity of the Investiture itself. You could patch it back together, if you knew how. In fact, if you Splinter a Shard into pieces that are strong enough, you could break it down into two Mini-Shards. They don't have to be exact, either. One could hold 40% of the original Shard and the other 60%, or even 30% and 70%, and you'd still end up with two Shards, since you're creating super powerful Splinters, which, having so much Investiture, would gravitate to a specific Intent/Command. Quote Isaac Betzold Could a Shard be split into smaller Intents, like if Honor were alive and then was split into maybe Integrity and Bravery? Brandon Sanderson This is possible. Very plausible. You ask some weird things sometimes, this one is not that weird, this is very plausible. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) The fact that you could end up with two different Shards, without necessarily even breaking them specifically in half, kind of disproves the idea of a single core that you need to control to 'Be' the Shard. Edited July 13, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: @Firesong, try not to post twice in a row, back-to-back, as that is technically against site rules. If you have something to add after you've already posted, use the edit option at the bottom of your post to do so. Would be weird for Bravery to be a Shard, we already have Valor. So not a fan of that example. But that is interesting. And also, I know, I didn't mean to post twice. I usually just edit my own messages. Sorry about that. Edited July 13, 2023 by Firesong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werewolff Studios Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 48 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Just want to highlight your very eloquent response to the practical infinity of Investiture Well said. 4 hours ago, Firesong said: I also believe we have essentially seen these, when we see Sazed pick up Ruin and Preservation and they are basically just balls of essence, I feel these balls are the Cores of the Shards. If this is true, it suggests that a Shard can reduce itself to basically nothing, to where it is basically just a Spren, while everything else is a splinter. Which I find an interesting idea. Though, it could be that the Core contains a minimum amount of Investiture that they cannot excise from themselves without causing irreparable damage. This idea's a tricky one, as @Underwater_Worldhopper also mentioned. You're starting to play with the nature of a Shard's Intent, which is really dense and infuses the Investiture of the entire Shard. That's one of the reasons why different forms of Investiture tend to repel each other, to some degree. Splintering is shaving off some of that power and removing it from the Cognitive Aspect of the Vessel the Shard's tied to, allowing the Investiture to attach itself to a new Cognitive Aspect (Ie Returned) or generate one for itself (ie Spren). Personally, I think the line between full Shard and Splinter is less of direct amount, but more about what Intent is given to the pieces. A 'Shard', by definition, is also technically a Splinter of Adonalsium's Investiture; it's just more practical to think about it as it's own entity due to the nature of it's Intent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted July 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2023 46 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said: Just want to highlight your very eloquent response to the practical infinity of Investiture Well said. This idea's a tricky one, as @Underwater_Worldhopper also mentioned. You're starting to play with the nature of a Shard's Intent, which is really dense and infuses the Investiture of the entire Shard. That's one of the reasons why different forms of Investiture tend to repel each other, to some degree. Splintering is shaving off some of that power and removing it from the Cognitive Aspect of the Vessel the Shard's tied to, allowing the Investiture to attach itself to a new Cognitive Aspect (Ie Returned) or generate one for itself (ie Spren). Personally, I think the line between full Shard and Splinter is less of direct amount, but more about what Intent is given to the pieces. A 'Shard', by definition, is also technically a Splinter of Adonalsium's Investiture; it's just more practical to think about it as it's own entity due to the nature of it's Intent. A bit of a correction on the repelling, we actually see that all Investiture repels each other when in a kinetic form. Like, for instance, Shardplate resists Surgebinding, and Stoneshaping material that is Invested at all gets extremely difficult (and that would basically just be referring to Invested by Honor or Cultivation). So, it is just a general thing. Unrelated, but I do wonder how different Adonalisum can become when remade, like, we know Shards combining makes Intents change, so like, would (Preservation + Ruin) + Autonomy be different from (Preservation + Autonomy) + Ruin, as one is Harmony + Autonomy, the other is a new Intent + Ruin. And this would basically compound over time to make some radically different Intents. Wonder how that works. Also, note, Harmony + Autonomy kinda makes perfect sense. Harmony is about Free Will, essentially. While Autonomy is about Individuality. The combination would make a lot of sense, and we do know Autonomy really wants Scadrial, which basically is Harmony. So... maybe she succeeds, and to do so she might have to just, take Harmony for herself and become a new Shard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werewolff Studios Posted July 14, 2023 Report Share Posted July 14, 2023 5 minutes ago, Firesong said: A bit of a correction on the repelling, we actually see that all Investiture repels each other when in a kinetic form. Like, for instance, Shardplate resists Surgebinding, and Stoneshaping material that is Invested at all gets extremely difficult (and that would basically just be referring to Invested by Honor or Cultivation). So, it is just a general thing. Ah, that's a good point! Probably tied into Identity keyed to the Investiture then too. 9 minutes ago, Firesong said: Unrelated, but I do wonder how different Adonalisum can become when remade, like, we know Shards combining makes Intents change, so like, would (Preservation + Ruin) + Autonomy be different from (Preservation + Autonomy) + Ruin, as one is Harmony + Autonomy, the other is a new Intent + Ruin. And this would basically compound over time to make some radically different Intents. Wonder how that works. Hmm, an interesting thought. It's tricky, because we don't know what Intent Adonalsium had (if they even had one to begin with). Did they even have a 'Vessel' or where they just sentient by themselves? Regarding the shifting Intents for combining Shards, we don't have the greatest example in Harmony, since Sazed's two Intents are imbalanced within him. But I do agree; the order of how you grab the Shards would likely have a different effect on the Vessel and be warped by their own perceptions. Would that effect be resolved if they managed to grab all the Shards? Very hard to say at the moment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlstrawberrySeed Posted September 7, 2023 Report Share Posted September 7, 2023 On 7/13/2023 at 5:12 PM, Firesong said: A bit of a correction on the repelling, we actually see that all Investiture repels each other when in a kinetic form. Like, for instance, Shardplate resists Surgebinding, and Stoneshaping material that is Invested at all gets extremely difficult (and that would basically just be referring to Invested by Honor or Cultivation). So, it is just a general thing. Unrelated, but I do wonder how different Adonalisum can become when remade, like, we know Shards combining makes Intents change, so like, would (Preservation + Ruin) + Autonomy be different from (Preservation + Autonomy) + Ruin, as one is Harmony + Autonomy, the other is a new Intent + Ruin. And this would basically compound over time to make some radically different Intents. Wonder how that works. Also, note, Harmony + Autonomy kinda makes perfect sense. Harmony is about Free Will, essentially. While Autonomy is about Individuality. The combination would make a lot of sense, and we do know Autonomy really wants Scadrial, which basically is Harmony. So... maybe she succeeds, and to do so she might have to just, take Harmony for herself and become a new Shard. On 7/13/2023 at 5:28 PM, Werewolff Studios said: Ah, that's a good point! Probably tied into Identity keyed to the Investiture then too. Hmm, an interesting thought. It's tricky, because we don't know what Intent Adonalsium had (if they even had one to begin with). Did they even have a 'Vessel' or where they just sentient by themselves? Regarding the shifting Intents for combining Shards, we don't have the greatest example in Harmony, since Sazed's two Intents are imbalanced within him. But I do agree; the order of how you grab the Shards would likely have a different effect on the Vessel and be warped by their own perceptions. Would that effect be resolved if they managed to grab all the Shards? Very hard to say at the moment. On the combining shards, We know that P+R should be Creation, in it's most stable form. Aditianally, while Harmony the intent could be pretty stable, Harmony-Sazed is not acting under the Intent of Harmony, but mostly under the intent of Preservation. Do to this, I personally believe that the most important part of a shard combination's most stable state is what the components did while they were separate. The Vessel has an impact, and their actions, perception, and intents are some of the most important (IMO) factors for the "expressed" intent. If all shards were combined, it might not reform into the same this as Ado. Supposedly, all the intents existed equally in Ado, but in the theorizing we can do about Creation (with no actual evidence) has Ruin expressed more than Preservation. So, I think it's unlikely to get another thing Adonalstic in nature, but it might be Adonalstic in other ways. I suspect that the only way to pry out info about this from brandon would ask about if you shattered a shard, and sequestered one of the, say, 5, and the other 4 interacted in different ways, and then you combined all 5 in all 30ish ways consecutively, would the results be the same, and were any of the results the original shard? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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