Did Autonomy cause the Reod?

[ScarecrowBoat716]

I'm about 3/4 of the way done with The Lost Metal, just at the part where Shai-I has transformed herself into an Elantrian. I prefer reading Brandon's books on a bit of a delay because it gives the cosmere-aware-internet time to catch up and have all the juicy little relevant Cosmere details and references posted that I can look up while I read.

Anyways, based on some Sel-related Coppermind wikis I'd read while making my way through The Lost Metal I developed a theory that Jaddeth on Sel was likely an avatar of Autonomy. A few minutes ago I saw a WoB where he all but confirmed this to a reader who asked him. After patting myself on the back for making this connection before reading it online, I've taken my theory a step further - is it possible, even likely, that Autonomy in its avatar of Jaddeth caused the earthquake that created the Reod? This is a more specific theory I have not seen posted elsewhere, but apologies if I missed it.

I have several pieces of evidence for my theory:

1) A WoB states that the earthquake which caused the Reod was not natural. It seems implied that the earthquake was purposefully caused. Whatever caused it must have had great knowledge of the geographical origin of Elantrian magic and great ability & control to create a very specific rift in a very specific region of the geography. A Shard being the cause is the obvious conclusion, and we know Odium had no influence on Sel at that point in the timeline.

2) On Sel, followers of Jaddeth (the Shu-Dereth) believe they must convert the whole world to their religion in order for their God to return. The Elantrians of course will never be converted. It makes sense that Jaddeth/Autonomy would therefore want to try and wipe them out or at least incapacitate them to further the goals of the Shu-Dereth.

3) It is said that Jaddeth lives underground and "cares for rocks under the earth." What better entity to cause an earthquake?

Thoughts?

[JustQuestin2004]

If Jaddeth/Autonomy did cause he Earthquake and made the Elantrians near-powerless bald zombies, then why did they not send in their Dahkor Monks to slaughter everyone right after it instead of waiting 10 whole years?

[ScarecrowBoat716]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:42 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

If Jaddeth/Autonomy did cause he Earthquake and made the Elantrians near-powerless bald zombies, then why did they not send in their Dahkor Monks to slaughter everyone right after it instead of waiting 10 whole years?

Admittedly it's been a long time since I read Elantris. Why did they wait 10 years in the book? Whether caused by Autonomy or not it wouldn't have changed their timeline, right?

Edited July 12, 2023 by ScarecrowBoat716

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

36 minutes ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

Admittedly it's been a long time since I ready Elantris. Why did they wait 10 years in the book? Whether caused by Autonomy or not it wouldn't have changed their timeline, right?

I think it just wasn't that high on their priority list. Originally they may have been afraid that the Reod was contagious, but by the time Raoden gets picked by the Shaod, Wyrn sends a Gyorn to Duladel before he does Arelon, so I can't think of why they'd wait so long unless they were just that afraid of the Elantrians.

[JustQuestin2004]

35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think it just wasn't that high on their priority list. Originally they may have been afraid that the Reod was contagious, but by the time Raoden gets picked by the Shaod, Wyrn sends a Gyorn to Duladel before he does Arelon, so I can't think of why they'd wait so long unless they were just that afraid of the Elantrians.

Considering just how OP AonDor is meant to be and how Elantrians are fricken immortal. Yeah,I'd be pretty cautious too.

But if Wyrn is supposedly the only one who can worship Jaddeth, thus perhaps Autonomy's main pawn on Sel, then why wouldn't Autonomy just tell Wyrn "Hey, those stupidly OP immortal demi-gods over yonder are totally helpless now, get em".

Unless they truly weren't that high on their to-do list. Since Elantrians have even less range on their powers than most other Selish Arts do. Thus being a mostly contained issue. With the Reod being their first time of weakness probably in centuries.

That is until, Raoden discovered how AonDor actually works, which could result in an 'Investiture Revolution'? With new discoveries being found that could help them use AonDor in other regions? Like studying the magic symbols of other Selish Arts perhaps.

Thus if Jaddeth/Autonomy really did cause the Reod, then perhaps Autonomy has just shot herself in the foot big time?

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

 

39 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

That is until, Raoden discovered how AonDor actually works, which could result in an 'Investiture Revolution'? With new discoveries being found that could help them use AonDor in other regions? Like studying the magic symbols of other Selish Arts perhaps.

Pre-Reod Elantrians knew how and why AonDor worked.

 

[MistbornMathematician]

5 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

But if Wyrn is supposedly the only one who can worship Jaddeth, thus perhaps Autonomy's main pawn on Sel, then why wouldn't Autonomy just tell Wyrn "Hey, those stupidly OP immortal demi-gods over yonder are totally helpless now, get em".

That would be my issue as well. Autonomy doesn't seem the type to sit back and do nothing. Besides, instructing the monks to burn the Elantrians doesn't make sense either if you know how Elantrians actually work -- since there's a limited number of Elantrians that can exist at any one given time, why burn them when you can render them all comatose forever and thus end the Elantrian threat more-or-less permanently? 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

3 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said:

That would be my issue as well. Autonomy doesn't seem the type to sit back and do nothing. Besides, instructing the monks to burn the Elantrians doesn't make sense either if you know how Elantrians actually work -- since there's a limited number of Elantrians that can exist at any one given time, why burn them when you can render them all comatose forever and thus end the Elantrian threat more-or-less permanently? 

because you'd erase any surviving old ones who actually have the knowledge and experience of making AonDor work. If it wasn't for Riino, Raoden and the gang wouldn't know about the Perpendicularity, and that was while he was Hoed. Imagine how much quicker the problem could have been solved if there was a lucid original Elantrian who knew that Aons were based on geography. The Reod could have been solved as soon as Raoden figured out a way to leave the city. If Sarene hadn't happened to say what she said about Aons being based on the shape of Arelon, Raoden would have never figured it out. If she did but Raoden had managed to stave off becoming Hoed long enough, Elantris would have still fallen, because Fjordell soldiers would have burned him alive. It was a precautionary move to ensure that the exact thing that ended up happening didn't happen.

[MistbornMathematician]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

because you'd erase any surviving old ones who actually have the knowledge and experience of making AonDor work. 

It still seems like, if you were a shard with implicit understanding of Elantrians and the mechanics behind their "creation", it would be greatly preferable to have zero Elantrians which can act (and therefore restore Elantris) then have to capture and incapacitate an entirely new generation of Elantrians. I do agree, though, that the idea of "burn all the old ones, capture and Heod-ify the new ones until they stop showing up" covers for the weakness of an old Elantrian being able to articulate where the Perpendicularity was, but if Autonomy was worried about old Elantrians sharing their knowledge, why not purge Elantris as soon as possible to prevent that from being a possibility at all? Sure, it would (and did) take a remarkable coincidence for the Fjordell plot to fail, but its occurrence proves that it was a very real possibility. Autonomy's been pretty hands-on and aggressive when it comes to taking over planets, so the very delayed timing of the Fjordell purge doesn't line up with what we've seen of her so far, along with the lack of Cosmere-awareness of the Fjordell monks as a whole compared to the Set. 

If we're looking for unusual culprits of the Reod, you'd probably be better off conjecturing about Hoid. If I wanted to be Elantrian, and I knew that as Elantrians died they were replaced by people from the surrounding area, a plot to kill a whole bunch of them (and keep killing them more-or-less indefinitely) while remaining close by sounds pretty good. Doubly so when the system is cracked wide open and so could be more random than usual. I suppose it would also explain why he left the moment the Reod was reversed, though the question of how exactly he'd create the earthquake in the first place places the theory firmly in the "exceptionally unlikely" category. 

[JustQuestin2004]

Wasn't their plan to just kill all the Aonic people? No more Aonic people means no more potential Elantrians right? So they wouldn't have to contain them nor watch out for new ones.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said:

It still seems like, if you were a shard with implicit understanding of Elantrians and the mechanics behind their "creation", it would be greatly preferable to have zero Elantrians which can act (and therefore restore Elantris) then have to capture and incapacitate an entirely new generation of Elantrians. I do agree, though, that the idea of "burn all the old ones, capture and Heod-ify the new ones until they stop showing up" covers for the weakness of an old Elantrian being able to articulate where the Perpendicularity was, but if Autonomy was worried about old Elantrians sharing their knowledge, why not purge Elantris as soon as possible to prevent that from being a possibility at all? Sure, it would (and did) take a remarkable coincidence for the Fjordell plot to fail, but its occurrence proves that it was a very real possibility.

Divide and conquer.

Jaddeth and Fjordell want to unite Sel under one banner and one religion. Inviding Arelon just as the disastrous earthquake had happened, and Elantris felt would produce the very opposite reaction Fjordell wanted - it would unite Arelon and strengthen their faith in Domi, making them protect fallen Elantiran instead. That's why waiting is better, as people of Arelon could witness decline of Elantris and Elantrians themself, treating them as outcasts and disease. They divided themself making it much easier for Jaddeth’s agents to aim their fear and hatred towards Reod Elantrians, using them as tools to destroy Elantris for good. And ultimately converting Arelon to Jaddeth. While it wasn't the main goal, converting them was still desirable. Moreover Hrathen's actions were more or less a cover up for Dilaf to sneak with Dakhor monks unnoticeable into Elantris - doing this early would expose them fully to Arelon making it just much harder to accomplish.

To add more, there is mention in Elantris annotations that Fjordell gained access to the Dor quite recently - Fjordell might not be ready to launch a full scale invasion at Arelon right when the earthquake had happened. Also in the Coppermind it's stated that Fjorden were busy with conquering other nation, starting a second front is just a bad idea:

Quote

After the Reod and the subsequent fall of Elantris, Fjorden started pushing the boundaries of its influence again, this time instigating the collapse of the Duladel Republic. ^[6] This was successful, albeit bloody, and after Duladel's fall, Fjorden once more set its sights on Arelon, as well as their ally, Teod.^[10]

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Loose Threads

You'll notice, therefore, that I pile on the lose threads here. The most important one, of course, is the concept that Fjorden has gained access to the Dor (presumably recently.) The Dakhor are a newer development–Wyrn was just getting ready to use them against Elantris when the city fell on its own. (Dilaf wasn't the only Dakhor plant inside Arelon. But, those are stories for another time.) Anyway, I think I gave myself plenty of sequel room here. There are the questions about the Dor, about Fjorden, and about the seons.

That said, I can't honestly promise that I'll do an Elantris sequel. When I was writing during this period of my life (some seven years ago now), I was trying to create as many first books as possible. I was sending them all off to publishers, trying to get someone to bite on one of them so I could start a series. However, since I was a nobody, I had to write each book as a stand-alone as well. Publishers, I was told, like to get books from new authors that could stand alone or launch into a series. That way, they’re not committing to anything drastic, but can monopolize on popularity if it comes.

Elantris turned out to be one of the best stand-alones I did. I kind of like how it doesn't really need anything more to make it feel complete. And, I've got so many stories that I want to tell, I don't know that I'll be able to get back to this one. I guess it will depend upon how well Elantris sells, and whether or not Tor pushes me toward writing more books in this world.

Anyway, I've got plenty of things I could talk about if I do come back.

Elantris Annotations (May 19, 2006)

 

7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said:

Autonomy's been pretty hands-on and aggressive when it comes to taking over planets, so the very delayed timing of the Fjordell purge doesn't line up with what we've seen of her so far, along with the lack of Cosmere-awareness of the Fjordell monks as a whole compared to the Set. 

Really? TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

 

She waited 6 years for Set to develop a nuke despite the fact that she wanted to destroy Scadrial right after BoM events. She is patient and could wait a few more years for events in Elantris to develop more in her favor.

 

 

@ScarecrowBoat716 good job on this theory. I think it's very plausible that it was caused by Jaddeth and Autonomy was involved in this. After all, we saw her agents use a similar trick on Scadrial in SoS - Paalm destroyed a dam which caused massive flooding, raising food pieces in Elendel, destabilizing the city further, which almost led to another revolution, this time aimed against Harmony.

[ScarecrowBoat716]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Divide and conquer.

Jaddeth and Fjordell want to unite Sel under one banner and one religion. Inviding Arelon just as the disastrous earthquake had happened, and Elantris felt would produce the very opposite reaction Fjordell wanted - it would unite Arelon and strengthen their faith in Domi, making them protect fallen Elantiran instead. That's why waiting is better, as people of Arelon could witness decline of Elantris and Elantrians themself, treating them as outcasts and disease. They divided themself making it much easier for Jaddeth’s agents to aim their fear and hatred towards Reod Elantrians, using them as tools to destroy Elantris for good. And ultimately converting Arelon to Jaddeth. While it wasn't the main goal, converting them was still desirable. Moreover Hrathen's actions were more or less a cover up for Dilaf to sneak with Dakhor monks unnoticeable into Elantris - doing this early would expose them fully to Arelon making it just much harder to accomplish.

To add more, there is mention in Elantris annotations that Fjordell gained access to the Dor quite recently - Fjordell might not be ready to launch a full scale invasion at Arelon right when the earthquake had happened. Also in the Coppermind it's stated that Fjorden were busy with conquering other nation, starting a second front is just a bad idea:

 

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Loose Threads

You'll notice, therefore, that I pile on the lose threads here. The most important one, of course, is the concept that Fjorden has gained access to the Dor (presumably recently.) The Dakhor are a newer development–Wyrn was just getting ready to use them against Elantris when the city fell on its own. (Dilaf wasn't the only Dakhor plant inside Arelon. But, those are stories for another time.) Anyway, I think I gave myself plenty of sequel room here. There are the questions about the Dor, about Fjorden, and about the seons.

That said, I can't honestly promise that I'll do an Elantris sequel. When I was writing during this period of my life (some seven years ago now), I was trying to create as many first books as possible. I was sending them all off to publishers, trying to get someone to bite on one of them so I could start a series. However, since I was a nobody, I had to write each book as a stand-alone as well. Publishers, I was told, like to get books from new authors that could stand alone or launch into a series. That way, they’re not committing to anything drastic, but can monopolize on popularity if it comes.

Elantris turned out to be one of the best stand-alones I did. I kind of like how it doesn't really need anything more to make it feel complete. And, I've got so many stories that I want to tell, I don't know that I'll be able to get back to this one. I guess it will depend upon how well Elantris sells, and whether or not Tor pushes me toward writing more books in this world.

Anyway, I've got plenty of things I could talk about if I do come back.

Elantris Annotations (May 19, 2006)

 

Really? TLM spoilers:

  Hide contents

 

She waited 6 years for Set to develop a nuke despite the fact that she wanted to destroy Scadrial right after BoM events. She is patient and could wait a few more years for events in Elantris to develop more in her favor.

 

 

@ScarecrowBoat716 good job on this theory. I think it's very plausible that it was caused by Jaddeth and Autonomy was involved in this. After all, we saw her agents use a similar trick on Scadrial in SoS - Paalm destroyed a dam which caused massive flooding, raising food pieces in Elendel, destabilizing the city further, which almost led to another revolution, this time aimed against Harmony.

Thank you for adding to the theory in evidenced ways! Excellent detail here.

[MistbornMathematician]

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Divide and conquer.

Jaddeth and Fjordell want to unite Sel under one banner and one religion. Inviding Arelon just as the disastrous earthquake had happened, and Elantris felt would produce the very opposite reaction Fjordell wanted - it would unite Arelon and strengthen their faith in Domi, making them protect fallen Elantiran instead. That's why waiting is better, as people of Arelon could witness decline of Elantris and Elantrians themself, treating them as outcasts and disease. They divided themself making it much easier for Jaddeth’s agents to aim their fear and hatred towards Reod Elantrians, using them as tools to destroy Elantris for good. And ultimately converting Arelon to Jaddeth. While it wasn't the main goal, converting them was still desirable. Moreover Hrathen's actions were more or less a cover up for Dilaf to sneak with Dakhor monks unnoticeable into Elantris - doing this early would expose them fully to Arelon making it just much harder to accomplish.

To add more, there is mention in Elantris annotations that Fjordell gained access to the Dor quite recently - Fjordell might not be ready to launch a full scale invasion at Arelon right when the earthquake had happened. Also in the Coppermind it's stated that Fjorden were busy with conquering other nation, starting a second front is just a bad idea:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Loose Threads

You'll notice, therefore, that I pile on the lose threads here. The most important one, of course, is the concept that Fjorden has gained access to the Dor (presumably recently.) The Dakhor are a newer development–Wyrn was just getting ready to use them against Elantris when the city fell on its own. (Dilaf wasn't the only Dakhor plant inside Arelon. But, those are stories for another time.) Anyway, I think I gave myself plenty of sequel room here. There are the questions about the Dor, about Fjorden, and about the seons.

That said, I can't honestly promise that I'll do an Elantris sequel. When I was writing during this period of my life (some seven years ago now), I was trying to create as many first books as possible. I was sending them all off to publishers, trying to get someone to bite on one of them so I could start a series. However, since I was a nobody, I had to write each book as a stand-alone as well. Publishers, I was told, like to get books from new authors that could stand alone or launch into a series. That way, they’re not committing to anything drastic, but can monopolize on popularity if it comes.

Elantris turned out to be one of the best stand-alones I did. I kind of like how it doesn't really need anything more to make it feel complete. And, I've got so many stories that I want to tell, I don't know that I'll be able to get back to this one. I guess it will depend upon how well Elantris sells, and whether or not Tor pushes me toward writing more books in this world.

Anyway, I've got plenty of things I could talk about if I do come back.

Elantris Annotations (May 19, 2006)

 

Really? TLM spoilers:

That's actually what I was thinking of in terms of how her servants rarely waste time -- when we see Telsin's PoV, we see that she knows the plan, and the tech necessary, and also the time that it would take to achieve it, and that it would take too long. The Set has been working towards this technology for those six years, and the only reason they moved out when they did (before they were properly ready) is because Harmony and Wax pushed them into desperation. If Wyrn is an avatar of Autonomy, then he likely has the same sort of blessing/enlightenment that Telsin had, and that would give him the ability to know what Autonomy specifically wants him to do. Since he was already preparing the assault of Elantris, he had the means via the Dakhor monks when the Reod happened, and since the city was being sacked and its inhabitants slaughtered, it would've been the perfect time to completely eradicate the one remaining threat. If there was a shard advising him, then it stands to reason that the shard would urge him to kick them while they're down, while if there was no shard (or at least no living one), they might think Elantris has fallen forever and thus isn't a high-priority target.

Besides, there is this quote:

 

Spoiler

 

Viper (paraphrased)

Wyrn can see into the future... is he a follower of Dominion or of Odium? Cause Dominion is [Splintered], so...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Dominion.

A Memory of Light Milford Signing (Feb. 16, 2013)

 

It's very possible that Wyrn is some kind of Sliver of Dominion, which would explain both his power and his motivations. 

 

[ScarecrowBoat716]

3 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said:

If Wyrn is an avatar of Autonomy, then he likely has the same sort of blessing/enlightenment that Telsin had, and that would give him the ability to know what Autonomy specifically wants him to do.

Wyrn isn't the avatar in my theory; Jaddeth is. Wyrn is just the head of the Shu-Dereth. From my memory it is never made clear that he has any real communication with Jaddeth, right? It's just that followers of Shu-Dereth believe Wyrn speaks for him. So he isn't like Telsin at all. He's never held the will of a Shard like she has.

Jaddeth is supposedly trapped(?) underground, unable to return unless the whole planet is converted. If he is indeed an avatar of Autonomy as Brandon heavily implied recently, there are as of yet unanswered questions as to why he is stuck underground. But he would not have a direct influence on how Fjorden chose to act in response to the Reod. He could only cause the earthquake and wait, hopeful that it was enough for Elantris to eventually fall.

Edited July 12, 2023 by ScarecrowBoat716

[MistbornMathematician]

1 hour ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

Wyrn isn't the avatar in my theory; Jaddeth is.

Ah, my apologies then -- I severely misunderstood you. That all definitely checks out.

Edited July 12, 2023 by MistbornMathematician
typo

[ScarecrowBoat716]

9 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said:

Ah, my apologies then -- I severely misunderstood you. That all definitely checks out.

No apology needed, thank you for throwing your arguments out there! Having a devil's advocate pointing at potential flaws in a theory is the best way to strengthen that theory.

Edited July 12, 2023 by ScarecrowBoat716

[Isilel]

Having just re-read Elantris I can't help but wonder why Wyrn was able to specifically foresee Hrathen's betrayal and send an assassin provided with the exact place and time to find him in the future... but couldn't do the same to the other 2 protagonists. Does it have something to do with Connection? But if so, why not take Hrathen out earlier?

And the other thing is - Elantris continues to be extremely vulnerable. If Autonomy had something to do with the earthquake and wants Elantrians to be eradicated rather than brought under her control, shouldn't she be able to change landscape in some other ways and cause as many Reods as it takes for the Fjordells to genocide Aonic people? Like, divert rivers via powerful explosives, for instance. 

 

[ScarecrowBoat716]

33 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Having just re-read Elantris I can't help but wonder why Wyrn was able to specifically foresee Hrathen's betrayal and send an assassin provided with the exact place and time to find him in the future... but couldn't do the same to the other 2 protagonists. Does it have something to do with Connection? But if so, why not take Hrathen out earlier?

And the other thing is - Elantris continues to be extremely vulnerable. If Autonomy had something to do with the earthquake and wants Elantrians to be eradicated rather than brought under her control, shouldn't she be able to change landscape in some other ways and cause as many Reods as it takes for the Fjordells to genocide Aonic people? Like, divert rivers via powerful explosives, for instance. 

 

Shards can't do anything they want to just like that. If it was that easy, Odium would have destroyed the Cosmere millenia ago. Anyways we know from TLM that Autonomy wants people to prove themselves. She wouldn't give her followers an easy route to taking over the planet just like that. She didn't give the Set all the answers and all the technology. She let them try and fail on their own.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

And the other thing is - Elantris continues to be extremely vulnerable. If Autonomy had something to do with the earthquake and wants Elantrians to be eradicated rather than brought under her control, shouldn't she be able to change landscape in some other ways and cause as many Reods as it takes for the Fjordells to genocide Aonic people? Like, divert rivers via powerful explosives, for instance. 

Yes, that's a good idea. If Jaddeth really made the earthquake, he should do it below the sea - which would cause a massive tsunami, changing the shape of the entire shoreline, at least for some time. Or building a dam on a river wouldn't be that hard to do. There are many ways to accomplish that. But likely Jaddeth can't do so much at once, there might be a grain of truth to the whole waiting for Sel to be united and so on.

[Isilel]

4 hours ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

 She wouldn't give her followers an easy route to taking over the planet just like that. She didn't give the Set all the answers and all the technology. 

She gave the Set a significant amount of technical information not otherwise available on (their part of?) the planet. Telling the Derethi what they need to do to cause another Reod would track. Providing some explosives ditto. She did give the Set her god-metal, after all.

Unless, maybe, she isn't  as dead-set on destroying Elantris once and for all as Dilaf and the Wyrn were. Perhaps she'd prefer to control it, which given it's apparent vulnerability, should be doable.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Or building a dam on a river wouldn't be that hard to do. 

 

For that matter, what happens if someone erases Raoden's line on the ground? New Elantris looks very fragile to me, unless there is something that I am not taking  into account. 

As to the "whole world" needing  to be converted for Jaddeth to come, their definition is already very idiosyncratic. Looking at the map, there are landmasses very close to Fjordell  that apparently don't count? Not to mention the Rose Empire and, presumably, a lot more if Sel has got more than one continent. There is a WoB that they'll eventually decide that Arelon and Teod don't count either and they have already converted all the world that matters.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Isilel said:

For that matter, what happens if someone erases Raoden's line on the ground? New Elantris looks very fragile to me, unless there is something that I am not taking  into account. 

I haven't read Elantris in a while but I think they can't just do it because now it's an Aon conducting investiture, they can't just erase this line.

25 minutes ago, Isilel said:

As to the "whole world" needing  to be converted for Jaddeth to come, their definition is already very idiosyncratic. Looking at the map, there are landmasses very close to Fjordell  that apparently don't count? Not to mention the Rose Empire and, presumably, a lot more if Sel has got more than one continent. There is a WoB that they'll eventually decide that Arelon and Teod don't count either and they have already converted all the world that matters.

I said a grain of truth not whole bag of it  

[Nydus]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:42 PM, Isilel said:

Having just re-read Elantris I can't help but wonder why Wyrn was able to specifically foresee Hrathen's betrayal and send an assassin provided with the exact place and time to find him in the future... but couldn't do the same to the other 2 protagonists. Does it have something to do with Connection? But if so, why not take Hrathen out earlier?

I speculate that Wyrn might have been connected to Hrathen this way via an aspect of the hroden-odiv bond. Dhakor monks seem to be able to draw upon the lives of their subordinates in order to power their magical effects, so perhaps a hroden-odiv bond permits all hroden of a certain mastery to know the whereabouts of their odivs. Then again, this could just be an ability unique to Wyrn as the person positioned in the role near the very top of the heirarchy -- the pope of Shu-Dereth, as it were. Since Ryoden and Sarene are not connected to the hierarchy of Shu-Dereth (and therefore not odiv to anyone, including Wyrn), Wyrn could not be bonded to them in this way, assuming the hroden-odiv bond has the potential to provide a hroden with such knowledge and/or control over their odivs.

Such thoughts are merely speculation, but such an effect like this through the hroden-odiv bond would fit thematically with Dominion, which Shu-Dereth (and, by extension, the Dhakor monasteries?) seems to reflect very keenly.

Shu-Dereth is the ultimate pyramid scheme, magically and socially.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Nydus
adding more information

[+Bzhydack]

On 10.07.2023 at 1:42 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

If Jaddeth/Autonomy did cause he Earthquake and made the Elantrians near-powerless bald zombies, then why did they not send in their Dahkor Monks to slaughter everyone right after it instead of waiting 10 whole years?

There are some explanations:

1. Jaddeth didnt know how exactly this earthquake will work. He knows it will desrupt Elantrian magic, but didnt know HOW MUCH. So this mean he did not have full controll over it - can cause some disaster, but cant controll it further.

2. They wanted to, but something disrupted them. There is so many thinks what is outside Shard's influence, let alone just Avatar. This could be anything, some raiders, some heretic uprising, province uprising, other empire (Rose Empire maybe?).

3. They still were not strong enough to strike Arelon. Maybe something that strong like causing earthquake on the other side of continent can be done only in specific moment by Jaddeth, maybe it needet some concentration of Investiture like Autonomy Perpendicularity on Scadrial, but with some Selish influence - maybe other Shardpool on Sel is accesable only in specific time? So Jaddeth caused earthquake, and then waited until Arelon will decline and Shu-Dereth rise.

[bmcclure7]

On 7/10/2023 at 0:33 AM, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

I'm about 3/4 of the way done with The Lost Metal, just at the part where Shai-I has transformed herself into an Elantrian. I prefer reading Brandon's books on a bit of a delay because it gives the cosmere-aware-internet time to catch up and have all the juicy little relevant Cosmere details and references posted that I can look up while I read.

Anyways, based on some Sel-related Coppermind wikis I'd read while making my way through The Lost Metal I developed a theory that Jaddeth on Sel was likely an avatar of Autonomy. A few minutes ago I saw a WoB where he all but confirmed this to a reader who asked him. After patting myself on the back for making this connection before reading it online, I've taken my theory a step further - is it possible, even likely, that Autonomy in its avatar of Jaddeth caused the earthquake that created the Reod? This is a more specific theory I have not seen posted elsewhere, but apologies if I missed it.

I have several pieces of evidence for my theory:

1) A WoB states that the earthquake which caused the Reod was not natural. It seems implied that the earthquake was purposefully caused. Whatever caused it must have had great knowledge of the geographical origin of Elantrian magic and great ability & control to create a very specific rift in a very specific region of the geography. A Shard being the cause is the obvious conclusion, and we know Odium had no influence on Sel at that point in the timeline.

2) On Sel, followers of Jaddeth (the Shu-Dereth) believe they must convert the whole world to their religion in order for their God to return. The Elantrians of course will never be converted. It makes sense that Jaddeth/Autonomy would therefore want to try and wipe them out or at least incapacitate them to further the goals of the Shu-Dereth.

3) It is said that Jaddeth lives underground and "cares for rocks under the earth." What better entity to cause an earthquake?

Thoughts?

What wob? Jaddeth is aon door awackning 

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

What wob?

Those WoBs:

Spoiler

strican

In The Lost Metal, it mentions Autonomy having avatars in other worlds. In Shu-Dereth on Sel, Jaddeth speaks directly to Wyrn, who then propagates his will down the hierarchy-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. That sounds similar to the philosophy used in the Set, but replacing Jaddeth with Trell. Is Jaddeth an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Mi'chelle Walker

Was the Reod natural?

Brandon Sanderson

The Reod natural? *laughs*

Mi'chelle Walker

Here’s the thing, you’ve answered this question for us already, we just need it on audio.

Josh Walker

It wasn’t the Reod that was the question it was was the earthquake natural?

Mi'chelle Walker

No, Eric’s [Chaos] asking if the Reod was natural.

Josh Walker

To heck with Eric, we don’t care about him.

Mi'chelle Walker

You’ve told us that the earthquake was not caused by natural events.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, but it’s a complicated question because the earthquake was not caused by natural, but the Reod was a natural effect of the earthquake, then... does that make sense? So the Reod is natural, a natural result of... does that make sense? That’s why it was a tricky question.

Mi'chelle Walker

But the earthquake was not natural.

Brandon Sanderson

No, it was not.

Aaron

So the Reod is a natural reaction to an unnatural occurrence.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Josh Walker

And wasn’t it because there was like magical strain on the land?

Brandon Sanderson

That is certainly part of what was going on.

West Jordan signing 2012 (Dec. 6, 2012)

 

26 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Jaddeth is aon door awackning 

Source? AonDor is Aonic Dor, manipulation of the Dor through Aons, Elantrians only, nothing else. Jaddeth represents Shu-Dereth, Dakhor which is independent from AonDor.