Nydus

Sorry I'm being so slow on reply. I do intend to continue this conversation, so this is mostly a place-holder reply until I can do the research I want to do and edit it later. Thanks for clarifying what you meant by Soulcasting. It's a bit embarrassing that I forgot about that Surge, but I did. One of my plans to give a proper reply to your previous post is to look up every instance of the use of the Surge of Soulcasting in the Stormlight Archive to date (through Book Four) and see what has been revealed is possible to do with it. Unfortunately, that will take me a while. I might not get done with that until Book Five is released, but we'll see. If nothing else, I will have better educated myself about what is possible. Now, one way to test whether Rosharan gems have unique properties from gems on other worlds in the way that you described would be to see if the gems -- specifically if they have been formed on other worlds outside the Rosharan system -- are capable of holding Stormlight. As a reminder for later, I would also like to talk further about the idea of "perfect gems," as that phrase seems a bit silly to me, due to being logically inconsistent in potentially one or more ways, just based on the usual properties of gemstones and how they form. But I'm wondering if it would be better just to start a new thread about that?

Thanks for letting me know about policy against double-posting. Sorry about that. I had tried to edit my post earlier to add more info, but that was blocked by some other protocols of the website, so I did the next best thing that worked. I'll try to avoid that in the future. You're right; my idea does fundamentally require Tension and Cohesion being able to modify and/or create un-Invested gemstones. Is your basis for thinking otherwise primarily based on Soulcasters not being able to do so? Or are there additional reasons which make this seem more unlikely? My thinking is that Soulcasters may be powerful, but they are relatively simple applications of Investiture, especially if they are made of spren who willingly became such devices. Soulcasters may be strong, but they are not particularly subtle in what they do, meaning that there aren't a lot of options for customization of parameters. I think one can't really "adjust the dials" with Soulcasters so much as one just "pushes a button" to get them to perform a pre-determined, limited-scope function. I suspect that the fabrials being developed in Rhythm of War (by the artifabrians working with Navani) are already becoming more complex than Soulcasters are. Personally, barring any other as-yet-unrevealed Surge-specific or Cosmere-specific limitations, I'm currently of the opinion that perfecting un-Invested gemstones -- or even forming them out of the required base elements -- should be reasonably within the grasp of a Stoneward having Tension and Cohesion. It may not be the easiest thing ever, but it also shouldn't be the most difficult task. Now, why would I say that? I once did some simple online research on what gems are for an MMORPG I used to play because of how gems related to the game's magic. So, in order for a gem to be identified as a gem of any given type, the essential properties it must have, the gem must have one of out of six appropriate crystal systems, and the gem must also be the right color, according to gemologists. Metal atoms at various key places within the molecular structure of a gemstone are usually what give a gem the particular color that it has. Sometimes radiation also is involved in providing color, if certain atoms in the base mineral have been irradiated. If you'd like to see a table of the basic crystal systems and which gems make use of which crystal system structure, there's a handy table here at the International Gem Society (hereafter IGS) website here. According to the IGS, gems are configured into 5 different crystal systems, namely: Cubic Tetragonal Hexagonal Trigonal Orthorhombic Minor notes for clarification: A - It may be too much specific detail for the purposes of this discussion, but perhaps it's worth pointing out, as the IGS does, that some gemologists classify Trigonal as a subset of Hexagonal.) B - Also, I assume that the Cosmere has the same basic physical and material properties as our universe, except for the weird things that Investure does to it, so I'm relying on the scientific Principle of Uniformity with our material universe, unless specifically contradicted otherwise per something Sanderson has said, written, or confirmed. C - In order to keep things simple, I'm also going to assume that Smokestone is the same as "smoky quartz" from real life. Again, that could be contested, but I'm trying to do the best I can with the limited information available. Based on the name, it makes sense for now until something falsifies that assumption. Below, I've created a PNG table of the 10 Polestone Gems shown on the Spheres - Coppermind page, based on what real-world properties they have. I've had to make some educated guesses and Internet Google searches about some of the metals involved for these gems, based on the colors known to be canon for each gem used in the Stormlight Archive, since -- for example -- Zircon can be lots of different colors, but since the canon color of Zircon is listed as "deep teal," I searched for what Inclusion would make it become that color specifically. Ergo, some of this information is necessarily simplified and contestable, but hopefully it's still useful. My apologies, I tried to do it as HTML first, but the forum blocked me. So... if a Stoneward can molecularly configure a mineral into the right crystal system and swap out certain metals in the required structure or mix in the proper metallic Inclusions, then a Stoneward theoretically should be able to create gems and even perfect gems. This also assumes that a Stoneward's usage of the Surges of Tension and Cohesion permit micro-control at the molecular or atomic level, which so far at least in my opinion, doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility. If a Stoneward is already capable of making things extraordinarily hard that are normally not so or capable of reshaping rock into steps that retain their shape after the effects of the Surgebinding (which would require reshuffling of molecular bonds and configurations within the molecular structure of the stone itself), then doing the same operations to a gemstone doesn't seem out of bounds to me. It would just require refined control. I assume that at least one Stoneward was involved in the shaping of Urithuru and that the different strata of minerals which appear in the walls were intentionally placed, so some extent of micro-control like what I am suggesting must be possible. But can such control be extended to the degree of refining gemstones? It's just a matter of whether the principles involved in the Surges of Tension and Cohesion can be made to apply to that extent, because it's not a question of whether those Surges can affect the minerals involved, which are quite common in rocks, at least in our world. Rather, the challenge would be using the Surges to create the proper crystal system configurations of the appropriate elements and metals involved.

I am aware that anything with Investiture in it, as per the Order of Stonewards page on the Coppermind Wiki, is inherently resistant to the Surges of Cohesion and Tension that Stonewards wield, so any possible Stoneward Artifabrian characters would have to prepare their fabrial materials carefully in advance if they were going to use Surges to make a fabrial prototype. And then after that stage, they would only be able to use Surges to make modifications to the non-Invested parts of a fabrial.

I find myself wondering if there's anything inherent in general personality trends or value trends (especially as expressed in the Radiant Oaths specific to the particular Order in question) for the kind(s) of people who become Stonewards that would make them averse or opposed to either becoming or cooperating with artifabrians and people who have a general interest in extending the boundaries of what is known or possible with fabrial technology. Since I feel like we know so little about Stonewards at this point in time, perhaps it's too soon to come to any kind of general conclusion. The Roshar resources from the Cosmere RPG might flesh out this answer further, after that stuff is published. I think an intelligent Artifabrian who wants to expand or push the limits of fabrial technology who also commands the Surges of a Stoneward would be incredibly powerful -- possibly even world-breaking. So, I'm wondering if there's something about either "vocation" (for lack of a better term) that would make those jobs mutually exclusive or opposed to each other. After all, what Artifabrian wouldn't love to be able to do to gems what a Stoneward Radiant can do to rocks? Especially since artifabrians would be very interested in procuring a steady supply of perfect gemstones, right? If I were going to play the Cosmere TTRPG, I'd be interested in trying to create the kind of character who is both a Stoneward Radiant and an artifabrian... assuming that's even possible.

I just had another thought about the Sibling after something I read today in Rhythm of War: If resources (and I feel like the most natural reading of that is material resources, like gems) were required to make such things, then couldn't parts of the Sibling be man-made rather than spren-manifested? Surely, some of the material aspects of the Sibling are things that the Sibling decided to manifest of itself (or was requested/advised to do so). But wouldn't this RoW passage indicate that some parts of the Sibling were manufactured by humans? At the very least, it would include this particular kind of part mentioned in RoW. It would be interesting to ascertain whether there were others.

Sure, no problem. I've read Elantris, The Emperor's Soul, the first Mistborn series, the Wax and Wayne Series, Dawnshard, all the current mainline Stormlight Archive books, Ars Arcanum, and all the Secret Project books. Also Warbreaker. I am re-reading Rhythm of War right now. Unfortunately, I don't remember how the Soulcaster breaks that the Davar family was using. That is quite informative regarding godmetals. Thanks. I did not know that. Also, I must concede that my argument for the physical form of the Sibling being proof that a Stoneward can manipulate or create gems and crystals has been soundly defeated. You were right; it appears that most everything in Urithuru is a product of the Sibling and not a series of pre-constructed fabrials that the Sibling later "moved into" (like a ghost taking up residence in a machine), as I had previously supposed. As a wise man once said, "You can't get there from here." If Stonewards can create or modify gemstones in useful ways, this has yet to be verified. Perhaps I'm just chasing my own hopes.

Not sure what you mean by "godmetal" here. Also, could you explain further why crystalized spren like Soulcasters should physically manifest as a godmetal? Is this the same substance or a different one than whatever makes up the armor and weapons obtained by Radiants who've sworn the appropriate number of Ideals? Also, where does the idea come from that Soulcaster fabrials are fragile? Maybe they could be, but this is the first I've heard such a thing.

Not sure if I should start a new topic for this, but I thought I'd throw it out here since (at least in my mind) it may be related to whether Stonewards can use their Surges to create a perfect gemstone. Of course, it's one thing to say that a Stoneward could do this using a pre-existing gemstone (whether from a gemheart or from being mined out of the earth), and perhaps quite a different thing altogether (in degree, at least) to say that a Stoneward could do this using scattered base elements of silicon and lumps of other required minerals. Specifically, I want to bring to your attention the tower of Urithuru with all the gemstone fabrials (or whatever they are) embedded in it. There are various identifiable lines of mineral strata in it, some of which could be aesthetic, but others of which are clearly functional, like the mineral lines of strata used to make circuits between gemstones that house the Sibling (as well as do other things). Rabioniel, the Lady of Wishes revealed to Navani in Rhythm of War that various fabrials, in particular the Soulcasters and the Oathgates, are made not of gemstones but of crystalized spren. So, in the case of Urithuru, it's not clear whether the lines of mineral connecting the various gemstones that house the Sibling (facilitating its movement, control, and ability to observe throughout that tower) are made of crystalized spren, gemstones intentionally assembled by humans allied with the Heralds who are using Surges and other technologies, or simply natural formations of rock strata that have been connected. To me, it makes a lot more sense that Urithuru was constructed intentionally with planning aforethought. So, I suspect some of those mineral lines of strata were put there intentionally to make possible the Sibling's use and control of the tower. I'm not sure whether the precise means can be determine from things Brandon has said or written, but with how coherent the design of Urithuru appears to be, it seems likely to me that Surges were involved in the mineral and gemstone network which make the Sibling's utilities possible within Urithuru. I could be wrong. Urithuru and the Sibling's network could just be composed of a lot of crystallized spren working together, but I don't think so, because Urithuru's appearance in Shadesmar would easily confirm or falsify whether this is this case. Ergo, I think it unlikely that all the functional parts of Urithuru are just made of crystallized spren. Hence, there had to have been other means of constructing those sophisticated parts of the tower, using either technology or Surges. I can't verify this, of course, but I strongly suspect that Stonewards (and other artifabrians?) were employed, even in making the network of fabrials and physical connections required for those to operate. It's hard to know how advanced fabrial science was at the time of Urithuru and the Sibling's construction, since Raboniel seems to think humans in Navani's day know more (at least in some ways) than ancient humans did. But Raboniel also seems to know a reasonable amount about how the Sibling works and how to weaken or corrupt it by targeting specific gemstones.

Given that Stonewards can manipulate rocks (and, presumably, the minerals of which they are composed) as though such things were wet clay (or even more easily), shouldn't it be possible for a Radiant of the order of Stonewards to create perfect gems? After all, a gem is another kind of rock, too, right? A gem just happens to have the minerals and metals in it configured into certain one or more crystal lattice patterns.

I speculate that Wyrn might have been connected to Hrathen this way via an aspect of the hroden-odiv bond. Dhakor monks seem to be able to draw upon the lives of their subordinates in order to power their magical effects, so perhaps a hroden-odiv bond permits all hroden of a certain mastery to know the whereabouts of their odivs. Then again, this could just be an ability unique to Wyrn as the person positioned in the role near the very top of the heirarchy -- the pope of Shu-Dereth, as it were. Since Ryoden and Sarene are not connected to the hierarchy of Shu-Dereth (and therefore not odiv to anyone, including Wyrn), Wyrn could not be bonded to them in this way, assuming the hroden-odiv bond has the potential to provide a hroden with such knowledge and/or control over their odivs. Such thoughts are merely speculation, but such an effect like this through the hroden-odiv bond would fit thematically with Dominion, which Shu-Dereth (and, by extension, the Dhakor monasteries?) seems to reflect very keenly. Shu-Dereth is the ultimate pyramid scheme, magically and socially.