discuss Experiments for Hoid's Pacifism

[Duxredux he/him]

Basically the title, do we know the extent of Hoid's restrictions on hurting living things? Hoid's Coppermind article notes that he can't harm people and cannot eat anything he believes to be meat, but I'm not sure if that's the full extent. 

Is his restrictions on harming living things only sapient beings - dragons, humans, singers, Sho Del, etc., or does it extend to highly intelligent entities like Ryshadium, Larkin, Sleepless, horses, dolphins etc.?At what point does it stop restricting him or would he be majorly inconvenienced if someone were to release hundreds of thousands of flies into a room he was in and he couldn't even make a step or open his mouth without endangering their fragile bodies? Alternately fill his room with hamster or kittens. Could he move when he knows he will probably kill something accidentally? Yes, there are logical extremes to this progression, but I'm not going there just yet.

He can make a Cognitive Shadow (Kelsier) think they are hurting, but could he harm an Honorspren made corporeal by Ishar before they died? Can he hurt spren in Shadesmar? 

You acquire a Bavadium Hemalurgic spike, one of the ones that is repulsed by an Allomancer burning metals. If you were to tell Hoid that you had setup a box with the spike positioned so that if he were to burn metals it would stab a cat inside (named Schrodinger, because), would that stop him from using Allomancy? Barring a stunt like Duralumin Pulling on the spike which is dumb in so many ways. Would he need to see the cat and the setup of the box to be restricted or if he never saw the cat would he still be free to act? Ignoring Lifesense for a moment (maybe he Awakened something), would he be restricted if he believed the cat was there but you hadn't actually put Schrodinger in the box?

Mostly I'm interested in the room full of flies scenario as just about anyone could set that one up with barely any specialized equipment or abilities.

Thoughts?

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Basically the title, do we know the extent of Hoid's restrictions on hurting living things? Hoid's Coppermind article notes that he can't harm people and cannot eat anything he believes to be meat, but I'm not sure if that's the full extent. 

Is his restrictions on harming living things only sapient beings - dragons, humans, singers, Sho Del, etc., or does it extend to highly intelligent entities like Ryshadium, Larkin, Sleepless, horses, dolphins etc.?At what point does it stop restricting him or would he be majorly inconvenienced if someone were to release hundreds of thousands of flies into a room he was in and he couldn't even make a step or open his mouth without endangering their fragile bodies? Alternately fill his room with hamster or kittens. Could he move when he knows he will probably kill something accidentally? Yes, there are logical extremes to this progression, but I'm not going there just yet.

He can make a Cognitive Shadow (Kelsier) think they are hurting, but could he harm an Honorspren made corporeal by Ishar before they died? Can he hurt spren in Shadesmar? 

You acquire a Bavadium Hemalurgic spike, one of the ones that is repulsed by an Allomancer burning metals. If you were to tell Hoid that you had setup a box with the spike positioned so that if he were to burn metals it would stab a cat inside (named Schrodinger, because), would that stop him from using Allomancy? Barring a stunt like Duralumin Pulling on the spike which is dumb in so many ways. Would he need to see the cat and the setup of the box to be restricted or if he never saw the cat would he still be free to act? Ignoring Lifesense for a moment (maybe he Awakened something), would he be restricted if he believed the cat was there but you hadn't actually put Schrodinger in the box?

Mostly I'm interested in the room full of flies scenario as just about anyone could set that one up with barely any specialized equipment or abilities.

Thoughts?

Sleepless are definitely sentient beings, far smarter and more capable of thought than the Ryshadium and Larkin, definitely. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

9 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Basically the title, do we know the extent of Hoid's restrictions on hurting living things? Hoid's Coppermind article notes that he can't harm people and cannot eat anything he believes to be meat, but I'm not sure if that's the full extent. 

Is his restrictions on harming living things only sapient beings - dragons, humans, singers, Sho Del, etc., or does it extend to highly intelligent entities like Ryshadium, Larkin, Sleepless, horses, dolphins etc.?At what point does it stop restricting him or would he be majorly inconvenienced if someone were to release hundreds of thousands of flies into a room he was in and he couldn't even make a step or open his mouth without endangering their fragile bodies? Alternately fill his room with hamster or kittens. Could he move when he knows he will probably kill something accidentally? Yes, there are logical extremes to this progression, but I'm not going there just yet.

He can make a Cognitive Shadow (Kelsier) think they are hurting, but could he harm an Honorspren made corporeal by Ishar before they died? Can he hurt spren in Shadesmar? 

You acquire a Bavadium Hemalurgic spike, one of the ones that is repulsed by an Allomancer burning metals. If you were to tell Hoid that you had setup a box with the spike positioned so that if he were to burn metals it would stab a cat inside (named Schrodinger, because), would that stop him from using Allomancy? Barring a stunt like Duralumin Pulling on the spike which is dumb in so many ways. Would he need to see the cat and the setup of the box to be restricted or if he never saw the cat would he still be free to act? Ignoring Lifesense for a moment (maybe he Awakened something), would he be restricted if he believed the cat was there but you hadn't actually put Schrodinger in the box?

Mostly I'm interested in the room full of flies scenario as just about anyone could set that one up with barely any specialized equipment or abilities.

Thoughts?

Given that he can't even eat, I think the restriction applies to all living creatures, sentient or sapient. As for the experiments, I think Intent is the deciding factor. If there's a trap ready to kill Shrödinger through a Bavadinium spike if and when Hoid uses Allomancy, it might depend on whether or not he knows that there is a trap and that he'll harm a creature if he burns metal. If he doesn't, Shrödinger dies. If he does, I suspect he couldn't burn metal at all, and Shrödinger will live.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Basically the title, do we know the extent of Hoid's restrictions on hurting living things? Hoid's Coppermind article notes that he can't harm people and cannot eat anything he believes to be meat, but I'm not sure if that's the full extent. 

Is his restrictions on harming living things only sapient beings - dragons, humans, singers, Sho Del, etc., or does it extend to highly intelligent entities like Ryshadium, Larkin, Sleepless, horses, dolphins etc.?

When Brandon talks about people he often means sapient species in general, Kadnra, Singers, Sho Del etc should all count in this. Whether this extends to all living organisms, or all intelligent species is unknown, but because he can't eat meat, it's very likely he can't hurt any living being.

But he can't also hurt himself:

Spoiler

Matrim

Hoid gets his tooth knocked out while in Kholinar. He prompts somebody else to help him with that. Is that because he has issues hurting not only other people but himself?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Matrim

And then he considers healing that at a later point in time. Which magic system does he consider using to heal that?

Brandon Sanderson

A magic system that predates-- predates any of the others.

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

At what point does it stop restricting him or would he be majorly inconvenienced if someone were to release hundreds of thousands of flies into a room he was in and he couldn't even make a step or open his mouth without endangering their fragile bodies?

Oh, right, that might be problematic. What if a fly flies into his mouth?  I need Brandon to answer this question!  

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Alternately fill his room with hamster or kittens. Could he move when he knows he will probably kill something accidentally

 

Nah, that's not a problem. You can move around by dragging your feet on the floor, pushing those cute balls of fluffiness aside.

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

but could he harm an Honorspren made corporeal by Ishar before they died?

Not likely. They have a body now.

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Can he hurt spren in Shadesmar? 

Also not likely. Spren can be hurt and this isn't just their perception like with CS. We saw this happening in OB and RoW.

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

You acquire a Bavadium Hemalurgic spike, one of the ones that is repulsed by an Allomancer burning metals. If you were to tell Hoid that you had setup a box with the spike positioned so that if he were to burn metals it would stab a cat inside (named Schrodinger, because), would that stop him from using Allomancy?

Yes? It matters what he knows. Those questions are really hard to answer, you know that?  

Spoiler

Questioner

Can Hoid eat Soulcast bacon? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He could probably eat lab-grown meat if he knew it was (or magic-grown meat). He probably could. His psychology will be influencing this, right? Which is why I say "probably." But the magic would allow it. 

Billy todd

If somebody lied to him about the nature of the meat, could he eat that? 

Brandon Sanderson

No. Well, okay, if they lied and said it was Soulcast, yes, then he probably could.

Questioner 2

It's based on his perception. 

Brandon Sanderson

It's based on his perception, yeah.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Mostly I'm interested in the room full of flies scenario as just about anyone could set that one up with barely any specialized equipment or abilities.

Really? HOW? 

[Duxredux he/him]

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

11 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Mostly I'm interested in the room full of flies scenario as just about anyone could set that one up with barely any specialized equipment or abilities.

Really? HOW? 

Relatively speaking, compared to the thread on killing Hoid for fun and profit. You don't need aluminum, abilities of a Shard, or a specific Godmetal. You need large rooms (latrines or something similar), finely woven mesh material, and food and water for the flies. Setup a breeding enviroment and use strategically placed mesh to move or contain the flies as needed. I think this should be achieveable on any habitable world we've seen (I'm not counting Braise) at every tech level currently known.Thing is it doesn't have to be flies, if you can find any large flying insect hive or colony and transport it over to him when he's in a small room, put mesh over the exits and windows, that should at least highly inconvenience him. Nab a bee hive by covering it with the mesh, wasp nest, cut out a rotten section of tree filled beetles, etc.. the main question is if his Lifesense would alert him to what you were doing and if he would try to escape.

With this train of thought of filling a room with highly fragile living beings, a Sleepless with specially bred frail hoardlings might give Hoid serious problems. I'm sure he could escape somehow, eventually, but I'm drawing a blank on how he would do it if he were to be constantly blanketed by tiny hoardlings that could constantly rotate out, while the Hoardlings bred for leeching drain him of any Investiture they can. Awakening is probably out as opening his mouth means the hoardlings will swarm in, Aons require movement and hoardlings would probably concentrate on his joints, Lightweaving probably won't distract the Hoardlings and he can't directly damage them, Soulcasting might be possible but I'm not surr what or he would do it (and how much time he has before getting leeched of any Stormlight), same with potentially making a perpendicularity with Stormlight, Allomancy depends on metal placement in the room but even then it would be really tricky and I'm not sure how emotional Allomancy or time bubbles would disrupt the hoardlings Connection to the Sleepless... anything I'm missing?

[alder24]

49 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Relatively speaking, compared to the thread on killing Hoid for fun and profit. You don't need aluminum, abilities of a Shard, or a specific Godmetal. You need large rooms (latrines or something similar), finely woven mesh material, and food and water for the flies.

I think it's easier to get aluminum than make a room full of bugs. And more sane.

51 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Thing is it doesn't have to be flies, if you can find any large flying insect hive or colony and transport it over to him when he's in a small room, put mesh over the exits and windows, that should at least highly inconvenience him. Nab a bee hive by covering it with the mesh, wasp nest, cut out a rotten section of tree filled beetles, etc..

You would need ants - I've never seen a bee or wasp colony large enough to cover the entire room - and I don't want to see if there is one! Ants will soon eat their way out too (even through concrete). If you know this much about Hoid it's far easier to go to Scadrial and buy a lot of aluminum, than doing this thing. Or just spread rumors you want to kill Hoid and Kelsier would invite you to Ghostbloods and give aluminum for free.

48 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I think this should be achieveable on any habitable world we've seen (I'm not counting Braise) at every tech level currently known.

Braise isn't habitable at all, and I don't remember if Roshar has normal Earth-sized bugs.

37 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

With this train of thought of filling a room with highly fragile living beings, a Sleepless with specially bred frail hoardlings might give Hoid serious problems.

Do you want just a bunch of bugs or Sleepless, because there is a huge difference between those two?

37 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I'm sure he could escape somehow, eventually, but I'm drawing a blank on how he would do it if he were to be constantly blanketed by tiny hoardlings that could constantly rotate out, while the Hoardlings bred for leeching drain him of any Investiture they can. Awakening is probably out as opening his mouth means the hoardlings will swarm in, Aons require movement and hoardlings would probably concentrate on his joints, Lightweaving probably won't distract the Hoardlings and he can't directly damage them, Soulcasting might be possible but I'm not surr what or he would do it (and how much time he has before getting leeched of any Stormlight), same with potentially making a perpendicularity with Stormlight, Allomancy depends on metal placement in the room but even then it would be really tricky and I'm not sure how emotional Allomancy or time bubbles would disrupt the hoardlings Connection to the Sleepless... anything I'm missing?

He can move very gently, scoop bugs with his hand to place his feet and coins in specific places and then just A-steel out of there. If that's a Sleepless he can use emotional Allomancy which would work very well (to make them fear him, possibly with duralumin and the whole room would clear up within seconds). Lightweaving would work quite well too - blinding light or cover the entire room in darkness (bees drop to the ground when dark), or create a bright spot on one side of the room to attract bugs there. Soulcast meat or another tasty food. If Hoid can already make Soulcasted illusions, then he can make illusions of walls Soulcasted into physical things and set up a huge labyrinth with a tasty meat in the very center of it, attracting all of the bugs inside and sealing it off. He can Awaken clothes to gently push bugs out of his way.

Or just soulcast walls of this room into smoke... The simplest way to get out is to make the room disappear.

And having Breaths makes dogs and animals friendly to the Awakener, Hoid with his Breaths might be just fine as bugs would simply avoid him and give him a bit of space - and not fly into his mouth.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Hoid is a grandmaster of lightweaving..even before his bond to Design. In your insect scenario, with Rosharan lightweaving..Hoid would simply create whatever attractants needed to clear a path to leave, and he would most likely leave the door open for the bugs on his way out.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

I forget that he can Soulcast, I don't think he ever uses it on screen.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I forget that he can Soulcast, I don't think he ever uses it on screen.

Have you read SP3? (spoilers)

Spoiler

That is likely how he created Design's "fleshbag" (or at least a part) - similar to how Shallan melded the Surge of Transformation into her Surge of Illumination at the Battle of Thaylen Field to give them enough "substance" to keep Amaram's soldiers distracted (and effects like splashing blood and grunting noises). 

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

55 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Have you read SP3? (spoilers)

  Hide contents

That is likely how he created Design's "fleshbag" (or at least a part) - similar to how Shallan melded the Surge of Transformation into her Surge of Illumination at the Battle of Thaylen Field to give them enough "substance" to keep Amaram's soldiers distracted (and effects like splashing blood and grunting noises). 

 

This is yet another great example of me reading something and thinking, "I really wonder how he did that? O well, I'll keep reading and definitely remember to think about it later (even though I always forget)" 

I still have no idea how one would achieve such a thing through soulcasting..anyway don't mind me..carry on.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Have you read SP3? (spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

That is likely how he created Design's "fleshbag" (or at least a part) - similar to how Shallan melded the Surge of Transformation into her Surge of Illumination at the Battle of Thaylen Field to give them enough "substance" to keep Amaram's soldiers distracted (and effects like splashing blood and grunting noises). 

 

I have. What Shallan does at the Battle of Thaylen Field, Jasnah attributes to concentrated Stormlight having mass. As for the grunting and blood, those are part of Illumination, they don't have anything to do with Soulcasting.

Yumi and the Nightmare Painter (SP3) Spoilers:

Spoiler

What Hoid does to Design is called "a wireframe Lightweaving with force projections", which isn't explicitly stated as being Soulcasting, despite him calling Lightweaving out specifically. So far as I can tell, it's just a Lightweaving with manipulatable joints that Design can control, with forces being applied against anything that comes in contact with her body to approximate a physical form.