Fainlife is water based?

[WandererNearby]

I was thinking about every single instance of fainlife given in the Cosmere since we've had three new ones recently and noticed a strong similarity in their chose inhabitations: 

1. Xisis lives under the sea on Lumar which has 12 oceans (I know that they're dust oceans. More on this later).
2. Cultivation lives on Roshar which only has one major continent. 
3. Uli Da goes to Threnody which has two major continents. 
4. UToL is covered in oceans and has Sho Del. Notably, the Sho Del didn't go to Komashi and it has very small oceans relative to ones on Earth. 
5. Jan Ven (the Lost Metal Sho Del) was a sailor. 

Almost are all directly on or next to large bodies of water (or the equivalent to them). At this point, they are a little too similar to be a coincidence to me. Plus, we know that fainlife was supposed to be a "competing ecology" to the human life on Yolen which was definitely on land based on Hoid's memories of being a boy. What if fain life evolved separately in Yolish oceans then they started competing with human life on land? 

Some potential points of difficulty: 

1. Xisis lived under the Crimson Sea which doesn't much water hanging around. My guess is that he is exploring the deep sea ecology and comparing the other water-based ocean deep sea ecologies he's more familiar with. I know that modern day marine biologists would LOVE to able to examine an oceanic ecology that wasn't in a water based ocean. 
2. Maybe the Sho Del did come to Komashi but the Komashians forgot about it. This could be true but I strongly doubt it. If the fain life on Komashi got along with humanity, I think the yoki-hijo probably would have visited them and helped out which would have caused Yumi to hear about it. If the fain life didn't get along, then Yumi would have probably helped the villages she visited to have defenses which would have caused her to hear about them. Plus, we know that there is a lot of cultural holdover from Yumi's time to Painter's and they share a language. Based on the way that languages intermingle today, I'm guessing that there would have been an impact on the language from the Sho Del language and there's no indication of the cultural or linguistic impact of meeting the Sho Del.

Some other points that I find interesting: 

1. Dragons are ageless and reading over the Wikipedia article on biological immortality I mostly see water based organisms. I know that Wikipedia isn't exactly a perfect source of all knowledge and that it also discusses very old stuff but I think you get my point that most ageless or very long lived things are water based. 
2. Sho Del are pasty white and have different hair structure than humans. They wouldn't need melanin if they evolved under the water and thus wouldn't be exposed to UV light as much. The different hair structure would make sense if they evolved in a different environment than us. The different hair could be an advantage in water compared to the air. 

[Yumiya]

1 hour ago, DougTheRug said:

Plus, we know that there is a lot of cultural holdover from Yumi's time to Painter's and they share a language.

Sort of, but not really. The language has shifted enough that Yumi could only communicate due to her Connection to Painter. The other nightmares, once human again, could not talk to those trying to tend to them.
 

Quote

Chapter 41 
Nurses had given blankets to the starnge people who spoke a language that - without the bond that Yumi and Painter shared - was unintelligible to modern ears.

 

[WandererNearby]

There had to be enough of a similarity to allow for the reading of the cave graffiti. I grant that there was definitely linguistic differences due to the time passage but there must have been a bunch of similarity due to the fact that one is the source of the other. 

[Pagerunner]

Have you read the Liar of Partinel and Dragonsteel sample chapters?

Spoiler

The legend in that the skullmoss, the spreading mechanism for fainlife, came from the bodies of the dead gods. Granted, legends are untrustworthy even when they're not semi-canon unpublished excerpts, but what little we've heard of the fainlife origin doesn't have any connection to the sea.

And some of the specifics of fainlife, like dragons being able to fly and the skullmoss releasing airborne spores, don't really lend themselves to fainlife being an amphibious ecosystem.

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 hour ago, DougTheRug said:

I was thinking about every single instance of fainlife given in the Cosmere since we've had three new ones recently and noticed a strong similarity in their chose inhabitations: 

1. Xisis lives under the sea on Lumar which has 12 oceans (I know that they're dust oceans. More on this later).
2. Cultivation lives on Roshar which only has one major continent. 
3. Uli Da goes to Threnody which has two major continents. 
4. UToL is covered in oceans and has Sho Del. Notably, the Sho Del didn't go to Komashi and it has very small oceans relative to ones on Earth. 
5. Jan Ven (the Lost Metal Sho Del) was a sailor. 

Almost are all directly on or next to large bodies of water (or the equivalent to them). At this point, they are a little too similar to be a coincidence to me. Plus, we know that fainlife was supposed to be a "competing ecology" to the human life on Yolen which was definitely on land based on Hoid's memories of being a boy. What if fain life evolved separately in Yolish oceans then they started competing with human life on land? 

Some potential points of difficulty: 

1. Xisis lived under the Crimson Sea which doesn't much water hanging around. My guess is that he is exploring the deep sea ecology and comparing the other water-based ocean deep sea ecologies he's more familiar with. I know that modern day marine biologists would LOVE to able to examine an oceanic ecology that wasn't in a water based ocean. 
2. Maybe the Sho Del did come to Komashi but the Komashians forgot about it. This could be true but I strongly doubt it. If the fain life on Komashi got along with humanity, I think the yoki-hijo probably would have visited them and helped out which would have caused Yumi to hear about it. If the fain life didn't get along, then Yumi would have probably helped the villages she visited to have defenses which would have caused her to hear about them. Plus, we know that there is a lot of cultural holdover from Yumi's time to Painter's and they share a language. Based on the way that languages intermingle today, I'm guessing that there would have been an impact on the language from the Sho Del language and there's no indication of the cultural or linguistic impact of meeting the Sho Del.

Some other points that I find interesting: 

1. Dragons are ageless and reading over the Wikipedia article on biological immortality I mostly see water based organisms. I know that Wikipedia isn't exactly a perfect source of all knowledge and that it also discusses very old stuff but I think you get my point that most ageless or very long lived things are water based. 
2. Sho Del are pasty white and have different hair structure than humans. They wouldn't need melanin if they evolved under the water and thus wouldn't be exposed to UV light as much. The different hair structure would make sense if they evolved in a different environment than us. The different hair could be an advantage in water compared to the air. 

That's a really interesting theory, I like it a lot. I don't think that this is the case just based on the wider direction the narrative seems to be headed toward (and also that in some unpublished novels, there are things like Fain deer with six legs, although that can be explained by it having evolved after Fainlife leaves the ocean. There's also the Skullmoss, but aquatic algae do exist, so it's not too much of a stretch, especially given time to evolve. Besides, those are all unpublished, so Brandon may have changed his mind), but the theory is quite well put together, there are a lot of things about Fainlife that would make sense in this context, and there's nothing directly contradicting any of it, so far as I can tell. I will say that the hair would cause a lot of drag when swimming, more so than even human hair would, so the wide, grass-like hair is unlikely to have come from a water-based species, but again, it could have evolved afterward. Also, they don't appear to have any sort of gills, but that's less of a problem given that they could have developed a way of breathing underwater that is unfamiliar to us.

26 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

Sort of, but not really. The language has shifted enough that Yumi could only communicate due to her Connection to Painter. The other nightmares, once human again, could not talk to those trying to tend to them.

 

20 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

There had to be enough of a similarity to allow for the reading of the cave graffiti. I grant that there was definitely linguistic differences due to the time passage but there must have been a bunch of similarity due to the fact that one is the source of the other. 

Linguistics is weird. It could have just been largely the same language, but the verbal form of it has drifted enough from the original language that the original Torish accent and/or words are too alien for the modern-day Komashians to understand. We don't see any of the Nightmares try to read or write, and neither do the Painters. Had the former Nightmares written something down, it could be possible that the Painters would have understood. Languages change in some part due to random chance, it's possible that even without Connection they could figure the original Torish out with a bit more effort and qualified Linguists. However, it's equally possible that they would be completely unrecognizable. We just don't know, though the evidence leans towards divergent. Bear in mind that the account written on the cave was found only a hundred years after the activation of the Father Machine, whereas the story takes place 1700 years later. The language may not have changed enough at that point for the message to be unreadable, though it may be so now.

[Yumiya]

13 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Languages change in some part due to random chance, it's possible that even without Connection they could figure the original Torish out with a bit more effort and qualified Linguists. However, it's equally possible that they would be completely unrecognizable.

Yumi comments on this a bit. The writting is familiar but not exact. It would probably be like us trying to read some very old English documents. Nigh impossible for the layman. Try if you are interested. 

Quote

Our languages are close. Even without the strange gift of the spirits that lets us understand one another, I can see it in the familiar way your writing looks.

Regardless, a lot has been lost from Yumi's time to Painter's time. Like what the sun is and how it looks. Or that the earth was very hot when spirits were simply living in the earth instead of existing as hion lines. Or what yoki-hijos are. It would be very plausable for the Sho-Del to have had contact with Komashi and Yumi never known (being super cloistered and rather young) and the nomads of the time forgetting about it (assuming they themselves ever knew) in the wake of the near end of the world. 

[WandererNearby]

27 minutes ago, Yumiya said:

Regardless, a lot has been lost from Yumi's time to Painter's time. Like what the sun is and how it looks. Or that the earth was very hot when spirits were simply living in the earth instead of existing as hion lines. Or what yoki-hijos are. It would be very plausable for the Sho-Del to have had contact with Komashi and Yumi never known (being super cloistered and rather young) and the nomads of the time forgetting about it (assuming they themselves ever knew) in the wake of the near end of the world. 

You're right that a lot has been lost. However, Yumi did travel all around and, apparently, visited one village every day or so. That's a lot of villages. Plus the villagers tell her what they want and why they want it. I personally find a bit of a stretch to suggest that she wouldn't have come across something destroyed by the war with the fainlife, something to help fight the fainlife, a Sho Del asking for something, and/or a Sho Del specific item requesting by a human. Then again, maybe the Sho Del just didn't arrive until after the machine was set up and decided just avoid the planet covered in sentient nightmares in favor of sunbathing in a canoe. 

 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

... there are things like Fain deer with six legs, although that can be explained by it having evolved after Fainlife leaves the ocean. There's also the Skullmoss, but aquatic algae do exist, so it's not too much of a stretch, especially given time to evolve. Besides, those are all unpublished, so Brandon may have changed his mind

I don't think this is hard to explain at all. The whole premise of the conflict is two ecologies colliding so fain land based organisms would be required as a part of it and could be a result of experimentation of the dragons and/or Sho Del. We know that dragons are interested in ecology research, very powerful magically, and view themselves as deities so it seems like they have the means, opportunity, and could have the motive. 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I will say that the hair would cause a lot of drag when swimming, more so than even human hair would, so the wide, grass-like hair is unlikely to have come from a water-based species, but again, it could have evolved afterward. Also, they don't appear to have any sort of gills, but that's less of a problem given that they could have developed a way of breathing underwater that is unfamiliar to us.

. I agree that the drag is a weird thing. Maybe the hair is more of a sensory structure? I'm not sure how it would fit. The biggest question is the lack of gills mentioned. I doubt the hair would be the gills considering it would be a terrible design to have important organs just floating around outside of the body instead of in the middle with everything else. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

 

2 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

I don't think this is hard to explain at all. The whole premise of the conflict is two ecologies colliding so fain land based organisms would be required as a part of it and could be a result of experimentation of the dragons and/or Sho Del. We know that dragons are interested in ecology research, very powerful magically, and view themselves as deities so it seems like they have the means, opportunity, and could have the motive.

I'm pretty sure the dragons don't view themselves as gods, although they were worshipped that way. I suppose that they could indeed be dragon experiments, but if they are aquatic, why bother with boats when they can just live underwater?

2 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

. I agree that the drag is a weird thing. Maybe the hair is more of a sensory structure? I'm not sure how it would fit. The biggest question is the lack of gills mentioned. I doubt the hair would be the gills considering it would be a terrible design to have important organs just floating around outside of the body instead of in the middle with everything else. 

Well, Axolotls have gills just hanging off from their heads, so it's not like it's inconceivable. And they could breathe through their skin too, like frogs, axolotls (again), and even humans (though the amount we get from our skin is negligible). It's not something that directly contradicts the theory, but if it was something planned and intentional, it would be either explicitly called out to just make it known, and if it's meant to be a secret, it still probably would have been referenced in some capacity as foreshadowing.

[WandererNearby]

8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I'm pretty sure the dragons don't view themselves as gods

Dragons view themselves as deities per this WOB: 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/515/#e16142

8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I suppose that they could indeed be dragon experiments, but if they are aquatic, why bother with boats when they can just live underwater?

Maybe what the Komashians thought were boats were reverse submarines or "supermarines" or maybe they just need something above water. I.e. maybe they like freshly grown tomatoes and need to use barges to grow them. Alternatively, their species now can go back and forth between land and water so a fleet of ships on a water world would allow the best of both ecologies. 
 

That's neat about the gills of the axolotls!! Plus they can be very pasty and have rudimentary lungs. It looks more and more like Sho Del are inspired by them. 

https://axolotlnerd.com/how-do-axolotls-breathe/

Edit to prevent double posting: 

@Pagerunner, I just realized that I forgot to respond to you. I'm sorry. 

The short answer is that I don't weight world building from a 20 year old, non-canon source very highly. I also don't think it's a very persuasive piece of evidence against the theory because the effectiveness of skullmoss, if anything, suggests that it could have been altered. Plus, the fact that the legend itself suggests it comes from deities which is also would make sense if the dragons made it. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by DougTheRug
prevent double posting

[+Oltux72]

16 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

Almost are all directly on or next to large bodies of water (or the equivalent to them). At this point, they are a little too similar to be a coincidence to me. Plus, we know that fainlife was supposed to be a "competing ecology" to the human life on Yolen which was definitely on land based on Hoid's memories of being a boy. What if fain life evolved separately in Yolish oceans then they started competing with human life on land?

40% of all humans currently are living within 100km of a coast. The more recently settled by an industrialized culture a continent is, the more this applies. Oceans are just extremely useful.

[WandererNearby]

@Oltux72, you're absolutely right and it's one of the biggest potential problems with this. It could be a coincidence because of that fact and because Sho Dels' abilities in navigation, and the resulting reputation, would allow them to charge a lot more for their services giving them a stronger incentive to be sailors. However, I think the fact that they look an awful lot like axolotls, didn't land on Komashi when they could have, and the story of Yolen being two competing ecologies suggest differently to me. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

14 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

Dragons view themselves as deities per this WOB: 

I stand corrected, I was thinking of that exact WoB, I just misremembered and thought it said that they were worshipped as Deities but didn't view themselves that way.

[+Oltux72]

On 6.7.2023 at 6:10 PM, DougTheRug said:

@Oltux72, you're absolutely right and it's one of the biggest potential problems with this. It could be a coincidence because of that fact and because Sho Dels' abilities in navigation, and the resulting reputation, would allow them to charge a lot more for their services giving them a stronger incentive to be sailors. However, I think the fact that they look an awful lot like axolotls, didn't land on Komashi when they could have, and the story of Yolen being two competing ecologies suggest differently to me. 

They are white as they are fayn, but so are the fayn plants. And they do not look like an axolotl (leaving aside the basic validity of using resemblance to a specific animal for that)

That they did not go to Komashi can be just as easily explained by the Shroud. That the sttlement of UTol predates that is plainly just a guess. Alternatively it does predate it and they divided the star system up by species and humans drew the shorter straw. The notion that humans would, if they had to pick, choose Komashi over UTol is untenable.

[Pagerunner]

I've been catching up on WoBs from the past few months, and a recent one is pretty relevant to this conversation:

Quote

Christopher Williams

How do you come up with interesting new races? When do you know that you should consider creating a new race, rather than using one that people are familiar with?

Brandon Sanderson

I do use one of the standard races (which is dragons). They haven't appeared a lot in my books, but I just think dragons are cool. And so, I actually built one of the ecologies of my early books that didn't get published around the idea of "well, what would lead to dragons? And what other evolutionary strains would be on a planet that had dragons," and kind of built all around that.

Live with Brandon Sanderson and Wesley Chu (May 18, 2023)

So the out-of-universe inspiration for fain life has always been the sort of natural ecosystem that would produce dragons, so I think that discourages the idea of Yolish fainlife we've in unpublished works as being a bioengineered invasive tactic. For dragons specifically, I have a really hard time seeing an underwater ecology as leading to "standard" draconic powers; you mention biological immortality as a tenuous connection, but stuff like flight or fire breathing are more at odds with an aquatic origin.

[Argenti]

21 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

fire breathing

Do they breath fire in the cosmere?

[Firesong]

2 hours ago, Argenti said:

Do they breath fire in the cosmere?

I don't remember that in Tress or RoW, and in terms of WoBs

Quote

LizBusby

They were talking about, on the cosmere podcast, if cosmere dragons can breathe fire?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. They can fly. So they--

LizBusby

Okay. That's good to know. I was just thinking, Frost like, doesn't sound very fiery to me. It sounds icy to me.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm. *significant look* RAFO on that. You won't even find that in Dragonsteel, the old one, if you read it. It doesn't say.

 

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

So, I don't think we know. But I may have forgotten something. 

Edit: I did a word check for Fire in Tress, found nothing on Xisis breathing fire. So it is not shown in Tress. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Firesong

[Pagerunner]

We don't know for sure if Yolish dragons can breathe fire or not, no. But the "standard" Western dragon can, and other common tropes about dragons give them different breath powers, so I fully expect we'll see something along those lines eventually, since dragons are the one area of worldbuilding that Brandon is intentionally leaning towards the traditional.

[Firesong]

13 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

We don't know for sure if Yolish dragons can breathe fire or not, no. But the "standard" Western dragon can, and other common tropes about dragons give them different breath powers, so I fully expect we'll see something along those lines eventually, since dragons are the one area of worldbuilding that Brandon is intentionally leaning towards the traditional.

One thing I do wonder is, how they would fly. Brandon has been intentionally looking towards physics for limitations, and thinking of how to bypass it. Maybe they can reduce their own weight, like the ecology of Torio. That would be able to get around the fact that they would have too much mass for that wingspan. Actually, I feel somebody should definitely ask Brandon about that.  

[Werewolff Studios]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

One thing I do wonder is, how they would fly. Brandon has been intentionally looking towards physics for limitations, and thinking of how to bypass it. Maybe they can reduce their own weight, like the ecology of Torio. That would be able to get around the fact that they would have too much mass for that wingspan. Actually, I feel somebody should definitely ask Brandon about that.  

They might also act similar to the massive fauna on Roshar (greatshells etc) who bond with mandra/ luckspren. Maybe Dragons have a bond with something similar from the Yolish Cognitive Realm? Pure speculation though - I don't think we've seen any evidence of that.

[WandererNearby]

On 7/8/2023 at 5:59 PM, Pagerunner said:

So the out-of-universe inspiration for fain life has always been the sort of natural ecosystem that would produce dragons, so I think that discourages the idea of Yolish fainlife we've in unpublished works as being a bioengineered invasive tactic. For dragons specifically, I have a really hard time seeing an underwater ecology as leading to "standard" draconic powers; you mention biological immortality as a tenuous connection, but stuff like flight or fire breathing are more at odds with an aquatic origin.

I think the way around this for the theory is that dragons are ageless shapeshifters. They could give themselves all sorts of abilities under those circumstances and could even (maybe) change their own reproduction so that their offspring naturally have flight, fire-breathing, and etc. It's also a little difficult to believe that the ecology that they currently live in is the same one that they evolved in. It's pretty reasonable to assume a lot of evolutionary drift occurs during the lifetime of one dragon and much more happening in the drift within three or four generations. It would be a better question to ask what ecology produced dragons tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago and how the dragons may have guided it and themselves since then. 

On 7/8/2023 at 6:21 AM, Oltux72 said:

They are white as they are fayn, but so are the fayn plants. And they do not look like an axolotl (leaving aside the basic validity of using resemblance to a specific animal for that)

I think that looking at the first images coming up on my Duck Duck Go search for axolotls will illustrate my point. They are ethereal and alien looking. They have gill structures that are flat looking and vaguely resemble hair that is much broader than human hair. They are pale with creepy eyes. This close enough (for me) to the description of Sho Del in Lost Metal Epilogues: 

"[Jan Ven] was a creature with four arms, chalk-white skin, and large almost reptilian eyes. Her white hair was wide, like blades of grass."

Quote

That they did not go to Komashi can be just as easily explained by the Shroud. That the sttlement of UTol predates that is plainly just a guess. Alternatively it does predate it and they divided the star system up by species and humans drew the shorter straw. The notion that humans would, if they had to pick, choose Komashi over UTol is untenable.

This is also a guess that the Sho Del get along with humans enough to split up the planets like that despite the fact we know of fain life is that it is competitive with human based ecology. We don't know much about the history of inhabitation of the system because so little was transmitted to Yumi and Nikaro but, since they were hostile to another in the past, I'd rather assume that they were at least uncivil with one another now/then. 

I don't think the Shroud is a good enough answer because Nikaro described his job as mostly mundane early on to Yumi. That suggests that the Sho Del could have figured it out too, especially if they got along with humans well enough to split up the planetary systems like that. However, it's a very very difficult problem to add oceans if you need them to live or thrive and one that isn't really needed since there's a water world nearby. Considering that we have no evidence of the Sho Del moving onto Komashi, I think that a very very large problem is a better explanation compared to just a large problem. 

I have no idea why humanity chose Komashi. Maybe they arrived later than the Sho Del and the Sho Del had already colonized UTol? Maybe it's a Skyward situation and they just needed a planet? No clue. 

[Firesong]

12 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

I think the way around this for the theory is that dragons are ageless shapeshifters. They could give themselves all sorts of abilities under those circumstances and could even (maybe) change their own reproduction so that their offspring naturally have flight, fire-breathing, and etc. It's also a little difficult to believe that the ecology that they currently live in is the same one that they evolved in. It's pretty reasonable to assume a lot of evolutionary drift occurs during the lifetime of one dragon and much more happening in the drift within three or four generations. It would be a better question to ask what ecology produced dragons tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago and how the dragons may have guided it and themselves since then. 

I think that looking at the first images coming up on my Duck Duck Go search for axolotls will illustrate my point. They are ethereal and alien looking. They have gill structures that are flat looking and vaguely resemble hair that is much broader than human hair. They are pale with creepy eyes. This close enough (for me) to the description of Sho Del in Lost Metal Epilogues: 

"[Jan Ven] was a creature with four arms, chalk-white skin, and large almost reptilian eyes. Her white hair was wide, like blades of grass."

This is also a guess that the Sho Del get along with humans enough to split up the planets like that despite the fact we know of fain life is that it is competitive with human based ecology. We don't know much about the history of inhabitation of the system because so little was transmitted to Yumi and Nikaro but, since they were hostile to another in the past, I'd rather assume that they were at least uncivil with one another now/then. 

I don't think the Shroud is a good enough answer because Nikaro described his job as mostly mundane early on to Yumi. That suggests that the Sho Del could have figured it out too, especially if they got along with humans well enough to split up the planetary systems like that. However, it's a very very difficult problem to add oceans if you need them to live or thrive and one that isn't really needed since there's a water world nearby. Considering that we have no evidence of the Sho Del moving onto Komashi, I think that a very very large problem is a better explanation compared to just a large problem. 

I have no idea why humanity chose Komashi. Maybe they arrived later than the Sho Del and the Sho Del had already colonized UTol? Maybe it's a Skyward situation and they just needed a planet? No clue. 

I don't really see how they look like Axolotls, personally, at least not in how I imagine them. I think of Sho Del having a lot of hair, which is just flat and broad like grass (as it is described), not really the same as axolotl gills. 

[+Oltux72]

Let me put it this way. You can look at crocodiles and show that they are adapted to water. However, if you wish to transfer that result to tetrapods in general, you cannot do so.

The Sho-Del are one species among numerous. There is no point in showing that they are adapted to watery environments, when you wish to talk about faynlife in general.